TheForFeeF wrote: »

SeaArcanist wrote: »

You've had a few months time and warning about these changes. you could have created a newrace/class. or saved up ESO subscription crowns for 2 months and change your race that way. or use that 2 months time to amass gold, and buy crowns off sombody to change your race.

there was time to make a change. PvPers didn't get free pvp gear when all their sets stopped working in cyrodiil. why do you believe you should get somthing for free?

This argument is invalid - gear in the game is free.

We have only had just over a month's notice too.

Should I also just be giving up all the time and effort put into my main character? I'd love to see you forget about your main character.

I believe your argument has merit. Switching free in game gear is not the same as paying out real money, anywhere from 1x up to 18x race and name change tokens. They are very expensive and some of these changes don't even make sense this time around.

Balancing the game is something that should fall under normal costs of operation. The normal costs of operation are supposedly paid for by purchasing the game, subscriptions,...

The devs made mistakes balancing and rebalancing the races, not the players. Why is the burden falling on the player again and again?

This is already "Buy combat passives 2 Win" and it's bordering on bait and switch. Nevertheless, combat passives should not be for sale.

ZOS has ethical options here. They can give race and name change tokens to every account for all characters. Pushing this through without removing 100% of the cost is completely unnecessary and unethical.

I read the patch notes and I really don't see anything huge that requires a race change token. If you're that concerned over a few changes (changes that could be made up for in other areas) then buy yourself one. I'm sure most won't be using or requiring a token. There are other reasons to go by when choosing a race than the passives. Racial passives are only bonuses that you can elect to use or not use just like any other skill line. They shouldn't make or break your build just because of a few changes.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Random_Zombie wrote: »

Just recognize that some people thought when they made a decision on their race, they were doing so in good faith that their decision would be respected by ZOS. It's sad honestly.

Any and everything that effects balance of the game is and should always be subject to adjustments.

The changes this time were *mostly* fairly minor, so I don't necessarily think that they need to give out tokens. Maybe to Nord and Orc players, but for the most part these aren't massive adjustments.

Everything should be subject to adjustment, but not cost the player real money each time they fail to balance it correctly. The changes being "minor" is a matter of who's opinion you ask. For some players it's a bigger deal than for others. Either way some players paid real money to change their races last time they wanteded to "balance" them. At least some of the changes made sense last time.

It's not the players' fault the races are "imbalanced" again. Why should it cost players real money?

renne wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

These changes are shaking the playerbase support. Players are rethinking their subs and future purchases.
Offering these changes for free will go a long way towards restoring ZOS's credibility.

To be fair, even the slightest little change ZoS makes to anything has people threatening to stop subscribing. And it's been that case ever since the start. I mean google '"going to cancel my sub" site:forums.elderscrollsonline.com' and there's posts from nearly every year the game has been live on the first page alone.

and why are they thinking that? Maybe they're tired of being nickel and dimed for things they have no responsibility to pay out when what they really asked for and are tired of are servers that die under load. Tired of Cyrodiil and Trials being buggy, laggy disconnect festivals... They should fix the racial passives after they fix their game and before they charge players another cent for any change or content.

If these racial combat passives are imbalanced, it because they weren't balanced correctly in the 1st place. We should get our money back for every race token bought and used. Businesses need to be accountable for their products and services otherwise there is no reason for customers to stick around.

Besides, selling racial combat passives to players to win in the form of balancing something they claim they already balanced multiple times is unethical.

Balancing a game falls under normal operation costs. Devs generally want their games to be balanced to keep population high. Balancing is part of their normal duties usually paid for by subs, purchasing the game, dlc's, ....

Why should players pay real money on top of that to purchase racial combat passives? ZOS has ethical options here as many players in multiple threads have suggested and this isn't one of them.

Personally I couldn't care less.
Seeing how I always play the race & class I like, no matter if they are a good mix or not I don't really think too much about racial passives.
But for those who do min/max and looking for top numbers a token or two could've been a good gesture.

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

renne wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

These changes are shaking the playerbase support. Players are rethinking their subs and future purchases.
Offering these changes for free will go a long way towards restoring ZOS's credibility.

To be fair, even the slightest little change ZoS makes to anything has people threatening to stop subscribing. And it's been that case ever since the start. I mean google '"going to cancel my sub" site:forums.elderscrollsonline.com' and there's posts from nearly every year the game has been live on the first page alone.

and why are they thinking that? Maybe they're tired of being nickel and dimed for things they have no responsibility to pay out. Tired of servers that die under load. Tired of Cyrodiil and Trials being buggy, laggy disconnect festivals... They should fix the racial passives after they fix their game and before they charge players another cent for any change or content.

Besides, selling racial combat passives to players to win in the form of balancing something they claim they already balanced multiple times is unethical.

Balancing a game falls under normal operation costs. Devs generally want their games to be balanced to keep population high. Balancing is part of their normal duties usually paid for by subs, purchasing the game, dlc's, ....

Why should players pay real money on top of that to purchase racial combat passives? ZOS has ethical options here as many players in multiple threads have suggested and this isn't one of them.

Alternatively, maybe they're afraid that their OP build won't work any more? Just speculation on my part, I have no specific examples, but for the time I've been here, I've been reading how Wood Elves can't sneak any more, and then go play my wood elves, and be sneaky as I please. Check out the terror going rampant about no more Proc sets in PvP. Seems like players got used to being carried, and now they're freaking out. Seems as likely a reason as any to be freaking out, yes?

And just how is being stealthy being carried? Aren't a lot of solo players using stealth? Solo players aren't hiding behind a group like some of the other players imho. These changes don't only impact PvP. They impact PvE as well. new and old players inexperienced and experienced.

ZOS recongnizes the champ point system costs gold and made that free for everyone to change so they can feel free to try out new things. However, when it came to changing racial passives which they claim they already balanced and cost real money they couldn't be bothered to make those free.
As I stated before, it's not the player's fault the racial passives need adjusting and it shouldn't cost real money to get your racial passives back. ZOS has other ethical options available to them as many players have pointed out in many threads.

First, what are you talking about? Where did I imply being stealthy was being carried? You see, this is what's wrong with trying to use a forum for feedback. People read what they want to read, and then respond to that, instead of what was actually said. I pointed out some of the doom and gloom that's been present on the forums forever, and recently, from my perspective, on proc sets. You went clear off in left field asking me to support something that you made up.

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Random_Zombie wrote: »

Just recognize that some people thought when they made a decision on their race, they were doing so in good faith that their decision would be respected by ZOS. It's sad honestly.

Any and everything that effects balance of the game is and should always be subject to adjustments.

The changes this time were *mostly* fairly minor, so I don't necessarily think that they need to give out tokens. Maybe to Nord and Orc players, but for the most part these aren't massive adjustments.

Everything should be subject to adjustment, but not cost the player real money each time they fail to balance it correctly. The changes being "minor" is a matter of who's opinion you ask. For some players it's a bigger deal than for others. Either way some players paid real money to change their races last time they wanteded to "balance" them. At least some of the changes made sense last time.

It's not the players' fault the races are "imbalanced" again. Why should it cost players real money?

They will never be perfect balance so that's not a reason to hand out free stuff. Minor adjustments are minor even if some players want to make mountains out of molehills. Major adjustments should get race tokens but not every adjustment needs them.

Never really played mmos for specific race/class combos. More fun to play the race you enjoy.

That said wouldnt say no to more, still have some from the time they gave out 3x of Race/Name changes for just logging in.

robertthebard wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

renne wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

These changes are shaking the playerbase support. Players are rethinking their subs and future purchases.
Offering these changes for free will go a long way towards restoring ZOS's credibility.

To be fair, even the slightest little change ZoS makes to anything has people threatening to stop subscribing. And it's been that case ever since the start. I mean google '"going to cancel my sub" site:forums.elderscrollsonline.com' and there's posts from nearly every year the game has been live on the first page alone.

and why are they thinking that? Maybe they're tired of being nickel and dimed for things they have no responsibility to pay out. Tired of servers that die under load. Tired of Cyrodiil and Trials being buggy, laggy disconnect festivals... They should fix the racial passives after they fix their game and before they charge players another cent for any change or content.

Besides, selling racial combat passives to players to win in the form of balancing something they claim they already balanced multiple times is unethical.

Balancing a game falls under normal operation costs. Devs generally want their games to be balanced to keep population high. Balancing is part of their normal duties usually paid for by subs, purchasing the game, dlc's, ....

Why should players pay real money on top of that to purchase racial combat passives? ZOS has ethical options here as many players in multiple threads have suggested and this isn't one of them.

Alternatively, maybe they're afraid that their OP build won't work any more? Just speculation on my part, I have no specific examples, but for the time I've been here, I've been reading how Wood Elves can't sneak any more, and then go play my wood elves, and be sneaky as I please. Check out the terror going rampant about no more Proc sets in PvP. Seems like players got used to being carried, and now they're freaking out. Seems as likely a reason as any to be freaking out, yes?

And just how is being stealthy being carried? Aren't a lot of solo players using stealth? Solo players aren't hiding behind a group like some of the other players imho. These changes don't only impact PvP. They impact PvE as well. new and old players inexperienced and experienced.

ZOS recongnizes the champ point system costs gold and made that free for everyone to change so they can feel free to try out new things. However, when it came to changing racial passives which they claim they already balanced and cost real money they couldn't be bothered to make those free.
As I stated before, it's not the player's fault the racial passives need adjusting and it shouldn't cost real money to get your racial passives back. ZOS has other ethical options available to them as many players have pointed out in many threads.

First, what are you talking about? Where did I imply being stealthy was being carried? You see, this is what's wrong with trying to use a forum for feedback. People read what they want to read, and then respond to that, instead of what was actually said. I pointed out some of the doom and gloom that's been present on the forums forever, and recently, from my perspective, on proc sets. You went clear off in left field asking me to support something that you made up.

I will readdress this and edit my post. I was on my way out and missed a part of what was said. Stay tuned.

Dosen't matter what trikery the daedra in zos are doing us Altmer will alwais be the superior choice.

If you diden't choose the evidently superior race you deserve to suffer.


The veiled heritance is not dead! Naemon will return!... again.

This post constructed incorrectly so i don't know how to answer. I don't need tokens. None of the change would force me to change the race or even the playstyle. But i not agreed with those changes. They nerfed argonians again while they are supposed to be buffed actually.

Luckily, I still have 3 race change and 3 name change tokens from the last time they gave away freebies.

I don't know what the planned changes are but I am pretty much always anti-rebalancing. That being said, I ultimately don't really care.

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

I reposted this after editing. So, if you feel inclined, you can answer what would've been said. Sorry about the mix up. Unfortunately, I was in a hurry and on my way out. I should've answered after I arrived at my destination.

No worries, now we can discuss what was actually said. I like discussions.

For me, the main point is this. Charging players money for race tokens because the DEVs changed the racial passives again is unethical. It gets explained further into the comments in many threads including this one by many players. Some good alternatives were proposed.

We all agree to the same ToS when we install and run the game. In that ToS, it states that they can change all or part of the game. Rough paraphrase there, I did not go look for the exact wording, but it's always in there, because stuff like this will always happen.

Any change which removes or adds an ability or passive, and which someone pays real money to get it back or get rid of it is unethical.
Regardless, the point you make about proc sets is off topic and irrelevant to the subject at hand. It seems to belong in a PvP thread.

I'm going to need a link to the abilities and passives pages of the store. I've totally missed them in the past. Shuffling the races/classes/skills around is going to be an ongoing thing, and it's not limited to here. The last changes to the game were supposed to be so devastating that they actually did give tokens. I still have all of mine, despite having one of the races that was "nerfed into the ground".

Nevertheless, If a player isn't good in PvP his or her set will only get them so far. Generally suggesting PvPer's sets are carrying them is a big assumption on your part which you mentioned in your own message. Players are more than likely freaking out about the cost of golding out more sets... and all the lag and bugs still plaguing Cyrodiil. At least that's what my guildies were going on about the other day. I've seen many competent PvPers in Cyrodiil, and L2P because your sets are gone has nothing to do with this issue here either. Stay on topic please.

As I said in my subsequent post, I was merely providing examples of the "DOOM" that's prevalent in the forums, and it's even got new stuff happening today. The point to that is very much on topic: This is just another "DOOM" thread.

If players want to min max who are we to stop them. If they paid for race tokens to have specific abilities and those abilities are gone, or reduced, or new ones are added which are unacceptable for them for multiple reasons they should be compensated. It's not the player's fault the racial passives were changed again.

Furthermore, ZOS recongnises the champ point system costs gold and made those respecs free for everyone and every character to change. So, they can feel free to try out new things. However, when it came to changing racial passives, which they claim they already balanced and cost real money they didn't take the opportunity to do the right thing to make those free, at least not yet. I'm seeing a double standard here.

As I stated before, it's not the player's fault the racial passives need adjusting and it shouldn't cost real money to get back what you had or to get rid of something added which players don't want. ZOS has other ethical options available to them as many players have pointed out in many threads and making these changes cost nothing for players can and should be done.

At the end of the day racial combat passives shouldn't be for sale.

At the end of the day, they're not for sale. There is no page in the store where you can go buy a passive to apply to your character. "But race change tokens" is not a valid argument for what you're saying here. That's not a passive, that's an active decision to completely revamp your character, based on changes that, historically, aren't as bad as the forums paint them out to be. I theorycrafted builds for years in Neverwinter Nights, and DDO. Not so much here, as of yet, although I am dabbling. The problem with theorycrafting is that the meta will shift. Note, I didn't say it might shift, it will shift, and all that work is for naught, if one feels like they have to run the current meta, and nothing else will do.

Based on what you're saying here, any time the meta shifts, whether through game design choices, or through the addition of more gear, ZoS should be handing out race change tokens. They really shouldn't. The problem with chasing the meta is that it is going to require gear chasing, and drastic changes to a character. Min/Max to your heart's content, but understand that, at the end of the day, any costs you incur from doing so are purely voluntary. Nobody is forced to do it, and nobody is forced to change their character every time the meta shifts. They choose to do so, and so, should understand that any expenses incurred are purely on them, not the developers.