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New Hierarchy of Races for DPS

nsmurfer
nsmurfer
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The recent racial changes seem to have shaken up the racial hierarchy as far as DPS goes. Before, it was basically Orc for anything stamina and high-elf for magicka unless you were having sustain issues, in which cases Breton was preferred. But the nerfs to Orc, has pushed them down significantly, with Dunmer handily beating them in DPS. But from what I have heard from PvE guildies is that, Khajiit is now arguably the top DPS race for most classes, in both stamina and magicka. This is really surprising to me, specially with the nerfs to crit chance hurting them out of all races. Can anyone verify what is going on?
  • Mindcr0w
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    Khajiit got what is likely an unintended buff due to two realities of the game under cp 2.0.

    1.) Resource & spell/weapon damage pools are much higher than they used to be. This makes racial passives that increase these weaker due to diminishing returns.

    2.) Crit damage is harder to stack than it used to be, making additional sources of it more valuable since they suffer less from diminishing returns than they did previously.
    Edited by Mindcr0w on March 11, 2021 8:48PM
  • catnamedwill
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    When the previous racial changes happened in 2019, I remember in one of @susmitds posts, he explained that the Khajiit's 10% crit damage bonus became more powerful than 250 spell/weapon damage racial bonuses when you had a certain amount of weapon/spell damage and resource pools combined, that was quite hard to maintain in a realistic PvE environment while also having a good base crit chance.
    But, with the buff to 12% crit dmg, the required threshold of weapon/spell dmg and resource bonuses has decreased by 20%. With the newly added bonuses to both resource and weapon/spell damage, some classes are slightly past the new breaking point required for 12% crit dmg to beat 250 weapon/spell damage.

    As a result, they are now one of the best damage races. Dunmer too is very close and higher too in some classes. From apractical standpoint, they are virtually the same for DPS. High elves and Orcs are also now hybrid, all they can't really complain.
  • Tommy_The_Gun
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    I don't know what can be top DPS race (maybe Khajiit ? idk). I would assume it probably depends on content you do.
    All I know is Argonian is for 100% worst for DPS role...
  • catnamedwill
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    I don't know what can be top DPS race (maybe Khajiit ? idk). I would assume it probably depends on content you do.
    All I know is Argonian is for 100% worst for DPS role...

    @Tommy_The_Gun Actually as far as DPS goes, Nord is the worst. The argonian potion passive gives them some advantages of a sustain race but Nord's passive legit does nothing for DPS.
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Seems like for Magicka damage Dunmer, Altmer and Khajiit are all about equal. Which one is best will depend on gear, weapon choice, buff uptimes, etc. and they are all within 1% DPS (Altmer and Dunmer are only 0.1% apart). Khajiit has the added benefit of a little sustain (roughly 70 mag/s) and more health, so it’s looking like a good choice even if it’s not always #1 damage. Dunmer Fire Resistance is also pretty solid after the buff to 4620. Not really any unique reason to choose Altmer now, but their damage is still at or near the top (maybe time for them to get a small recovery bonus?).

    Orc is apparently beating Breton on Magicka Damage builds, which is funny and demonstrates how bad Breton has become after a series of indirect nerfs (cost reduction becoming multiplicative, removal of 20% max magicka bonus, no way to proc the doubled Spell Resist in PVE). In a lot of scenarios sustain will matter, so I don’t expect Orc would always perform better.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on March 11, 2021 9:54PM
  • Sangwyne
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    Mindcr0w wrote: »
    Khajiit got what is likely an unintended buff due to two realities of the game under cp 2.0.

    1.) Resource & spell/weapon damage pools are much higher than they used to be. This makes racial passives that increase these weaker due to diminishing returns.

    2.) Crit damage is harder to stack than it used to be, making additional sources of it more valuable since they suffer less from diminishing returns than they did previously.

    Critical damage is easier to stack than ever before; ZOS added Minor Brittle for 10% critical damage, buffed Divines, buffed Major Force from 15% to 20%, made Axes increase your critical damage instead of applying a bleed, added multiple ways to access Minor Force through sets, added critical damage from sets like True-Sworn Fury, the list goes on. Critical chance however is down across pretty much all sources, meaning that critical damage became relatively less valuable. When you add more sources of critical damage and remove or reduce sources of critical chance, critical damage as a stat loses value (because you don't crit as often to actually gain the bonus damage) and critical chance as a stat gains value (because the more you crit, the more you can make use of the added critical damage); this is why some people are already saying that the meta is no longer 1 crit chance set and 1 damage set, but TWO crit sets to make up for the loss of critical chance this patch.
    I don't know what can be top DPS race (maybe Khajiit ? idk). I would assume it probably depends on content you do.
    All I know is Argonian is for 100% worst for DPS role...

    @Tommy_The_Gun Actually as far as DPS goes, Nord is the worst. The argonian potion passive gives them some advantages of a sustain race but Nord's passive legit does nothing for DPS.

    I think most people would definitely agree that Nord/Argonian are the bottom two races in regards to DPS, with Khajiit not far above them, as their Critical Damage passive is massively overrated in a meta where crit chance is hard to come by. I really wish that Argonians weren't pigeonholed into being healers only or that Nords weren't relegated to a race just for tanks, and not even a particularly good one after last patch; look at Imperial for how a good tank race would work, they have more Stamina (meaning more damage), more Health (good on tanks), on top of sustain (great for anyone) which also affects their ultimate uptime, allowing them to get more Warhorns out. Unfortunately, the resistance nerf means that Nords aren't even that great anymore at the only thing they were meant to be, with better options available, like Imperial, not only for tanking but literally everything, and the same can be said for Argonians having their sustain nerfed, when Bretons were already the better choice for Healing and DPS.
    Edited by Sangwyne on March 11, 2021 10:00PM
  • Mindcr0w
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    Not really any unique reason to choose Altmer now, but their damage is still at or near the top (maybe time for them to get a small recovery bonus?).

    I disagree wholeheartedly. That Altmer stam regen can be absolutely huge for mag characters in situations where sprinting, blocking, dodging, or bashing are factors.

    This hill I will die on.
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Mindcr0w wrote: »
    Not really any unique reason to choose Altmer now, but their damage is still at or near the top (maybe time for them to get a small recovery bonus?).

    I disagree wholeheartedly. That Altmer stam regen can be absolutely huge for mag characters in situations where sprinting, blocking, dodging, or bashing are factors.

    This hill I will die on.

    I think Spell Recharge is useful in PvP, but in PVE I’d rather have the larger stam pool of Dunmer for an extra dodge roll, without waiting 6s and casting an ability. Nothing really pressures stamina continuously, but we do occasionally need to burn it all in a few seconds.

    Khajiit’s Stamina passives fall right between the elves’, a little Max Stam and a little Stamina Recovery. Maybe it’s fair to call the stam passives of all 3 options about equal.

    The thing that makes me lean more toward Dunmer than Altmer is the Fire Resistance. Depending on other sources of resistance it can vary in effectiveness, but it’s usually at least 10% reduction in fire damage taken, and can be over 12% reduction. Much more useful than Altmer’s 5% mitigation while casting or channeling IMO. Khajiit’s 915 Max Health isn’t much, but at least it’s always active, not just while using a few specific skills that most players try to avoid casting anyway.
  • Icy_Waffles
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    What’s best for stam dps now?
  • catnamedwill
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    @Icy_Waffles
    It is a tie between Dunmer and Khajiit but Khajiit has slightly better sustain and higher HP, while Dunmer has flame resists.
  • Ratzkifal
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    Seeing some inaccuracies here, although I don't claim to have been spoon-fed the truth either. This is how I understand it:

    The reason Khajiit are better than they used to be, despite the nerf to crit chance over all, is that everyone now has higher base values. 1000 Spell and weapon damage raise the base damage of all skills, which also raises the base crit damage, making crit damage modifiers more powerful than before. Now this balances out with crit chance being lower now, so dps is roughly the same, but Khajiit benefit from this more than the other races and so they are now top tier together with Dunmer. Which one is better needs to be tested by someone who can parse better than me and knows their statistics better than I do.

    Orc got a nerf to their max stamina, which contributes to damage output, but this nerf also isn't as impactful as it would have been last patch as the 20% increase to stats from having 300 CP is now gone, making max stamina as a bonus less relevant. This also means that Altmer don't suffer as much from having no max stamina and with their new 258 weapon damage they overtake Redguards, Nords, Imperials and possibly Bosmer as a stam dps race. With the base health getting raised for everyone, their max health bonus is also less relevant as you will still have sufficient max health regardless.

    Bosmer now have a permanent bonus to penetration, which is very useful, especially for stamina dps in 4man content, unoptimized groups. Some testing needs to be done if Bosmer can now run green max stam food and still sustain well as it would mean a bit of a dps increase for them and Redguards. A health bonus from food isn't necessary anymore due to the higher base health, so instead of bistat food they can potentially go for monostat food now while everyone else is still using sustain food.
    Redguard are in a similar position to Bosmer as they are sustain focused. Their uptime on their passive has been increased as it can now proc from damage over time effects. This isn't always useful, but it does help a lot in certain scenarios. They can also potentially run monostat food now, but that won't make them as effective as Bosmer due to their lack of penetration.

    Bretons have been buffed, but paradoxically they are weaker now as damage dealers. Sustain has become easier for everyone so a sustain race isn't as desireable anymore. They still aren't as bad as Redguard is for stamina because magicka skills still cost more, but Bretons could already run bistat food on some setups before so the change to monostat food won't make such a big difference here, especially now that the max stats contribute less to the total damage due to the removal of the 20% attribute bonus from CP.

    Imperial stayed more or less the same, but they can ult more than they used to, so a small dps increase, but a much bigger impact on Imperial tanks who love this change.

    For dps Argonians and Nord are still the worst options.
    Nords have been nerfed but it doesn't matter because resistances weren't the reason you would pick them as dps or tanks anyway.
    Argonians got a sustain nerf which hits their already weak dps and makes Khajiit sustain better than them. Their max stats barely matter for dps, but tanks appreciate having a stamina bonus equal to their magicka bonus so they don't need to invest extra into stamina to get their resource pool higher for synergies, allowing them to get slightly more max health now. The biggest change to Argonians wasn't listed in the patch notes though as they benefit from the new base stats the same way Khajiit do. Their bonus to healing done used to be quite a bit weaker than what Altmer and Dunmer (and now Orcs too) get from their 258 spell damage, but due to the 1000 spell damage everyone is getting now, it is far easier for the Argonian healing bonus to out-perform the spell damage boni of the other races giving Argonians the strongest heals of all the races (aside from maybe Khajiit which needs to be tested). They aren't replacing Bretons as top tier healers but rather they join them, sharing the top spot as they each fullfill different needs of the group. Bretons buff better due to their sustain, Argonians keep people alive better and can heal tombs against Lokkestiizs more easily.
    Edited by Ratzkifal on March 12, 2021 3:22AM
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ascarl
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    Thank you Ratzkifal for you insightful post.
  • Sangwyne
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Seeing some inaccuracies here, although I don't claim to have been spoon-fed the truth either. This is how I understand it:

    The reason Khajiit are better than they used to be, despite the nerf to crit chance over all, is that everyone now has higher base values. 1000 Spell and weapon damage raise the base damage of all skills, which also raises the base crit damage, making crit damage modifiers more powerful than before. Now this balances out with crit chance being lower now, so dps is roughly the same, but Khajiit benefit from this more than the other races and so they are now top tier together with Dunmer. Which one is better needs to be tested by someone who can parse better than me and knows their statistics better than I do.
    I'm not seeing this sentiment reflected anywhere else. To be entirely honest, Khajiit already made rather mediocre damage dealers before, and I'm not seeing how a measly 2% crit damage buff would help compensate for that when there are already so many other sources of critical damage available, many of which have been added recently. Especially not with the nerf to critical chance making critical damage a less desirable stat in comparison; I think as time passes we still start to see a clearer picture, but I highly doubt that Khajiit would suddenly shoot up to top DPS because of 2% crit damage after all these changes. If anything, it just means that the builds for Khajiit need to be tailored more to their racial passives, with more crit chance to make use of their crit damage. Remember; other races can pick up the 15% critical damage boost from flanking, which is better than the 12% Khajiit boost, but Khajiit CANNOT pick up 258 weapon and spell damage, as the maximum I can see from any particular star is 165.

    Most of the other changes I agree with you upon/are moot, with a couple notable exceptions.
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Nords have been nerfed but it doesn't matter because resistances weren't the reason you would pick them as dps or tanks anyway.
    Resistances were a reason to pick them though, alongside the ultimate generation; resistances become more valuable and efficient the more of them you have, up to the cap, so Nords having that little bit extra allowing them to cap their mitigation at 50% was a very useful passive indeed for tanks. For example; going from 0% to 5% mitigation (3300 resistances) is obviously a 5% reduction in damage taken, but going from 45% to 50% (also 3300 resistances) is 9.1% damage reduction.
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    got a sustain nerf which hits their already weak dps and makes Khajiit sustain better than them. Their max stats barely matter for dps, but tanks appreciate having a stamina bonus equal to their magicka bonus so they don't need to invest extra into stamina to get their resource pool higher for synergies, allowing them to get slightly more max health now. The biggest change to Argonians wasn't listed in the patch notes though as they benefit from the new base stats the same way Khajiit do. Their bonus to healing done used to be quite a bit weaker than what Altmer and Dunmer (and now Orcs too) get from their 258 spell damage, but due to the 1000 spell damage everyone is getting now, it is far easier for the Argonian healing bonus to out-perform the spell damage boni of the other races giving Argonians the strongest heals of all the races (aside from maybe Khajiit which needs to be tested). They aren't replacing Bretons as top tier healers but rather they join them, sharing the top spot as they each fullfill different needs of the group. Bretons buff better due to their sustain, Argonians keep people alive better and can heal tombs against Lokkestiizs more easily.

    3125/45 seconds is still about 69.5 resources/s, or about 140 prismatic recovery. Khajiit have 85 recovery (for stamina and magicka at least) and would need 65% increased recovery or so to match theirs, with Arcanist/Mooncalf removed entirely, Major Endurance/Intellect nerfed from 40% to 30%, and Minor Endurance/Intellect nerfed from 20% to 15%. Argonians are likely still better for sustain, and in a meta where sustain was just nerfed, that is fairly important; now, with the base health bump of course, many are opting to simply go parse food, which renders the argument as to which has higher sustain a nonissue anyhow. The 6% healing done passive of the Argonians definitely got a lot better in comparison, especially with the reduction in overall healing done, but the issue here is that healers had a tendency to overheal, rendering all that extra healing allies received overkill. Bretons were the superior option due to their magicka recovery and cost reduction allowing them to cast skills to heal, buff and debuff more, and with that recovery increased, I am worried they will continue to be so.
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    For dps Argonians and Nord are still the worst options.

    No disagreement here. I'd like to see Argonians and Nords viable for several builds, rather than relegated only to support and pigeonholed in roles they aren't even the best at.
    Edited by Sangwyne on March 12, 2021 8:49PM
  • volkeswagon
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    I guess it depend how obsessed one is with dps. If they want 75k dps but can only get 72k dps on a specific race then they claim them to be weak. But for those who are happy with 25k dps then they can all work just fine
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