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Do you want to turn PVP into a skill-less Call of Duty game for six months?
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PizzaCat82✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People hate proc sets because they would rather have button mashing spammables and animation cancelling determine fights,1 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭PizzaCat82 wrote: »People hate proc sets because they would rather have button mashing spammables and animation cancelling determine fights,
Yeah, it's kind of why people in Shooters hate aim bots, what are they thinking, am I right? It takes loads of skill to download a cheat program and kill people, instead of relying on your ability to actually aim and hit what you're aiming at. How dare those people believe that manually controlling what your character is doing in a competitive game mode requires more skill than relying on gear/third party programs.
/s6 -
Olen_Mikko✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dude. NOW playing pvp actually requires skill, once you can't rely on proc sets helping you out.
This is actually a good change.NB enthusiastic:- Woodhippie stamblade - DW hard-hitter / PvE
- Know-it-all elf Magblade - Healer / PvE & PvP
- Hate-them-all elf Magblade - Destrostaff AoE monster / PvE
- Cyrodiil-Refugee stamblade - Stamina Tank / PvE
Go dominion or go home
Nightblade-Hipster. I played Nightblade before it was cool - from 1.5 onwards.6 -
PizzaCat82✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭robertthebard wrote: »PizzaCat82 wrote: »People hate proc sets because they would rather have button mashing spammables and animation cancelling determine fights,
Yeah, it's kind of why people in Shooters hate aim bots, what are they thinking, am I right? It takes loads of skill to download a cheat program and kill people, instead of relying on your ability to actually aim and hit what you're aiming at. How dare those people believe that manually controlling what your character is doing in a competitive game mode requires more skill than relying on gear/third party programs.
/s
It takes loads of skill to press more buttons than the other guy. Or hope lag favors you over him.
Especially in a MMORPG.1 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭PizzaCat82 wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »PizzaCat82 wrote: »People hate proc sets because they would rather have button mashing spammables and animation cancelling determine fights,
Yeah, it's kind of why people in Shooters hate aim bots, what are they thinking, am I right? It takes loads of skill to download a cheat program and kill people, instead of relying on your ability to actually aim and hit what you're aiming at. How dare those people believe that manually controlling what your character is doing in a competitive game mode requires more skill than relying on gear/third party programs.
/s
It takes loads of skill to press more buttons than the other guy. Or hope lag favors you over him.
Especially in a MMORPG.
I just have to wonder, how did people ever manage to PvP w/out proc sets? I mean, it's not like we've had them since the beginning. Maybe PvP was a lie, back then, like cake?6 -
SshadowSscale✭✭✭✭✭PizzaCat82 wrote: »People hate proc sets because they would rather have button mashing spammables and animation cancelling determine fights,
If this was so skill less and op why is everyone in pvp running proc tanks?1 -
PizzaCat82✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SshadowSscale wrote: »PizzaCat82 wrote: »People hate proc sets because they would rather have button mashing spammables and animation cancelling determine fights,
If this was so skill less and op why is everyone in pvp running proc tanks?
Because not everyone wants to mash tons of buttons and hope that lag favors them?
Because PVP is about winning, and you can mash buttons and hope lag works AND have proc sets to get an edge?
This game shouldn't be like FPSs, or league of legends, or fighting games, where the only way to win is to hope he messes up his combo and you don't mess up yours.
Because while it does take more "skill" to make sure that stuff works, It basically dumbs down the rest of the game.1 -
Trinket61✭✭PVP has been the same for 25 years across all platforms across all games.
All other things being equal.
The player that gets the stun in first wins.
The player with the lowest ping wins.
[snip]
And the stuns? well i have a suggestion......
[Edited to remove Bashing]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on March 15, 2021 4:50PM0 -
PizzaCat82✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭PVP has been the same for 25 years across all platforms across all games.
All other things being equal.
The player that gets the stun in first wins.
The player with the lowest ping wins.
[snip]
And the stuns? well i have a suggestion......
PVP has 3 major parts:
1. Prepping for PVP
2. Taking action in PVP
3. Reacting to action in PVP
ZOS took out 90% of step 1.
They basically turned a game of PVP from chess to checkers.
Now, people can min-max the few sets that are still allowed and all have the same CP, and all the same pots.
And we still have lag, and people will be bored as hell in a few months when NO new sets are allowed in PVP.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on March 15, 2021 4:50PM2 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PizzaCat82 wrote: »People hate proc sets because they would rather have button mashing spammables and animation cancelling determine fights,
They would prefer their button presses to matter.. yes 👍3 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PizzaCat82 wrote: »PVP has been the same for 25 years across all platforms across all games.
All other things being equal.
The player that gets the stun in first wins.
The player with the lowest ping wins.
Shame ZoS doesnt have enough intelligence to make ping a non issue with a 1 second cooldown.
And the stuns? well i have a suggestion......
PVP has 3 major parts:
1. Prepping for PVP
2. Taking action in PVP
3. Reacting to action in PVP
ZOS took out 90% of step 1.
They basically turned a game of PVP from chess to checkers.
Now, people can min-max the few sets that are still allowed and all have the same CP, and all the same pots.
And we still have lag, and people will be bored as hell in a few months when NO new sets are allowed in PVP.
Prepping for PVP is like setting up the chess board. It really is irrelevant to actually playing the game of chess. Whether there are only 19 sets or 500 sets, you still have to use the same sets as everyone else to be competitive. The 500 sets with procs active is just an illusion of choice.
And the 19 sets force you to actually only do damage as a result of the skill you hit, and not burst or dots on cooldown from light attacking.1 -
PizzaCat82✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »PizzaCat82 wrote: »People hate proc sets because they would rather have button mashing spammables and animation cancelling determine fights,
They would prefer their button presses to matter.. yes 👍
I would rather not have to replace my controller every time a new campaign came out.
Not to mention that potions don't work half the time you press them (even when the sounds triggers)
1 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@FrankonPC I was watching King of games earlier and he made a joke about someone playing a proc build on a guitar hero controller. I sense a video idea? 😂🤞common man give the people what they want!0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PizzaCat82 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »PizzaCat82 wrote: »People hate proc sets because they would rather have button mashing spammables and animation cancelling determine fights,
They would prefer their button presses to matter.. yes 👍
I would rather not have to replace my controller every time a new campaign came out.
Not to mention that potions don't work half the time you press them (even when the sounds triggers)
Why would you replace your controller every patch? To match the DLC colours? Seems like an expensive habit 🤔
I don't think the game should be balanced on performance. It is a sad reality that we sometimes have to build for performance, but it is a separate issue IMO.1 -
PizzaCat82✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »PizzaCat82 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »PizzaCat82 wrote: »People hate proc sets because they would rather have button mashing spammables and animation cancelling determine fights,
They would prefer their button presses to matter.. yes 👍
I would rather not have to replace my controller every time a new campaign came out.
Not to mention that potions don't work half the time you press them (even when the sounds triggers)
Why would you replace your controller every patch? To match the DLC colours? Seems like an expensive habit 🤔
I don't think the game should be balanced on performance. It is a sad reality that we sometimes have to build for performance, but it is a separate issue IMO.
There are a lot of separate issues that were solved by proc sets
Performance based pvp.
Class disparities
Group dynamics
Line of Sight
Armor disparities
etc.1 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PizzaCat82 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »PizzaCat82 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »PizzaCat82 wrote: »People hate proc sets because they would rather have button mashing spammables and animation cancelling determine fights,
They would prefer their button presses to matter.. yes 👍
I would rather not have to replace my controller every time a new campaign came out.
Not to mention that potions don't work half the time you press them (even when the sounds triggers)
Why would you replace your controller every patch? To match the DLC colours? Seems like an expensive habit 🤔
I don't think the game should be balanced on performance. It is a sad reality that we sometimes have to build for performance, but it is a separate issue IMO.
There are a lot of separate issues that were solved by proc sets
Performance based pvp.
Class disparities
Group dynamics
Line of Sight
Armor disparities
etc.
They didn't help performance, but they proc when your skills didn't work. Which in another sense distorts the true state of the game.
Classes will never be balanced while they are reliant on a particular set to fulfil what they're lacking.
I don't understand how they help groups apart from ballgroups and troll groups. They also help zergs as it is a heft boost to their light attack. Small scale groups coordinate burst, procs would be detrimental to this.
They don't help you line of sight they hurt people despite them moving to line of sight. It further reinforces the idea that they require minimal input.
How do they help armor disparities?0 -
Neiska✭✭✭✭Disclaimer: Not a pvper here, and after reading the various pvp threads I am determined to never set foot in Cyrodil. That said however,
Honest question here, as an outsider looking in. If there are things such as "ball groups" (where I assume its a team just steamrolling anyone they come across?) and so on, why would proc sets matter? Unless its 1 on 1, or is it something else? I mean the topics went from "tanks op in pvp" to "2h stam op in pvp" and so on. Isnt this kind of a round-robin or flavor of the month/patch?
I mean, with all that, it shouldn't be a surprise at all things are unbalanced, correct? Or is there something I am missing?
Again, no hate against the pvpers! You guys enjoy your game as you like! It's just not my cup of tea, thats all. But the discussions sure do seem to be all over the place.0 -
PizzaCat82✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »PizzaCat82 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »PizzaCat82 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »PizzaCat82 wrote: »People hate proc sets because they would rather have button mashing spammables and animation cancelling determine fights,
They would prefer their button presses to matter.. yes 👍
I would rather not have to replace my controller every time a new campaign came out.
Not to mention that potions don't work half the time you press them (even when the sounds triggers)
Why would you replace your controller every patch? To match the DLC colours? Seems like an expensive habit 🤔
I don't think the game should be balanced on performance. It is a sad reality that we sometimes have to build for performance, but it is a separate issue IMO.
There are a lot of separate issues that were solved by proc sets
Performance based pvp.
Class disparities
Group dynamics
Line of Sight
Armor disparities
etc.
They didn't help performance, but they proc when your skills didn't work. Which in another sense distorts the true state of the game.
Classes will never be balanced while they are reliant on a particular set to fulfil what they're lacking.
I don't understand how they help groups apart from ballgroups and troll groups. They also help zergs as it is a heft boost to their light attack. Small scale groups coordinate burst, procs would be detrimental to this.
They don't help you line of sight they hurt people despite them moving to line of sight. It further reinforces the idea that they require minimal input.
How do they help armor disparities?
Less input required for damage means more likely that damage will go off and be successful. If someone has to time Shards/snipe, a closer, and a bunch of other skills for burst + be ready with heals/shields/roll/dodge/block that's going to be highly lag or performance dependent.
Classes still aren't balanced, and wouldn't be, but the reliance on class skills to get kills or heal is reduced as people can make up the difference on proc sets.
Group dynamics such as getting attacked by more people or attacking less. I can go into a BG now and fight 4-6 people and simply not know if I can manage to kill all of them before I die. Some days I can't kill 1, some days I kill everyone. Makes for a more exciting battle if there's more unknowns and the answer to zergs isn't always "get a bigger zerg"
Line of Sight - Its what makes most of the tower chasers chase for so long is that people could run up and down stairs until they got their heals/sheilds off again, with procs you didn't have to worry about always being able to be in direct contact and it helped take care of these annoying, useless troll builds.
Armor - They simply provide burst to get through heavy armor builds, not always, but definitely helped. If you think people are going to stop wearing heavy armor just because they don't have proc sets anymore, well I know you don't think that so I wont even bother.
1 -
SimonBelmont✭✭✭For reference: proc = "programmed random occurrences"
An effect which is triggered (by anything other than an RNG), is not actually a proc.
And yes, if the effect is triggered by something that the player has a degree of control over, it could be called a "skill". Or, more accurately: an ability; derived from the players choice of equipment, rather than their default character abilities. A players choice of gear would of course fall under the heading of "strategy".
Most of the sets in this game which, for whatever reason, cause PvP related arguments, are not "proc"s at all.Edited by SimonBelmont on March 15, 2021 8:04PM0 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭SimonBelmont wrote: »For reference: proc = "programmed random occurrences"
An effect which is triggered (by anything other than an RNG), is not actually a proc.
And yes, if the effect is triggered by something that the player has a degree of control over, it could be called a "skill". Or, more accurately: an ability; derived from the players choice of equipment, rather than their default character abilities. A players choice of gear would of course fall under the heading of "strategy".
Most of the sets in this game which, for whatever reason, cause PvP related arguments, are not "proc"s at all.
Nice try? The "programmed random occurrence" is the effect triggering on whatever causes the effect to trigger. If that's going afk and getting attacked, then it's going afk and being attacked. If it's pouring boiling oil on invaders at the gate, then it's pouring boiling oil. You see, you shoot your argument in the foot with the effect being triggered. If my basic attack is an arrow, and I get a bomb with an x meter radius instead, that's a proc.0 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Disclaimer: Not a pvper here, and after reading the various pvp threads I am determined to never set foot in Cyrodil. That said however,
Honest question here, as an outsider looking in. If there are things such as "ball groups" (where I assume its a team just steamrolling anyone they come across?) and so on, why would proc sets matter? Unless its 1 on 1, or is it something else? I mean the topics went from "tanks op in pvp" to "2h stam op in pvp" and so on. Isnt this kind of a round-robin or flavor of the month/patch?
I mean, with all that, it shouldn't be a surprise at all things are unbalanced, correct? Or is there something I am missing?
Again, no hate against the pvpers! You guys enjoy your game as you like! It's just not my cup of tea, thats all. But the discussions sure do seem to be all over the place.
Yes, you could set your watch by it if you wanted.
Ball groups really arent an issue of balance though, they're just a better zerg.
PvP, in particular Cyrodiil, can be fun. Lots. And frustrating as well. You could on the other hand adapt the nerfmire bingo we had a while back and apply it to PvP nerf requests and have a fun little mini-game.0 -
SimonBelmont✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »SimonBelmont wrote: »For reference: proc = "programmed random occurrences"
An effect which is triggered (by anything other than an RNG), is not actually a proc.
And yes, if the effect is triggered by something that the player has a degree of control over, it could be called a "skill". Or, more accurately: an ability; derived from the players choice of equipment, rather than their default character abilities. A players choice of gear would of course fall under the heading of "strategy".
Most of the sets in this game which, for whatever reason, cause PvP related arguments, are not "proc"s at all.
Nice try? The "programmed random occurrence" is the effect triggering on whatever causes the effect to trigger. If that's going afk and getting attacked, then it's going afk and being attacked. If it's pouring boiling oil on invaders at the gate, then it's pouring boiling oil. You see, you shoot your argument in the foot with the effect being triggered. If my basic attack is an arrow, and I get a bomb with an x meter radius instead, that's a proc.
If you want to redefine proc to mean that, I certainly can't stop you... No more than I could stop you from being wrong about anything else, I guess. I was referring to the literal meaning, not the version in your imagination.
If aught but RNG (with allowances made for throttling) determines an effect's occurrence, it is not a "proc". There are proc sets in this game. But most of the sets people rave about (with regard to PvP) would not qualify as such.
Weapon glyphes are also good examples of procs...
Unleashed; for example, does not have a proc. Its effect will only ever be the direct result of the player wearing it having used (and connected with) one of the class or weapon skills which can trigger it. That is pretty much the opposite of a "proc".
Furthermore, most of the sets people rave about, have a specific window of time either before the effect manifests, or concludes. Six-to-ten seconds is most common. That's an awfully long time their enemy has to use any form of cleanse to either exempt themselves from, or cut-short that effect.
If you don't like being affected by sets with strong effects, the appropriate response would be to counter them; not run crying to mommy-Zeni, like a toddler with a skinned knee - while somehow also preaching your gospel of "skill". Which, I'm sure by only pure coincidence...favors your preferred method of game-play.
If you are so "skilled", how is it you've managed to overlook the numerous ways to counter set-effects?
There are six slots per bar in this game. That is like, "steadystreamofdrool" simplistic... To, on top of that, limit our choice of fully functional sets to 18, 19, or whatever it is,...at what point will PvP be entirely decision-free?
I mean, when can we finally see the awesome level of skill these full-tantrum, purple-faced, snot-streaming-from-nostrils, skinned-knee-toddlers possess? I'm ready to have my mind blown by their god-like PvP skill! I need that in my life! ...Their pudgy wittle fists just hammering up and down on the garage door opener that's replaced their keyboard. Aren't they pweshuss!? Quick, disable more sets, so we can see even more SKILL!!!Edited by SimonBelmont on March 16, 2021 2:39AM1 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭SimonBelmont wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »SimonBelmont wrote: »For reference: proc = "programmed random occurrences"
An effect which is triggered (by anything other than an RNG), is not actually a proc.
And yes, if the effect is triggered by something that the player has a degree of control over, it could be called a "skill". Or, more accurately: an ability; derived from the players choice of equipment, rather than their default character abilities. A players choice of gear would of course fall under the heading of "strategy".
Most of the sets in this game which, for whatever reason, cause PvP related arguments, are not "proc"s at all.
Nice try? The "programmed random occurrence" is the effect triggering on whatever causes the effect to trigger. If that's going afk and getting attacked, then it's going afk and being attacked. If it's pouring boiling oil on invaders at the gate, then it's pouring boiling oil. You see, you shoot your argument in the foot with the effect being triggered. If my basic attack is an arrow, and I get a bomb with an x meter radius instead, that's a proc.
If you want to redefine proc to mean that, I certainly can't stop you... No more than I could stop you from being wrong about anything else, I guess. I was referring to the literal meaning, not the version in your imagination.
If aught but RNG (with allowances made for throttling) determines an effect's occurrence, it is not a "proc". There are proc sets in this game. But most of the sets people rave about (with regard to PvP) would not qualify as such.
Weapon glyphes are also good examples of procs...
Unleashed; for example, does not have a proc. Its effect will only ever be the direct result of the player wearing it having used (and connected with) one of the class or weapon skills which can trigger it. That is pretty much the opposite of a "proc".
Furthermore, most of the sets people rave about, have a specific window of time either before the effect manifests, or concludes. Six-to-ten seconds is most common. That's an awfully long time their enemy has to use any form of cleanse to either exempt themselves from, or cut-short that effect.
If you don't like being affected by sets with strong effects, the appropriate response would be to counter them; not run crying to mommy-Zeni, like a toddler with a skinned knee - while somehow also preaching your gospel of "skill". Which, I'm sure by only pure coincidence...favors your preferred method of game-play.
If you are so "skilled", how is it you've managed to overlook the numerous ways to counter set-effects?
There are six slots per bar in this game. That is like, "steadystreamofdrool" simplistic... To, on top of that, limit our choice of fully functional sets to 18, 19, or whatever it is,...at what point will PvP be entirely decision-free?
I mean, when can we finally see the awesome level of skill these full-tantrum, purple-faced, snot-streaming-from-nostrils, skinned-knee-toddlers possess? I'm ready to have my mind blown by their god-like PvP skill! I need that in my life! ...Their pudgy wittle fists just hammering up and down on the garage door opener that's replaced their keyboard. Aren't they pweshuss!? Quick, disable more sets, so we can see even more SKILL!!!
No redefinition needed, it's literally what it is. I have an effect that can trigger on a basic attack, and when that effect triggers, it's a proc. I get that you feel the need to rationalize keeping easy buttons, or the lack of buttons, in PvP, but let's not do it by trying to redefine things that have been in gaming for decades.0 -
ZOS_ConnorGmodGreetings all,
After review we have had to removed several more posts for non constructive back and forth. Remember to keep discussions civil, constructive and within the rules. Additionally, while bantering and having fun during a discussion is welcome be mindful not to take it too far and say something that someone may take the wrong way.
You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.0