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Do you want to turn PVP into a skill-less Call of Duty game for six months?
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Hawco10✭✭✭✭PVP has never been about sets. Never.
Know what separates a good pvper from a bad one ? Timing. And lag screws with timing. What we have now is mindless zergs running round with no clue. They get killed and then spam the forums looking for nerfs. Wondering why they get wiped so easily in their golded out gear.3 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PVP has never been about sets. Never.
Know what separates a good pvper from a bad one ? Timing. And lag screws with timing. What we have now is mindless zergs running round with no clue. They get killed and then spam the forums looking for nerfs. Wondering why they get wiped so easily in their golded out gear.
How is this any different than before? You’ll tell me that all the proc sets made those zergs less mindless?PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -2 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭StaticWave wrote: »Knowing what set works and what set doesn't is a part of game knowledge.
Many people were saying they couldn't beat Harbinger tanks yet were only trying with Direct Damage. They weren't saying Buff DoTs, they said Harbinger's shouldn't exist, it's impossible to beat.
Edited by Urzigurumash on March 10, 2021 9:50PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's not about knowing "what set works" but "how sets work", of course that is part of game knowledge. Just a consideration, I don't disagree with much of the rest of your argument. Of course I agree if it's impossible for the best players to be as competitive as anybody in Spriggan's and Hunding's, it's not right. This player would know to stop hitting a block tank with Direct Damage and Harbinger's would only function against him as a true tank - defending his team-mates against damage.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
GrimTheReaper45✭✭✭✭✭Have some thoughts on this.
1) Im not on pc so I didnt get to see the tests. From what I heard all proc sets are disabled? Including buffs and support? Is that correct? Damaging proc sets needed to go, however I dont think buff or support proc sets is what players wanted. The positive feedback about the tests was from the damaging procs being removed not all of them. I hope when zos said they are working on code to redefine campaign rules it is to separate these types of proc sets from the damaging ones and to allow them to be active again.
2) I take issue with saying that removing proc sets makes pvp less skillful. Proc sets and some heavy armor set ups are in my opinion not great for pvp and dont encourage skill.
3) As for performance, None of these things are fixing the problem because none of them are approaching the issue. The issue is faction stacking, not group size but multiple groups coming together. Zos needs to discourage faction stacking and encourage playing the map.
Weve seen a change in cyrodil from the beginning of this game to now. At the beginning the objective of cyrodil was who is winning the campaign, it was owning the map. You didnt want the whole server at one keep or zerging down a chain of keeps because you were guaranteed to loose the map if you did that. You wanted groups spread out, able to respond to callouts and flags. Slowly over the the years for various reasons, that objective has become irrelevant. Now the main objective of cyrodil is more like chase ap and kill players. The best way to do that is get in a giant ball of players, steam roll a chain of keeps.
Some suggestions
- Encourage playing the map, reestablish this as the thing to do in cyrodil
- Make end of campaign rewards matter much more with placing first being a focus. Or even rewards of the worthy much better and more important if your alliance is in first place.
- Discourage faction stacking.
- AP needs to be less of more than one or two groups are present.
- AP needs to a lot worse with the less keeps you own.
- Seperate cyrodil more whether that be make keeps flag earlier, decrease mount stamina or major gallop. Make getting keep to keep less easy so groups have to be in that area.
- Make player magnets less appealing. Last emp keep, scrolls, hammer. These all attract a major portion of the factions to one area. Remove hammer, make scrolls and emp over all less important.3 -
Crom_CCCXVI✭✭✭✭✭It's been years in the making..
it started with Executes, then harder hitting skills, and then dots, and now procs....
the only people the mods listening to are these rock kiting streamers who run around trying to 1 v x for 8 hours and never step foot into an objective- and anytime someone hits them for more than 10k the game is broke and something needs nerfed!
I constantly run up on these groups where 6 guys are chasing 1 kiter and they can't kill him. I've been running execute builds for years, (the kind that can do 15k damage but aren't real good in sustain).... and i kill these guys. These are the builds they have been nerfing for years....... they want a game where every attack hits for 3k and whomever hits the other person 10x first wins.5 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »Have some thoughts on this.
1) Im not on pc so I didnt get to see the tests. From what I heard all proc sets are disabled? Including buffs and support? Is that correct? Damaging proc sets needed to go, however I dont think buff or support proc sets is what players wanted. The positive feedback about the tests was from the damaging procs being removed not all of them. I hope when zos said they are working on code to redefine campaign rules it is to separate these types of proc sets from the damaging ones and to allow them to be active again.
2) I take issue with saying that removing proc sets makes pvp less skillful. Proc sets and some heavy armor set ups are in my opinion not great for pvp and dont encourage skill.
3) As for performance, None of these things are fixing the problem because none of them are approaching the issue. The issue is faction stacking, not group size but multiple groups coming together. Zos needs to discourage faction stacking and encourage playing the map.
Weve seen a change in cyrodil from the beginning of this game to now. At the beginning the objective of cyrodil was who is winning the campaign, it was owning the map. You didnt want the whole server at one keep or zerging down a chain of keeps because you were guaranteed to loose the map if you did that. You wanted groups spread out, able to respond to callouts and flags. Slowly over the the years for various reasons, that objective has become irrelevant. Now the main objective of cyrodil is more like chase ap and kill players. The best way to do that is get in a giant ball of players, steam roll a chain of keeps.
Some suggestions
- Encourage playing the map, reestablish this as the thing to do in cyrodil
- Make end of campaign rewards matter much more with placing first being a focus. Or even rewards of the worthy much better and more important if your alliance is in first place.
- Discourage faction stacking.
- AP needs to be less of more than one or two groups are present.
- AP needs to a lot worse with the less keeps you own.
- Seperate cyrodil more whether that be make keeps flag earlier, decrease mount stamina or major gallop. Make getting keep to keep less easy so groups have to be in that area.
- Make player magnets less appealing. Last emp keep, scrolls, hammer. These all attract a major portion of the factions to one area. Remove hammer, make scrolls and emp over all less important.
A lot of good points in here.
I especially like the idea of attempting to incentivize players to spread out over the map.
It would certainly take a great of thinking to redesign the reward system and game out various exploitation contingencies but simply increasing the end-of-campaign rewards would be a fantastic place to start.3 -
SimonBelmont✭✭✭I don't understand the rational behind claiming that proc sets require no skill. Sure, there are a few that are able to proc so frequently that the player wearing them needn't bother to plan around what will proc the set (or when the set will proc on it's own). Talking about those with CDs between 3-4 sec. There may be a need for numbers to be adjusted there, no doubt..
But anything with a 6+ sec CD; and you actually do have to plan around that. It can be quite fiddly too! It's not like you're wearing a bot-backpack.
And if you think that proc sets win fights for you, with no real effort required on your part, I dare you to put that theory to the test! And I don't mean looking at your own death recap. Farm the sets and try em out. You may be surprised how NOT effortless they will make PvP for you.
Even in Crimson & Leeching, you can get gibbed much like anyone else..
Speaking of skill-free, how bout them combat pets, eh? Pretty much any combat pet in this game is going to have as much, if not more impact on PvP, than any proc set is. Like, pets that can CC? That's some bs...Edited by SimonBelmont on March 11, 2021 4:13PM2 -
novemberhhh✭✭✭i liked pressing lmb so 3x proc sets went "brrrrrrrrt" at once tho, skillful gameplay at its best
then i had to go afk for 20 sec to wait on their cooldowns, engaging gameplay at its best
repeat
...4041 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »So in other words, you mean like an interrupt for procs and/or a cast-time on them or something? All damage procs effectiveness is reduced just like all damage skills, other than Cowardice / Weakening.
Yep. Maybe a new status effect, or poison people can slot that affects proc damage/healing or affects procs from firing for x=amount of seconds. Something, anything really that we can use to hard counter it. There was never a need for a hard counter before since most procs had a %% chance to fire (When you attack, you have a 10% chance to deal yada yada..) So these sets could work GREAT when they fired off...IF they fired off...but were inconsistent. That was essentially the hard counter to them. But when Greymoor dropped, ZOS essentially removed that "hard counter" by changing their proc chance to 100%, which no longer makes it a proc (random occurrence), but additional damage. Similar to how Sergeants adds extra damage to your heavy attacks, procs now add extra damage when you attack except...they keep doing damage after you attack, and some of them don't require you to attack, they trigger on their own.
So ZOS removed the thing that balanced proc sets (random chance), without adding a new thing to directly counter them.1 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Yeah that is what player skill means, I definitely agree. Having to manually do all your damage and healing without ZOS's intervention.
Sure, but in this regard what exactly is the difference between Zaan's and an Enchantment or Alchemical Poison?
About 20k damage I reckon...2 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Knowing what set works and what set doesn't is a part of game knowledge.
Many people were saying they couldn't beat Harbinger tanks yet were only trying with Direct Damage. They weren't saying Buff DoTs, they said Harbinger's shouldn't exist, it's impossible to beat.
I think people take issue to a near unkillable build that requires you to hold down one button to kill your opponents for participating in PvP.2 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »It's been years in the making..
it started with Executes, then harder hitting skills, and then dots, and now procs....
the only people the mods listening to are these rock kiting streamers who run around trying to 1 v x for 8 hours and never step foot into an objective- and anytime someone hits them for more than 10k the game is broke and something needs nerfed!
I constantly run up on these groups where 6 guys are chasing 1 kiter and they can't kill him. I've been running execute builds for years, (the kind that can do 15k damage but aren't real good in sustain).... and i kill these guys. These are the builds they have been nerfing for years....... they want a game where every attack hits for 3k and whomever hits the other person 10x first wins.
What ever you think about their personal playstyle if they are killing multiple players whilst surviving outnumbered they clearly understand PvP. Who do you think is more qualified to give their opinion on balance? The person who got farmed by them?
I am not saying the game should be balanced for players who 1 v X, just that their opinion is arguably more valid than those complaining about it.5 -
Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zergs will leave soon. Double AP finished.
You'll find 'reasonable' game play in PvP (Vanilla or not) fairly soon.
Performance though....who knows.
Tests?....No it's a meta.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SimonBelmont wrote: »I don't understand the rational behind claiming that proc sets require no skill. Sure, there are a few that are able to proc so frequently that the player wearing them needn't bother to plan around what will proc the set (or when the set will proc on it's own). Talking about those with CDs between 3-4 sec. There may be a need for numbers to be adjusted there, no doubt..
But anything with a 6+ sec CD; and you actually do have to plan around that. It can be quite fiddly too! It's not like you're wearing a bot-backpack.
And if you think that proc sets win fights for you, with no real effort required on your part, I dare you to put that theory to the test! And I don't mean looking at your own death recap. Farm the sets and try em out. You may be surprised how NOT effortless they will make PvP for you.
Even in Crimson & Leeching, you can get gibbed much like anyone else..
Speaking of skill-free, how bout them combat pets, eh? Pretty much any combat pet in this game is going to have as much, if not more impact on PvP, than any proc set is. Like, pets that can CC? That's some bs...
Just to clarify you are saying it takes equal skill to light attack every 6 seconds as it does to line up 4-6 skills?
For instance this is a build made as a meme when unleashed was first announced in stonethorns patch notes: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=284300
It does 80-100k dot from one attack. In PvP this is a measly 40-50k though... Meanwhile this is a necro with nearly 30k resists, 40k health and 2.5k stam regen. To do the same damage with a stat build with 20k resists, 25k health and 3 damage sets. You would need to do 2 BBS and at least 3 dizzys this is 5 GCDs.
Tell me which requires more skill? Which do you think is more tricky to play?6 -
Dunning_Kruger✭✭✭✭Seeing a whole lot of me in these comments____________________________________
A G G R O - the legendary stamplar GM of <HALL MONITORS>
For the Queen bby2 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Yeah that is what player skill means, I definitely agree. Having to manually do all your damage and healing without ZOS's intervention.
Sure, but in this regard what exactly is the difference between Zaan's and an Enchantment or Alchemical Poison?
About 20k damage I reckon...
Right, so it puts Zaan's into the category of "more powerful than skills", but it still shares the category "free unscaled damage that occurs off a light attack" with Enchantments and Poisons.relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Knowing what set works and what set doesn't is a part of game knowledge.
Many people were saying they couldn't beat Harbinger tanks yet were only trying with Direct Damage. They weren't saying Buff DoTs, they said Harbinger's shouldn't exist, it's impossible to beat.
I think people take issue to a near unkillable build that requires you to hold down one button to kill your opponents for participating in PvP.
PvE bosses take issue with tanks too, clearly. That's the point of the set. They can be beat.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Lamagrokie✭✭✭For everyone who can't play without proc sets
Disabling proc sets - perfect opportunity to measure your own skill;
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Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lamagrokie wrote: »Disabling proc sets - perfect opportunity to measure your own skill;
I agree, I'm looking forward to it personally, despite believing that ultimately all sets should be available in PvP.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Yeah that is what player skill means, I definitely agree. Having to manually do all your damage and healing without ZOS's intervention.
Sure, but in this regard what exactly is the difference between Zaan's and an Enchantment or Alchemical Poison?
About 20k damage I reckon...
Right, so it puts Zaan's into the category of "more powerful than skills", but it still shares the category "free unscaled damage that occurs off a light attack" with Enchantments and Poisons.relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Knowing what set works and what set doesn't is a part of game knowledge.
Many people were saying they couldn't beat Harbinger tanks yet were only trying with Direct Damage. They weren't saying Buff DoTs, they said Harbinger's shouldn't exist, it's impossible to beat.
I think people take issue to a near unkillable build that requires you to hold down one button to kill your opponents for participating in PvP.
PvE bosses take issue with tanks too, clearly. That's the point of the set. They can be beat.
I answered your question regarding the difference between a glyph/poison and zaan. The answer is about 20k damage. Merciless also proc glyphs or poisons though wearing unleashed it will place a 30k dot...45k if you have maelstrom 2h. If I had the choice between the 3k glyph and the 45k combined proc I know which one I'd prefer to be hit by. What are your thoughts behind comparing them? They are incomparable in terms of balance.
[snip] We are likening builds to pve bosses and consider this a form of balance?
[Edited for Baiting]
Edited by Psiion on March 11, 2021 10:02PM1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭relentless_turnip wrote: »What are your thoughts behind comparing them? They are incomparable in terms of balance.
Read my reply about Zaan's againXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
angrydrew✭✭✭Dont know why people slagg off proc sets it is a part of the game that people payed for with the dlc and content just because a few people prefer to use add-ons that tell them when to BLOCK-DODGE-repeat does not actually make them experts EVERYBODY should be able to play no matter how so-long as they have fun(without slagging others in the process)even if they are not experts.so reel your kneck in self proclaimed i ams it is a game and we all payed for it soo suck it up.apart from that Eso fix the PvP content so we can paly it LAGG free,i am not any good at the game at the best of times but the lagg makes my toon look good.4
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Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭relentless_turnip wrote: »We are likening builds to pve bosses and consider this a form of balance?
The Harbinger tank is not the PvE boss, the person attacking them is. Is anybody unable to attack a target because somebody procced Crusher and Alkosh on them?
Have you tried Vanguard's Challenge?
Edited by Urzigurumash on March 11, 2021 10:33PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭So perhaps you say, "There's no skill in running a Harbinger tank."
But is there skill in beating one?Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In what way does removing the dependence on bonuses from FOTM sets, thereby leaving combat to be determined by player ability, result in a skill-less game?Edited by Tandor on March 11, 2021 10:43PM3 -
Lamagrokie wrote: »For everyone who can't play without proc sets
Disabling proc sets - perfect opportunity to measure your own skill;
Aren't you dependent on "suit" or "proc sets" when you complain about proc sets like what tony stark said?0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Looking at stamplar as an example, potl still deals crap damage and is pretty much the worst burst skill in the game.
I can, err jab people, yay!
At least with skill damage way up I can rely on hard hitting dbs, but that's about it.
Meanwhile my stamcro just poops out 8-9k Blastbones every few seconds like it's nothing.
Very skill, much gameplay.
Thing a lot of people don't realize is that procsets allowed a lot of specs to be more competitive, even tho their class toolkit was heavily neutered by Zos.
I like all the ppl claiming these billion dmg spectral bows on magblade and how great it is.
Yeah sure, it still takes one dodgeroll to counter that class' entire offensive kit.
I'm so glad they brought back "skill" into the game.
I'm not aganist Stat based builds, in fact I hated how proc damage sets operated, but it really is leaving a lot of specs in the dirt when their toolkit is so bad, and they can't complement it with sets.
Also we haven't had any combat related skill lines added since summerset, so build variety mainly came from sets.
I looked at proc damage sets as additional skills, that you can get from.sets.
If Zos decided to actually balance these sets as such, with proper scaling mechanics, proc damage sets would've been fine.
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marius_buys✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well I can only speak for my guild, but guild run attendance have tripled since the no-proc set test and campaign. Enough said.Golden Clover AD PvP on PC EU (since 2017) Guildex https://eso.guildex.org/view-guild/17669 Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/1312113207951964 -
pavlaprovaz✭✭If anything, winning at pvp without proc sets is skillFUL in my opinion. Relying on proc sets to do the work for you requires less skill.
That is a very oversimplistic statement. Winning in pvp fight is much more complex matter. You have to count what classes were involved, the number of players, grouped vs randoms players etc. People keep parroting simple conclusions without ever thinking deeper or thinking on their own at all. Since the test started in my experience the changes encourage mostly 1 effect in Cyro and that is faction stacking and more zerging. With the new CP it's getting even worse. Passive Damage mitigation is lowered in general but sieges do the same damage so now whoever controls any keep can easily sit on it and just keep on defending it with sieges. If anyone wants to take it, needs to come with faction zerg or pvdoor it. What you'll see now is more stale pvp. Atm pvp is about just waiting and waiting for faction to activate the zerg mode and then having an hour or so of feeling great about our skills in the middle of the zerg. Proc sets need to be adjusted but having 19 sets forced on unballanced classses out of which some suffer from the selection more than others, is not the way to go in my opinion.1 -
Rastapasta✭✭✭The silent majority cheers at the decision of banning autoproc sets for six months. (hopefully permanently.)
To the complainers; learn how to play without, its more challenging .
Next good thing would be banning the players who breach the cast timer table.
They are the ones provoking the pvp servers to go beserk, since the system tries to pick up data they can't,
reason why your death data results never matches the health your toon has.
(to explain ; your toon has 35K health , you have been hit for 25 K but your death .... how comes.
cheers1