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Mudball harrassment
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WhereArtThouVampires✭✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There was no verbal or physical harassment, Gina said that that player 'should stop' not have to stop.
I'm going to quote the part of Gina's post that doesn't agree with you; "As with all forms of harassment, if a player asks you to stop a behavior, you need to stop."
So there was no verbal or physical harassment, but since the player was asked to stop amd didn't, there absolutely was harassment, according to Gina. Perhaps you missed that part of her followup to the Discord post?
Not going to argue with you over a mudball. It is not harassment in any way. Period. if ZoS decides to classify it as harassments they will be setting up a very unhealthy precedent. Everything in the game that players can interact with will come into subject. Watch what you wish for.
you forgot to tag @ZOS_GinaBruno to ask her to personally clarify if when she previously stated all forms of harassment she meant all forms of harassment, or if she means all forms of harassment except this one
you mean all forms of harassment that the devs didn't specifically program into the game?
Like, let's just be honest here, if the mudball thing was an actual issue ZoS would have removed it by now. It's pretty simple.
Mudballs are not an issue when they are not used to harass people
somehow you equate "people should not be allowed to harass others" with "people should not be allowed to throw mudballs at anyone ever"
despite your narrative, that is not the case; plenty of people find mudballs fun and plenty of people do not use them to harass others
a small toxic minority of players will use any means necessary to harass others tho, and it is much better for ZOS to remove those players than remove decent systems that are otherwise fun
You genuinely believe that it's a better business practice for ZoS to LOSE customers than to remove an emote or just simply do what they are doing now: nothing at all?
That's..... uh.... kind of a yikes take, tbh. I don't think the ZoS stockholders would appreciate knowing they're losing out on money and revenue because some people can't handle a mudball spam now and then.
See, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
It's a very slippery slope to go down and I don't think anyone here would like the destination.
It's not about my beliefs in this case, it's about my experiences moderating for a gaming company in a corporate setting and the positions of the upper management in those instances
it is viewed as much less of a loss to get rid of a single toxic player than to lose the multiple players that report them
can comprehend that you have a lot of personal feelings or beliefs about why you may not agree with such business practices, am not really interested in those so much as the facts of what ZOS position has been expressed to be
Right, but here's the thing with your first bit of experience there. People like OP won't be lost to the game or company because they will NEVER see the mudballer again or remember their name.
So, they can either choose to not lose a thing or to get rid of a potentially very high paying customer just because of an emote the devs created. At that point with my experience in corporate, if the feature is deemed to lead to extremely toxic behavior then it should be removed or at the very least be given an option to turn off by clicking ignore on the player.
But, it also isn't a reportable thing because it's a feature the devs implemented.
Right but here's the thing with your lack of experience -- ZOS has to manage a community and has the tools to do so
you apparently do not even comprehend the tools because you posed me the question
which is simply not true and demonstrates that you are not thinking of this issue from the perspective of the gaming company but instead from the perspective of a gamer defending player toxicitySee, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
Chat logs will show that the player was asked to stop. Activity logs will show that the player continued. It's not some case where ZOS can't see what goes on in alleyways in their servers, everything we do in game can be observed and logged
you keep framing hypotheticals according to your standards in response to being told about how cases are handled in the real world
Oh no, believe me. I know they have the tools to go through chat logs and see player actions.
But tell me: you seriously believe. And I mean seriously believe that they have someone over at ZoS that looks through mudball tickets and dives that deep server-side to check their validity?
That, my friend, shows your lack of experience. Imagine someone actually getting paid a career level salary to sit there and look through mudball reports. The mere idea is insane. Each second they spend on a mudball reports is time that could be spent on other more serious, actual harassment reports.0 -
WhereArtThouVampires✭✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There was no verbal or physical harassment, Gina said that that player 'should stop' not have to stop.
I'm going to quote the part of Gina's post that doesn't agree with you; "As with all forms of harassment, if a player asks you to stop a behavior, you need to stop."
So there was no verbal or physical harassment, but since the player was asked to stop amd didn't, there absolutely was harassment, according to Gina. Perhaps you missed that part of her followup to the Discord post?
Not going to argue with you over a mudball. It is not harassment in any way. Period. if ZoS decides to classify it as harassments they will be setting up a very unhealthy precedent. Everything in the game that players can interact with will come into subject. Watch what you wish for.
you forgot to tag @ZOS_GinaBruno to ask her to personally clarify if when she previously stated all forms of harassment she meant all forms of harassment, or if she means all forms of harassment except this one
you mean all forms of harassment that the devs didn't specifically program into the game?
Like, let's just be honest here, if the mudball thing was an actual issue ZoS would have removed it by now. It's pretty simple.
Mudballs are not an issue when they are not used to harass people
somehow you equate "people should not be allowed to harass others" with "people should not be allowed to throw mudballs at anyone ever"
despite your narrative, that is not the case; plenty of people find mudballs fun and plenty of people do not use them to harass others
a small toxic minority of players will use any means necessary to harass others tho, and it is much better for ZOS to remove those players than remove decent systems that are otherwise fun
You genuinely believe that it's a better business practice for ZoS to LOSE customers than to remove an emote or just simply do what they are doing now: nothing at all?
That's..... uh.... kind of a yikes take, tbh. I don't think the ZoS stockholders would appreciate knowing they're losing out on money and revenue because some people can't handle a mudball spam now and then.
See, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
It's a very slippery slope to go down and I don't think anyone here would like the destination.
ZeniMax Media is part of Microsoft now. So, speaking as a stockholder, I’m of the opinion that people who agree to abide by the ToS and CoC should abide by them.
In the meantime, did you actually follow that link and read Gina’s post that “spamming emotes is fine, although if someone asks you to please stop, you should stop”? Sounds like it covers emotes to me.
Gina making an off-hand comment about 'you should stop' doesn't really mean much. If she added a 'or disciplinary action will be taken' at the end of it, I'd agree fully.
But her just saying that doesn't necessarily mean it's something that is punishable.
And again, if the emote has a chance of breaking the ToS why is it even in the game in the first place then? Coming from a stockholder position, it'd make a lot more sense to simply remove the emote entirely.
So you did not in fact read the post or her other post in that thread. It is very clear that continuing to teabag or spam emotes on a single person (“targeted harassment”) after someone has asked you to stop “is not ok.” It can lead to action, which is not something they take lightly. They have a team to consider the best response depending on context, also as Gina said.
It is not the emote itself that is the problem. It is spamming it after you have been asked to stop that is the problem.
Then make adding a player to your ignore list disable their emotes.
Boom, all emote related "harassment" is gone.
I and the few others that have suggested this very thing have officially solved the issue without anyone needing to be punished or banned.Edited by WhereArtThouVampires on March 10, 2021 11:49AM0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭I personally ASK all players to stop say about in game actions that do not include CHAT to write to others that it is harrasment and that some one need to stop - it is now harrasment.
So i will report all of them, who did not do as i ask as harrasment.Edited by AyaDark on March 10, 2021 11:51AM0 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There was no verbal or physical harassment, Gina said that that player 'should stop' not have to stop.
I'm going to quote the part of Gina's post that doesn't agree with you; "As with all forms of harassment, if a player asks you to stop a behavior, you need to stop."
So there was no verbal or physical harassment, but since the player was asked to stop amd didn't, there absolutely was harassment, according to Gina. Perhaps you missed that part of her followup to the Discord post?
Not going to argue with you over a mudball. It is not harassment in any way. Period. if ZoS decides to classify it as harassments they will be setting up a very unhealthy precedent. Everything in the game that players can interact with will come into subject. Watch what you wish for.
you forgot to tag @ZOS_GinaBruno to ask her to personally clarify if when she previously stated all forms of harassment she meant all forms of harassment, or if she means all forms of harassment except this one
you mean all forms of harassment that the devs didn't specifically program into the game?
Like, let's just be honest here, if the mudball thing was an actual issue ZoS would have removed it by now. It's pretty simple.
Mudballs are not an issue when they are not used to harass people
somehow you equate "people should not be allowed to harass others" with "people should not be allowed to throw mudballs at anyone ever"
despite your narrative, that is not the case; plenty of people find mudballs fun and plenty of people do not use them to harass others
a small toxic minority of players will use any means necessary to harass others tho, and it is much better for ZOS to remove those players than remove decent systems that are otherwise fun
You genuinely believe that it's a better business practice for ZoS to LOSE customers than to remove an emote or just simply do what they are doing now: nothing at all?
That's..... uh.... kind of a yikes take, tbh. I don't think the ZoS stockholders would appreciate knowing they're losing out on money and revenue because some people can't handle a mudball spam now and then.
See, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
It's a very slippery slope to go down and I don't think anyone here would like the destination.
It's not about my beliefs in this case, it's about my experiences moderating for a gaming company in a corporate setting and the positions of the upper management in those instances
it is viewed as much less of a loss to get rid of a single toxic player than to lose the multiple players that report them
can comprehend that you have a lot of personal feelings or beliefs about why you may not agree with such business practices, am not really interested in those so much as the facts of what ZOS position has been expressed to be
Right, but here's the thing with your first bit of experience there. People like OP won't be lost to the game or company because they will NEVER see the mudballer again or remember their name.
So, they can either choose to not lose a thing or to get rid of a potentially very high paying customer just because of an emote the devs created. At that point with my experience in corporate, if the feature is deemed to lead to extremely toxic behavior then it should be removed or at the very least be given an option to turn off by clicking ignore on the player.
But, it also isn't a reportable thing because it's a feature the devs implemented.
Right but here's the thing with your lack of experience -- ZOS has to manage a community and has the tools to do so
you apparently do not even comprehend the tools because you posed me the question
which is simply not true and demonstrates that you are not thinking of this issue from the perspective of the gaming company but instead from the perspective of a gamer defending player toxicitySee, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
Chat logs will show that the player was asked to stop. Activity logs will show that the player continued. It's not some case where ZOS can't see what goes on in alleyways in their servers, everything we do in game can be observed and logged
you keep framing hypotheticals according to your standards in response to being told about how cases are handled in the real world
Oh no, believe me. I know they have the tools to go through chat logs and see player actions.
But tell me: you seriously believe. And I mean seriously believe that they have someone over at ZoS that looks through mudball tickets and dives that deep server-side to check their validity?
That, my friend, shows your lack of experience. Imagine someone actually getting paid a career level salary to sit there and look through mudball reports. The mere idea is insane. Each second they spend on a mudball reports is time that could be spent on other more serious, actual harassment reports.
I have friends who do get paid for the exact sort of work you are proclaiming is insane that someone be paid for
again, recognize that you have a bunch of feelings and beliefs on this issue and that you are desperate to express them because you are upset by your interpretation of events
that does not change the reality of online businesses taking harassment claims seriously"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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WhereArtThouVampires✭✭✭✭I suppose that's my final stance on it. Legit just make it to where if you ignore a player then all their emotes are disabled on your screen.
Problem is solved. No more emote harassment threads. No more silly arguments or debates about if tossing a virtual ball of mud after someone said no is harassment.
Best of all: no more hurt feelings because then people who take offense will have a means to deal with it themselves. And no one gets banned or leaves the game.
I do appreciate all of you who participated in the discussion tho, y'all the real MvPs.
Im looking at you @Samadhi and probably one or two other peeps that I'm too lazy to scroll up to get the names of.Edited by WhereArtThouVampires on March 10, 2021 11:54AM0 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »I suppose that's my final stance on it. Legit just make it to where if you ignore a player then all their emotes are disabled on your screen.
So five pages in your final position is that you agree with the OP who suggested:IntenseRenegader wrote: »Please allow us to disable the visual effect of mudballs (in settings) so it can ruin this type of behaviour.
that's cool; just recognizing that the OP was absolutely ridiculed for taking the position you are now trying to gracefully bow out with
"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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NordSwordnBoard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Memba hitting duelers with mudballs, which then enabled you to heal them?
Memba mudballs would work on a person using the dye station? (that one was pretty bad)
Memba mudballs would give you a small amount of ultimate when you hit someone, like a light attack? (we would be mudballing each other to fill ulti before tough boss fights to boost dps.)
Memba Chewbacca and Han Solo threw mudballs at each other before they became like brothers?
Fear is the Mindkiller1 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭
You reported him??? I mean I kind of understand you being annoyed, but you actually want him to get banned for throwing mudballs? Seems totally excessive and I am no longer sure who the bad guy is in this situation.IntenseRenegader wrote: »Often i find myself getting bombarded with mudballs, and especially this one guy yesterday kept targetting me, i gently asked him to stop and that only seemed to fuel the fire, as he actually stopped throwing it at others, and only threw at me after that. I ported out of the instance and reported the guy.
He reported him for SPECIALLY focusing on him after being asked not to throw mud balls at him. This clearly shows an act of spite.Let's be extremely precise in our use of terms.1 -
WhereArtThouVampires✭✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »I suppose that's my final stance on it. Legit just make it to where if you ignore a player then all their emotes are disabled on your screen.
So five pages in your final position is that you agree with the OP who suggested:IntenseRenegader wrote: »Please allow us to disable the visual effect of mudballs (in settings) so it can ruin this type of behaviour.
that's cool; just recognizing that the OP was absolutely ridiculed for taking the position you are now trying to gracefully bow out with
Nope, I don't agree with adding a settings option for it.
I agree with making it to where if you ignore a player then you can't see their emotes. Too very different things.
If you're going to call me out as im gracefully trying to leave like a swan into the sunset, at least do it right, my man.Edited by WhereArtThouVampires on March 10, 2021 12:04PM0 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There was no verbal or physical harassment, Gina said that that player 'should stop' not have to stop.
I'm going to quote the part of Gina's post that doesn't agree with you; "As with all forms of harassment, if a player asks you to stop a behavior, you need to stop."
So there was no verbal or physical harassment, but since the player was asked to stop amd didn't, there absolutely was harassment, according to Gina. Perhaps you missed that part of her followup to the Discord post?
Not going to argue with you over a mudball. It is not harassment in any way. Period. if ZoS decides to classify it as harassments they will be setting up a very unhealthy precedent. Everything in the game that players can interact with will come into subject. Watch what you wish for.
you forgot to tag @ZOS_GinaBruno to ask her to personally clarify if when she previously stated all forms of harassment she meant all forms of harassment, or if she means all forms of harassment except this one
you mean all forms of harassment that the devs didn't specifically program into the game?
Like, let's just be honest here, if the mudball thing was an actual issue ZoS would have removed it by now. It's pretty simple.
Mudballs are not an issue when they are not used to harass people
somehow you equate "people should not be allowed to harass others" with "people should not be allowed to throw mudballs at anyone ever"
despite your narrative, that is not the case; plenty of people find mudballs fun and plenty of people do not use them to harass others
a small toxic minority of players will use any means necessary to harass others tho, and it is much better for ZOS to remove those players than remove decent systems that are otherwise fun
You genuinely believe that it's a better business practice for ZoS to LOSE customers than to remove an emote or just simply do what they are doing now: nothing at all?
That's..... uh.... kind of a yikes take, tbh. I don't think the ZoS stockholders would appreciate knowing they're losing out on money and revenue because some people can't handle a mudball spam now and then.
See, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
It's a very slippery slope to go down and I don't think anyone here would like the destination.
It's not about my beliefs in this case, it's about my experiences moderating for a gaming company in a corporate setting and the positions of the upper management in those instances
it is viewed as much less of a loss to get rid of a single toxic player than to lose the multiple players that report them
can comprehend that you have a lot of personal feelings or beliefs about why you may not agree with such business practices, am not really interested in those so much as the facts of what ZOS position has been expressed to be
Right, but here's the thing with your first bit of experience there. People like OP won't be lost to the game or company because they will NEVER see the mudballer again or remember their name.
So, they can either choose to not lose a thing or to get rid of a potentially very high paying customer just because of an emote the devs created. At that point with my experience in corporate, if the feature is deemed to lead to extremely toxic behavior then it should be removed or at the very least be given an option to turn off by clicking ignore on the player.
But, it also isn't a reportable thing because it's a feature the devs implemented.
Right but here's the thing with your lack of experience -- ZOS has to manage a community and has the tools to do so
you apparently do not even comprehend the tools because you posed me the question
which is simply not true and demonstrates that you are not thinking of this issue from the perspective of the gaming company but instead from the perspective of a gamer defending player toxicitySee, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
Chat logs will show that the player was asked to stop. Activity logs will show that the player continued. It's not some case where ZOS can't see what goes on in alleyways in their servers, everything we do in game can be observed and logged
you keep framing hypotheticals according to your standards in response to being told about how cases are handled in the real world
Oh no, believe me. I know they have the tools to go through chat logs and see player actions.
But tell me: you seriously believe. And I mean seriously believe that they have someone over at ZoS that looks through mudball tickets and dives that deep server-side to check their validity?
That, my friend, shows your lack of experience. Imagine someone actually getting paid a career level salary to sit there and look through mudball reports. The mere idea is insane. Each second they spend on a mudball reports is time that could be spent on other more serious, actual harassment reports.
I have friends who do get paid for the exact sort of work you are proclaiming is insane that someone be paid for
again, recognize that you have a bunch of feelings and beliefs on this issue and that you are desperate to express them because you are upset by your interpretation of events
that does not change the reality of online businesses taking harassment claims seriously
The only one displaying any sign of desperation here is the one trying to convince me they have friends that totally do stuff in the industry because Trust Me Bro.
That said though, I actually don't have a bunch of feelings or beliefs on this issue that can't be summed up simply. I just find the idea of someone being at risk of losing their account because of an in game emote the devs themselves made to be quite hilarious.
And also quite terrifying, but discussions about this topic are always fun to participate in or at least watch the dumpster fire.
See, I'm all down for people getting punished for verbal harassment or threats. But the minute you start to incorporate in-game actions that the devs have specifically made into that argument.... It suddenly becomes way different.
There's a reason why no other MMO bans players for spamming emotes like eso apparently does.
That said, I do appreciate the discussion me boyo.
Desperation?
The fact that you are wrong induces no desperation in me; the fact that you are making so much effort to spread misinformation based on what you believe should be true rather than what the official company position has been expressed to be is discouraging and it is my genuine hope that @ZOS_GinaBruno will come to clarify the rules so that people who have been reading your opinions on the matter do not interpret them as fact and get themselves banned with bad behaviour
but as you have referred to a game company having control over their product that users sign a terms of service to engage with being "terrifying" is outright funny
like, was aware that people who cry over how they don't like what the rules are are simply scared that their behaviour will run them afoul of the rules
but to see it expressed as "terrifying" to face consequences for bad behaviour is really fascinating and comical"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Current society is really bad ... .
Some peoples will do all to make others not to do they like, because they think that it is "right".
But when some one do the same they will do all to ban them using every hint in LAW, more numbers of votes and etc.
And it is "OK".
Why not you play META ? Put some clown nose and hat on you ?
New META, you should try it.Edited by AyaDark on March 10, 2021 12:12PM0 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »I suppose that's my final stance on it. Legit just make it to where if you ignore a player then all their emotes are disabled on your screen.
So five pages in your final position is that you agree with the OP who suggested:IntenseRenegader wrote: »Please allow us to disable the visual effect of mudballs (in settings) so it can ruin this type of behaviour.
that's cool; just recognizing that the OP was absolutely ridiculed for taking the position you are now trying to gracefully bow out with
Nope, I don't agree with adding a settings option for it.
I agree with making it to where if you ignore a player then you can't see their emotes. Too very different things.
If you're going to call me out as im gracefully trying to leave like a swan into the sunset, at least do it right, my man.
am not a man, and will ask politely that you never misgender me on the forums again
you responded directly to a post from the OP stating:IntenseRenegader wrote: »its not really important what you do, but please change it. Its not fun getting harrassed by mudballs, knowing you cant do anything to stop it.
but instead of agreeing with this point that you apparently now whole-heartedly support, you replied to the OP's message saying that it was their own fault for being harassed
fully recognize that you are desperate on your way out to look like you proved a point in this thread tho, so you will likely have some other excuse about how what you are asking for is different from what OP asked for and how OP is thin skinned and your are noble and helpful"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
0 -
WhereArtThouVampires✭✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There was no verbal or physical harassment, Gina said that that player 'should stop' not have to stop.
I'm going to quote the part of Gina's post that doesn't agree with you; "As with all forms of harassment, if a player asks you to stop a behavior, you need to stop."
So there was no verbal or physical harassment, but since the player was asked to stop amd didn't, there absolutely was harassment, according to Gina. Perhaps you missed that part of her followup to the Discord post?
Not going to argue with you over a mudball. It is not harassment in any way. Period. if ZoS decides to classify it as harassments they will be setting up a very unhealthy precedent. Everything in the game that players can interact with will come into subject. Watch what you wish for.
you forgot to tag @ZOS_GinaBruno to ask her to personally clarify if when she previously stated all forms of harassment she meant all forms of harassment, or if she means all forms of harassment except this one
you mean all forms of harassment that the devs didn't specifically program into the game?
Like, let's just be honest here, if the mudball thing was an actual issue ZoS would have removed it by now. It's pretty simple.
Mudballs are not an issue when they are not used to harass people
somehow you equate "people should not be allowed to harass others" with "people should not be allowed to throw mudballs at anyone ever"
despite your narrative, that is not the case; plenty of people find mudballs fun and plenty of people do not use them to harass others
a small toxic minority of players will use any means necessary to harass others tho, and it is much better for ZOS to remove those players than remove decent systems that are otherwise fun
You genuinely believe that it's a better business practice for ZoS to LOSE customers than to remove an emote or just simply do what they are doing now: nothing at all?
That's..... uh.... kind of a yikes take, tbh. I don't think the ZoS stockholders would appreciate knowing they're losing out on money and revenue because some people can't handle a mudball spam now and then.
See, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
It's a very slippery slope to go down and I don't think anyone here would like the destination.
It's not about my beliefs in this case, it's about my experiences moderating for a gaming company in a corporate setting and the positions of the upper management in those instances
it is viewed as much less of a loss to get rid of a single toxic player than to lose the multiple players that report them
can comprehend that you have a lot of personal feelings or beliefs about why you may not agree with such business practices, am not really interested in those so much as the facts of what ZOS position has been expressed to be
Right, but here's the thing with your first bit of experience there. People like OP won't be lost to the game or company because they will NEVER see the mudballer again or remember their name.
So, they can either choose to not lose a thing or to get rid of a potentially very high paying customer just because of an emote the devs created. At that point with my experience in corporate, if the feature is deemed to lead to extremely toxic behavior then it should be removed or at the very least be given an option to turn off by clicking ignore on the player.
But, it also isn't a reportable thing because it's a feature the devs implemented.
Right but here's the thing with your lack of experience -- ZOS has to manage a community and has the tools to do so
you apparently do not even comprehend the tools because you posed me the question
which is simply not true and demonstrates that you are not thinking of this issue from the perspective of the gaming company but instead from the perspective of a gamer defending player toxicitySee, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
Chat logs will show that the player was asked to stop. Activity logs will show that the player continued. It's not some case where ZOS can't see what goes on in alleyways in their servers, everything we do in game can be observed and logged
you keep framing hypotheticals according to your standards in response to being told about how cases are handled in the real world
Oh no, believe me. I know they have the tools to go through chat logs and see player actions.
But tell me: you seriously believe. And I mean seriously believe that they have someone over at ZoS that looks through mudball tickets and dives that deep server-side to check their validity?
That, my friend, shows your lack of experience. Imagine someone actually getting paid a career level salary to sit there and look through mudball reports. The mere idea is insane. Each second they spend on a mudball reports is time that could be spent on other more serious, actual harassment reports.
I have friends who do get paid for the exact sort of work you are proclaiming is insane that someone be paid for
again, recognize that you have a bunch of feelings and beliefs on this issue and that you are desperate to express them because you are upset by your interpretation of events
that does not change the reality of online businesses taking harassment claims seriously
The only one displaying any sign of desperation here is the one trying to convince me they have friends that totally do stuff in the industry because Trust Me Bro.
That said though, I actually don't have a bunch of feelings or beliefs on this issue that can't be summed up simply. I just find the idea of someone being at risk of losing their account because of an in game emote the devs themselves made to be quite hilarious.
And also quite terrifying, but discussions about this topic are always fun to participate in or at least watch the dumpster fire.
See, I'm all down for people getting punished for verbal harassment or threats. But the minute you start to incorporate in-game actions that the devs have specifically made into that argument.... It suddenly becomes way different.
There's a reason why no other MMO bans players for spamming emotes like eso apparently does.
That said, I do appreciate the discussion me boyo.
Desperation?
The fact that you are wrong induces no desperation in me; the fact that you are making so much effort to spread misinformation based on what you believe should be true rather than what the official company position has been expressed to be is discouraging and it is my genuine hope that @ZOS_GinaBruno will come to clarify the rules so that people who have been reading your opinions on the matter do not interpret them as fact and get themselves banned with bad behaviour
but as you have referred to a game company having control over their product that users sign a terms of service to engage with being "terrifying" is outright funny
like, was aware that people who cry over how they don't like what the rules are are simply scared that their behaviour will run them afoul of the rules
but to see it expressed as "terrifying" to face consequences for bad behaviour is really fascinating and comical
The fact someone can lose their account because they spam an emote just because someone told them not to and it is considered bad behavior in a game that is 18+ is quite terrifying, yeah. Nobody should have to face """consequences""" for spamming an emote after being told no. Plain and simple. If I sit there and dance around a player and they tell me to stop and I don't, is that considered harassment?
And I also think that if that's the case then it should be outlined clearly in the ToS that using certain emotes against the consent of the opposing party could lead to your account getting suspended.
As a final note, I do think we could agree on that point at the very least. It should be more clear and less vague.
And if @ZOS_GinaBruno herself comes here and reveals clearly once and for all that throwing mudballs is bannable in certain conditions, I will sincerely apologize personally for spreading misinformation. Until then, it's simply information that is up for respectful debate.0 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There was no verbal or physical harassment, Gina said that that player 'should stop' not have to stop.
I'm going to quote the part of Gina's post that doesn't agree with you; "As with all forms of harassment, if a player asks you to stop a behavior, you need to stop."
So there was no verbal or physical harassment, but since the player was asked to stop amd didn't, there absolutely was harassment, according to Gina. Perhaps you missed that part of her followup to the Discord post?
Not going to argue with you over a mudball. It is not harassment in any way. Period. if ZoS decides to classify it as harassments they will be setting up a very unhealthy precedent. Everything in the game that players can interact with will come into subject. Watch what you wish for.
you forgot to tag @ZOS_GinaBruno to ask her to personally clarify if when she previously stated all forms of harassment she meant all forms of harassment, or if she means all forms of harassment except this one
you mean all forms of harassment that the devs didn't specifically program into the game?
Like, let's just be honest here, if the mudball thing was an actual issue ZoS would have removed it by now. It's pretty simple.
Mudballs are not an issue when they are not used to harass people
somehow you equate "people should not be allowed to harass others" with "people should not be allowed to throw mudballs at anyone ever"
despite your narrative, that is not the case; plenty of people find mudballs fun and plenty of people do not use them to harass others
a small toxic minority of players will use any means necessary to harass others tho, and it is much better for ZOS to remove those players than remove decent systems that are otherwise fun
You genuinely believe that it's a better business practice for ZoS to LOSE customers than to remove an emote or just simply do what they are doing now: nothing at all?
That's..... uh.... kind of a yikes take, tbh. I don't think the ZoS stockholders would appreciate knowing they're losing out on money and revenue because some people can't handle a mudball spam now and then.
See, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
It's a very slippery slope to go down and I don't think anyone here would like the destination.
It's not about my beliefs in this case, it's about my experiences moderating for a gaming company in a corporate setting and the positions of the upper management in those instances
it is viewed as much less of a loss to get rid of a single toxic player than to lose the multiple players that report them
can comprehend that you have a lot of personal feelings or beliefs about why you may not agree with such business practices, am not really interested in those so much as the facts of what ZOS position has been expressed to be
Right, but here's the thing with your first bit of experience there. People like OP won't be lost to the game or company because they will NEVER see the mudballer again or remember their name.
So, they can either choose to not lose a thing or to get rid of a potentially very high paying customer just because of an emote the devs created. At that point with my experience in corporate, if the feature is deemed to lead to extremely toxic behavior then it should be removed or at the very least be given an option to turn off by clicking ignore on the player.
But, it also isn't a reportable thing because it's a feature the devs implemented.
Right but here's the thing with your lack of experience -- ZOS has to manage a community and has the tools to do so
you apparently do not even comprehend the tools because you posed me the question
which is simply not true and demonstrates that you are not thinking of this issue from the perspective of the gaming company but instead from the perspective of a gamer defending player toxicitySee, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
Chat logs will show that the player was asked to stop. Activity logs will show that the player continued. It's not some case where ZOS can't see what goes on in alleyways in their servers, everything we do in game can be observed and logged
you keep framing hypotheticals according to your standards in response to being told about how cases are handled in the real world
Oh no, believe me. I know they have the tools to go through chat logs and see player actions.
But tell me: you seriously believe. And I mean seriously believe that they have someone over at ZoS that looks through mudball tickets and dives that deep server-side to check their validity?
That, my friend, shows your lack of experience. Imagine someone actually getting paid a career level salary to sit there and look through mudball reports. The mere idea is insane. Each second they spend on a mudball reports is time that could be spent on other more serious, actual harassment reports.
I have friends who do get paid for the exact sort of work you are proclaiming is insane that someone be paid for
again, recognize that you have a bunch of feelings and beliefs on this issue and that you are desperate to express them because you are upset by your interpretation of events
that does not change the reality of online businesses taking harassment claims seriously
The only one displaying any sign of desperation here is the one trying to convince me they have friends that totally do stuff in the industry because Trust Me Bro.
That said though, I actually don't have a bunch of feelings or beliefs on this issue that can't be summed up simply. I just find the idea of someone being at risk of losing their account because of an in game emote the devs themselves made to be quite hilarious.
And also quite terrifying, but discussions about this topic are always fun to participate in or at least watch the dumpster fire.
See, I'm all down for people getting punished for verbal harassment or threats. But the minute you start to incorporate in-game actions that the devs have specifically made into that argument.... It suddenly becomes way different.
There's a reason why no other MMO bans players for spamming emotes like eso apparently does.
That said, I do appreciate the discussion me boyo.
Desperation?
The fact that you are wrong induces no desperation in me; the fact that you are making so much effort to spread misinformation based on what you believe should be true rather than what the official company position has been expressed to be is discouraging and it is my genuine hope that @ZOS_GinaBruno will come to clarify the rules so that people who have been reading your opinions on the matter do not interpret them as fact and get themselves banned with bad behaviour
but as you have referred to a game company having control over their product that users sign a terms of service to engage with being "terrifying" is outright funny
like, was aware that people who cry over how they don't like what the rules are are simply scared that their behaviour will run them afoul of the rules
but to see it expressed as "terrifying" to face consequences for bad behaviour is really fascinating and comical
The fact someone can lose their account because they spam an emote just because someone told them not to and it is considered bad behavior in a game that is 18+ is quite terrifying, yeah. Nobody should have to face """consequences""" for spamming an emote after being told no. Plain and simple. If I sit there and dance around a player and they tell me to stop and I don't, is that considered harassment?
And I also think that if that's the case then it should be outlined clearly in the ToS that using certain emotes against the consent of the opposing party could lead to your account getting suspended.
As a final note, I do think we could agree on that point at the very least. It should be more clear and less vague.
And if @ZOS_GinaBruno herself comes here and reveals clearly once and for all that throwing mudballs is bannable in certain conditions, I will sincerely apologize personally for spreading misinformation. Until then, it's simply information that is up for respectful debate.
She did that six months ago.
Please stop with the 18+ business. It’s M (17) in the US and 16 in Germany. Not that that has any bearing on one’s ability to abide by the ToS or CoC or explicit requests of employees.0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There was no verbal or physical harassment, Gina said that that player 'should stop' not have to stop.
I'm going to quote the part of Gina's post that doesn't agree with you; "As with all forms of harassment, if a player asks you to stop a behavior, you need to stop."
So there was no verbal or physical harassment, but since the player was asked to stop amd didn't, there absolutely was harassment, according to Gina. Perhaps you missed that part of her followup to the Discord post?
Not going to argue with you over a mudball. It is not harassment in any way. Period. if ZoS decides to classify it as harassments they will be setting up a very unhealthy precedent. Everything in the game that players can interact with will come into subject. Watch what you wish for.
you forgot to tag @ZOS_GinaBruno to ask her to personally clarify if when she previously stated all forms of harassment she meant all forms of harassment, or if she means all forms of harassment except this one
you mean all forms of harassment that the devs didn't specifically program into the game?
Like, let's just be honest here, if the mudball thing was an actual issue ZoS would have removed it by now. It's pretty simple.
Mudballs are not an issue when they are not used to harass people
somehow you equate "people should not be allowed to harass others" with "people should not be allowed to throw mudballs at anyone ever"
despite your narrative, that is not the case; plenty of people find mudballs fun and plenty of people do not use them to harass others
a small toxic minority of players will use any means necessary to harass others tho, and it is much better for ZOS to remove those players than remove decent systems that are otherwise fun
You genuinely believe that it's a better business practice for ZoS to LOSE customers than to remove an emote or just simply do what they are doing now: nothing at all?
That's..... uh.... kind of a yikes take, tbh. I don't think the ZoS stockholders would appreciate knowing they're losing out on money and revenue because some people can't handle a mudball spam now and then.
See, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
It's a very slippery slope to go down and I don't think anyone here would like the destination.
It's not about my beliefs in this case, it's about my experiences moderating for a gaming company in a corporate setting and the positions of the upper management in those instances
it is viewed as much less of a loss to get rid of a single toxic player than to lose the multiple players that report them
can comprehend that you have a lot of personal feelings or beliefs about why you may not agree with such business practices, am not really interested in those so much as the facts of what ZOS position has been expressed to be
Right, but here's the thing with your first bit of experience there. People like OP won't be lost to the game or company because they will NEVER see the mudballer again or remember their name.
So, they can either choose to not lose a thing or to get rid of a potentially very high paying customer just because of an emote the devs created. At that point with my experience in corporate, if the feature is deemed to lead to extremely toxic behavior then it should be removed or at the very least be given an option to turn off by clicking ignore on the player.
But, it also isn't a reportable thing because it's a feature the devs implemented.
Right but here's the thing with your lack of experience -- ZOS has to manage a community and has the tools to do so
you apparently do not even comprehend the tools because you posed me the question
which is simply not true and demonstrates that you are not thinking of this issue from the perspective of the gaming company but instead from the perspective of a gamer defending player toxicitySee, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
Chat logs will show that the player was asked to stop. Activity logs will show that the player continued. It's not some case where ZOS can't see what goes on in alleyways in their servers, everything we do in game can be observed and logged
you keep framing hypotheticals according to your standards in response to being told about how cases are handled in the real world
Oh no, believe me. I know they have the tools to go through chat logs and see player actions.
But tell me: you seriously believe. And I mean seriously believe that they have someone over at ZoS that looks through mudball tickets and dives that deep server-side to check their validity?
That, my friend, shows your lack of experience. Imagine someone actually getting paid a career level salary to sit there and look through mudball reports. The mere idea is insane. Each second they spend on a mudball reports is time that could be spent on other more serious, actual harassment reports.
I have friends who do get paid for the exact sort of work you are proclaiming is insane that someone be paid for
again, recognize that you have a bunch of feelings and beliefs on this issue and that you are desperate to express them because you are upset by your interpretation of events
that does not change the reality of online businesses taking harassment claims seriously
The only one displaying any sign of desperation here is the one trying to convince me they have friends that totally do stuff in the industry because Trust Me Bro.
That said though, I actually don't have a bunch of feelings or beliefs on this issue that can't be summed up simply. I just find the idea of someone being at risk of losing their account because of an in game emote the devs themselves made to be quite hilarious.
And also quite terrifying, but discussions about this topic are always fun to participate in or at least watch the dumpster fire.
See, I'm all down for people getting punished for verbal harassment or threats. But the minute you start to incorporate in-game actions that the devs have specifically made into that argument.... It suddenly becomes way different.
There's a reason why no other MMO bans players for spamming emotes like eso apparently does.
That said, I do appreciate the discussion me boyo.
Desperation?
The fact that you are wrong induces no desperation in me; the fact that you are making so much effort to spread misinformation based on what you believe should be true rather than what the official company position has been expressed to be is discouraging and it is my genuine hope that @ZOS_GinaBruno will come to clarify the rules so that people who have been reading your opinions on the matter do not interpret them as fact and get themselves banned with bad behaviour
but as you have referred to a game company having control over their product that users sign a terms of service to engage with being "terrifying" is outright funny
like, was aware that people who cry over how they don't like what the rules are are simply scared that their behaviour will run them afoul of the rules
but to see it expressed as "terrifying" to face consequences for bad behaviour is really fascinating and comical
The fact someone can lose their account because they spam an emote just because someone told them not to and it is considered bad behavior in a game that is 18+ is quite terrifying, yeah. Nobody should have to face """consequences""" for spamming an emote after being told no. Plain and simple. If I sit there and dance around a player and they tell me to stop and I don't, is that considered harassment?
And I also think that if that's the case then it should be outlined clearly in the ToS that using certain emotes against the consent of the opposing party could lead to your account getting suspended.
As a final note, I do think we could agree on that point at the very least. It should be more clear and less vague.
And if @ZOS_GinaBruno herself comes here and reveals clearly once and for all that throwing mudballs is bannable in certain conditions, I will sincerely apologize personally for spreading misinformation. Until then, it's simply information that is up for respectful debate.
You can not use your logick with some people.
They do not try to understand or some thing.
Even the same situation they will say different.
Just becouse they want, not becouse it is good, bad wrong or right.
So tactick to show such people, that they are wrong will not work.
They can just want to make some thing bad to other people. So you need to keep it in mind when you arquing with such people.
Some emotion is just the wire, not a real deal.1 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There was no verbal or physical harassment, Gina said that that player 'should stop' not have to stop.
I'm going to quote the part of Gina's post that doesn't agree with you; "As with all forms of harassment, if a player asks you to stop a behavior, you need to stop."
So there was no verbal or physical harassment, but since the player was asked to stop amd didn't, there absolutely was harassment, according to Gina. Perhaps you missed that part of her followup to the Discord post?
Not going to argue with you over a mudball. It is not harassment in any way. Period. if ZoS decides to classify it as harassments they will be setting up a very unhealthy precedent. Everything in the game that players can interact with will come into subject. Watch what you wish for.
you forgot to tag @ZOS_GinaBruno to ask her to personally clarify if when she previously stated all forms of harassment she meant all forms of harassment, or if she means all forms of harassment except this one
you mean all forms of harassment that the devs didn't specifically program into the game?
Like, let's just be honest here, if the mudball thing was an actual issue ZoS would have removed it by now. It's pretty simple.
Mudballs are not an issue when they are not used to harass people
somehow you equate "people should not be allowed to harass others" with "people should not be allowed to throw mudballs at anyone ever"
despite your narrative, that is not the case; plenty of people find mudballs fun and plenty of people do not use them to harass others
a small toxic minority of players will use any means necessary to harass others tho, and it is much better for ZOS to remove those players than remove decent systems that are otherwise fun
You genuinely believe that it's a better business practice for ZoS to LOSE customers than to remove an emote or just simply do what they are doing now: nothing at all?
That's..... uh.... kind of a yikes take, tbh. I don't think the ZoS stockholders would appreciate knowing they're losing out on money and revenue because some people can't handle a mudball spam now and then.
See, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
It's a very slippery slope to go down and I don't think anyone here would like the destination.
It's not about my beliefs in this case, it's about my experiences moderating for a gaming company in a corporate setting and the positions of the upper management in those instances
it is viewed as much less of a loss to get rid of a single toxic player than to lose the multiple players that report them
can comprehend that you have a lot of personal feelings or beliefs about why you may not agree with such business practices, am not really interested in those so much as the facts of what ZOS position has been expressed to be
Right, but here's the thing with your first bit of experience there. People like OP won't be lost to the game or company because they will NEVER see the mudballer again or remember their name.
So, they can either choose to not lose a thing or to get rid of a potentially very high paying customer just because of an emote the devs created. At that point with my experience in corporate, if the feature is deemed to lead to extremely toxic behavior then it should be removed or at the very least be given an option to turn off by clicking ignore on the player.
But, it also isn't a reportable thing because it's a feature the devs implemented.
Right but here's the thing with your lack of experience -- ZOS has to manage a community and has the tools to do so
you apparently do not even comprehend the tools because you posed me the question
which is simply not true and demonstrates that you are not thinking of this issue from the perspective of the gaming company but instead from the perspective of a gamer defending player toxicitySee, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
Chat logs will show that the player was asked to stop. Activity logs will show that the player continued. It's not some case where ZOS can't see what goes on in alleyways in their servers, everything we do in game can be observed and logged
you keep framing hypotheticals according to your standards in response to being told about how cases are handled in the real world
Oh no, believe me. I know they have the tools to go through chat logs and see player actions.
But tell me: you seriously believe. And I mean seriously believe that they have someone over at ZoS that looks through mudball tickets and dives that deep server-side to check their validity?
That, my friend, shows your lack of experience. Imagine someone actually getting paid a career level salary to sit there and look through mudball reports. The mere idea is insane. Each second they spend on a mudball reports is time that could be spent on other more serious, actual harassment reports.
I have friends who do get paid for the exact sort of work you are proclaiming is insane that someone be paid for
again, recognize that you have a bunch of feelings and beliefs on this issue and that you are desperate to express them because you are upset by your interpretation of events
that does not change the reality of online businesses taking harassment claims seriously
The only one displaying any sign of desperation here is the one trying to convince me they have friends that totally do stuff in the industry because Trust Me Bro.
That said though, I actually don't have a bunch of feelings or beliefs on this issue that can't be summed up simply. I just find the idea of someone being at risk of losing their account because of an in game emote the devs themselves made to be quite hilarious.
And also quite terrifying, but discussions about this topic are always fun to participate in or at least watch the dumpster fire.
See, I'm all down for people getting punished for verbal harassment or threats. But the minute you start to incorporate in-game actions that the devs have specifically made into that argument.... It suddenly becomes way different.
There's a reason why no other MMO bans players for spamming emotes like eso apparently does.
That said, I do appreciate the discussion me boyo.
Desperation?
The fact that you are wrong induces no desperation in me; the fact that you are making so much effort to spread misinformation based on what you believe should be true rather than what the official company position has been expressed to be is discouraging and it is my genuine hope that @ZOS_GinaBruno will come to clarify the rules so that people who have been reading your opinions on the matter do not interpret them as fact and get themselves banned with bad behaviour
but as you have referred to a game company having control over their product that users sign a terms of service to engage with being "terrifying" is outright funny
like, was aware that people who cry over how they don't like what the rules are are simply scared that their behaviour will run them afoul of the rules
but to see it expressed as "terrifying" to face consequences for bad behaviour is really fascinating and comical
The fact someone can lose their account because they spam an emote just because someone told them not to and it is considered bad behavior in a game that is 18+ is quite terrifying, yeah.
Not when you consider that every adult who signs up for this game agrees to a terms of service that said they would not harass others but then try to act like they should not have to abide by that rule is far more terrifying
imagine the possibility of people who believe they should bear no responsibility for their actions, that they should not have to "risk" their presence in a community to make the community unpleasant for others.
yikes. kids used to be raised with basic manners, what happened?WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »Nobody should have to face """consequences""" for spamming an emote after being told no.
Why not?
Because if they do it hurts your feelings? Because if they do it violates your beliefs?
The reality is they signed terms that said they would accept any such consequences; hell the Terms we sign literally gives the company power to delete our accounts *without* reason
that should scare you more than toxic actions being punishedWhereArtThouVampires wrote: »If I sit there and dance around a player and they tell me to stop and I don't, is that considered harassment?
False equivalence, but you know that because you have tried to make so many of them in this thread already and all of them have fallen flat
but to clarify for those who may read your posts and think they are serious: mudballing another player directly impact their character model while dancing does not
even then I think dancing or luting *can* be reported if you do things like use it to try and spoil a roleplaying session
any company deals with such things case-by-caseWhereArtThouVampires wrote: »And I also think that if that's the case then it should be outlined clearly in the ToS that using certain emotes against the consent of the opposing party could lead to your account getting suspended.
The TOS already say this in section 8:You agree not to access, receive, play or use any Service to:
Harass, stalk, threaten, embarrass, spam or do anything else to another user of any Services that is unwanted
you agree not to engage in unwanted behaviour towards others; and someone asking you to stop is a very clear indication a behaviour is unwantedWhereArtThouVampires wrote: »As a final note, I do think we could agree on that point at the very least. It should be more clear and less vague.
And if @ZOS_GinaBruno herself comes here and reveals clearly once and for all that throwing mudballs is bannable in certain conditions, I will sincerely apologize personally for spreading misinformation. Until then, it's simply information that is up for respectful debate.
Can respect this position but do not think it is anywhere near as vague as you seem to think"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
1 -
Flaaklypa✭✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There was no verbal or physical harassment, Gina said that that player 'should stop' not have to stop.
I'm going to quote the part of Gina's post that doesn't agree with you; "As with all forms of harassment, if a player asks you to stop a behavior, you need to stop."
So there was no verbal or physical harassment, but since the player was asked to stop amd didn't, there absolutely was harassment, according to Gina. Perhaps you missed that part of her followup to the Discord post?
Not going to argue with you over a mudball. It is not harassment in any way. Period. if ZoS decides to classify it as harassments they will be setting up a very unhealthy precedent. Everything in the game that players can interact with will come into subject. Watch what you wish for.
you forgot to tag @ZOS_GinaBruno to ask her to personally clarify if when she previously stated all forms of harassment she meant all forms of harassment, or if she means all forms of harassment except this one
you mean all forms of harassment that the devs didn't specifically program into the game?
Like, let's just be honest here, if the mudball thing was an actual issue ZoS would have removed it by now. It's pretty simple.
Mudballs are not an issue when they are not used to harass people
somehow you equate "people should not be allowed to harass others" with "people should not be allowed to throw mudballs at anyone ever"
despite your narrative, that is not the case; plenty of people find mudballs fun and plenty of people do not use them to harass others
a small toxic minority of players will use any means necessary to harass others tho, and it is much better for ZOS to remove those players than remove decent systems that are otherwise fun
You genuinely believe that it's a better business practice for ZoS to LOSE customers than to remove an emote or just simply do what they are doing now: nothing at all?
That's..... uh.... kind of a yikes take, tbh. I don't think the ZoS stockholders would appreciate knowing they're losing out on money and revenue because some people can't handle a mudball spam now and then.
See, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
It's a very slippery slope to go down and I don't think anyone here would like the destination.
It's not about my beliefs in this case, it's about my experiences moderating for a gaming company in a corporate setting and the positions of the upper management in those instances
it is viewed as much less of a loss to get rid of a single toxic player than to lose the multiple players that report them
can comprehend that you have a lot of personal feelings or beliefs about why you may not agree with such business practices, am not really interested in those so much as the facts of what ZOS position has been expressed to be
Right, but here's the thing with your first bit of experience there. People like OP won't be lost to the game or company because they will NEVER see the mudballer again or remember their name.
So, they can either choose to not lose a thing or to get rid of a potentially very high paying customer just because of an emote the devs created. At that point with my experience in corporate, if the feature is deemed to lead to extremely toxic behavior then it should be removed or at the very least be given an option to turn off by clicking ignore on the player.
But, it also isn't a reportable thing because it's a feature the devs implemented.
Right but here's the thing with your lack of experience -- ZOS has to manage a community and has the tools to do so
you apparently do not even comprehend the tools because you posed me the question
which is simply not true and demonstrates that you are not thinking of this issue from the perspective of the gaming company but instead from the perspective of a gamer defending player toxicitySee, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
Chat logs will show that the player was asked to stop. Activity logs will show that the player continued. It's not some case where ZOS can't see what goes on in alleyways in their servers, everything we do in game can be observed and logged
you keep framing hypotheticals according to your standards in response to being told about how cases are handled in the real world
Oh no, believe me. I know they have the tools to go through chat logs and see player actions.
But tell me: you seriously believe. And I mean seriously believe that they have someone over at ZoS that looks through mudball tickets and dives that deep server-side to check their validity?
That, my friend, shows your lack of experience. Imagine someone actually getting paid a career level salary to sit there and look through mudball reports. The mere idea is insane. Each second they spend on a mudball reports is time that could be spent on other more serious, actual harassment reports.
I have friends who do get paid for the exact sort of work you are proclaiming is insane that someone be paid for
again, recognize that you have a bunch of feelings and beliefs on this issue and that you are desperate to express them because you are upset by your interpretation of events
that does not change the reality of online businesses taking harassment claims seriously
The only one displaying any sign of desperation here is the one trying to convince me they have friends that totally do stuff in the industry because Trust Me Bro.
That said though, I actually don't have a bunch of feelings or beliefs on this issue that can't be summed up simply. I just find the idea of someone being at risk of losing their account because of an in game emote the devs themselves made to be quite hilarious.
And also quite terrifying, but discussions about this topic are always fun to participate in or at least watch the dumpster fire.
See, I'm all down for people getting punished for verbal harassment or threats. But the minute you start to incorporate in-game actions that the devs have specifically made into that argument.... It suddenly becomes way different.
There's a reason why no other MMO bans players for spamming emotes like eso apparently does.
That said, I do appreciate the discussion me boyo.
Desperation?
The fact that you are wrong induces no desperation in me; the fact that you are making so much effort to spread misinformation based on what you believe should be true rather than what the official company position has been expressed to be is discouraging and it is my genuine hope that @ZOS_GinaBruno will come to clarify the rules so that people who have been reading your opinions on the matter do not interpret them as fact and get themselves banned with bad behaviour
but as you have referred to a game company having control over their product that users sign a terms of service to engage with being "terrifying" is outright funny
like, was aware that people who cry over how they don't like what the rules are are simply scared that their behaviour will run them afoul of the rules
but to see it expressed as "terrifying" to face consequences for bad behaviour is really fascinating and comical
The fact someone can lose their account because they spam an emote just because someone told them not to and it is considered bad behavior in a game that is 18+ is quite terrifying, yeah. Nobody should have to face """consequences""" for spamming an emote after being told no. Plain and simple. If I sit there and dance around a player and they tell me to stop and I don't, is that considered harassment?
And I also think that if that's the case then it should be outlined clearly in the ToS that using certain emotes against the consent of the opposing party could lead to your account getting suspended.
As a final note, I do think we could agree on that point at the very least. It should be more clear and less vague.
And if @ZOS_GinaBruno herself comes here and reveals clearly once and for all that throwing mudballs is bannable in certain conditions, I will sincerely apologize personally for spreading misinformation. Until then, it's simply information that is up for respectful debate.
She doesnt have to. you seem to totally disregard and forget that literally someone posted here that when someone threatend they would throw mudballs at people with a mount, it was a break of this games ToS. and yeah stop with the 18+ BS, people like different things in this game, for example roleplay. and when roleplaying its obviously immersion breaking when someone runs over and throws mud at you. and when asked to stop, they should stop. Failure to do so SHOULD be reportable.Edited by Flaaklypa on March 10, 2021 12:28PM1 -
Flaaklypa✭✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There was no verbal or physical harassment, Gina said that that player 'should stop' not have to stop.
I'm going to quote the part of Gina's post that doesn't agree with you; "As with all forms of harassment, if a player asks you to stop a behavior, you need to stop."
So there was no verbal or physical harassment, but since the player was asked to stop amd didn't, there absolutely was harassment, according to Gina. Perhaps you missed that part of her followup to the Discord post?
Not going to argue with you over a mudball. It is not harassment in any way. Period. if ZoS decides to classify it as harassments they will be setting up a very unhealthy precedent. Everything in the game that players can interact with will come into subject. Watch what you wish for.
you forgot to tag @ZOS_GinaBruno to ask her to personally clarify if when she previously stated all forms of harassment she meant all forms of harassment, or if she means all forms of harassment except this one
you mean all forms of harassment that the devs didn't specifically program into the game?
Like, let's just be honest here, if the mudball thing was an actual issue ZoS would have removed it by now. It's pretty simple.
Mudballs are not an issue when they are not used to harass people
somehow you equate "people should not be allowed to harass others" with "people should not be allowed to throw mudballs at anyone ever"
despite your narrative, that is not the case; plenty of people find mudballs fun and plenty of people do not use them to harass others
a small toxic minority of players will use any means necessary to harass others tho, and it is much better for ZOS to remove those players than remove decent systems that are otherwise fun
You genuinely believe that it's a better business practice for ZoS to LOSE customers than to remove an emote or just simply do what they are doing now: nothing at all?
That's..... uh.... kind of a yikes take, tbh. I don't think the ZoS stockholders would appreciate knowing they're losing out on money and revenue because some people can't handle a mudball spam now and then.
See, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
It's a very slippery slope to go down and I don't think anyone here would like the destination.
It's not about my beliefs in this case, it's about my experiences moderating for a gaming company in a corporate setting and the positions of the upper management in those instances
it is viewed as much less of a loss to get rid of a single toxic player than to lose the multiple players that report them
can comprehend that you have a lot of personal feelings or beliefs about why you may not agree with such business practices, am not really interested in those so much as the facts of what ZOS position has been expressed to be
Right, but here's the thing with your first bit of experience there. People like OP won't be lost to the game or company because they will NEVER see the mudballer again or remember their name.
So, they can either choose to not lose a thing or to get rid of a potentially very high paying customer just because of an emote the devs created. At that point with my experience in corporate, if the feature is deemed to lead to extremely toxic behavior then it should be removed or at the very least be given an option to turn off by clicking ignore on the player.
But, it also isn't a reportable thing because it's a feature the devs implemented.
Right but here's the thing with your lack of experience -- ZOS has to manage a community and has the tools to do so
you apparently do not even comprehend the tools because you posed me the question
which is simply not true and demonstrates that you are not thinking of this issue from the perspective of the gaming company but instead from the perspective of a gamer defending player toxicitySee, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
Chat logs will show that the player was asked to stop. Activity logs will show that the player continued. It's not some case where ZOS can't see what goes on in alleyways in their servers, everything we do in game can be observed and logged
you keep framing hypotheticals according to your standards in response to being told about how cases are handled in the real world
Oh no, believe me. I know they have the tools to go through chat logs and see player actions.
But tell me: you seriously believe. And I mean seriously believe that they have someone over at ZoS that looks through mudball tickets and dives that deep server-side to check their validity?
That, my friend, shows your lack of experience. Imagine someone actually getting paid a career level salary to sit there and look through mudball reports. The mere idea is insane. Each second they spend on a mudball reports is time that could be spent on other more serious, actual harassment reports.
I have friends who do get paid for the exact sort of work you are proclaiming is insane that someone be paid for
again, recognize that you have a bunch of feelings and beliefs on this issue and that you are desperate to express them because you are upset by your interpretation of events
that does not change the reality of online businesses taking harassment claims seriously
The only one displaying any sign of desperation here is the one trying to convince me they have friends that totally do stuff in the industry because Trust Me Bro.
That said though, I actually don't have a bunch of feelings or beliefs on this issue that can't be summed up simply. I just find the idea of someone being at risk of losing their account because of an in game emote the devs themselves made to be quite hilarious.
And also quite terrifying, but discussions about this topic are always fun to participate in or at least watch the dumpster fire.
See, I'm all down for people getting punished for verbal harassment or threats. But the minute you start to incorporate in-game actions that the devs have specifically made into that argument.... It suddenly becomes way different.
There's a reason why no other MMO bans players for spamming emotes like eso apparently does.
That said, I do appreciate the discussion me boyo.
Desperation?
The fact that you are wrong induces no desperation in me; the fact that you are making so much effort to spread misinformation based on what you believe should be true rather than what the official company position has been expressed to be is discouraging and it is my genuine hope that @ZOS_GinaBruno will come to clarify the rules so that people who have been reading your opinions on the matter do not interpret them as fact and get themselves banned with bad behaviour
but as you have referred to a game company having control over their product that users sign a terms of service to engage with being "terrifying" is outright funny
like, was aware that people who cry over how they don't like what the rules are are simply scared that their behaviour will run them afoul of the rules
but to see it expressed as "terrifying" to face consequences for bad behaviour is really fascinating and comical
The fact someone can lose their account because they spam an emote just because someone told them not to and it is considered bad behavior in a game that is 18+ is quite terrifying, yeah.
Not when you consider that every adult who signs up for this game agrees to a terms of service that said they would not harass others but then try to act like they should not have to abide by that rule is far more terrifying
imagine the possibility of people who believe they should bear no responsibility for their actions, that they should not have to "risk" their presence in a community to make the community unpleasant for others.
yikes. kids used to be raised with basic manners, what happened?WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »Nobody should have to face """consequences""" for spamming an emote after being told no.
Why not?
Because if they do it hurts your feelings? Because if they do it violates your beliefs?
The reality is they signed terms that said they would accept any such consequences; hell the Terms we sign literally gives the company power to delete our accounts *without* reason
that should scare you more than toxic actions being punishedWhereArtThouVampires wrote: »If I sit there and dance around a player and they tell me to stop and I don't, is that considered harassment?
False equivalence, but you know that because you have tried to make so many of them in this thread already and all of them have fallen flat
but to clarify for those who may read your posts and think they are serious: mudballing another player directly impact their character model while dancing does not
even then I think dancing or luting *can* be reported if you do things like use it to try and spoil a roleplaying session
any company deals with such things case-by-caseWhereArtThouVampires wrote: »And I also think that if that's the case then it should be outlined clearly in the ToS that using certain emotes against the consent of the opposing party could lead to your account getting suspended.
The TOS already say this in section 8:You agree not to access, receive, play or use any Service to:
Harass, stalk, threaten, embarrass, spam or do anything else to another user of any Services that is unwanted
you agree not to engage in unwanted behaviour towards others; and someone asking you to stop is a very clear indication a behaviour is unwantedWhereArtThouVampires wrote: »As a final note, I do think we could agree on that point at the very least. It should be more clear and less vague.
And if @ZOS_GinaBruno herself comes here and reveals clearly once and for all that throwing mudballs is bannable in certain conditions, I will sincerely apologize personally for spreading misinformation. Until then, it's simply information that is up for respectful debate.
Can respect this position but do not think it is anywhere near as vague as you seem to think
Well said! I read through this thread, and i respect that you didnt budge! I also wholeheartedly agree with the OP. Throwing mudballs is no problem, targetted harrassment by throwing mudballs (or any other thing, WHEN TOLD TO STOP) IS.
3 -
Flaaklypa✭✭✭✭Alas, this feels like the old tea-bag thread. and due to the overwhelming disagreements in this thread i can hadly believe it will remain open for long1
-
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭When you start to say about T-bag it was already a mistake.
Ban for in game function and in game option is wrong thing.
You can not ban people just because they do in game thingth there.
Players can solve their problems themselve.
May be only chat can be moderated this way.
But if some in game rules like that - you always get envious person, who just do not like some thing, just because others are happy.
So no in game actions must not be banned !!!
The only exeption can be cheaters, hackers - who use PO, exploit and etc with some external program.
Or normal people will not even play the game.
All in game situation is in game situation players can solve them self. If it is not against real life law. Like gather group to do some thing bad in real life.
Other way you will just get:
He play good - ban them.
I do not like what he is doing - ban them.
He stand 1000 meters near me, ban them.
Do you want thingth like this ?
0 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Alas, this feels like the old tea-bag thread. and due to the overwhelming disagreements in this thread i can hadly believe it will remain open for long
it's already four pages longer than I would expect; strange particularly for a weeknight with a maintenance"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
2 -
Grandesdar✭✭✭I was hoping for a troll post, but it's serious. I don't see how mudball can make someone feel harassed or how it is possible to stay side by side so long with a stranger in an area (doing crafts maybe?) And neither goes to another location. Most of the times I don't even notice the mud if I'm not up close and screenshoting my char. It just felt a bit exaggerated I don't know.Main: The Charismatic StamDK DD
Side: A Handsome Warden Healer
Side: (upcoming) Stam Necro DD
CP: 680
EU PSN: Style35131 -
WhereArtThouVampires✭✭✭✭.WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »I suppose that's my final stance on it. Legit just make it to where if you ignore a player then all their emotes are disabled on your screen.
So five pages in your final position is that you agree with the OP who suggested:IntenseRenegader wrote: »Please allow us to disable the visual effect of mudballs (in settings) so it can ruin this type of behaviour.
that's cool; just recognizing that the OP was absolutely ridiculed for taking the position you are now trying to gracefully bow out with
Nope, I don't agree with adding a settings option for it.
I agree with making it to where if you ignore a player then you can't see their emotes. Too very different things.
If you're going to call me out as im gracefully trying to leave like a swan into the sunset, at least do it right, my man.
am not a man, and will ask politely that you never misgender me on the forums again
you responded directly to a post from the OP stating:IntenseRenegader wrote: »its not really important what you do, but please change it. Its not fun getting harrassed by mudballs, knowing you cant do anything to stop it.
but instead of agreeing with this point that you apparently now whole-heartedly support, you replied to the OP's message saying that it was their own fault for being harassed
fully recognize that you are desperate on your way out to look like you proved a point in this thread tho, so you will likely have some other excuse about how what you are asking for is different from what OP asked for and how OP is thin skinned and your are noble and helpful
Ah, I see we've hit the territory where I'm supposed to be able to tell your gender through a name and a random profile pic.
Incorrect, we have hit the territory where you have now been politely informed of my gender and future efforts to misgender me are a form of harassmentWhereArtThouVampires wrote: »That's a big yikes from me, man.
Like this one
note that you have made this statement not based on my name and random profile pic, but instead in response to being directly told that I am not a manWhereArtThouVampires wrote: »Unfortunately for you, I call everyone man when I say "my man" or "what's up man." Saying "my woman" doesn't have a nice ring to it. So, you'll have to bear with me on that part. I also hate to inform you that "man" is a part of "woman." Thus why I also use it in a gender neutral context online like that.
That is not unfortunate for me -- you use gendered speech and after being politely asked not to do so you instead made the decision to try and justify intentionally harassing me with gendered speech
it may have been gender neutral context the first time, but the second time it was a decision on your part to engage in hurtful behaviour that you were asked not toWhereArtThouVampires wrote: »I will instead fully recognize that we were never going to be getting anywhere in this conversation if these are your expectations from picture-less fictional name forum interactions.
Now, I shall politely scoot on off.
And again you try to strawman a position to scoot off to -- my expectations are not somehow for you to go back and fix your error in your speech, my expectations were that you would do the bare minimum and respect my wishes when directly asked
instead you made a point of trying to use it as a tool against me in a thread where you have been getting upset that people may be punished for that exact sort of behaviour
personally realized this about you from the start, but it is nice to bring it out for people to read
I am very happy we were able to learn so much about each other during this thread.
We should absolutely do it again sometime. Edited by WhereArtThouVampires on March 10, 2021 12:47PM0 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: ».
No the issues is he was asked to stop and didn't. That's the issue.1 -
WhereArtThouVampires✭✭✭✭
tbh it did last a lot longer than usual. Was really expecting it to be locked by now.2 -
Neiska✭✭✭✭A few thoughts..
1. People can only insult you if you care about their opinion.
2. Its foolish to allow anyone else to define you, your happiness, your goals, your dreams, or your sense of self.
3. Rude/mean people exist. Its best to ignore them and let them go at each other than get involved.
It might be just me here but I go by live and let live. People do their thing, and I do mine, we meet in the middle somewhere. People who do things like call me names or throw mudballs can only bother me if I allow it to. Or I can take solace in thinking that person is just asking for attention, and is so needful for it they are willing to debase themselves just to get it. That's how I deal with griefers and trolls, and it's worked for me thus far.
And to be blunt, life is too short to sweat the small things, or let random strangers get to you. In all likelihood, you will never see them again, so why bother yourself or spend the effort troubling yourself over it?
But please don't take this as a "suck it up" sort of response, far from it. People react to stressors differently, and that is normal. I am only posting how I personally have learned to handle such things.
Best wishes to everyone out there.4 -
WhereArtThouVampires✭✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There was no verbal or physical harassment, Gina said that that player 'should stop' not have to stop.
I'm going to quote the part of Gina's post that doesn't agree with you; "As with all forms of harassment, if a player asks you to stop a behavior, you need to stop."
So there was no verbal or physical harassment, but since the player was asked to stop amd didn't, there absolutely was harassment, according to Gina. Perhaps you missed that part of her followup to the Discord post?
Not going to argue with you over a mudball. It is not harassment in any way. Period. if ZoS decides to classify it as harassments they will be setting up a very unhealthy precedent. Everything in the game that players can interact with will come into subject. Watch what you wish for.
you forgot to tag @ZOS_GinaBruno to ask her to personally clarify if when she previously stated all forms of harassment she meant all forms of harassment, or if she means all forms of harassment except this one
you mean all forms of harassment that the devs didn't specifically program into the game?
Like, let's just be honest here, if the mudball thing was an actual issue ZoS would have removed it by now. It's pretty simple.
Mudballs are not an issue when they are not used to harass people
somehow you equate "people should not be allowed to harass others" with "people should not be allowed to throw mudballs at anyone ever"
despite your narrative, that is not the case; plenty of people find mudballs fun and plenty of people do not use them to harass others
a small toxic minority of players will use any means necessary to harass others tho, and it is much better for ZOS to remove those players than remove decent systems that are otherwise fun
You genuinely believe that it's a better business practice for ZoS to LOSE customers than to remove an emote or just simply do what they are doing now: nothing at all?
That's..... uh.... kind of a yikes take, tbh. I don't think the ZoS stockholders would appreciate knowing they're losing out on money and revenue because some people can't handle a mudball spam now and then.
See, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
It's a very slippery slope to go down and I don't think anyone here would like the destination.
It's not about my beliefs in this case, it's about my experiences moderating for a gaming company in a corporate setting and the positions of the upper management in those instances
it is viewed as much less of a loss to get rid of a single toxic player than to lose the multiple players that report them
can comprehend that you have a lot of personal feelings or beliefs about why you may not agree with such business practices, am not really interested in those so much as the facts of what ZOS position has been expressed to be
Right, but here's the thing with your first bit of experience there. People like OP won't be lost to the game or company because they will NEVER see the mudballer again or remember their name.
So, they can either choose to not lose a thing or to get rid of a potentially very high paying customer just because of an emote the devs created. At that point with my experience in corporate, if the feature is deemed to lead to extremely toxic behavior then it should be removed or at the very least be given an option to turn off by clicking ignore on the player.
But, it also isn't a reportable thing because it's a feature the devs implemented.
Right but here's the thing with your lack of experience -- ZOS has to manage a community and has the tools to do so
you apparently do not even comprehend the tools because you posed me the question
which is simply not true and demonstrates that you are not thinking of this issue from the perspective of the gaming company but instead from the perspective of a gamer defending player toxicitySee, another issue with your statement is: When does "throwing a mudball at anyone ever" become 'harassment'? Technically speaking, you could report someone for throwing a mudball at you once and then they ran off. ZoS would be none the wiser.
Chat logs will show that the player was asked to stop. Activity logs will show that the player continued. It's not some case where ZOS can't see what goes on in alleyways in their servers, everything we do in game can be observed and logged
you keep framing hypotheticals according to your standards in response to being told about how cases are handled in the real world
Oh no, believe me. I know they have the tools to go through chat logs and see player actions.
But tell me: you seriously believe. And I mean seriously believe that they have someone over at ZoS that looks through mudball tickets and dives that deep server-side to check their validity?
That, my friend, shows your lack of experience. Imagine someone actually getting paid a career level salary to sit there and look through mudball reports. The mere idea is insane. Each second they spend on a mudball reports is time that could be spent on other more serious, actual harassment reports.
I have friends who do get paid for the exact sort of work you are proclaiming is insane that someone be paid for
again, recognize that you have a bunch of feelings and beliefs on this issue and that you are desperate to express them because you are upset by your interpretation of events
that does not change the reality of online businesses taking harassment claims seriously
The only one displaying any sign of desperation here is the one trying to convince me they have friends that totally do stuff in the industry because Trust Me Bro.
That said though, I actually don't have a bunch of feelings or beliefs on this issue that can't be summed up simply. I just find the idea of someone being at risk of losing their account because of an in game emote the devs themselves made to be quite hilarious.
And also quite terrifying, but discussions about this topic are always fun to participate in or at least watch the dumpster fire.
See, I'm all down for people getting punished for verbal harassment or threats. But the minute you start to incorporate in-game actions that the devs have specifically made into that argument.... It suddenly becomes way different.
There's a reason why no other MMO bans players for spamming emotes like eso apparently does.
That said, I do appreciate the discussion me boyo.
Desperation?
The fact that you are wrong induces no desperation in me; the fact that you are making so much effort to spread misinformation based on what you believe should be true rather than what the official company position has been expressed to be is discouraging and it is my genuine hope that @ZOS_GinaBruno will come to clarify the rules so that people who have been reading your opinions on the matter do not interpret them as fact and get themselves banned with bad behaviour
but as you have referred to a game company having control over their product that users sign a terms of service to engage with being "terrifying" is outright funny
like, was aware that people who cry over how they don't like what the rules are are simply scared that their behaviour will run them afoul of the rules
but to see it expressed as "terrifying" to face consequences for bad behaviour is really fascinating and comical
The fact someone can lose their account because they spam an emote just because someone told them not to and it is considered bad behavior in a game that is 18+ is quite terrifying, yeah.
Not when you consider that every adult who signs up for this game agrees to a terms of service that said they would not harass others but then try to act like they should not have to abide by that rule is far more terrifying
imagine the possibility of people who believe they should bear no responsibility for their actions, that they should not have to "risk" their presence in a community to make the community unpleasant for others.
yikes. kids used to be raised with basic manners, what happened?WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »Nobody should have to face """consequences""" for spamming an emote after being told no.
Why not?
Because if they do it hurts your feelings? Because if they do it violates your beliefs?
The reality is they signed terms that said they would accept any such consequences; hell the Terms we sign literally gives the company power to delete our accounts *without* reason
that should scare you more than toxic actions being punishedWhereArtThouVampires wrote: »If I sit there and dance around a player and they tell me to stop and I don't, is that considered harassment?
False equivalence, but you know that because you have tried to make so many of them in this thread already and all of them have fallen flat
but to clarify for those who may read your posts and think they are serious: mudballing another player directly impact their character model while dancing does not
even then I think dancing or luting *can* be reported if you do things like use it to try and spoil a roleplaying session
any company deals with such things case-by-caseWhereArtThouVampires wrote: »And I also think that if that's the case then it should be outlined clearly in the ToS that using certain emotes against the consent of the opposing party could lead to your account getting suspended.
The TOS already say this in section 8:You agree not to access, receive, play or use any Service to:
Harass, stalk, threaten, embarrass, spam or do anything else to another user of any Services that is unwanted
you agree not to engage in unwanted behaviour towards others; and someone asking you to stop is a very clear indication a behaviour is unwantedWhereArtThouVampires wrote: »As a final note, I do think we could agree on that point at the very least. It should be more clear and less vague.
And if @ZOS_GinaBruno herself comes here and reveals clearly once and for all that throwing mudballs is bannable in certain conditions, I will sincerely apologize personally for spreading misinformation. Until then, it's simply information that is up for respectful debate.
Can respect this position but do not think it is anywhere near as vague as you seem to think
Well said! I read through this thread, and i respect that you didnt budge! I also wholeheartedly agree with the OP. Throwing mudballs is no problem, targetted harrassment by throwing mudballs (or any other thing, WHEN TOLD TO STOP) IS.
Honestly, big agree. I for one can respect when someone doesn't budge in their argument.
Even if I come from the opposite end of things.
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