Oh and another very positive outcome of this is that the streamers and theorycrafters finally will stop with their cheesy PvP proc set builds and make everybody play them - at least for 6 months.

Elo106 wrote: »

Test is over everyone is talking about proc or no proc and we all stopped talking about how apparently nothing fixes the lag.
Well played Zos

Don't worry. Since apparently nothing fixes the lag, that'll be what we talk about for the next six months after we tire of griping about only using 19 sets and which classes are overpowered in a no-proc environment. I foresee lots of "nerf sorc" threads.

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

wazzz56 wrote: »

I can't wait to see all the crimson carried nubs floundering to deal with not having their "skill" for six months.

They will just run tighter, larger zergs. Thats what they do on PC now. Also what the OP is saying is it takes skills to counter those things or counter them by using other sets. I think a lot of people don't realize just how much of the game's sets are not usable right now. Once you get setup there really is no point in the rest of the games content. I wasn't a big PVE person but it made it somewhat fun when it got gear I wanted to try out in cyrodiil. Not now, no point already got the gear I need.

I get it, the 19 is a very slim number compared to what falls on the other side..and we could have hours of discussion on what should or shouldn't be lumped in...and I feel you about the farming and trying things ( 18 toons , 9 of which are nbs, all dif races and builds, I really like theory crafting and did enjoy the build variety of the last few patches), but I also realize that procs in this Proctopalypse (there have been prior procopalypsi , but this is seemingly the worst) had gotten waay outta control and needed to be addressed. I am not saying that procs don't have a place, but I think everyone can agree that the current "just slap on some crimson and malacath and cheese it up" style in cyro has sullied the idea of "skill" in pvp. I am am all for a pvp situation that is closer to pre 1t and 1.6 days.....also, on a side note, you make some of the most entertaining vids out there, appreciate you for that

People who claim proc sets don't require skill read this:

imagine someone wearing the vicious death which is a proc set. Imagine this person that knows what they are doing killing a huge zerg with vicious death proc because that zerg doesn't keep up heals and have weak heals. You can see that one person who has more skill killed a huge zerg. That would be not possible without a proc set like vicious death.

Sounds to me that they want you all to go do some PvE with the CP update coming around the corner
*sneaky*

6 months of two handfuls of sets is bit silly....Then summer hits and most will be out and about and less people will be online....cool!

VD-off is a big disaster for bombers and semi-disaster for ball groups.
Other stuff like Zaan + Vat is nothing but a brainless gameplay.

LoveForElderScrolls wrote: »

People who claim proc sets don't require skill read this:

imagine someone wearing the vicious death which is a proc set. Imagine this person that knows what they are doing killing a huge zerg with vicious death proc because that zerg doesn't keep up heals and have weak heals. You can see that one person who has more skill killed a huge zerg. That would be not possible without a proc set like vicious death.

Vicious Death is a weird one for me.

On the one hand, it takes a ton of skill to be a good bomber. The Vicious Death proc rewards that skill with extra damage. As you say, a player who knows what they are doing can wreak havoc with an unprepared group.

On the other hand, during the first Midyear Mayhem, I slapped Vicious Death on my healer build and got a number of my Whitestrake killing blows from VD proccing on the oils I was pouring down on the heads of attackers in a choke point.

Vicious Death is one of those sets that takes skill to use for maximum efficiency, sure...but it's also a set that awards free AOE damage whenever you kill someone, even if it's me getting the killing blow by firing off light attacks and Clench into a crowd of Midyear Mayhemers in between healing my teammates. (I think the siege weapons proccing set effects has since been patched out?)

I guess what I'm saying is that while skilled players used it, there's no skill requirement to use Vicious Death. I've used it for for free damage against massed players before and I'm about as far from a skilled bomber as you could ask. In fact, I was wearing VD precisely to cover for my healer build not getting many killing blows on my own and it served that purpose pretty well!

VaranisArano wrote: »

LoveForElderScrolls wrote: »

People who claim proc sets don't require skill read this:

imagine someone wearing the vicious death which is a proc set. Imagine this person that knows what they are doing killing a huge zerg with vicious death proc because that zerg doesn't keep up heals and have weak heals. You can see that one person who has more skill killed a huge zerg. That would be not possible without a proc set like vicious death.

Vicious Death is a weird one for me.

On the one hand, it takes a ton of skill to be a good bomber. The Vicious Death proc rewards that skill with extra damage. As you say, a player who knows what they are doing can wreak havoc with an unprepared group.

On the other hand, during the first Midyear Mayhem, I slapped Vicious Death on my healer build and got a number of my Whitestrake killing blows from VD proccing on the oils I was pouring down on the heads of attackers in a choke point.

Vicious Death is one of those sets that takes skill to use for maximum efficiency, sure...but it's also a set that awards free AOE damage whenever you kill someone, even if it's me getting the killing blow by firing off light attacks and Clench into a crowd of Midyear Mayhemers in between healing my teammates. (I think the siege weapons proccing set effects has since been patched out?)

I guess what I'm saying is that while skilled players used it, there's no skill requirement to use Vicious Death. I've used it for for free damage against massed players before and I'm about as far from a skilled bomber as you could ask. In fact, I was wearing VD precisely to cover for my healer build not getting many killing blows on my own and it served that purpose pretty well!

From my experience, VD is a hard set to proc if you're not a good player. If it procs on siege damage which it should not you have to blame the game code.

"Skillfulness" is a pointless argument, since some personal definitions of PVP "skill" include a lot of things that have nothing to do with fighting, and some emphatically do not. This is the same as people who argue about how clever "tech" is versus people who think fighting skill has to do with tactics and reactions during an actual fight, an argument that happens in every game with PVP, except the few with no possibilities for cheese.

It's interesting I guess how the community has changed under so many months of proc meta. People who build for no damage complaining that everybody else is unkillable and not even a little receptive to the idea they might need to alter their strats. People who complain about OP healing rather than coming up with the revolutionary idea of focusing down the healer. People who think figuring out a cheese build is a pinnacle of "skill." I wonder how representative this is of the current crop of PVPers. Holy crap.

robertthebard wrote: »

Faded wrote: »

"Skillfulness" is a pointless argument, since some personal definitions of PVP "skill" include a lot of things that have nothing to do with fighting, and some emphatically do not. This is the same as people who argue about how clever "tech" is versus people who think fighting skill has to do with tactics and reactions during an actual fight, an argument that happens in every game with PVP, except the few with no possibilities for cheese.

It's interesting I guess how the community has changed under so many months of proc meta. People who build for no damage complaining that everybody else is unkillable and not even a little receptive to the idea they might need to alter their strats. People who complain about OP healing rather than coming up with the revolutionary idea of focusing down the healer. People who think figuring out a cheese build is a pinnacle of "skill." I wonder how representative this is of the current crop of PVPers. Holy crap.

It's fairly representative, and if you want some confirmation, pick an MMO with PvP and a PvP forum, go scan the first page, and then pick another one, and do the same thing. Once done, come back here and read this one. If you find that you can remove the name of the game any time it comes up, and have essentially the same discussion, you'll answer your rhetorical question.

Well now I'm depressed.

LoveForElderScrolls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

LoveForElderScrolls wrote: »

People who claim proc sets don't require skill read this:

imagine someone wearing the vicious death which is a proc set. Imagine this person that knows what they are doing killing a huge zerg with vicious death proc because that zerg doesn't keep up heals and have weak heals. You can see that one person who has more skill killed a huge zerg. That would be not possible without a proc set like vicious death.

Vicious Death is a weird one for me.

On the one hand, it takes a ton of skill to be a good bomber. The Vicious Death proc rewards that skill with extra damage. As you say, a player who knows what they are doing can wreak havoc with an unprepared group.

On the other hand, during the first Midyear Mayhem, I slapped Vicious Death on my healer build and got a number of my Whitestrake killing blows from VD proccing on the oils I was pouring down on the heads of attackers in a choke point.

Vicious Death is one of those sets that takes skill to use for maximum efficiency, sure...but it's also a set that awards free AOE damage whenever you kill someone, even if it's me getting the killing blow by firing off light attacks and Clench into a crowd of Midyear Mayhemers in between healing my teammates. (I think the siege weapons proccing set effects has since been patched out?)

I guess what I'm saying is that while skilled players used it, there's no skill requirement to use Vicious Death. I've used it for for free damage against massed players before and I'm about as far from a skilled bomber as you could ask. In fact, I was wearing VD precisely to cover for my healer build not getting many killing blows on my own and it served that purpose pretty well!

From my experience, VD is a hard set to proc if you're not a good player. If it procs on siege damage which it should not you have to blame the game code.

Prior to the Sload's debacle of Summerset, IIRC, sets did proc off of siege weapons. Yeah, it got changed later, but that was an example of what I was doing. I also got VD procs with killing blows from light attacks and Clench, as I said.

And I feel like I'm repeating myself, but I as a not very good damage dealer was able to proc VD and get free damage and not a few kills during Midyear Mayhem. It wasn't exactly peak performance or anything, but there's no skill requirement of "Are you a good player or not?" to score a killing blow and proc VD. I did it on my healer.

So while you are correct that Vicious Death takes skill to use to maximum effectiveness against groups, I'd say I'm a fairly good example that Vicious Death doesn't take much skill to slap on and still get free damage and some kills from the proc.


(I get that most players don't admit to using proc sets to get cheap kills, but I will. I love playing my healer and I really wanted that Star-made Knight achievement. The easiest way for me to get my 50 killing blows was to slap on proc sets to do extra damage for me while I healed and threw out light attacks and Clench. I chose VD and it worked pretty well for that purpose.)

VaranisArano wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I said it in another similar thread and I will say it here.

PvP player complaints have just ruined heavy and light armor to the point that two of my guilds are questioning if they actually complete trials anymore.

So I am having a hard time feeling any compassion for complaints over cyrodiil.

Hey, this may be an awkward thought, but have you considered that if ZOS didn't want to nerf your armor in PVE too, they could have just worked it into Battle Spirit? After all, all the proc sets still work in PVE.

But they didn't, which suggests the Devs like the impact that the armor changes have on your PVE trials teams. Sorry!

After all, this is true of PVP and PVE both: "The above changes were done to help increase the effect that Armor plays on your build, by augmenting your Core Combat Mechanics such as Break Free, Roll Dodge, and Sprint in ways that are not already apparent in the paradigms."

Coming from the same Devs who wanted a 15-20% DPS nerf with CP 2.0, well, I'm not sure that the wellbeing of your trials guilds was really high up on the priority list. Again, I'm sorry.

Sometimes the Devs nerf everyone with a broad brush.

We have tanks that don’t know how they will survive magic soak elements in boss fights and we have healers and dps who don’t know how they will survive the physical soak mechanics.

Was their concern that the success rate of trials was too high? Then congrats to zos, I guess.