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Age gap
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etchedpixels✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I started with MUD1 and MIST in 1987 then went off and wrote one. I got out of gaming as a career early on because it wasn't a very pleasant industry even back then. I was occupied with other stuff so the second generation of graphical online games and then things like WoW passed me by and were generally so grindy and not story based that they didn't appeal.
I only ended up back in the online gaming world when I got dragged into minecraft and later ESO purely because taking early retirement just before CoVid meant I ran out of good Skyrim mods and finished pillars of eternity and the other good story stuff I could find.
Edited by etchedpixels on March 13, 2021 6:40PMToo many toons not enough time4 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I spend as much money on eso as I've spent on other sub based mmos in the past.
Eso plus is great value, I don't feel the need to spend any more beyond that.
I'm 33 with a full time job, a partner that also plays video games and no kids.
I prefer eso's multiple choice monetasition over eastern games that sell advancement or outright powerups for cash.
I have left my favorite mmo to date age of wulin specifically Beacuse of p2w concerns.
I don't consider stuff you can get by playing paid content p2w as you still need to go out and get those items.
I also don't consider the 2 dlc classes p2w, even if it's blatantly obvious that Zos has made them slightly more powerful for monetary reasons.
I don't particularly get upset about greedy corporations, maybe it's Beacuse I'm older now.
I do think that there should be stricter laws and regulations to protect those with gsmling issues, and if loot boxes /rng crates were removed I wouldn't shed a single tear over them, but I also have enough self control that they don't particularly concern me personally.
So yeah, that's about it.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SidraWillowsky wrote: »Compare that to other MMOs, where they charge for EVERYTHING.
No, ZOS isn't the worst of them, but a little evil still has evil. Accepting one, but not the other, because of magnitude, is still accepting.
The Crown mounts, dyes, pets, cosmetics, houses, assistants, DLC, furniture, personalities, hair, adornments, and costumes are one thing. For this game... tiny evil. Other games, maybe it is more. This game is not about cosmetics, though.
The classes, skill lines, and any combat systems should be base game, one and all, after the Chapter breaks up into the component parts. I have no problem selling the chapters, with zones, systems, skill lines, and classes as a Chapter bundle for a year. Adding them to the store after that is a small evil.
Experience boosts, skill line unlocks, skyshards, riding lessons, and whatever they are planning for the future along these lines... larger evil. This should not be in ESO.
Crown Crates and gems... just evil.
Politics... Racism (both kinds, pro and con)... Sexism... Ageism... Cancel-isms... never appropriate in the game. Private Discord voice chat is the perfect place for that garbage.
XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus3 -
orion_1981usub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Turning 40 in June, the Big 4-0 then the Big 5-0 and hopefully many more. I'll agree that age gap truly exist in some ways as we are all products of our time. I often cant comprehend the motivations of a 20 year old any more than a 60 year old. However in game the differences melt away as fast as dps down a boss.
I still remember when you bought a video game and you got everything in the box. But cheat books always costed extra and you had to mail out for them. Beyond gaming consoles from atari to ps4, my first computer was the 386's and the era of D&D gold box games that I still love today! I have enjoyed the evolution of video games and MMO since I played Everquest (dark elf cleric) in the 90's. MMO's were so different that most folks couldn't comprehend not being able to leave the start zone with out having a partner or group or having to leave your game running to sit you toon in town to sell items.
When I look at monetization, I use to laugh at suckers buying stuff. But then I bought a house and own stuff and have an income and no one has any right to snicker at how I use it legally. Do I like silly things like loot boxes, no, I wont buy them. Will I buy crowns for seasonal items, yes. I don't mind spending my money on something I want.
As far as zone chats, they have always been silly and always will be silly. At least you never hear the words "train, get out now, train, zone out, zone out!" and watch everyone drop what they were doing and run to the nearest zone exit. Now you just have people trying to reclaim the glamour of "Barrens Chat" from wow. Yes its childish... which means you don't have to participate if your not a child.
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newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I was going to come up with some clever well thought out comments on this thread, but then I found someone had beaten me to it:I suspect you have it all the wrong way round. As an older player (I'm 70) and ex-EQ player I actually have more time to play because I'm retired. I'm not bothered by "the game company's monetisation practices" (we can each define them differently) because the switch from subscription-only to optional subscription/crown store made not a jot of difference to how I play the game.
I agree. I have tended to jump into other games on occasion, usually the "free to play" because I sub to ESO and don't want to spend money I don't have to (after months of "every so often" I have about a 10th level RIFT character) and in some other games the monitization is right in one's face; for example in DDO, right at character creation there are a bunch of choices blocked but that you can get "if you pay for it".
ESO is much more polite about things. Well other than the debacle years ago when they had yellow banners screaming that some pet or other wasn't going to be purchasable shortly - but they learned from that thank the Daedra.As to whether the game is outdated, that's increasingly not the case in my view. Older games like EQ were a challenge, they took time to achieve anything worthwhile, and players respected that
<snippage>the reality is that most changes trivialise the game even more as it adapts to the "I want everything without any effort or payment and I want it NOW" breed of gamer. If anything, ESO is moving with the times too much for my liking!
And yes, I agree. I am not retired and don't have a ton of time to play; but I too find the idea of "gimme it all now" (or even "gimmie most of it now") counter to fun; and I get that for the kiddos with a bad case of Affluenza, that will be counter-productive.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis2 -
Guizan✭✭✭I am 55 with a good-paying job, so I don't mind spending money on a game that I like. Time is a bit more limited than it used to be but the pandemic and me working from home save me lots of time not having to commute 3 hours a day to get to and from work.
In the guild I am in we have people from 15 to 70+ and I have no problem playing with younger or older players. As for politics I try to keep my mouth shut which I am used to because of RL growing up in a part of my country with opposite views of mine
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Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AlextheMuspel wrote: »I don't think age has all that much to do with what one tolerates. If one was to generalize; older people have had more time to conclude what they are willing to deal with. While younger people just except the situation. Of course since it's a generalization it's probably wrong anyway. Just like the statistics from super data are probably wrong.
I have always gotten a laugh out of the thought that there weren't any "Old" gamers in whatever game I was playing. Gaming as it is today got here because of the old timers. You don't really think that they stopped playing do you? No, they're just continuing to have fun. Without telling everyone that they are here.
I decided at a young age that if growing up was becoming old and cranky like my dad and his cronies, I just wasn't going to do it. At 57 I still get comments about it and it makes me happy.... lol
Where generalization exists, exceptions always co-exist. Nonetheless, exceptions do not invalidate the generalization, just like the bell curve suggests. Based on my experience, it's certainly possible for physiologically young people to be "bitter and cranky" (yep, that would be me). I have zero tolerance towards lootboxes, immoral monetizing practices, unfinished products, etc. And sometimes I wonder why people would tolerate those nonsense. One of the answers I came up with is in the original post. Based on the replies in this thread, it appears that older gamers who play the game to chill do have a higher tolerance for (intentional) design flaws.
Wrong again, I fear. The reason older people appear to you to be more tolerant of monetisation is largely because they simply aren't bothered by it as by and large they don't participate in it, and they recognise that such things are down to personal choice. They are in a position in life where they can play the game rather than look for shortcuts (which is all that things like skyshards and skills in the crown store are about).
Given that your claimed (but false) reason for their approach to monetisation is that older people don't have as much time to play - when in fact they don't spend 10 hours a day working so most have more time for gaming than they used to have - and given that they tend to have a more stable income with fewer overheads (mortgage paid off, children largely self-sufficient etc), they are more likely to have a multiple months subscription and not be living from one paycheque to another as many your age are doing (and as we all did at that age).
Of course, when you go on to mention "(intentional) design flaws" as well as "immoral monetizing practices" you are turning the entire discussion into an entirely subjective one, and one that is not necessarily anything to do with age, merely one person's understanding of morality versus someone else's, both equally validly held. As we get older, do we tend to become more tolerant of the other person's point of view? Quite possibly, yes.Edited by Tandor on March 13, 2021 8:24PM3 -
DigiAngel✭✭✭✭✭
✭No impact....gamers are gamers and speak the same language no matter what the age (I'm over 40 if that helps) 3 -
Cirantille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I am 27 and I don't see its effect that much
And those are usually edgy teenagers who think they are funny and overuse some cranky old memes in zones0 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I started out with D&D back in the day, and was thrilled when EQ came out in 1999. It was a great way for my wife and I to play together, and she still plays P99 today. But I don't think a whole lot has changed, other than the extra time and discretionary income that many older folks have access to. I would say the biggest variable I notice in game is that capitalization and truncation of words, spelling, as well as the use of certain common acronyms is more of an indicator of age than say, politics or morals or what have you.Charging for Imperials feels.... kind of bad. Same with Classes. Those feel like they should be included in the base game to avoid a PTW feeling.
Absolutely agree that Imperial race is a minor pay to win, especially since they raised the skill cost reduction from 3% to 6%. I absolutely notice the difference in resource management, and will most likely use the race for any further characters I roll.
Edited by Jaraal on March 13, 2021 8:39PM0 -
stevenyaub16_ESO✭✭✭✭Bit older than the average, ESO crown store is fair to me (not perfect but not terrible either). You pay for X amount of content/enjoyment and everything here is fair and reasonable, games these days require a lot more resources than the past due to graphical, audio and data handling too.
There are plenty of other games where you can see the practices are greedy and exploit impulse buying or gambling. F2P model are notorious for this as well as many new AAA games. But ESO doesn't fit into those categories in my view.
There are plenty of problems with the game but it's pricing isn't one of them.3 -
vibeborn✭✭✭✭✭I turn 31 this month, so I must say I'm pretty close in age with the average MMORPG player.
I don't believe age should really play a role in this matter, as I can tell from this thread (and other age threads) ESO players come in all different ages, and I think it's only cool that it is that way.
I also quite like that you can't tell how old a player is, which means you can do content with someone who's 50+ and someone who's 25- at the same time. I like that aspect.
Edited by vibeborn on March 13, 2021 9:09PM0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Agree with that, as you age you realize its pretty pointless, way more so in an video game where you only end up blocked or worse.Ringing_Nirnroot wrote: »It’s usually teenager trolls who bring up politics and hate bait, etc
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Experience boosts, skill line unlocks, skyshards, riding lessons, and whatever they are planning for the future along these lines... larger evil. This should not be in ESO.
I disagree with you on the skyshards/skill lines part. They are in the crown store to satisfy the people that think they should only do something once and it be unlocked for all their characters.
This is in opposition to those of us who think each character should earn their stuff.
It being a cheap option in the crown store makes both sides happy, since you can use the crowns from ESO plus to buy them if you like.The Moot Councillor0 -
Chips_Ahoy✭✭✭✭✭AlextheMuspel wrote: »They seem more tolerable towards the game company's monetization practices. I thought about why this is the case, and I came up with the following answer: they probably don't have much time to devote to gaming.
I am on the 30-40 line.
And it is not that I am tolerable with monetization practices, I understand that for them it is a business, for me it is a hobby.
ESO is not my second life, people do not invest in the game, people waste time and money in the game.
I am only devoted to women and beer.
in that order.2 -
AlextheMuspel✭✭✭AlextheMuspel wrote: »I don't think age has all that much to do with what one tolerates. If one was to generalize; older people have had more time to conclude what they are willing to deal with. While younger people just except the situation. Of course since it's a generalization it's probably wrong anyway. Just like the statistics from super data are probably wrong.
I have always gotten a laugh out of the thought that there weren't any "Old" gamers in whatever game I was playing. Gaming as it is today got here because of the old timers. You don't really think that they stopped playing do you? No, they're just continuing to have fun. Without telling everyone that they are here.
I decided at a young age that if growing up was becoming old and cranky like my dad and his cronies, I just wasn't going to do it. At 57 I still get comments about it and it makes me happy.... lol
Where generalization exists, exceptions always co-exist. Nonetheless, exceptions do not invalidate the generalization, just like the bell curve suggests. Based on my experience, it's certainly possible for physiologically young people to be "bitter and cranky" (yep, that would be me). I have zero tolerance towards lootboxes, immoral monetizing practices, unfinished products, etc. And sometimes I wonder why people would tolerate those nonsense. One of the answers I came up with is in the original post. Based on the replies in this thread, it appears that older gamers who play the game to chill do have a higher tolerance for (intentional) design flaws.
Wrong again, I fear. The reason older people appear to you to be more tolerant of monetisation is largely because they simply aren't bothered by it as by and large they don't participate in it, and they recognise that such things are down to personal choice. They are in a position in life where they can play the game rather than look for shortcuts (which is all that things like skyshards and skills in the crown store are about).Given that your claimed (but false) reason for their approach to monetisation is that older people don't have as much time to play - when in fact they don't spend 10 hours a day working so most have more time for gaming than they used to have - and given that they tend to have a more stable income with fewer overheads (mortgage paid off, children largely self-sufficient etc), they are more likely to have a multiple months subscription and not be living from one paycheque to another as many your age are doing (and as we all did at that age).
Of course, when you go on to mention "(intentional) design flaws" as well as "immoral monetizing practices" you are turning the entire discussion into an entirely subjective one, and one that is not necessarily anything to do with age, merely one person's understanding of morality versus someone else's, both equally validly held. As we get older, do we tend to become more tolerant of the other person's point of view? Quite possibly, yes.
I don't think there's a definitive "right" or "wrong" for this problem since no one can speak for a group of players. I'd prefer more inclusive terms instead of a straight "true or false".
However, what I can say with certainty is "wrong" is your understanding of my post. When I claim "older player don't have much time to play", I specified it's the 30-49 year-old age group, which is above the average 33-year-old. I also said somewhere else in this thread that the 60-79-year-old age group will have more time to play after their retirement.
Convicting "right" or "wrong" comes after reviewing the other's arguments.Edited by AlextheMuspel on March 13, 2021 9:21PM0 -
AlextheMuspel✭✭✭AlextheMuspel wrote: »I don't think age has all that much to do with what one tolerates. If one was to generalize; older people have had more time to conclude what they are willing to deal with. While younger people just except the situation. Of course since it's a generalization it's probably wrong anyway. Just like the statistics from super data are probably wrong.
I have always gotten a laugh out of the thought that there weren't any "Old" gamers in whatever game I was playing. Gaming as it is today got here because of the old timers. You don't really think that they stopped playing do you? No, they're just continuing to have fun. Without telling everyone that they are here.
I decided at a young age that if growing up was becoming old and cranky like my dad and his cronies, I just wasn't going to do it. At 57 I still get comments about it and it makes me happy.... lol
Where generalization exists, exceptions always co-exist. Nonetheless, exceptions do not invalidate the generalization, just like the bell curve suggests. Based on my experience, it's certainly possible for physiologically young people to be "bitter and cranky" (yep, that would be me). I have zero tolerance towards lootboxes, immoral monetizing practices, unfinished products, etc. And sometimes I wonder why people would tolerate those nonsense. One of the answers I came up with is in the original post. Based on the replies in this thread, it appears that older gamers who play the game to chill do have a higher tolerance for (intentional) design flaws.
Of course, when you go on to mention "(intentional) design flaws" as well as "immoral monetizing practices" you are turning the entire discussion into an entirely subjective one, and one that is not necessarily anything to do with age, merely one person's understanding of morality versus someone else's, both equally validly held. As we get older, do we tend to become more tolerant of the other person's point of view? Quite possibly, yes.
Unfortunately, the (intentional) design flaw part is not subjective at all. As someone who has studied game design in-depth, ESO has some typical "create a problem, and sell the solution" design in the game. There're too many examples of them, I'll just list some of them.
Imperial racial passive v.s the nerf of other racial passives;
Riding lessons not account-wise;
Skyshard not account-wise;
Mages' Guild & psijic guild skills not account-wise. (All my dps are stamina bc of how tedious these two skill lines are);
etc.etc.
After the fiasco in 2019 involving EA's "surprise mechanics ", I'm sure most sensible gamers would agree lootboxes are immoral and predatory. The only ones defending them are probably saudi princes and some millionaires.
When I express my subjective opinions, I always note that it's my own opinion. However, the things I've mentioned has been addressed over and over again, it's really nothing new to someone who's been closely monitoring the industry for a long time.1 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭AlextheMuspel wrote: »As far as I'm aware, there's a large portion of players above 40 years-old in the ESO community. According to superdata, the average age for a mmorpg gamer in 2016 is 33. As for ESO, it is safe to assume that the Elder Scrolls IP potentially contributed to the older population's interest in the game.
As someone who's in the 18-24 age group, I can definitely feel the age gap sometimes, no matter in the game or on forum. Sometimes I wonder how old those who "debate" about irl politics in the zone chats are. Moreover, a LOT of players seem to come from the EQ era, meaning that they've probably played this genre for decades. They seem more tolerable towards the game company's monetization practices. I thought about why this is the case, and I came up with the following answer: they probably don't have much time to devote to gaming. At the moment, ESO is possibly the only game that they regularly play now, so their tolerance is higher.
When I was growing up we had a strict rule in our house A. Not to discuss politics and B. Not to discuss religion. Been playing on line games since BBS era, MUDS. I have wittinessed the ebb and flow of MMORPGs. I have played PVP games and PBE games. One thing you have to learn is these games are never finished you don't get to the end and win. Why because these games are persistent and evolving.
Again, as someone who has hundreds of games on steam, consoles, and portable consoles, gaming has evolved SO MUCH beyond the MMORPG genre. For anyone who plays games outside of the MMORPG genre, it's clear as crystal how some of the systems in ESO are outdated. "Other MMORPG did the same thing" is not a valid excuse anymore. Unless MMORPG is the only genre that player ever played, for decades even.
Open for discussion: how does the age gap affect you as a younger/older player in ESO?
ESO is not outdated nor is it P2W, I have played pay to win games and I quit those because you can't advance without forking over $$. Try to go play EQ2 if it's still running and you will see outdated. For me I don't let the changes Devs make get under my skin or make me rage quit. I don't take every person who post on a gaming forum as gospel either. I have learned to draw my own conclusions and play each game drawing from my own experience and judgements. I wonder sometimes at the behavior of some people and the thought crosses my mind when I see someone run up and kill the guy I was getting ready to fight , are you a kid to come up and kill this guy who I was killing for a quest?! But then I try and catch myself from labeling others. Maybe ESO is the game all of us older gamers have looked for over all thses years. I'm in my 60s0 -
Misty✭✭✭I fully agree with the rest of the older gen here. Games is no place for politics. These days I have no ear nor patience for politics as it has become toxic it word and deed. Games take me far away from that unwanted noise.5 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AlextheMuspel wrote: »AlextheMuspel wrote: »I don't think age has all that much to do with what one tolerates. If one was to generalize; older people have had more time to conclude what they are willing to deal with. While younger people just except the situation. Of course since it's a generalization it's probably wrong anyway. Just like the statistics from super data are probably wrong.
I have always gotten a laugh out of the thought that there weren't any "Old" gamers in whatever game I was playing. Gaming as it is today got here because of the old timers. You don't really think that they stopped playing do you? No, they're just continuing to have fun. Without telling everyone that they are here.
I decided at a young age that if growing up was becoming old and cranky like my dad and his cronies, I just wasn't going to do it. At 57 I still get comments about it and it makes me happy.... lol
Where generalization exists, exceptions always co-exist. Nonetheless, exceptions do not invalidate the generalization, just like the bell curve suggests. Based on my experience, it's certainly possible for physiologically young people to be "bitter and cranky" (yep, that would be me). I have zero tolerance towards lootboxes, immoral monetizing practices, unfinished products, etc. And sometimes I wonder why people would tolerate those nonsense. One of the answers I came up with is in the original post. Based on the replies in this thread, it appears that older gamers who play the game to chill do have a higher tolerance for (intentional) design flaws.
Wrong again, I fear. The reason older people appear to you to be more tolerant of monetisation is largely because they simply aren't bothered by it as by and large they don't participate in it, and they recognise that such things are down to personal choice. They are in a position in life where they can play the game rather than look for shortcuts (which is all that things like skyshards and skills in the crown store are about).Given that your claimed (but false) reason for their approach to monetisation is that older people don't have as much time to play - when in fact they don't spend 10 hours a day working so most have more time for gaming than they used to have - and given that they tend to have a more stable income with fewer overheads (mortgage paid off, children largely self-sufficient etc), they are more likely to have a multiple months subscription and not be living from one paycheque to another as many your age are doing (and as we all did at that age).
Of course, when you go on to mention "(intentional) design flaws" as well as "immoral monetizing practices" you are turning the entire discussion into an entirely subjective one, and one that is not necessarily anything to do with age, merely one person's understanding of morality versus someone else's, both equally validly held. As we get older, do we tend to become more tolerant of the other person's point of view? Quite possibly, yes.
I don't think there's a definitive "right" or "wrong" for this problem since no one can speak for a group of players. I'd prefer more inclusive terms instead of a straight "true or false".
However, what I can say with certainty is "wrong" is your understanding of my post. When I claim "older player don't have much time to play", I specified it's the 30-49 year-old age group, which is above the average 33-year-old. I also said somewhere else in this thread that the 60-79-year-old age group will have more time to play after their retirement.
Convicting "right" or "wrong" comes after reviewing the other's arguments.
I was referring to your original post, in which you said:-AlextheMuspel wrote: »Moreover, a LOT of players seem to come from the EQ era, meaning that they've probably played this genre for decades. They seem more tolerable towards the game company's monetization practices. I thought about why this is the case, and I came up with the following answer: they probably don't have much time to devote to gaming. At the moment, ESO is possibly the only game that they regularly play now, so their tolerance is higher.
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Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AlextheMuspel wrote: »Unfortunately, the (intentional) design flaw part is not subjective at all. As someone who has studied game design in-depth, ESO has some typical "create a problem, and sell the solution" design in the game. There're too many examples of them, I'll just list some of them.
Imperial racial passive v.s the nerf of other racial passives;
Riding lessons not account-wise;
Skyshard not account-wise;
Mages' Guild & psijic guild skills not account-wise. (All my dps are stamina bc of how tedious these two skill lines are);
etc.etc.
Yeah, pretty subjective.
You can't base the racial thing on your opinion from observation. You have to actually find someone in ZOS that says that this is exactly what happened. Just because something looks this way to you does not mean it looks this way to the game designers.
In an RPG game, nothing that the character does should be account wide. Nothing. Not riding lessons, not skyshards, not skill lines, not achievements, not titles, and not champion points. These are things for non-RPG games. Monetization of these things is by player demand.
Edited by Elsonso on March 13, 2021 10:00PMXBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus4 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭I started out with D&D back in the day, and was thrilled when EQ came out in 1999. It was a great way for my wife and I to play together, and she still plays P99 today. But I don't think a whole lot has changed, other than the extra time and discretionary income that many older folks have access to. I would say the biggest variable I notice in game is that capitalization and truncation of words, spelling, as well as the use of certain common acronyms is more of an indicator of age than say, politics or morals or what have you.Charging for Imperials feels.... kind of bad. Same with Classes. Those feel like they should be included in the base game to avoid a PTW feeling.
Absolutely agree that Imperial race is a minor pay to win, especially since they raised the skill cost reduction from 3% to 6%. I absolutely notice the difference in resource management, and will most likely use the race for any further characters I roll.
Imperials and minor p2w? XD. I was imperial stamcro. I play as dunmer now, comparing passives I am wondering why is free race - dunmer overall better than paid one.
I am 28, I have played mostly free to play pay to win mmo stuff and good old offline games and Diablo 2. I do not care about age gaps, I play happily with older people, with younger people.Edited by Scardan on March 13, 2021 10:18PMLet's be extremely precise in our use of terms.1 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭As for age, I turn 51 this year and I've played this game with folks who aren't legally old enough to purchase it all the way up to some who are pushing 80. Many of those you wouldn't know their age if they didn't tell you and would probably miss a guess by a decade or two or three, even if you spoke with them through a headset all the way up until they shocked you with the truth.
As for Politics, Not in game at all. This type of environment proves we can all get along with folks of varying beliefs because you have no idea of my Real Life beliefs unless I tell you. I've had several assume only to be wrong or at least incomplete,,,, because most folks try to color beliefs in black and white when varying shades of grey tends to be the real color. I find it best to just keep my mouth shut when it comes to those things as I tend to tick folks off from all sides at one time or another.
Time to play, tends to be anywhere from months without logging in to 40 hours in a weekend. It all depends on what content is out and what else I have planned to do.
As far as monetization goes, I had my gripes at first, but as long as I can continue to play without it affecting how I play I could care less how they keep this game going as I enjoy my time when I do play. As for me personally ESO+ satisfies all of my needs at this time.Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%2 -
AlextheMuspel✭✭✭AlextheMuspel wrote: »Unfortunately, the (intentional) design flaw part is not subjective at all. As someone who has studied game design in-depth, ESO has some typical "create a problem, and sell the solution" design in the game. There're too many examples of them, I'll just list some of them.
Imperial racial passive v.s the nerf of other racial passives;
Riding lessons not account-wise;
Skyshard not account-wise;
Mages' Guild & psijic guild skills not account-wise. (All my dps are stamina bc of how tedious these two skill lines are);
etc.etc.
Yeah, pretty subjective.
You can't base the racial thing on your opinion from observation. You have to actually find someone in ZOS that says that this is exactly what happened. Just because something looks this way to you does not mean it looks this way to the game designers.
In an RPG game, nothing that the character does should be account wide. Nothing. Not riding lessons, not skyshards, not skill lines, not achievements, not titles, and not champion points. These are things for non-RPG games. Monetization of these things is by player demand.
I AM a game designer. But I do not work for ZOS. I have no intention of finding anyone who works at ZOS bc my empirical observation and knowledge are sufficient for me to deduct my conclusion.
I have, however, played almost every renowned RPG title in the past three decades, from indie games to AAA titles, from JRPG to the Western RPG. And I can say with certainty that modern MMORPG's RPG element is a joke.2 -
AlextheMuspel✭✭✭AlextheMuspel wrote: »AlextheMuspel wrote: »I don't think age has all that much to do with what one tolerates. If one was to generalize; older people have had more time to conclude what they are willing to deal with. While younger people just except the situation. Of course since it's a generalization it's probably wrong anyway. Just like the statistics from super data are probably wrong.
I have always gotten a laugh out of the thought that there weren't any "Old" gamers in whatever game I was playing. Gaming as it is today got here because of the old timers. You don't really think that they stopped playing do you? No, they're just continuing to have fun. Without telling everyone that they are here.
I decided at a young age that if growing up was becoming old and cranky like my dad and his cronies, I just wasn't going to do it. At 57 I still get comments about it and it makes me happy.... lol
Where generalization exists, exceptions always co-exist. Nonetheless, exceptions do not invalidate the generalization, just like the bell curve suggests. Based on my experience, it's certainly possible for physiologically young people to be "bitter and cranky" (yep, that would be me). I have zero tolerance towards lootboxes, immoral monetizing practices, unfinished products, etc. And sometimes I wonder why people would tolerate those nonsense. One of the answers I came up with is in the original post. Based on the replies in this thread, it appears that older gamers who play the game to chill do have a higher tolerance for (intentional) design flaws.
Wrong again, I fear. The reason older people appear to you to be more tolerant of monetisation is largely because they simply aren't bothered by it as by and large they don't participate in it, and they recognise that such things are down to personal choice. They are in a position in life where they can play the game rather than look for shortcuts (which is all that things like skyshards and skills in the crown store are about).Given that your claimed (but false) reason for their approach to monetisation is that older people don't have as much time to play - when in fact they don't spend 10 hours a day working so most have more time for gaming than they used to have - and given that they tend to have a more stable income with fewer overheads (mortgage paid off, children largely self-sufficient etc), they are more likely to have a multiple months subscription and not be living from one paycheque to another as many your age are doing (and as we all did at that age).
Of course, when you go on to mention "(intentional) design flaws" as well as "immoral monetizing practices" you are turning the entire discussion into an entirely subjective one, and one that is not necessarily anything to do with age, merely one person's understanding of morality versus someone else's, both equally validly held. As we get older, do we tend to become more tolerant of the other person's point of view? Quite possibly, yes.
I don't think there's a definitive "right" or "wrong" for this problem since no one can speak for a group of players. I'd prefer more inclusive terms instead of a straight "true or false".
However, what I can say with certainty is "wrong" is your understanding of my post. When I claim "older player don't have much time to play", I specified it's the 30-49 year-old age group, which is above the average 33-year-old. I also said somewhere else in this thread that the 60-79-year-old age group will have more time to play after their retirement.
Convicting "right" or "wrong" comes after reviewing the other's arguments.
I was referring to your original post, in which you said:-AlextheMuspel wrote: »Moreover, a LOT of players seem to come from the EQ era, meaning that they've probably played this genre for decades. They seem more tolerable towards the game company's monetization practices. I thought about why this is the case, and I came up with the following answer: they probably don't have much time to devote to gaming. At the moment, ESO is possibly the only game that they regularly play now, so their tolerance is higher.
I was a bit hasty while writing the original post. The answer consists of two parts; it's either 1) Not much time to devote to gaming, or 2) ESO is the only game they've devoted to right now. The 1st answer applies to the working-age group (30-49), and the 2nd applies to anyone who is older than 30-year-old with or without a lot of time off work.0 -
ebix_✭✭✭✭Age is a number , old age is a state of mind. END TIME IS COMING WE ALL DIE !!
Edited by ebix_ on March 13, 2021 11:09PM3 -
cynicalbutterfly✭✭✭✭I'm 30, turning 31 in a few weeks. I don't see an age gap. All I see are players enjoying a game. Some grumble and some don't. Tolerance has nothing to do with age. It's all about each person's view on the situation. There's a few things that could indeed be better on ESO but hey they're trying. It gets updated regularly and as far as I can see they're doing a pretty damn good job despite the grumbling. You can't make everyone happy.
I used to play an mmo that was fun but severely lacked the support and updates it needed. It is now shutdown over a very grueling slow decline. So whether I like an update for ESO or not, at least they tried. And they keep trying. Most that make their opinions known (very loudly) seem to have a sense of entitlement that really confounds me. But that's just my two cents and you can do whatever you want with them.0 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭To be honest, this is a bit like shouting into the void.
"ESO and all other MMOs are outdated and not modern games!"
I mean, whatever. I have no idea what specific things you are talking about, and the things I associate with "modern" games are lootboxes, "game as service", renting games instead of buying them, and a whole lot of other shady stuff. So what are those fancy new things that modern games do leagues better?
I don't necessarily doubt that - ESO is going into its 7th year soon, development started well before Skyrim was even released: ESO is ancient, in video game terms. I kind of expect it to be somewhat dated. But I have no idea what specifically you're talking about.
And I don't know - calling out Imperials for being "pay to win" just because they might be marginally better for some small part of the content until the next shake-up (emphasis on "might" and "marginally" and "small"): I'm a bit skeptical about the grasp of the bigger picture there.
Late 40s.1 -
Red_Feather✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I quit everquest and wow because I hated subscription games that used time sinks. It felt crooked.0 -
Red_Feather✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I forgot to mention that I am old. I think the model this game uses is better than the old days. But I think the crown store prices are really high. So really high it feels wrong.0
