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What ESO race got the -weakest- racial bonuses in this patch?
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Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »Most previous TES games put Nords as barbarian/fighter race and orcs as tanky/heavy armor/fighter race. So it is definitely flipped in ESO.
Concerning Orcs and Heavy Armor in ESO, this Orc regards the early state of the Swift Passive of Increased Damage Done to Gap Closers, later changed to Increased Melee Damage Done, now changed to flat Weapon Damage, combined with our Heavy Armor experience passive, as sufficient evidence that the Heavy Armor DD was intended to exist in this game, at least within PvP, and that these passives relate to the Earthly reality that Momentum = Velocity x Mass.
I mention this only in the context of the numerous debates on here regarding whether players in Heavy Armor should have offensive potential.
Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Redguardstevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »magnusthorek wrote: »My tank is a Redguard. RIP Khalisah al-Jilani, shouldn't have punched you that much
??? Redguard is best tank this patch.
Imperial is actually better. Arguably still nord too. But it doesn’t mean that nord doesn’t deserve buffs. Plus imagine thinking that bosmer is the worst race. Sure you dont have stealth, but redguards are considered tanks instead of scouts or skirmishers. -_-Edited by JobooAGS on March 14, 2021 1:16AM1 -
Nord_Raseri✭✭✭✭✭
✭NordUrzigurumash wrote: »Nord_Raseri wrote: »Most previous TES games put Nords as barbarian/fighter race and orcs as tanky/heavy armor/fighter race. So it is definitely flipped in ESO.
Concerning Orcs and Heavy Armor in ESO, this Orc regards the early state of the Swift Passive of Increased Damage Done to Gap Closers, later changed to Increased Melee Damage Done, now changed to flat Weapon Damage, combined with our Heavy Armor experience passive, as sufficient evidence that the Heavy Armor DD was intended to exist in this game, at least within PvP, and that these passives relate to the Earthly reality that Momentum = Velocity x Mass.
I mention this only in the context of the numerous debates on here regarding whether players in Heavy Armor should have offensive potential.
I do not disagree. Why I said tanky/fighter. Because they were into strongly made heavy armor but still fought like brawlers. It's just weird to me having nords only get some tanking passives when that's the opposite of how they used to be in TES games. Even the ulti gen(which isn't even half as good as werewolf hide) is conditional to taking damage, which I guess is "berserker" like. Still, I'll continue dps-ing with my nords while being gimped compared to others.Veit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »I do not disagree. Why I said tanky/fighter. Because they were into strongly made heavy armor but still fought like brawlers. It's just weird to me having nords only get some tanking passives when that's the opposite of how they used to be in TES games. Even the ulti gen(which isn't even half as good as werewolf hide) is conditional to taking damage, which I guess is "berserker" like. Still, I'll continue dps-ing with my nords while being gimped compared to others.
I agree. From my point of view there is, or was, little difference between Orc and Nord in TES, just like Bosmer and Khajiit.
Since the last adjustment at Wrathstone, in PvP there essentially was no difference between an Orc in Heavy and a Nord in Medium, so that fits with what you described about the difference between the two.
Edited by Urzigurumash on March 13, 2021 11:50PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Nord_Raseri✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nord
Sadly orcs lost 1k stam and nords lost a third of their resistance.Urzigurumash wrote: »Nord_Raseri wrote: »I do not disagree. Why I said tanky/fighter. Because they were into strongly made heavy armor but still fought like brawlers. It's just weird to me having nords only get some tanking passives when that's the opposite of how they used to be in TES games. Even the ulti gen(which isn't even half as good as werewolf hide) is conditional to taking damage, which I guess is "berserker" like. Still, I'll continue dps-ing with my nords while being gimped compared to others.
I agree. From my point of view there is, or was, little difference between Orc and Nord in TES, just like Bosmer and Khajiit.
Since the last adjustment at Wrathstone, in PvP there essentially was no difference between an Orc in Heavy and a Nord in Medium, so that fits with what you described about the difference between the two.
Veit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »Sadly orcs lost 1k stam and nords lost a third of their resistance.
Right, this change might equalize the two pretty well for Stam PvP, we'll have to see. I believe the nerf to Orc's Stam and buff to the self-heal was deliberately intended to reinforce Orc's original primary role in this game as a PvP Stamina DD and PvE Tank, like you say. As for me and the other Day 1 Orcs I know, we all naturally assumed the tank role in our early PvE days since this was the role for Heavy Armor.
One thing about the Nord passive in No Proc PvP - it's now the only source of purely passive Ult Gen that doesn't require any action to activate it, off the top of my head, besides the Last Stand Champion passive. Even Heroism pots or the NB passive, you still have to drink a potion. Maybe there's one I forgot.
I think it struck everyone as odd how Orc became the better bow user in PvE than Bosmer at Wrathstone - and I say this is a Wood Orc, although one too clumsy for delicate things like bows.
Edited by Urzigurumash on March 14, 2021 1:09AMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Argonian
We have more max resources anyway...Nord_Raseri wrote: »Sadly orcs lost 1k stam and nords lost a third of their resistance.
Nerf is a nerf, but I do believe that Orc 1K stamina less is kinda... less relevant. Same as Argonian getting 1K more stamina... It is almost meaningless, since we have more resources. Those are easier to get, so value of any passive like that (gear set bonus or racial passive) is less important.
In short: Orcs nerf & Argonian buff (1K stamina) does not matter much. In fact, my Orc character has now more stamina than before the patch, with the same build, despite having 1K less from racial passive...
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Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭NordNord_Raseri wrote: »Sadly orcs lost 1k stam and nords lost a third of their resistance.
Nords were the only race this patch that received a straight nerf. Argonians got 1k stamina in return for their sustain going from 4k to 3125 and the 6% healing done is better now with sources of it removed, Orcs were the best stamina race and lost 1k stamina but gained a massive buff to their heal, along with Spell damage, and pretty much every other race was straight buffed. On the other hand, Nords lost 1360 resistances and their Chilled immunity and got... some frost resistance? What did we gain as compensation for losing over a third of our resistances? The Tank Club has Nord right now as the FIFTH choice for tanking race, and all we have are tanking passives, we aren't even good at that anymore!2 -
Nord_Raseri✭✭✭✭✭
✭NordNord_Raseri wrote: »Sadly orcs lost 1k stam and nords lost a third of their resistance.
Nords were the only race this patch that received a straight nerf. Argonians got 1k stamina in return for their sustain going from 4k to 3125 and the 6% healing done is better now with sources of it removed, Orcs were the best stamina race and lost 1k stamina but gained a massive buff to their heal, along with Spell damage, and pretty much every other race was straight buffed. On the other hand, Nords lost 1360 resistances and their Chilled immunity and got... some frost resistance? What did we gain as compensation for losing over a third of our resistances? The Tank Club has Nord right now as the FIFTH choice for tanking race, and all we have are tanking passives, we aren't even good at that anymore!
I know. But I'll keep dps-ing with my nord stamsorc (i'm a masochist). Not looking forward to less resistances(I solo dungeons) and definitely not looking forward to the general damage and crit nerfs with upcoming patch. I'm currently at 75k with my nord(Just into the vet hm dlc trial viable slot in my guild, and will likely no longer even be vet viable, forget hardmode)Veit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RedguardNord_Raseri wrote: »Sadly orcs lost 1k stam and nords lost a third of their resistance.
Nords were the only race this patch that received a straight nerf. Argonians got 1k stamina in return for their sustain going from 4k to 3125 and the 6% healing done is better now with sources of it removed, Orcs were the best stamina race and lost 1k stamina but gained a massive buff to their heal, along with Spell damage, and pretty much every other race was straight buffed. On the other hand, Nords lost 1360 resistances and their Chilled immunity and got... some frost resistance? What did we gain as compensation for losing over a third of our resistances? The Tank Club has Nord right now as the FIFTH choice for tanking race, and all we have are tanking passives, we aren't even good at that anymore!
@Sangwyne I really don't get why you keep saying that Nords are bad tanks now. The reason Nords are good tanks in the first place has been left unchanged - their ultimate generation. You could strip them of all of their racial passives except that ultimate generation and they would still be top tier for tanking, perhaps only behind Imperials since they have a similar bonus but would keep their other bonuses in this hypothetical scenario.
Anyone who is complaining about the racial balance has to be talking about highly optimized content, because of how small these differences actually are, and for highly optimized content your resistance value doesn't matter as long as you keep those warhorns coming and don't die. And you won't die, because the other races can manage without those 9.1% damage reduction too. They are still top tier tanks. Only beginner tanks, who struggle staying alive, will be impacted by this, because they haven't learned to dodge Anvil Crackers in vBRF for example. Most attacks oneshot you anyway so what does it matter. For everything else you have healers to heal you up.
This was mainly a PvP nerf, not a regular tank nerf (not one that matters anyway).
As for what you said in the other thread about about the DPS hierarchy in response to me, since it does relate to the topic of this thread too and I don't want to have the same discussion in three different places and it fits here as well...
I'm not seeing this sentiment reflected anywhere else. To be entirely honest, Khajiit already made rather mediocre damage dealers before, and I'm not seeing how a measly 2% crit damage buff would help compensate for that when there are already so many other sources of critical damage available, many of which have been added recently. Especially not with the nerf to critical chance making critical damage a less desirable stat in comparison; I think as time passes we still start to see a clearer picture, but I highly doubt that Khajiit would suddenly shoot up to top DPS because of 2% crit damage after all these changes. If anything, it just means that the builds for Khajiit need to be tailored more to their racial passives, with more crit chance to make use of their crit damage. Remember; other races can pick up the 15% critical damage boost from flanking, which is better than the 12% Khajiit boost, but Khajiit CANNOT pick up 258 weapon and spell damage, as the maximum I can see from any particular star is 165.Seeing some inaccuracies here, although I don't claim to have been spoon-fed the truth either. This is how I understand it:
The reason Khajiit are better than they used to be, despite the nerf to crit chance over all, is that everyone now has higher base values. 1000 Spell and weapon damage raise the base damage of all skills, which also raises the base crit damage, making crit damage modifiers more powerful than before. Now this balances out with crit chance being lower now, so dps is roughly the same, but Khajiit benefit from this more than the other races and so they are now top tier together with Dunmer. Which one is better needs to be tested by someone who can parse better than me and knows their statistics better than I do.
Most of the other changes I agree with you upon/are moot, with a couple notable exceptions.got a sustain nerf which hits their already weak dps and makes Khajiit sustain better than them. Their max stats barely matter for dps, but tanks appreciate having a stamina bonus equal to their magicka bonus so they don't need to invest extra into stamina to get their resource pool higher for synergies, allowing them to get slightly more max health now. The biggest change to Argonians wasn't listed in the patch notes though as they benefit from the new base stats the same way Khajiit do. Their bonus to healing done used to be quite a bit weaker than what Altmer and Dunmer (and now Orcs too) get from their 258 spell damage, but due to the 1000 spell damage everyone is getting now, it is far easier for the Argonian healing bonus to out-perform the spell damage boni of the other races giving Argonians the strongest heals of all the races (aside from maybe Khajiit which needs to be tested). They aren't replacing Bretons as top tier healers but rather they join them, sharing the top spot as they each fullfill different needs of the group. Bretons buff better due to their sustain, Argonians keep people alive better and can heal tombs against Lokkestiizs more easily.
3125/45 seconds is still about 69.5 resources/s, or about 140 prismatic recovery. Khajiit have 85 recovery (for stamina and magicka at least) and would need 65% increased recovery or so to match theirs, with Arcanist/Mooncalf removed entirely, Major Endurance/Intellect nerfed from 40% to 30%, and Minor Endurance/Intellect nerfed from 20% to 15%. Argonians are likely still better for sustain, and in a meta where sustain was just nerfed, that is fairly important; now, with the base health bump of course, many are opting to simply go parse food, which renders the argument as to which has higher sustain a nonissue anyhow. The 6% healing done passive of the Argonians definitely got a lot better in comparison, especially with the reduction in overall healing done, but the issue here is that healers had a tendency to overheal, rendering all that extra healing allies received overkill. Bretons were the superior option due to their magicka recovery and cost reduction allowing them to cast skills to heal, buff and debuff more, and with that recovery increased, I am worried they will continue to be so.
Argonians sustain first.
Khajiit would need 65% increased recovery to match theirs. 28% from armor, 30% from major, 15% from minor intellect. Sorcerer, Warden, Nightblade, Dragonknight, Mage's Guild, Werewolf, Twohander, Continuous Attack passives all have unnamed recovery percent-bonuses that stack on top of the others. I'd say Khajiit easily got that one in the bag. Their only drawback is that they can't restore stamina while blocking and that they have to focus on one stat, but that's what damage dealers do anyway.
Now Khajiit critical damage.
As I have mentioned in the other thread, the increase to base stats and how it affects racial passives has been largely overlooked (in part because some of the people who made videos on these things don't play ESO anymore). To put it very simply, just to explain the principle behind it, I'll give a somewhat abstract example but with rather simple math:
Suppose a skill deals 3000 damage . It crits for 4500 damage at base.
On an Orc, due to their bonus, it deals 3250 damage and crits for 4875 damage.
On a Khajiit the skill deals 3000 damage and crits for 4620 damage.
That's why people were upset last patch that Orcs and Dunmer crit higher than Khajiit, when crit is supposed to be their thing.
Now in the new patch, because of the new increased base stats that don't come from modifiers that are applied later, the same skill deals 4000 damage instead and crits for 6000 damage.
The Orc deals 4250 damage and crits for 6375
The Khajiit deals 4000 damage and crits for 6480
The larger the starting value, the bigger the returns for Khajiit. The available crit chance factors into this as well of course, but that doesn't change the principle, only where that break-even point is where Khajiit overtakes Orc.
But that's how Khajiit can be weak in one patch and be strong the next without their passives changing.
According to rumours this point has now been reached and Khajiit are now top tier damage dealers, which I can't confirm nor deny, because I can't reliably test it.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
nesakinter✭✭✭✭RedguardRedguards may be great for people learning to tank but for experienced players, for tanking boosting the team's performance is all that matters so Imperials and Nords are better anyways for the ultimate, except certain PvE scenarios, where you are expected to hold your ultimate.1 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nord@Sangwyne I really don't get why you keep saying that Nords are bad tanks now.
Not just me, pretty much everyone agrees Nords are much worse off now; 1360 was a massive hit to their resistances, they got absolutely nothing in compensation, and they still don't have any sustain, which tanks desperately need. But don't listen to me, listen to this guy literally named "The Tank Club", who's been doing these videos for a while and has plenty of experience, where he goes over why Nord are not first, not second, not third, not even fourth, but FIFTH on his list.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71gzo0CEz4EThe reason Nords are good tanks in the first place has been left unchanged - their ultimate generation. You could strip them of all of their racial passives except that ultimate generation and they would still be top tier for tanking
...No. Resistances were quite a big reason to play them, and I'm sure you were being hyperbolic here for effect, but absolutely no one would play Nord if all it gave was a measly 0.5 ult/s, it's really not that amazing. Besides, that aspect of Imperials was just buffed, enabling them to have comparable uptime, while also having more health, more sustain, and more damage than Nords.
You left out the part where that Orc is running a parse on a dummy or in a trial environment and has 20% critical damage from Major Force, 10% from Minor Brittle, 10% from Minor Force, running Shadow with 7 Divines for 18%, using Backstabber for 15% and Fighting Finesse for 10% and wielding a 2H Axe for another 8% on top of the 150% base for 241%. I won't even address another possible 20% critical damage from Nightblade with Grim Focus and Hemorrhage or something. Now suddenly the Orc has 241% crit damage, only 12% less than the Khajiit, but 258 more Weapon damage and more Stamina, and Dunmer would have even more than the Orc. Considering that a reasonable amount of investment into crit chance would probably be around 40% (10% base, 3% Precision, 13% Mother's Sorrow, 7.2% Precise, 6% Minor Savagery=39.2%), and you're looking at 3% more damage in total from the 12% critical damage (0.608x1+0.392x2.53=1.59976 vs 0.608x1+0.392x2.41=1.55272, 1.59976/1.55272=1.03029) without considering the effects of the 258 weapon damage and increased stamina, which would almost certainly yield more than just a 3% increase. Also, as I mentioned earlier, Orc/Dunmer can pick up 15% increased crit damage from Backstabber rather easily, more than the 12% of Khajiit, but Khajiit cannot pick up 258 Weapon damage. Their 12% critical damage is vastly overrated, especially after critical chance was just nerfed.Now in the new patch, because of the new increased base stats that don't come from modifiers that are applied later, the same skill deals 4000 damage instead and crits for 6000 damage.
The Orc deals 4250 damage and crits for 6375
The Khajiit deals 4000 damage and crits for 6480
The larger the starting value, the bigger the returns for Khajiit. The available crit chance factors into this as well of course, but that doesn't change the principle, only where that break-even point is where Khajiit overtakes Orc.But that's how Khajiit can be weak in one patch and be strong the next without their passives changing.
According to rumours this point has now been reached and Khajiit are now top tier damage dealers, which I can't confirm nor deny, because I can't reliably test it.
Let's wait for the parses to come in first.0 -
nesakinter✭✭✭✭Redguard@Ratzkifal
There are some parses for both stam and mag classes in Liko's channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw
As far as DPS goes, he has been the best DPS in the game for the last few years. In every single class, he has put Khajiit on top with parses shown.
@Sangwyne
You are entirely ignoring that the fact nothing is stopping the Khajiit to use Backstabber CP. Also due to the crit chance nerfs, few builds are running Shadow, almost every build is running Thief instead. Nobody will ever use axes, because daggers and swords are significantly better.
If you want to know why exactly 12% crit dmg is better than 258 weapon damage, it is the same reason, why Shadow with 11% crit damage is significantly better than Warrior with 234 weapon damage. Divines boost their values but the ratio remains the same. It is because we are significantly past the breaking point of effective power where crit damage is better than weapon damage.
Also, as far as resources go, Khajiit is virtually the same as other DPS races. While, they have 1k less stam/mag, they have 1k health, which pushes them to 20k health with parse food, where as races without HP bonuses has drop 1k stam/mag for health to get to 20k HP
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Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nordnesakinter wrote: »@Ratzkifal
You are entirely ignoring that the fact nothing is stopping the Khajiit to use Backstabber CP.
My previous example already assumed the Khajiit was using Backstabber too, with everything the same as the Orc/Dunmer. And I could have easily used Nightblade as an example, which has an additional 20% critical damage and renders the Khajiit bonus even less relevant. My point is simply that without seeing the parse numbers, I don't think that Khajiit will suddenly shoot up from being a mediocre DPS to top dog cat because of a measly 2% crit damage buff.nesakinter wrote: »@Ratzkifal
Also, as far as resources go, Khajiit is virtually the same as other DPS races. While, they have 1k less stam/mag, they have 1k health, which pushes them to 20k health with parse food, where as races without HP bonuses has drop 1k stam/mag for health to get to 20k HP
You're giving certain players a little too much credit. In my experience, some DPS players will literally die (multiple times too) before they ever drop a single iota of damage to pick up some survivability; it's the reason tanks were expected to run Ebon, because you'd see these butt-naked 10.4k HP melee dudes with parse food and red-green color blindness speeding past you at hyperspeed and foaming at the mouth to aggro every mob in the dungeon while wearing 7 pieces of Divines Light armor, with single digit resistances and no major resolve buff slotted on their bar because it didn't directly contribute to their DPS.nesakinter wrote: »Also due to the crit chance nerfs, few builds are running Shadow, almost every build is running Thief instead. Nobody will ever use axes, because daggers and swords are significantly better.
Fair point, I'd imagine Thief would be the superior option after all this, and especially for Khajiit. Daggers were nerfed, but aside from that, I'm curious to see if the critical chance nerfs will actually have the opposite effect, and lead people to run not one but TWO critical chance sets in an effort to make up for missing stats. True-Sworn Fury could even be the new meta set, assuming you had a skill to lower your health enough to enable utilizing it to its maximum potential; perhaps Vampires could be making a comeback?2 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Redguard@Sangwyne I really don't get why you keep saying that Nords are bad tanks now.
Not just me, pretty much everyone agrees Nords are much worse off now; 1360 was a massive hit to their resistances, they got absolutely nothing in compensation, and they still don't have any sustain, which tanks desperately need. But don't listen to me, listen to this guy literally named "The Tank Club", who's been doing these videos for a while and has plenty of experience, where he goes over why Nord are not first, not second, not third, not even fourth, but FIFTH on his list.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71gzo0CEz4EThe reason Nords are good tanks in the first place has been left unchanged - their ultimate generation. You could strip them of all of their racial passives except that ultimate generation and they would still be top tier for tanking
...No. Resistances were quite a big reason to play them, and I'm sure you were being hyperbolic here for effect, but absolutely no one would play Nord if all it gave was a measly 0.5 ult/s, it's really not that amazing. Besides, that aspect of Imperials was just buffed, enabling them to have comparable uptime, while also having more health, more sustain, and more damage than Nords.
You left out the part where that Orc is running a parse on a dummy or in a trial environment and has 20% critical damage from Major Force, 10% from Minor Brittle, 10% from Minor Force, running Shadow with 7 Divines for 18%, using Backstabber for 15% and Fighting Finesse for 10% and wielding a 2H Axe for another 8% on top of the 150% base for 241%. I won't even address another possible 20% critical damage from Nightblade with Grim Focus and Hemorrhage or something. Now suddenly the Orc has 241% crit damage, only 12% less than the Khajiit, but 258 more Weapon damage and more Stamina, and Dunmer would have even more than the Orc. Considering that a reasonable amount of investment into crit chance would probably be around 40% (10% base, 3% Precision, 13% Mother's Sorrow, 7.2% Precise, 6% Minor Savagery=39.2%), and you're looking at 3% more damage in total from the 12% critical damage (0.608x1+0.392x2.53=1.59976 vs 0.608x1+0.392x2.41=1.55272, 1.59976/1.55272=1.03029) without considering the effects of the 258 weapon damage and increased stamina, which would almost certainly yield more than just a 3% increase. Also, as I mentioned earlier, Orc/Dunmer can pick up 15% increased crit damage from Backstabber rather easily, more than the 12% of Khajiit, but Khajiit cannot pick up 258 Weapon damage. Their 12% critical damage is vastly overrated, especially after critical chance was just nerfed.Now in the new patch, because of the new increased base stats that don't come from modifiers that are applied later, the same skill deals 4000 damage instead and crits for 6000 damage.
The Orc deals 4250 damage and crits for 6375
The Khajiit deals 4000 damage and crits for 6480
The larger the starting value, the bigger the returns for Khajiit. The available crit chance factors into this as well of course, but that doesn't change the principle, only where that break-even point is where Khajiit overtakes Orc.But that's how Khajiit can be weak in one patch and be strong the next without their passives changing.
According to rumours this point has now been reached and Khajiit are now top tier damage dealers, which I can't confirm nor deny, because I can't reliably test it.
Let's wait for the parses to come in first.
Yes, everyone agrees Nords are worse off. That wasn't my point though. My point is, they are still a very good choice for tanks. The video you provided even says that. "The Nord is still a good choice". I do think he is completely wrong about the ultimate generation being the wrong reason to pick Nord though. Yes, it takes 8minutes for it to fully charge up a Warhorn but that doesn't mean you only benefit after 8minutes. You benefit immediately as you get the first Warhorn faster than anyone who isn't Nord or Imperial and your Warhorn uptime becomes increasingly more important the more damage dealers you have and the better the group damage already is. So a single Warhorn every 8 minutes and 20seconds already makes a big difference, especially since we are talking about score pushing and competitive environments. A group with Nord tanks and DDs and Healers of equal skill to another group without Nords or Imperial tanks will end up dealing more damage because of their better Warhorn uptime. Also, with two Nord tanks you are at one Warhorn every 4 minutes and 10 seconds because you won't (or try to not) have both tanks using their Warhorns at the same time.
I was being hyperbolic, but the same way we only look for damage boosts when looking at dps races, we only look at damage boosts to the group for tank races, because DPS is all that matters. If ZOS was making more content that didn't have oneshots every time you did something wrong, then resistances and max health would obviously matter more for tank races than they do now. On paper Liko is right, in practise he isn't.
As for the Khajiit and Orcs. Yes, I left out that part because it does not change the math. Orcs and Khajiit have access to the same buffs so whatever the Orc gets the Khajiit can get too. All this does is change the break-even point, it does not remove it. Like I said, I cannot prove or disprove this claim. It was just brought to my attention and I gave an explanation on why this could be the case now.
Your amount of "reasonable investment" is missing major savagery still which is very easy to obtain and leaves us at alot more than just 40%. As a reference my stamina bow build on a Bosmer has a crit chance of 60% using Tzogvin and Relequen and the Shadow Mundus. A DW build can run two daggers, a twohanded build is at a disadvantage, so it's very possible Orcs are better using twohanded weapons while Khajiit are better on any other weapon.
But you are right, we should wait for the parses.Edited by Ratzkifal on March 14, 2021 1:10PMThis Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Argonians are absolutely fine, I have no idea what this poll is about. Resourceful is still pretty strong. The only thing lacking might be the +healing bonus, but besides that they’re great.
The problem are rather races that are too strong, e.g. Dunmer, Altmer and Orcs having both Spell and Weapon damage - that’s a major no go, it should be separated.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Redguardnesakinter wrote: »@Ratzkifal
There are some parses for both stam and mag classes in Liko's channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw
As far as DPS goes, he has been the best DPS in the game for the last few years. In every single class, he has put Khajiit on top with parses shown.
I doubt that he is the best, but he is obviously very good. So even if he is wrong about Nords, I'll take his word for Khajiit being on par with Altmer, Dunmer and Orcs.
I still miss t3hasiangod's math videos on racial passives though. Last time his analyses had so much good math and spreadsheets and then he would show parses on the different races proving the math he did before. Too bad everyone is only showing class builds and parses now and doesn't pay as much attention to racial choice as he did.
Alas, t3hasiangod doesn't play ESO anymore because of the bad performance in trials. :'(This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RedguardEven though I don't play any redguards these days, they got my vote here.
I think Redguard and Breton are a bit out of wack with current racials and almost the only races that seem to be virtually useless in their opposing resource, while meh at their primary resource.
Breton gets a bit of a pass because their sustain can really help with magicka classes, esp in pvp. Though I'd think they should have a small buff, something like just adding their spell resist as a permanent passive instead of proccing off having to have burned/chilled/concussed on you.
Redguard I think should just get a small crit bonus. With how valuable crit is, it doesn't have to be huge. 1/2/3 setup (1% per level of passive) could make a big difference. Could leave it universal crit if you wanted them a little more viable for either role, or keep it focused on weapon crit only if we wanted to keep them martial focused (which seems to fit more).
After Redguard I'd say Argonians are the most meh right now. Their potion passive keeps getting nerfed b/c players that don't play them think it's stronger than it is, or someone acts as if they math always gives that amount to all three resources every single time you drink it instead of realizing it only applies if you actually need it. If we want the potion passive to stay where it's at now (I do like the fact it's a unique passive and wouldn't want to completely change it) they need some love elswhere. Currently they are not the best option for any role or even really second place (maybe heals?). Perhaps just giving them the healing taken passive back combined with healing given like it used to be would put them in a stronger position without giving them flat DPS power (in current CP rework, I don't think a few % would be that crazy). If not that, then perhaps a flat resist bonus - although that mimics nords a bit so I can see why it would be frowned upon, but IMO is more fitting with their scaly hides than a humanoid race. My main point on Argonians is that there are a few buffs you could give that wouldn't be directly dps buffs, but still be useful in dps roles, pvp roles or support roles.
-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC0 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭ArgonianI think they are digging in the wrong place for this one. Argonian racial passive was fine just how it was.
It does not need a new identity and I think they are erroneously chipping away at what is best for Argonians.1 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RedguardI voted Redguard because the weapon ability cost reduction hasn't been all that good since class abilities started having stamina morphs. I hate that my Redguards feel forced into using weapon skills when a class skill equivalent would otherwise fit the rest of my build better.
That said, I agree with all of the posts pointing out that the Argonian potion passive is seriously devalued by the fact that it's the only racial in the game that requires you to spend gold to use it.Edited by the1andonlyskwex on March 14, 2021 11:09PM0
