P2W confirmed

linuxlady · March 2021

hafgood wrote: »

What are you on about? Selling crowns to get gold would not qualify as P2W, it doesn't come close. P2W is where you buy stuff with real money that can only be bought with real money that give you an advantage.

Buying gold - the actual in game currency- hardly qualifies as P2W. You can make that 14 million gold you claim you need simply by trading in the game, without much effort I make 500k to a million every week, I could make more. So in say 20 weeks I would have the same amount of gold at no cost.

So buying gold with crowns can not be considered P2W.

If you are that desperate to get to 1800CP then spend your money, I'd rather have my money in my pocket and earn my gold through the game.

in fact i am sitting on 21 mil i mostly saved from doing daily crafting and writs and selling mats with the off hand selling of crowns left over from eso plus from time to time. 21 mil. when i hit 30 i am buying the rest of the crating sets that i haven't yet earned with writ vouchers... then i'll think about how to buy mundus stones with in game gold . ps i have 16 crafting sets so far of the 60+ in game crafting sets.

nublife01 · March 2021

Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »

nublife01 wrote: »

You have to be at least 1400 cp to not get completely rolled by anyone 1400+ cp in cp pvp. It's a hard cutoff. If you're not that level of cp, cp pvp is not fun. Also in Imperial City you need the CP advantage to kill the bosses. So if you were at the previous 810 cap as most pvp players are as you dont gain that much cp in pvp, and want to do IC pvp whatsoever you need to go grind at an absolute minimum 600 levels of cp. This change was absolutely disgusting. I'm quitting the game because of it.

I'm CP 700 and doing fine in PvP. Yes, the power gap is bigger now and it creates a higher goal I can want to reach now. To each their own, I guess.

This doesn't include zerging. Go duel a 1400cp player in CP IC and come back to me.

nublife01 · March 2021

virtus753 wrote: »

nublife01 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Or you know, you could just not worry about your CP level and just play the game and let the CP come on its own.

Ill never understand the obsession with being at max level to the point where you just cant enjoy anything else in the game

You have to be at least 1400 cp to not get completely rolled by anyone 1400+ cp in cp pvp. It's a hard cutoff. If you're not that level of cp, cp pvp is not fun. Also in Imperial City you need the CP advantage to kill the bosses. So if you were at the previous 810 cap as most pvp players are as you dont gain that much cp in pvp, and want to do IC pvp whatsoever you need to go grind at an absolute minimum 600 levels of cp. This change was absolutely disgusting. I'm quitting the game because of it.

I apologize for having fun in PvP last night at CP 1380. My bad.

Lol yea if youre near 1400 youre not feeling it. But it is baaaaaaadddddd.

AlextheMuspel · March 2021

josiahva wrote: »

AlextheMuspel wrote: »

Let's say you're at the previous cap right now, 810cp.

And now you need to get to 1800cp to reach the soft cap in cp PvP.

Required experience: 434,706,350xp - 103,096,531xp = 331,609,819xp
(Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hk7TKR39KzwEOlbbLMRJRx90O1PEgCERrgEDC1pubPA/edit#gid=0)

Now, assuming if you want to reach that soft cap asap, the fastest method is master writs, which grants you 50k xp without any boost. In an ideal scenario, most people would probably save them till 100%xp boost event, and drink a 150% exp bonus ambrosia when turning in those writs. Now, we have 50k * (100+150+10(with ESO+)) +50k= 180k xp

How many writs do you need to do in order to reach 1800cp from 810cp? That's 331,609,819/180,000 = 1842.3 writs

This part gets a bit tricky, because you'd wanna pick the cheapest writs to do as all the writs grant the same xp. The best deal you can probably find on market is Enchanting writs, for Alchemy writs/Provisioning writs are extremely hard to acquire and overpriced. If you're patient, you can accumulate bunch of Enchanting writs at an average price of 4k gold. The crafting cost for a purple one is around 300g, and you get 2 tickets in return. That's 2k gold if 1 voucher = 1k gold.

As a former trader, I'd say it would take you at least 1 year to check EVERY SINGLE DAY to get 1000 writs at that price.

More realistically speaking, 1 writ = 8000 gold if you take all the factors into consideration, and that's the optimistic estimation. In that case, 8000*1843 = 14,744,000 gold.

With the TCE exchange rate, 1 crown = 400 gold, 14,744,000 gold = 36860 crowns = $368.6 irl money

With 260% xp boost, no enlightenment, and you have to spend $368.6 irl money to reach the soft cap of cp PvP.

Now you might start to understand why they refuse to adjust your cp level based on your earned experience. It's all $$$.

LMAO, are you serious? Have you ever played a PTW game? There are so many fallacies here that its not even funny:

1. There are MANY ways to gain experience in this game, some of the most efficient aren't even locked behind DLC(Skyreach, etc). So if you chose to use XP potions and master writs that's on you...you are also completely ignoring the writ vouchers you get that you can use to buy crafting stations and the like...but that's a different subject.
2. No one is forcing you to play in CP PvP to begin with...CP PvP is miserable, it takes forever to kill anyone at cap, and if you aren't at cap yourself, you are just handicapping yourself by playing there to start with.
3. This isn't a race...it really does not matter if you reach cap in 2 days or 20 years...there are plenty of things to do in game other than CP PvP.
4. Let me explain to you what PTW means...I played a PTW game....guess what? In a true PtW game the best equipment, the best stats are ONLY available by paying...there is NO IN GAME WAY TO GET THEM...that is what pay to win means....that if you don't pay, you can't win against players that do with everything else being equal(skill, etc)...NOT that if you don't pay it might take you a little longer to max out your stats.

People who complain about ESO being PTW just do not know what they are talking about. Once you buy this game, you can very well reach the same level as other end game players given time...if you actually care about reaching that level. I am sorry if it offends you that it may take awhile to reach the level you want to be at.

Oh trust me I have TONS of experience with P2W games so that I basically have PTSD of them now. But this DOES quality as P2W even tho the implementation is subtle.

I said 1 voucher = 1000g is TAKEN into the calculation. Forget about crafting stations, the best selling item is research time-1day. 3000g on trader = insta sale.

Good luck collecting cheap master writs as everyone is hoarding them now

I KNOW what I'm talking about. I was in one of the WORST P2W games 11 years ago, surrounded by millionaires who spent tens of thousands of dollars in the game. It's a Chinese game so you probably haven't heard of it.

However, aside from the few millionaires, most players are working folks who throw most of their income into the game. It's painstaking and absolutely SUCKS, as the community feels dreary and gloomy. After 11 years, the only players left are those rich people, who were left to live their fantasy among themselves.

https://theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/10/why-we-compete/403201/

It's human nature to be competitive. Big corporations ALWAYS utilize this trait to monetize. It's being going on for years now, hardly news anymore.

AlextheMuspel · March 2021

[/quote]

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

AlextheMuspel wrote: »

Sju wrote: »

When will people understand what p2w really is? If it can be earned in-game without being forced to spend real money, then it is not p2w...

"Pay to Win". You can pay irl money to gain an advantage and win over other players. If this is not P2W I don't know what is. Yes it's subtle, but it fits the definition. And trust me, I have TONS of experience with P2W games.

Pay To Win is when 1) you can only get the thing by paying real cash, and 2) it's better than what a player can get via in-game means. i.e, when, in order to Win, you have to Pay.

(and really, there also has to be some meaningful competitive activity that the paid advantage helps you with. Like loot-the-corpse open-world pvp. Just being able to say "I've got Moar DPS than you!", when both of you already have twice the DPS needed to clear the dungeon, doesn't really cut it.)

Oreyn explains quite well:

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I will say what I say every time there is a P2W thread on this forum, which is quite often.

Sidebar: Thanks for the math. I have about 400 master writs saved up, looks like I am going to keep up with my crafting writs until the next double AP event (at that point, I just might retire from them). I wasnt sure how much XP they granted, and if it mattered which type you did.

P2W is not a binary term, but rather, it is a spectrum. You certainly cannot buy a unique item in the crownstore that makes you uber strong that you cant get in any other way. For some people, anything short of that is not P2W.

I find that to be a very narrow definition of a very broad concept. Truthfully, I think most people defend that at as the only definition out of pride/ego, because they refuse to admit to themselves that they play or contribute to a game that is on the P2W spectrum.

To me, you have to define two terms. Pay and Win. Pay is obvious. It costs hard cash. Win is far more subjective, especially in an MMO. That said, there are lots of ways to win. Perhaps a duel, a world first HM clear, a #1 leaderboard spot, etc. The real question is will paying give you a competitive advantage in those situations, and the answer is a resounding yes.

-Using cash to buy CP gives a massive advantage now that the cap has been raised, especially in PVP or leaderboard runs. All else equal, skill, build, etc, the person or group with the most CP is going to win a head to head fight.
-If going for a world first on patch day, it may well be in your interest to buy a new skill line if say a new class was released and redefines the meta.

Now I think ZOS does a very good job of keeping Obvious pay 2 win items (maybe a staff that grants 2k spell damage) out of the crown store, and that is a good thing. But this game has been on the spectrum ever since they allowed crown gifting because it is a direct avenue to convert cash to gold, and gold can give you a competitive advantage. Is ESO high on the p2w spectrum, not in my opinion. That said, it is certainly on it somewhere.

Waits for heads to predictably explode.

linuxlady · March 2021

virtus753 wrote: »

AlextheMuspel wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

But since you can't buy CP, or writs, with crowns, this entire conversation is irrelevant.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/430760/discord-tamriel-crown-exchange-crown-store-items-for-gold-over-10-mil-crowns-traded

You can, and very easily, in fact. Crowns buy gold, gold buy writs, simple.

But you haven’t said to which definition of pay to win you subscribe. If it’s the definition in which you *must* pay with real money to progress, this isn’t it, since you can get those things free in game with time. If it’s the definition where you can pay with real money to skip the time investment, but can’t actually obtain anything not obtainable for free eventually, then you’re going to face a lot of disagreement on your premise. At that point there’s no way to have any sort of discussion or debate, since common definitions can’t be agreed upon.

Truly we can't even agree on the facts in this forum.

P2W really means you have to buy something with real world money that you can't get otherwise in the game

P4C (pay for convenience) is perhaps despicable to many as well but lets call it what it is P4C is in fact paying real world money to bypass something we find to be inconvenient to play in the game - in the case of this thread that would be grinding to cp 1800. ESO has many P4C features and that is a fact. I who am poor and on a disability income have it shoved in my face quite often, but since i am home all day with 7 cats with varying degrees of feralness ranging from getting my hand smacked with claws exposed for handing out a food bowl to that lap of yours is mine and mine alone, i choose to spend the time. That's a choice i make because i have priorities that suck up all my money - like food and litter for my fur fam. We all make choices in life and i think we shouldn't hate on others for making choices different than ours - that would be envy to be honest about it. So if you think P4C is despicable i'm ok with you saying that. But lets be real and call it what it is...

AlextheMuspel · March 2021

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

AlextheMuspel wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

When will people understand what p2w really is? If it can be earned in-game without being forced to spend real money, then it is not p2w...

"Pay to Win". You can pay irl money to gain an advantage and win over other players. If this is not P2W I don't know what is. Yes it's subtle, but it fits the definition. And trust me, I have TONS of experience with P2W games.

[Snip]

P2W is a spectrum.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I will say what I say every time there is a P2W thread on this forum, which is quite often.

Sidebar: Thanks for the math. I have about 400 master writs saved up, looks like I am going to keep up with my crafting writs until the next double AP event (at that point, I just might retire from them). I wasnt sure how much XP they granted, and if it mattered which type you did.

P2W is not a binary term, but rather, it is a spectrum. You certainly cannot buy a unique item in the crownstore that makes you uber strong that you cant get in any other way. For some people, anything short of that is not P2W.

I find that to be a very narrow definition of a very broad concept. Truthfully, I think most people defend that at as the only definition out of pride/ego, because they refuse to admit to themselves that they play or contribute to a game that is on the P2W spectrum.

To me, you have to define two terms. Pay and Win. Pay is obvious. It costs hard cash. Win is far more subjective, especially in an MMO. That said, there are lots of ways to win. Perhaps a duel, a world first HM clear, a #1 leaderboard spot, etc. The real question is will paying give you a competitive advantage in those situations, and the answer is a resounding yes.

-Using cash to buy CP gives a massive advantage now that the cap has been raised, especially in PVP or leaderboard runs. All else equal, skill, build, etc, the person or group with the most CP is going to win a head to head fight.
-If going for a world first on patch day, it may well be in your interest to buy a new skill line if say a new class was released and redefines the meta.

Now I think ZOS does a very good job of keeping Obvious pay 2 win items (maybe a staff that grants 2k spell damage) out of the crown store, and that is a good thing. But this game has been on the spectrum ever since they allowed crown gifting because it is a direct avenue to convert cash to gold, and gold can give you a competitive advantage. Is ESO high on the p2w spectrum, not in my opinion. That said, it is certainly on it somewhere.

Waits for heads to predictably explode.

virtus753 · March 2021

nublife01 wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

nublife01 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Or you know, you could just not worry about your CP level and just play the game and let the CP come on its own.

Ill never understand the obsession with being at max level to the point where you just cant enjoy anything else in the game

You have to be at least 1400 cp to not get completely rolled by anyone 1400+ cp in cp pvp. It's a hard cutoff. If you're not that level of cp, cp pvp is not fun. Also in Imperial City you need the CP advantage to kill the bosses. So if you were at the previous 810 cap as most pvp players are as you dont gain that much cp in pvp, and want to do IC pvp whatsoever you need to go grind at an absolute minimum 600 levels of cp. This change was absolutely disgusting. I'm quitting the game because of it.

I apologize for having fun in PvP last night at CP 1380. My bad.

Lol yea if youre near 1400 youre not feeling it. But it is baaaaaaadddddd.

I definitely felt those guards hit a lot harder! Even filling out Hardy and the rest of Elemental Aegis isn't going to make that big a difference compared to what I was seeing from mobs in Cyro. It makes me wonder if Preparation is being applied to them at all.

Some player builds were a lot easier to fight against, while others were still tanky and dishing out damage as ever. (I wonder if Strategic Reserve was on their bars, because I never saw them fire off an ult.)

linuxlady wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

AlextheMuspel wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

But since you can't buy CP, or writs, with crowns, this entire conversation is irrelevant.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/430760/discord-tamriel-crown-exchange-crown-store-items-for-gold-over-10-mil-crowns-traded

You can, and very easily, in fact. Crowns buy gold, gold buy writs, simple.

But you haven’t said to which definition of pay to win you subscribe. If it’s the definition in which you *must* pay with real money to progress, this isn’t it, since you can get those things free in game with time. If it’s the definition where you can pay with real money to skip the time investment, but can’t actually obtain anything not obtainable for free eventually, then you’re going to face a lot of disagreement on your premise. At that point there’s no way to have any sort of discussion or debate, since common definitions can’t be agreed upon.

Truly we can't even agree on the facts in this forum.

P2W really means you have to buy something with real world money that you can't get otherwise in the game

P4C (pay for convenience) is perhaps despicable to many as well but lets call it what it is P4C is in fact paying real world money to bypass something we find to be inconvenient to play in the game - in the case of this thread that would be grinding to cp 1800. ESO has many P4C features and that is a fact. I who am poor and on a disability income have it shoved in my face quite often, but since i am home all day with 7 cats with varying degrees of feralness ranging from getting my hand smacked with claws exposed for handing out a food bowl to that lap of yours is mine and mine alone, i choose to spend the time. That's a choice i make because i have priorities that suck up all my money - like food and litter for my fur fam. We all make choices in life and i think we shouldn't hate on others for making choices different than ours - that would be envy to be honest about it. So if you think P4C is despicable i'm ok with you saying that. But lets be real and call it what it is...

A definition is not an authoritative prescription or immutable fact; it is a description of what a word or term is used to mean at a given point in time. ("Meat" was still used of any food -- including vegetarian foods -- as late as the 20th century, by the way, to show you how much definitions can change.) The plurality of definitions for "pay to win" is evident from the posts just in this thread alone. Some people consider pay for convenience as a subset or on the spectrum of pay to win. Others use pay to win to mean what you said. The issue is that there isn't a single, universal, irrefutable definition of the term. There simply isn't an authority to provide one, and when the phrase starts hitting traditional dictionaries (which are again repositories of descriptions, not prescriptions), I suspect they will provide multiple definitions because there's more than one in common use. At least the OED should, as that is the one I know of most concerned with fully covering the definitions of words and phrases. Most others tend to be minimalist.

AlextheMuspel · March 2021

linuxlady wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

AlextheMuspel wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

But since you can't buy CP, or writs, with crowns, this entire conversation is irrelevant.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/430760/discord-tamriel-crown-exchange-crown-store-items-for-gold-over-10-mil-crowns-traded

You can, and very easily, in fact. Crowns buy gold, gold buy writs, simple.

But you haven’t said to which definition of pay to win you subscribe. If it’s the definition in which you *must* pay with real money to progress, this isn’t it, since you can get those things free in game with time. If it’s the definition where you can pay with real money to skip the time investment, but can’t actually obtain anything not obtainable for free eventually, then you’re going to face a lot of disagreement on your premise. At that point there’s no way to have any sort of discussion or debate, since common definitions can’t be agreed upon.

Truly we can't even agree on the facts in this forum.

P2W really means you have to buy something with real world money that you can't get otherwise in the game

P4C (pay for convenience) is perhaps despicable to many as well but lets call it what it is P4C is in fact paying real world money to bypass something we find to be inconvenient to play in the game - in the case of this thread that would be grinding to cp 1800. ESO has many P4C features and that is a fact. I who am poor and on a disability income have it shoved in my face quite often, but since i am home all day with 7 cats with varying degrees of feralness ranging from getting my hand smacked with claws exposed for handing out a food bowl to that lap of yours is mine and mine alone, i choose to spend the time. That's a choice i make because i have priorities that suck up all my money - like food and litter for my fur fam. We all make choices in life and i think we shouldn't hate on others for making choices different than ours - that would be envy to be honest about it. So if you think P4C is despicable i'm ok with you saying that. But lets be real and call it what it is...

I suppose. I also have 2 cats, and my priority is to make irl money so that they can enjoy the best food available on the market. For me, time is more important than money. So pay for convenience is basically a subtle version of P2W for me. It all comes down to one's socioeconomic status in the end.

Flamebait · March 2021

Okay so I just need a clarification here. I personally would say this game is pay for convenience, not pay for win by any measure. Even pay for convenience is actually a stretch since normally in a pay for convenience situation you have to directly pay, not get in-game currency to buy it from someone else who payed, but that part aside for now.

As for the people arguing that this game is pay to win, if I spent say $500 are you telling me that I would then be able to do better in all aspects of this game then say Skinny cheeks or Alcast or HacktheMinotaur or Xynode, or any other person that you choose to name that excels at this game in a field? If the answer is yes then there is a problem, if however the fact that their skill would still trump my money then the game is in no way pay to win. By definition a pay to win game is one where you cannot win without paying for something that cannot be earned in game that gives you an unbeatable advantage over others. I have seen a grand total of 0 items like that in the crown store.

By the way the dictionary definition is this:
TOP DEFINITION
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Daishichi · March 2021

AlextheMuspel wrote: »

...the fastest method is master writs, which grants you 50k xp without any boost.

Dang, I'm getting half of a random run every time I do a Master Writ? I'd never noticed, I do 'em for the vouchers...I gotta time this with my Enlightenment better! Glad I clicked on this thread...

...though I totally disagree with OP's conspiracy theory and echo those chuckling at "winning" in general. Anyone who has seen how badly an 810 can suck knows that maxing CP is not one and the same with being a great (or even competent) player...in fact, that bad PUG pull is probably the kind of player calculating how to skip the most content to get there.

Massacre_Wurm · March 2021

AlextheMuspel wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

AlextheMuspel wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

AlextheMuspel wrote: »

Sju wrote: »

When will people understand what p2w really is? If it can be earned in-game without being forced to spend real money, then it is not p2w...

"Pay to Win". You can pay irl money to gain an advantage and win over other players. If this is not P2W I don't know what is. Yes it's subtle, but it fits the definition. And trust me, I have TONS of experience with P2W games.

[Snip]

Read what ? Max cp in this game is not going to "win" you anything noticeable. And yes i am also "expirienced with P2W games". ESO is not one of them.

P2W is a spectrum.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I will say what I say every time there is a P2W thread on this forum, which is quite often.

Sidebar: Thanks for the math. I have about 400 master writs saved up, looks like I am going to keep up with my crafting writs until the next double AP event (at that point, I just might retire from them). I wasnt sure how much XP they granted, and if it mattered which type you did.

P2W is not a binary term, but rather, it is a spectrum. You certainly cannot buy a unique item in the crownstore that makes you uber strong that you cant get in any other way. For some people, anything short of that is not P2W.

I find that to be a very narrow definition of a very broad concept. Truthfully, I think most people defend that at as the only definition out of pride/ego, because they refuse to admit to themselves that they play or contribute to a game that is on the P2W spectrum.

To me, you have to define two terms. Pay and Win. Pay is obvious. It costs hard cash. Win is far more subjective, especially in an MMO. That said, there are lots of ways to win. Perhaps a duel, a world first HM clear, a #1 leaderboard spot, etc. The real question is will paying give you a competitive advantage in those situations, and the answer is a resounding yes.

-Using cash to buy CP gives a massive advantage now that the cap has been raised, especially in PVP or leaderboard runs. All else equal, skill, build, etc, the person or group with the most CP is going to win a head to head fight.
-If going for a world first on patch day, it may well be in your interest to buy a new skill line if say a new class was released and redefines the meta.

Now I think ZOS does a very good job of keeping Obvious pay 2 win items (maybe a staff that grants 2k spell damage) out of the crown store, and that is a good thing. But this game has been on the spectrum ever since they allowed crown gifting because it is a direct avenue to convert cash to gold, and gold can give you a competitive advantage. Is ESO high on the p2w spectrum, not in my opinion. That said, it is certainly on it somewhere.

Waits for heads to predictably explode.

Sure.
But first , 99% of playerbase dont care about world first HM clear or 1# ladeboard spot. And i am not even talking about duels because there is no 1v1 arena in the game.
Second , being max cp <> guaranteed duel win or 1st HM clear or ladeboard spot. There is simply too many other variables like skill , internet connection . your pc perfomance , your physical condition, build and so on.
Third , there is no noticeable in-game rewards for that. Who cares about 1 peice of gold gear or whatever ?

So yes , you can technically have some competitive advantage TEMPORARILY but 99%+ of people will be like " dont know dont care it doesnt affect me and my gameplay".

So in my world buying max cp right now is the same level of "p2w" as buying ESO+.

virtus753 · March 2021

Flamebait wrote: »

By the way the dictionary definition is this:
TOP DEFINITION
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

1) Urban Dictionary posts do not constitute "the dictionary definition." There is not just one dictionary in the world, and UD is not that one. UD is also not always considered a reputable or authoritative source, as anyone can post anything on there at any time. It's like copy-pasting from Wikipedia without fact-checking (or citing your source). At least Wikipedia has editors.

2) UD contains many other definitions that you're conveniently ignoring, some of which directly conflict with the one you chose to post. Here are some others:

"Pay to Win is a situation in gaming (usually MMOs or Massively Multiplayer Online games) where companies allow you to buy items or advantages with real money that cannot be obtained normally by playing the game.

An exception to the rule is that if an item/advantage can be obtained in-game but the acquisition time is unreasonably long, that can also be considered Pay to Win."

"Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game."

"Any game policy where specific content needed to win is locked behind pay walls. Forcing people to pay, in order to access said content. While none can gain access to the content though other in game methods (combat, trading, etc)"

All of those are different from each other and from what you posted. So if we're going to accept UD as an authority, we have to acknowledge the range of definitions, not just cherrypick one.

linuxlady · March 2021

So after reading this thread it seems i should be charging a premium for making cp 160 training gear eh? yah.

Hapexamendios · March 2021

That's completely optional and not pay to win by any means.

M_Volsung · March 2021

tl;dr : "Everything I don't like is p2w."

Jackey · March 2021

Acquiring that many writs and then doing them would take forever.
Grinding to 1800 is free, you even get paid with loot and it will probably be faster and less boring.

Flamebait · March 2021

virtus753 wrote: »

Flamebait wrote: »

By the way the dictionary definition is this:
TOP DEFINITION
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

1) Urban Dictionary posts do not constitute "the dictionary definition." There is not just one dictionary in the world, and UD is not that one. UD is also not always considered a reputable or authoritative source, as anyone can post anything on there at any time. It's like copy-pasting from Wikipedia without fact-checking (or citing your source). At least Wikipedia has editors.

2) UD contains many other definitions that you're conveniently ignoring, some of which directly conflict with the one you chose to post. Here are some others:

"Pay to Win is a situation in gaming (usually MMOs or Massively Multiplayer Online games) where companies allow you to buy items or advantages with real money that cannot be obtained normally by playing the game.

An exception to the rule is that if an item/advantage can be obtained in-game but the acquisition time is unreasonably long, that can also be considered Pay to Win."

"Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game."

"Any game policy where specific content needed to win is locked behind pay walls. Forcing people to pay, in order to access said content. While none can gain access to the content though other in game methods (combat, trading, etc)"

All of those are different from each other and from what you posted. So if we're going to accept UD as an authority, we have to acknowledge the range of definitions, not just cherrypick one.

Actually it says right at the top that it is the top definition, also all the definitions have already been shown to be false by ESO, so you have made my point. Lets go over the list then and prove it.

Buying items or advantages that cannot be gained by normal play, no such item exists in this game. I can get gold and buy literally anything from the crown store without ever spending money. Also everything on the crown store is cosmetic with the exceptions of XP scrolls and potions that are both easily replaced with crafted versions that are the same. No unreasonable amounts of time required of get any of them, at least not anyone I knows opinion of unreasonable time.

Paying real life currency to beat a player who is better. There is literally a 0-1% chance that I could beat someone who competes for and achieves world firsts and time clears and such, even if I had a good number of CP above them since there is no item in this game that can be purchased that would provide me with so much more power than they have simply from skill, in fact the majority of damage in this game is actually based on skill, knowing rotations and timing and weaving is more than gear and CP by a significant amount.

Specific content needed to win being locked behind pay walls. There is absolutely nothing since again you can trade for anything that you do not have, even chapters and DLC so nothing is locked behind a real money paywall without a method in game to achieve it.

Also this definition is literally the same on virtually every site that has a definition so I really don't feel like arguing about referencing thousands of sites simply to make you happy.

If you find a reputable dictionary that has a significantly different definition then feel free to list it, but I am fine with the ones provided here.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · March 2021

VoidCommander wrote: »

Or if you do daily random normal dungeons on 10 characters every day at 100k xp (no xp buff), you could reach 1800 in 331 days. Using the provisioning perks, and the new green cp for adding 30 minutes to food and drink, you can make a 30 minute 100% ambrosia (20k gold) last 80 minutes instead. At an average 15 minutes per dungeon (and not using those toons for anything else, each ambrosia is good for 5 dungeons). 331 dungeons would then require 66 ambrosias, or 1.320,000 gold, and would reduce the time to 165 days. Yes the grind would be brutal, and it would require a player to have 10 "fake tank ready" toons. So long as you cared enough about the game to get a good damage build (and thus care about cp), you will be fine. Just give it time.

This
Also keep in mind there is 2 double exp event comming in the next few week
The jester festival in the later part of march
And the anniversary event early/mid april

Belegnole · March 2021

Umm, right....well. Geez I got nothing.

Well though convoluted and rather a pain, the OP is more pay to advance than pay to win. Personally I will jump on the pay to win train faster than some others, but even in my book this is really stretching for it.

For example say we suddenly have the hammer of doom (which one hits everything) available in the store for say $20, or even $100. Now the game also has it via some quest line that includes multiple dungeons, yada, yada, yada. Just say that while obtainable outside the store, it would take "FOREVER!" . Now that I would consider PTW even though it may not fit the normal paradigm.

Akinos · March 2021

nublife01 wrote: »

Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »

nublife01 wrote: »

You have to be at least 1400 cp to not get completely rolled by anyone 1400+ cp in cp pvp. It's a hard cutoff. If you're not that level of cp, cp pvp is not fun. Also in Imperial City you need the CP advantage to kill the bosses. So if you were at the previous 810 cap as most pvp players are as you dont gain that much cp in pvp, and want to do IC pvp whatsoever you need to go grind at an absolute minimum 600 levels of cp. This change was absolutely disgusting. I'm quitting the game because of it.

I'm CP 700 and doing fine in PvP. Yes, the power gap is bigger now and it creates a higher goal I can want to reach now. To each their own, I guess.

This doesn't include zerging. Go duel a 1400cp player in CP IC and come back to me.

I've seen 700 cp players beat people wth double their cp and and more in duels. Having more cp doesn't automagically guarantee a win or make you a better player.

remosito · March 2021

you positive it's 50k with no boost?

I thought they give 160k to 240k (depending which writs) with 2x event, eso+ and 150% scroll boosts and enlightenment.

240k/4 = 60k without enlightenment.
60k/3.6 = 16.6k without boosts

11k for the lesser writs.

now maybe your number is with enlightenment. but that doesnt wirk for fast leveling as you could only do like 2 a day before you used up your enlightenment. so 1800 writs wiuld take you like 900 days. more than 2 years.

somebody else mentioned ambrisio and 30mins. get them prov skills and cp skill and its like 80 minutes.

for buying writs. cheapest by far are ww/cl/bs writs imo. bought 1600 in the last few weeks. all around or below(incl. mats) what I should be able to make back by selling voucher stuff.

so it's gonna be a zero gold to maybe 1M gold gained/lost game. depending on how voucher prices develop. ambrosia hype might drive them up.

MaxWacksem · March 2021

You could spend thousands, to be power lved, carried, get the leet gear and still lose every PvP battle you fought.
P2W means a scrub like me could buy the gear/lv/cp and me winning, sorry not happening.
Proc's I understand not being PvP, I throw out 30k damage for blocking? I done PvE with my inferno alone just keep throwing my block, that would pee me off in PvP, not someone buying their way up.

If the game becomes work, it's not a game anymore...

finehair · March 2021

In what world crowns are for 400gold each? In cbm they are for at least 600 each

But yeah I agree with being a mindless aoe spammer at the nearest dolmen and gathering infinite amount of jewelry to deconstruct

trackdemon5512 · March 2021

It's not P2W simply for the fact that you can be CP3600 and still be a TRASH PLAYER.

Unless you pay real world cash and it gives you an advantage that no one else can get (everyone gets free scrolls and can make psijic ambrosia easily rendering this all moot) it's not P2W.

virtus753 · March 2021

Flamebait wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Flamebait wrote: »

By the way the dictionary definition is this:
TOP DEFINITION
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

1) Urban Dictionary posts do not constitute "the dictionary definition." There is not just one dictionary in the world, and UD is not that one. UD is also not always considered a reputable or authoritative source, as anyone can post anything on there at any time. It's like copy-pasting from Wikipedia without fact-checking (or citing your source). At least Wikipedia has editors.

2) UD contains many other definitions that you're conveniently ignoring, some of which directly conflict with the one you chose to post. Here are some others:

"Pay to Win is a situation in gaming (usually MMOs or Massively Multiplayer Online games) where companies allow you to buy items or advantages with real money that cannot be obtained normally by playing the game.

An exception to the rule is that if an item/advantage can be obtained in-game but the acquisition time is unreasonably long, that can also be considered Pay to Win."

"Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game."

"Any game policy where specific content needed to win is locked behind pay walls. Forcing people to pay, in order to access said content. While none can gain access to the content though other in game methods (combat, trading, etc)"

All of those are different from each other and from what you posted. So if we're going to accept UD as an authority, we have to acknowledge the range of definitions, not just cherrypick one.

Actually it says right at the top that it is the top definition, also all the definitions have already been shown to be false by ESO, so you have made my point. Lets go over the list then and prove it.

Buying items or advantages that cannot be gained by normal play, no such item exists in this game. I can get gold and buy literally anything from the crown store without ever spending money. Also everything on the crown store is cosmetic with the exceptions of XP scrolls and potions that are both easily replaced with crafted versions that are the same. No unreasonable amounts of time required of get any of them, at least not anyone I knows opinion of unreasonable time.

Paying real life currency to beat a player who is better. There is literally a 0-1% chance that I could beat someone who competes for and achieves world firsts and time clears and such, even if I had a good number of CP above them since there is no item in this game that can be purchased that would provide me with so much more power than they have simply from skill, in fact the majority of damage in this game is actually based on skill, knowing rotations and timing and weaving is more than gear and CP by a significant amount.

Specific content needed to win being locked behind pay walls. There is absolutely nothing since again you can trade for anything that you do not have, even chapters and DLC so nothing is locked behind a real money paywall without a method in game to achieve it.

Also this definition is literally the same on virtually every site that has a definition so I really don't feel like arguing about referencing thousands of sites simply to make you happy. If you find a reputable dictionary that has a significantly different definition then feel free to list it, but I am fine with the ones provided here.

And Abraham Lincoln said it must be true if it’s posted on the internet, I suppose.

What does “top definition” on UD mean? That a few more people clicked on it or voted it up? That’s like saying forum polls are representative of the player base of ESO and that they can show one of several subjective opinions to be objectively correct.

You haven’t shown that “all the other definitions have been proven false by ESO.” You chose to apply particular definitions and then showed how ESO does not fit them. To say that proves the definitions “false” is circular reasoning: in claiming that if ESO doesn’t fit the definition, then the definition is false, you’re presupposing that ESO is pay to win, when that is the very question at issue. It’s a logical fallacy to assume your conclusion as a premise.

scorpius2k1 · March 2021

I'll be the black sheep here and say that regardless of what technicality is describing a feature "P2W", "P2A", "B2P", it still might as well be in the same category since not every player will have the ability to access what another does with every little feature and piece of content being locked behind a microtransactional paywall. Before pay mechanics were a commonplace thing in games aka "games as a service", all players could achieve and do the same things without having to continually pay their way to advance further (regardless of what it is). ESO is no doubt better than other games in these areas but ZOS is certainly pushing all the limits in this area it can from their playerbase. Being an MMO, ESO needs a lot of funding no doubt so mtx's are a necessity. I personally feel there could be a much better way and more options to go about things like that than constantly being in the players face whether it's a quest which locks out due to DLC, intentional inventory limitations, pay-only cosmetics, or other content. Not to poke a bear here, but WoW does mtx's beautifully as well as properly releases a full expansion (chapter) instead of splitting it into smaller and smaller bits and charging more for the complete content. I really hope the amount of money that players invest into this game will provide the value in return they are looking for, which unfortunately has not yet been my personal experience.
.

Flamebait · March 2021

virtus753 wrote: »

And Abraham Lincoln said it must be true if it’s posted on the internet, I suppose.

What does “top definition” on UD mean? That a few more people clicked on it or voted it up? That’s like saying forum polls are representative of the player base of ESO and that they can show one of several subjective opinions to be objectively correct.

You haven’t shown that “all the other definitions have been proven false by ESO.” You chose to apply particular definitions and then showed how ESO does not fit them. To say that proves the definitions “false” is circular reasoning: in claiming that if ESO doesn’t fit the definition, then the definition is false, you’re presupposing that ESO is pay to win, when that is the very question at issue. It’s a logical fallacy to assume your conclusion as a premise.

I also specifically asked for a definition that does apply. What definition of P2W do you feel applies to this game? Honestly you have gone from defending a position to arguing to argue since you will in no way give a definite example or any definition that would support the argument that ESO is a P2W game.

As for the other definitions, they were the ones posted and I showed why they were not applicable to this game, which means that saying they do apply to this game is false, nothing circular about it. I have no problem with the definitions being correct or false, merely that they are false in being applied to this game. However if you choose to find a definition from another source, then that is up to you, and I will either disagree or change my opinion as dictated by the new information. However people making the claim this game is P2W should have to show why it is in their opinion other than simply saying it is and expecting others to take it as truth with no valid or disprovable reasoning.

renne · March 2021

remosito wrote: »

you positive it's 50k with no boost?

I thought they give 160k to 240k (depending which writs) with 2x event, eso+ and 150% scroll boosts and enlightenment.

240k/4 = 60k without enlightenment.
60k/3.6 = 16.6k without boosts

11k for the lesser writs.

now maybe your number is with enlightenment. but that doesnt wirk for fast leveling as you could only do like 2 a day before you used up your enlightenment. so 1800 writs wiuld take you like 900 days. more than 2 years.

somebody else mentioned ambrisio and 30mins. get them prov skills and cp skill and its like 80 minutes.

for buying writs. cheapest by far are ww/cl/bs writs imo. bought 1600 in the last few weeks. all around or below(incl. mats) what I should be able to make back by selling voucher stuff.

so it's gonna be a zero gold to maybe 1M gold gained/lost game. depending on how voucher prices develop. ambrosia hype might drive them up.

Yeah, they absolutely do not give 50K XP with no boosts.

Flamebait · March 2021

scorpius2k1 wrote: »

I'll be the black sheep here and say that regardless of what technicality is describing a feature "P2W", "P2A", "B2P", it still might as well be in the same category since not every player will have the ability to access what another does with every little feature and piece of content being locked behind a microtransactional paywall. Before pay mechanics were a commonplace thing in games aka "games as a service", all players could achieve and do the same things without having to continually pay their way to advance further (regardless of what it is). ESO is no doubt better than other games in these areas but ZOS is certainly pushing all the limits in this area it can from their playerbase. Being an MMO, ESO needs a lot of funding no doubt so mtx's are a necessity. I personally feel there could be a much better way and more options to go about things like that than constantly being in the players face whether it's a quest which locks out due to DLC, intentional inventory limitations, pay-only cosmetics, or other content. I really hope the amount of money that players invest into this game will provide the value in return they are looking for, which unfortunately has not yet been my personal experience.
.

I would argue that there is really nothing that is locked from any players reach. You can earn in game gold and buy anything that is on the crown store, from the DLC you mention to all the cosmetic items. The inventory is a reward for the subscription, which while convenient is certainly not required to play the game. If a player had purchased all the chapters and DLC they could complete any content in the game with a smaller inventory with no reduced ability compared to anyone else, although perhaps with a bit less convenience.

As for commenting that even cosmetics should not be a pay item, the only way they could even begin to justify that would be to make the game fully forced subscription with no tradable crown items, would you find that preferred? As for finding worth in the money spent, I certainly do, it costs me so little to play this game a year that honestly I don't even notice for the amount of time I spend enjoying it. I also have no problem paying for any service I use so perhaps I am simply a minority nowadays.