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Do you support the planned Racial Passive changes without Free change tokens?
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NoSoup✭✭✭✭✭No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »Furthermore, ZOS recongnises the champ point system costs gold and made those respecs free for everyone and every character to change. So, they can feel free to try out new things.
Okay this is just straight up wrong.
Respecs are not free for everyone and every character to change. Only changing your slottable is. If you want to move around your champion points into different stars it will absolutely cost you gold to do.
Respecs are free for the first 2 weeks, or at least they are meant to be. So I don't believe he/she is straight up wrong, in fact they're pretty much right on the money.Formally SirDopey, lost forum account during the great reset.....2 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »Furthermore, ZOS recongnises the champ point system costs gold and made those respecs free for everyone and every character to change. So, they can feel free to try out new things.
Okay this is just straight up wrong.
Respecs are not free for everyone and every character to change. Only changing your slottable is. If you want to move around your champion points into different stars it will absolutely cost you gold to do.
Respecs are free for the first 2 weeks, or at least they are meant to be. So I don't believe he/she is straight up wrong, in fact they're pretty much right on the money.
Is it free in two weeks and 1 day? No. They mightn't be straight up wrong then, but they're still wrong or at the VERY least twisting the information to fit their argument, because respcs WILL cost gold agin.1 -
NoSoup✭✭✭✭✭No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.robertthebard wrote: »juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »I reposted this after editing. So, if you feel inclined, you can answer what would've been said. Sorry about the mix up. Unfortunately, I was in a hurry and on my way out. I should've answered after I arrived at my destination.
No worries, now we can discuss what was actually said. I like discussions.For me, the main point is this. Charging players money for race tokens because the DEVs changed the racial passives again is unethical. It gets explained further into the comments in many threads including this one by many players. Some good alternatives were proposed.
We all agree to the same ToS when we install and run the game. In that ToS, it states that they can change all or part of the game. Rough paraphrase there, I did not go look for the exact wording, but it's always in there, because stuff like this will always happen.Any change which removes or adds an ability or passive, and which someone pays real money to get it back or get rid of it is unethical.
Regardless, the point you make about proc sets is off topic and irrelevant to the subject at hand. It seems to belong in a PvP thread.
I'm going to need a link to the abilities and passives pages of the store. I've totally missed them in the past. Shuffling the races/classes/skills around is going to be an ongoing thing, and it's not limited to here. The last changes to the game were supposed to be so devastating that they actually did give tokens. I still have all of mine, despite having one of the races that was "nerfed into the ground".Nevertheless, If a player isn't good in PvP his or her set will only get them so far. Generally suggesting PvPer's sets are carrying them is a big assumption on your part which you mentioned in your own message. Players are more than likely freaking out about the cost of golding out more sets... and all the lag and bugs still plaguing Cyrodiil. At least that's what my guildies were going on about the other day. I've seen many competent PvPers in Cyrodiil, and L2P because your sets are gone has nothing to do with this issue here either. Stay on topic please.
As I said in my subsequent post, I was merely providing examples of the "DOOM" that's prevalent in the forums, and it's even got new stuff happening today. The point to that is very much on topic: This is just another "DOOM" thread.If players want to min max who are we to stop them. If they paid for race tokens to have specific abilities and those abilities are gone, or reduced, or new ones are added which are unacceptable for them for multiple reasons they should be compensated. It's not the player's fault the racial passives were changed again.
Furthermore, ZOS recongnises the champ point system costs gold and made those respecs free for everyone and every character to change. So, they can feel free to try out new things. However, when it came to changing racial passives, which they claim they already balanced and cost real money they didn't take the opportunity to do the right thing to make those free, at least not yet. I'm seeing a double standard here.
As I stated before, it's not the player's fault the racial passives need adjusting and it shouldn't cost real money to get back what you had or to get rid of something added which players don't want. ZOS has other ethical options available to them as many players have pointed out in many threads and making these changes cost nothing for players can and should be done.
At the end of the day racial combat passives shouldn't be for sale.
At the end of the day, they're not for sale. There is no page in the store where you can go buy a passive to apply to your character. "But race change tokens" is not a valid argument for what you're saying here. That's not a passive, that's an active decision to completely revamp your character, based on changes that, historically, aren't as bad as the forums paint them out to be. I theorycrafted builds for years in Neverwinter Nights, and DDO. Not so much here, as of yet, although I am dabbling. The problem with theorycrafting is that the meta will shift. Note, I didn't say it might shift, it will shift, and all that work is for naught, if one feels like they have to run the current meta, and nothing else will do.
Based on what you're saying here, any time the meta shifts, whether through game design choices, or through the addition of more gear, ZoS should be handing out race change tokens. They really shouldn't. The problem with chasing the meta is that it is going to require gear chasing, and drastic changes to a character. Min/Max to your heart's content, but understand that, at the end of the day, any costs you incur from doing so are purely voluntary. Nobody is forced to do it, and nobody is forced to change their character every time the meta shifts. They choose to do so, and so, should understand that any expenses incurred are purely on them, not the developers.
The issue isn't with the "Meta" changing. Anyone can go and grind new gear or whatever without too much fuss. Racial changes for balancing can in themselves even be fine. The issue arises when the "balancing" changes the hirachry of races for performing certain roles. All the changes were fine until they hit Orcs, the changes to Orcs have drastically changed the hirachry.
For Stam PVE Orcs have gone from #1 choice to maybe 3rd or 4th, there really is no incentive to remain an Orc as a PVE stam build with the exception of role playing.
For Stam PVP Orcs have gone from on par for #1 to absolute ouright #1 with nothing close to them, especially with the no proc set up for the next 6 months, if you weren't an orc before now you are at a very serious disadvantage.Formally SirDopey, lost forum account during the great reset.....2 -
Arrodisia✭✭✭✭✭No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.Till death do us part. I chose my character because I love everything about Dunmer. There was not a single passive that would have made me choose something else. If numbers meant more to me that developing a three dimensional character with attitude & history, I would be number crunching in a spreadsheet instead of playing ESO.
Honestly though, if doing a race change was important to me, I'd be thinking it costs about the price of a cheap meal in a cheap restaurant. I'd just do it. No big deal.
I think about this change and how it impacts everyone, not myself. I also think about the many reasons players might want to change them. I can understand you may like to choose your character for non combat reasons, but I can also understand others might want those combat passives. Plus, let's look at the flip side. Maybe someone else doesn't want a high elf now because they newly added weapon damage to it. Maybe it ruins that character for them...
Also, a lot of players have more than one character to race and name change
1token = 3,500 crowns
Since when is £20 a cheap meal for 1 person? I'm not saying it's overly expensive either, but in all honesty someone can sit at the local fish n chips for half that and still get come change back.
6 characters =21k crowns near £100
12 characters =42k crowns near £200
18 characters =63k crowns which is near the £300 mark
Real life money for balancing racial combat passives that should be across the board the same or shouldn't exist is too much to ask the players to be patient with, especially when server and game performance issues still haven't been resolved.
Charging real money for changing racial combat passives again and again is unethical. There are ethical alternatives.robertthebard wrote: »juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »I reposted this after editing. So, if you feel inclined, you can answer what would've been said. Sorry about the mix up. Unfortunately, I was in a hurry and on my way out. I should've answered after I arrived at my destination.
No worries, now we can discuss what was actually said. I like discussions.For me, the main point is this. Charging players money for race tokens because the DEVs changed the racial passives again is unethical. It gets explained further into the comments in many threads including this one by many players. Some good alternatives were proposed.
We all agree to the same ToS when we install and run the game. In that ToS, it states that they can change all or part of the game. Rough paraphrase there, I did not go look for the exact wording, but it's always in there, because stuff like this will always happen.Any change which removes or adds an ability or passive, and which someone pays real money to get it back or get rid of it is unethical.
Regardless, the point you make about proc sets is off topic and irrelevant to the subject at hand. It seems to belong in a PvP thread.
I'm going to need a link to the abilities and passives pages of the store. I've totally missed them in the past. Shuffling the races/classes/skills around is going to be an ongoing thing, and it's not limited to here. The last changes to the game were supposed to be so devastating that they actually did give tokens. I still have all of mine, despite having one of the races that was "nerfed into the ground".Nevertheless, If a player isn't good in PvP his or her set will only get them so far. Generally suggesting PvPer's sets are carrying them is a big assumption on your part which you mentioned in your own message. Players are more than likely freaking out about the cost of golding out more sets... and all the lag and bugs still plaguing Cyrodiil. At least that's what my guildies were going on about the other day. I've seen many competent PvPers in Cyrodiil, and L2P because your sets are gone has nothing to do with this issue here either. Stay on topic please.
As I said in my subsequent post, I was merely providing examples of the "DOOM" that's prevalent in the forums, and it's even got new stuff happening today. The point to that is very much on topic: This is just another "DOOM" thread.If players want to min max who are we to stop them. If they paid for race tokens to have specific abilities and those abilities are gone, or reduced, or new ones are added which are unacceptable for them for multiple reasons they should be compensated. It's not the player's fault the racial passives were changed again.
Furthermore, ZOS recongnises the champ point system costs gold and made those respecs free for everyone and every character to change. So, they can feel free to try out new things. However, when it came to changing racial passives, which they claim they already balanced and cost real money they didn't take the opportunity to do the right thing to make those free, at least not yet. I'm seeing a double standard here.
As I stated before, it's not the player's fault the racial passives need adjusting and it shouldn't cost real money to get back what you had or to get rid of something added which players don't want. ZOS has other ethical options available to them as many players have pointed out in many threads and making these changes cost nothing for players can and should be done.
At the end of the day racial combat passives shouldn't be for sale.
At the end of the day, they're not for sale. There is no page in the store where you can go buy a passive to apply to your character. "But race change tokens" is not a valid argument for what you're saying here. That's not a passive, that's an active decision to completely revamp your character, based on changes that, historically, aren't as bad as the forums paint them out to be. I theorycrafted builds for years in Neverwinter Nights, and DDO. Not so much here, as of yet, although I am dabbling. The problem with theorycrafting is that the meta will shift. Note, I didn't say it might shift, it will shift, and all that work is for naught, if one feels like they have to run the current meta, and nothing else will do.
Based on what you're saying here, any time the meta shifts, whether through game design choices, or through the addition of more gear, ZoS should be handing out race change tokens. They really shouldn't. The problem with chasing the meta is that it is going to require gear chasing, and drastic changes to a character. Min/Max to your heart's content, but understand that, at the end of the day, any costs you incur from doing so are purely voluntary. Nobody is forced to do it, and nobody is forced to change their character every time the meta shifts. They choose to do so, and so, should understand that any expenses incurred are purely on them, not the developers.
Signing the ToS doesn't give ZOS a white card to practice unethical business. There is no gold version of these tokens and the races do have combat and non combat passives/bonuses tied to them. They did change them and they will cost real money to change.
I must point this out once again, you're trying to equate gear and skill changes which are changed with gold and perfectly ethical, with race changes that do have combat bonuses tied to them and which cost real money here. So no,what you wrote isn't what I said. I never said ZOS should hand out tokens for every thing they change. In fact, you're changing what I've said to suit yourself and going off topic each time. So with that said. If you continue to go off topic there's no point in discussing it with you further.
Your theory crafting in other games and even if it were this one, is just another off topic remark. It doesn't apply here. It doesn't matter how small "you think" the changes are, or if they are positive or negative. Most players chose those characters with those bonuses in mind.
The 1st fact to consider here is this. The races were changed through no fault of the player base. There are many reasons, not just meta, why players would or wouldn't want their characters to have these bonuses. The other fact is this. In order to get rid of or to get back any of these combat and non combat bonuses caused by the changes, players have to spend real money. There is no gold version of these tokens available.
This is also not just another doom thread. Many good suggestions from the players came out of this thread and the related previous threads on this subject. That is what ZOS wants.
ZOS proves themselves it's the right course of action through their own past behaviour. Players expressed a mountain of gratitude because ZOS didn't charge them money for tokens after races were changed last time. There was no reason not to follow through with the same course of action and sentiment. I never said they "must" do it. I only said it was the ethical thing to do, if they didn't want to consider implementing alternatives which were suggested in this thread and many other threads.
So, yes, the racial bonuses that belong to the races are in this specific case (not all cases) for sale and yes it's P2W, since in order to change your race at all you'll have to spend real money for the tokens. There is no other way to get them. You going on about meta and number crunching to say the changes are small for "you" doesn't change the base facts, or any or the other legimate points made by many players, especially since even some of the casual and rp players want the best performing or best matching races for their character when they play, not just meta chasers.
At the end of the day, I still believe players asking for race and name change tokens is valid, and it would've been and would still be the right course of action here if they didn't want to use alternative and/or better methods of balancing.
Each race has passive combat skills. It doesn't take a genius to see they will want the active/passives bonuses back and want to get rid of any active/passive bonuses they don't want. If those bonuses were purchasable with gold and free for the 1st 2 weeks or even just 1x, like the skills are, I wouldn't even be here debating this, since that would be perfectly ethical. In this case it's unethical and they're for sale. I can see you're just trying to skirt every single legimate issue. So there's no point in discussing it further, and I wish you a good day.
Have fun in game all
Edited by Arrodisia on March 10, 2021 4:30PM1 -
Arrodisia✭✭✭✭✭No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »Furthermore, ZOS recongnises the champ point system costs gold and made those respecs free for everyone and every character to change. So, they can feel free to try out new things.
Okay this is just straight up wrong.
Respecs are not free for everyone and every character to change. Only changing your slottable is. If you want to move around your champion points into different stars it will absolutely cost you gold to do.
Respecs are free for the first 2 weeks, or at least they are meant to be. So I don't believe he/she is straight up wrong, in fact they're pretty much right on the money.
Is it free in two weeks and 1 day? No. They mightn't be straight up wrong then, but they're still wrong or at the VERY least twisting the information to fit their argument, because respcs WILL cost gold agin.
The point wasn't twisted to fit the argument. They are free the 1st 2 weeks and btw, we did complain on the pts forums about the constant micromanaging and future gold costs. This topic was about supporting or not supporting the changes and I ultimately can't support these because they're unethical and explained in many threads and posts why such changes which ultimately cost real money aren't ethical.
The future costs are another topic though and don't cost real money. We can always create another thread and complain about the future gold costs.
Edited by Arrodisia on March 10, 2021 4:20PM0 -
Ittrix✭✭✭No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.I don't personally like to use race change tokens, but I can see the changes hitting the sort of people who cared last time we got race changes.1