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Cold hard facts.
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SeaArcanist✭✭✭crimson twilight, 8s cooldown, 2s warning before it goes off.. like literaly every proc set has a cooldown0 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭can i also take the opportunity to disect Crimson twilight? 8220 damage every 8s, heals for 100% of the damage. so heals for the damage done to the enemy. not 8220. then i npvp its essentually halved again. ye got 1/3rd the tooltip as a heal. every 8s. and it can be avoided. i msorry people HOW is this op in 1v1 situations? it is pure insanity that makes the set OP. you stand 20 people by 1 player of course they will heal alot. ROLL OUT OF THE WAY!1
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xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think it's interesting we expect devs to balance a game who have rolled out that game with over 400 sets in it and elected 19 of them to be usable in pvp.
I mean, if you look at the meta builds for end game pve, that's probably another 20 sets. So the folks that led us to having only 10% of the sets in the game being useful are supposed to know how to balance it? And we are supposed to be excited for new sets added with DLCs and Chapters why? lol, you can't even use all but one of the sets that actually drop in PvP in Cyrodiil. So glad they added the collection system so we can collect all those useless sets lol. Or the mythic system where we can't even use them in pvp. Great additions to the game in the half of it that they will work in.
What a terrible solution it would be to actually just balance the procs and not have them over perform.
And OP is right, no matter procs or not, there will always be meta builds that dominate. And there will always be players better than others. I've actually had more successful fights without procs to carry opponents in cyro and am not a fan of the overuse of some procs and still don't think this is the go-to solution.Edited by xaraan on March 7, 2021 1:23AM-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC5 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭I think it's interesting we expect devs to balance a game who have rolled out that game with over 400 sets in it and elected 19 of them to be usable in pvp.
I mean, if you look at the meta builds for end game pve, that's probably another 20 sets. So the folks that led us to having only 10% of the sets in the game being useful are supposed to know how to balance it? And we are supposed to be excited for new sets added with DLCs and Chapters why? lol, you can't even use all but one of the sets that actually drop in PvP in Cyrodiil. So glad they added the collection system so we can collect all those useless sets lol. Or the mythic system where we can't even use them in pvp. Great additions to the game in the half of it that they will work in.
What a terrible solution it would be to actually just balance the procs and not have them over perform.
And OP is right, no matter procs or not, there will always be meta builds that dominate. And there will always be players better than others. I've actually had more successful fights without procs to carry opponents in cyro and am not a fan of the overuse of some procs and still don't think this is the go-to solution.
Exactly. thank you.1 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭[snip] a global cool down is the time before a skill can be activated again which is approximately 1 second. A proc set cooldown is different and does not even use a global cool down or resources. Either doing nothing or light/heavy attacking activates it independent of a global cool down. So proc players can use no resources and get damage and heals bypassing the global cool down.
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on March 7, 2021 2:55PM2 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭[snip] a global cool down is the time before a skill can be activated again which is approximately 1 second. A proc set cooldown is different and does not even use a global cool down or resources. Either doing nothing or light/heavy attacking activates it independent of a global cool down. So proc players can use no resources and get damage and heals bypassing the global cool down.
this makes zero sense to me. a cool down is a cool down. i know the diffrence between the two types of cooldowns. but yoru argument is jsut because that type of cooldown isnt a "global cooldown" even though the proc sets cooldown is longer than 1s. that its op? i dont see yoru argument here anymore. regardless of what type of cooldown it has, it still has a cooldown. and a way to avoid it.
[snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on March 7, 2021 2:55PM1 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭I completely agree with your assessment. Clearly, the wrong step was taken and needs to be addressed - there are 19 sets remaining that can still be used in Cyrodiil for crying out loud. This is an absolute outrage - there should be ZERO. Let us fight each other like the warriors of old, fist to fist, skin to skin. Set bonuses only create imbalance when one player can decide to choose a different set of bonuses than another. While we're at it, Armor and Weapons themselves are a crutch for poor players, truly experienced players have no need for their protection when they have the ability to rely upon themselves. I would pay good money for ZOS to implement a game mode strictly for Brawling: it could be just like large-scale PvP in Cyrodiil, except everyone runs around in a loin cloth and their bare fists - everyone would be on equal footing. Just imagine how much less lag there would be too. Please ZOS, we've been getting requests for a No-Proc Cyrodiil, I want to see a No-Anything Cyrodiil. Not even being sarcastic, we have so many different campaigns that I think a barefoot game mode would be a great way to truly demonstrate how far one's skills alone would carry them in a competitive format.Edited by Sangwyne on March 7, 2021 1:38AM0 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭I completely agree with your assessment. Clearly, the wrong step was taken and needs to be addressed - there are 19 sets remaining that can still be used in Cyrodiil for crying out loud. This is an absolute outrage - there should be ZERO. Let us fight each other like the warriors of old, fist to fist, skin to skin. Set bonuses only create imbalance when one player can decide to choose a different set of bonuses than another. While we're at it, Armor and Weapons themselves are a crutch for poor players, REAL PvP have no need for their protection when they have the skill to be able to rely upon themselves. I would pay good money for ZOS to implement a game mode strictly for Brawling: it could be just like large-scale PvP in Cyrodiil, except everyone runs around in a loin cloth and their bare fists - everyone would be on equal footing. Just imagine how much less lag there would be too. Please ZOS, we've been getting requests for a No-Proc Cyrodiil, I want to see a No-Anything Cyrodiil.
im actually all for unlocking a majority of the sets back except for the controversal ones. i defend crimson as a nexample. truly it's not BAD. but cyrodiil can do without it. however alot of sets should be reimplimented. 6 months w.o them is alot. like an insane decision. half a year with 19 sets out of the hundreds. how bad is that going to mess with new players heads? will they have to make a new npc that tells the new players what sets work and wont doesnt? it's a hasty decision with alot o backlash atm.1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »either way you need to slap a heal on the player to heal them. your set cant LITERALLY heal them by choice. you still acivate it on the target.
There's a big difference between me healing a player back from 50% heal vs me using any healing skill on them that just happens to proc Earthgore.
The first takes situational awareness, me actively choosing to use burst healing skills to heal that person, and also active resource management to make sure I heal that person and still have resources left to heal the group. Example of when this happens: when the Raid Lead get hit hard.
The second is triggered by a single Healing Springs or Mutagen while someone's at 50% health which are skills I'm almost always casting on the group while in combat anyway. I'm not choosing to save that player. My set does the saving.
So again, you seem to be suggesting that my Earthgore proc saving a player is no more or less skillful than me using my healing skills to save a player at 50% heath?
I think that you are framing this deceptively and setting up a false choice by appropriating the word "skill" to suit only your argumentative needs. I see it happening a lot lately.
Skill, as defined in my dictionary, is: "The ability to do something well, expertise." It's derived from the Old Norse 'skil' - meaning knowledge, discernment.
You are arguing in favor of purely mechanical skill - taking efficient actions every GCD and recognizing/reacting to patterns in combat. It's an important consideration, to be sure, as, after all, the core experience of playing your character in ESO is mediating through mechanical skill.
But left out of that narrow framing is the matter of knowledge, of the skill to put together an efficient build that plays to your own (or your group's) mechanical strengths. That skill is no less valid in PvP than mechanical skill yet it is quite clearly being subordinated to the interests of the "mechanical skill is the only skill" crowd. And that's rubbish.
Of course, where the entire idea of a return to "pure, skill-based combat" is exposed as just a clever, self-serving ruse is that the change does absolutely nothing to address existing disparities within class balance - exacerbating current class balance problems.
So many of the anti-proc clique just so happen to also play the most over-tuned Stamina classes that already have several full sets worth of increased power budget over the classes (usually Magicka...) at the lowest tier. Hearing their arguments comes across as very self-interested indeed, as they desire to see combat essentially frozen into such a position where they are at the top and others are at the bottom with little chance to even the odds given the current meager set pool.
In other words, I'm sure it is "pure skill" when the noble proc-less Stamina Warden defeats the cheesy Magicka Nightblade who had the temerity to don War Maiden. And I'm sure that stripping the Nightblade of War Maiden will result in a far more "honest" duel the next time.
TLDR; Theorycrafting is a valid skill on par with mechanical skill. Many currently making the anti-proc argument play on over-tuned classes that can afford to slum it in Shacklebreaker - other classes are not so lucky. Taking away the ability of impoverished classes to access power does not result in a more balanced or skillful game - all it does is freeze in place the current disparities between class kits.4 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »either way you need to slap a heal on the player to heal them. your set cant LITERALLY heal them by choice. you still acivate it on the target.
There's a big difference between me healing a player back from 50% heal vs me using any healing skill on them that just happens to proc Earthgore.
The first takes situational awareness, me actively choosing to use burst healing skills to heal that person, and also active resource management to make sure I heal that person and still have resources left to heal the group. Example of when this happens: when the Raid Lead get hit hard.
The second is triggered by a single Healing Springs or Mutagen while someone's at 50% health which are skills I'm almost always casting on the group while in combat anyway. I'm not choosing to save that player. My set does the saving.
So again, you seem to be suggesting that my Earthgore proc saving a player is no more or less skillful than me using my healing skills to save a player at 50% heath?
I think that you are framing this deceptively and setting up a false choice by appropriating the word "skill" to suit only your argumentative needs. I see it happening a lot lately.
Skill, as defined in my dictionary, is: "The ability to do something well, expertise." It's derived from the Old Norse 'skil' - meaning knowledge, discernment.
You are arguing in favor of purely mechanical skill - taking efficient actions every GCD and recognizing/reacting to patterns in combat. It's an important consideration, to be sure, as, after all, the core experience of playing your character in ESO is mediating through mechanical skill.
But left out of that narrow framing is the matter of knowledge, of the skill to put together an efficient build that plays to your own (or your group's) mechanical strengths. That skill is no less valid in PvP than mechanical skill yet it is quite clearly being subordinated to the interests of the "mechanical skill is the only skill" crowd. And that's rubbish.
Of course, where the entire idea of a return to "pure, skill-based combat" is exposed as just a clever, self-serving ruse is that the change does absolutely nothing to address existing disparities within class balance - exacerbating current class balance problems.
So many of the anti-proc clique just so happen to also play the most over-tuned Stamina classes that already have several full sets worth of increased power budget over the classes (usually Magicka...) at the lowest tier. Hearing their arguments comes across as very self-interested indeed, as they desire to see combat essentially frozen into such a position where they are at the top and others are at the bottom with little chance to even the odds given the current meager set pool.
In other words, I'm sure it is "pure skill" when the noble proc-less Stamina Warden defeats the cheesy Magicka Nightblade who had the temerity to don War Maiden. And I'm sure that stripping the Nightblade of War Maiden will result in a far more "honest" duel the next time.
TLDR; Theorycrafting is a valid skill on par with mechanical skill. Many currently making the anti-proc argument play on over-tuned classes that can afford to slum it in Shacklebreaker - other classes are not so lucky. Taking away the ability of impoverished classes to access power does not result in a more balanced or skillful game - all it does is freeze in place the current disparities between class kits.
i agree with several of your points. overtuning is an issue that doesi nfact need adressed too, more so than proc sets. To be honest procs in champ 2.0 seem pretty nice. malacath is needed, yet it shouldnt effect these procs. or thats how i feel. it is hard to attempt to do what Zos is trying to do when your foundation isnt set. as opposed from building ground up, they are starting at the top and working down. i digress though, my final thoughts remain. when 2.0 hits, procs REALLY arnt going to be an issue. give or take malacath.1 -
Athan1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cold hard fact is deep down many players like proc sets but are afraid to admit it.Athan Atticus Imperial Templar of Shezarr2 -
Grimhallow✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »I'm going to be hurtful here. 90% of pvpers can;t pvp. There, i said it. Sadly all our changes revolve around them. any pro player that knew how to use bal monster helm comboed with alchemist would wipe the floor with ANY of these proc set users.
Sadly, not true.
Kind of suggests to me that you don’t understand the problems with the proc/health meta.1 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »I'm going to be hurtful here. 90% of pvpers can;t pvp. There, i said it. Sadly all our changes revolve around them. any pro player that knew how to use bal monster helm comboed with alchemist would wipe the floor with ANY of these proc set users.
Sadly, not true.
Kind of suggests to me that you don’t understand the problems with the proc/health meta.
Very true. incomming maths~ Crimson in 1v1, heal is bad, damage is meh. i've explain it above. heals 2,500, maybe more. deal 5k, maybe more. but not THAT much more.
8300 - (armor mitigation) =x - other mitigations (buffs, champ mitigations, etc) =x The x is your damage. but then ti heals ya by the damage. In pvp though, heals are mitigated. so its 1/2 x at that point. at best you;re looking at 6k hit 3k heal every 8s. IF it hits. Thats being VERY generous.0 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭i understand people don't use commonsense in pvp, and avoid sets like crimson that offers a 2s gap you can move out of the way from. even if ya dont move though. 1v1 its laughable damage and a minor heal. in 1vx, it can be a great heal fighting novices who dont know how to get out of aoe's. which is why i stated "90% of the community truly doesnt get pvp". is it REALLY that hard to avoid an aoe wit ha 2 second heads up? and is crimson relaly that pwoerful? no. absolutly not. the math is right there.0
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SeaArcanist✭✭✭malacath is the real culprit here. boosting outgoing damage by 25%. if malacath wasnt effected by procs. there wouldnt be an issue with sets like zaan. but still. you can avoid zaan too.
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Ocelot9x✭✭✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »I'm going to be hurtful here. 90% of pvpers can;t pvp. There, i said it. Sadly all our changes revolve around them. any pro player that knew how to use bal monster helm comboed with alchemist would wipe the floor with ANY of these proc set users.
Sadly, not true.
Kind of suggests to me that you don’t understand the problems with the proc/health meta.
Very true. incomming maths~ Crimson in 1v1, heal is bad, damage is meh. i've explain it above. heals 2,500, maybe more. deal 5k, maybe more. but not THAT much more.
8300 - (armor mitigation) =x - other mitigations (buffs, champ mitigations, etc) =x The x is your damage. but then ti heals ya by the damage. In pvp though, heals are mitigated. so its 1/2 x at that point. at best you;re looking at 6k hit 3k heal every 8s. IF it hits. Thats being VERY generous.
That's not true. Crimson heals for the tooltip damage, not the damage done. Tooltip of 12k=6k heal per target, buffed with mending/vitality/heal boosts so on average 7k.
Also a 6k hit is an exaggeration, more like 3.5k average with 4k spikes (assuming no corrosive armor).
Please don't throw mantras like cold hard fact, i know the truth etc. If you don't know how things work.
Also, build diversity? People are now using 30-40 sets, with half of them being carry sets so i don't see the tragedy of having half of them to choose from.
Old timers remembers how pvp was much more enjoyable with everyone wearing Julianos/willpower hunding/agility and with this test we are right back at it.
Trying to pvp now means having at least 3 procs running on you (venom, vateshran, blackrose etc) how will the Xv1ers will cope with the new meta??
1vX is back in town lads1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »either way you need to slap a heal on the player to heal them. your set cant LITERALLY heal them by choice. you still acivate it on the target.
There's a big difference between me healing a player back from 50% heal vs me using any healing skill on them that just happens to proc Earthgore.
The first takes situational awareness, me actively choosing to use burst healing skills to heal that person, and also active resource management to make sure I heal that person and still have resources left to heal the group. Example of when this happens: when the Raid Lead get hit hard.
The second is triggered by a single Healing Springs or Mutagen while someone's at 50% health which are skills I'm almost always casting on the group while in combat anyway. I'm not choosing to save that player. My set does the saving.
So again, you seem to be suggesting that my Earthgore proc saving a player is no more or less skillful than me using my healing skills to save a player at 50% heath?
I think that you are framing this deceptively and setting up a false choice by appropriating the word "skill" to suit only your argumentative needs. I see it happening a lot lately.
Skill, as defined in my dictionary, is: "The ability to do something well, expertise." It's derived from the Old Norse 'skil' - meaning knowledge, discernment.
You are arguing in favor of purely mechanical skill - taking efficient actions every GCD and recognizing/reacting to patterns in combat. It's an important consideration, to be sure, as, after all, the core experience of playing your character in ESO is mediating through mechanical skill.
But left out of that narrow framing is the matter of knowledge, of the skill to put together an efficient build that plays to your own (or your group's) mechanical strengths. That skill is no less valid in PvP than mechanical skill yet it is quite clearly being subordinated to the interests of the "mechanical skill is the only skill" crowd. And that's rubbish.
Of course, where the entire idea of a return to "pure, skill-based combat" is exposed as just a clever, self-serving ruse is that the change does absolutely nothing to address existing disparities within class balance - exacerbating current class balance problems.
So many of the anti-proc clique just so happen to also play the most over-tuned Stamina classes that already have several full sets worth of increased power budget over the classes (usually Magicka...) at the lowest tier. Hearing their arguments comes across as very self-interested indeed, as they desire to see combat essentially frozen into such a position where they are at the top and others are at the bottom with little chance to even the odds given the current meager set pool.
In other words, I'm sure it is "pure skill" when the noble proc-less Stamina Warden defeats the cheesy Magicka Nightblade who had the temerity to don War Maiden. And I'm sure that stripping the Nightblade of War Maiden will result in a far more "honest" duel the next time.
TLDR; Theorycrafting is a valid skill on par with mechanical skill. Many currently making the anti-proc argument play on over-tuned classes that can afford to slum it in Shacklebreaker - other classes are not so lucky. Taking away the ability of impoverished classes to access power does not result in a more balanced or skillful game - all it does is freeze in place the current disparities between class kits.
A. Yes, I'm using a definition of skill that encompasses mechanical skill, player awareness, and players actively taking actions to get proportionate benefits.
That's because I was arguing against the statement: "The only way a game can truly be evaluated by skill is if players have the exact same abilities, resources. etc. like chess." If you wander into the middle of an argument and want to interject your own additional definition, it's worth noting why I'm using the definition I am.
I'm happy to address your definition now that its been brought up, but since that quoted statement argues that skill-based gameplay would require eliminating all set-based theorycrafting, I suspect we both disagree with it.
B. I hesitate to throw out "self-serving" at an argument that favors theorycrafting and proc sets, but here goes:
Who benefits the most from the ability to theorycraft with all the sets in the game, to wear the most variety of sets, and stack them all in the same area for synergistic effects?
PVP guilds. Large organized raids. As long as their players have the mechanical skill and awareness to stick together in the eponymous "ball", these groups reap a high level of benefits from stacked proc sets that no less organized number of players can match.
Please note that I'm saying this because I've been the one benefitting. My main is a PVP healer. My healer sets are all "proc sets" disabled by the changes. My Raid Leads are amazing theorycrafters who've led our guild through many meta changes and they have fantastic skills at theorycrafting!
So its not that theorycrafting and making an effective group composition isn't a "skill." It absolutely is! But if we're going to point fingers at Stamina players who are backing a no-proc meta that favors them, then I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that my PVP guild has powerfully benefitted from the ability to stack proc sets.
C. The impact of removing the ability of large organized groups to stack proc sets, especially the stacked support proc sets that buffer the "ball" against incoming damage, is such that it increases the need for individual mechanical skill, awareness, and effort on the part of the players in that large organized group. That's a big reason why no-proc proponents like it.
A lot of theorycrafting for group composition is about trying to get the most bang for the least amount of player mechanical skill/awareness/effort. That sounds bad, but it's basically just finding the meta. Everyone does it, but organized groups in PVP take it to a whole new level.
I mentioned Earthgore above - lifesaving heals + ground effect removal for the price of a heal that healers should be casting anyway. My beloved Meritorious Service hands out an extra buff every time I cast Purge, which I'm doing a lot in combat. My Worm's Raiment hands out a buff for every group member in range of me - it takes mechanical skill to stay in range, but as long as they are close enough, they get the buff.
Remove those support proc sets and...what? My group members still need the mechanical skill to stay close so as to not waste heals. I still have to heal low health members, but now I have to have greater mechanical skill, awareness, and spend more effort to save someone at 50% health. I still have to cast Purge, and make up for the lost buff some other way. Plus, there's the removal of all my group members' stacked sets - no more Ebon health or Sanctuary healing - we've got to compensate in other ways or work harder because we're doing without. Every bit of lost proc set damage is something we have to make up with our own attacks and tactics.
Removing the ability of groups to stack proc sets does have the effect of increasing the necessity for individual mechanical skill, awareness, and effort on the part of large raid members. However, it does rather truncate the Raid theorycrafter, since they have much less sets to work with.
D. I'm not convinced that ZOS is purely listening to players who like the no-proc meta so they can dunk on poor magicka classes who were dependent on various "proc" sets. Those folks exist, sure, but I'm not sure that's what's driving this.
I think ZOS has taken the logical next step to deal with something they noted back before all the testing started:
"However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability."
Dropping the group size to twelve and group-only heals didn't do anything to farming ball groups.
Taking aim at their unique ability to stack proc sets and get extra damage, heals, and buffs from the actions they already take is, perhaps, ZOS' next step towards getting a handle on ball group gameplay. As we've seen, this change hits Raid theorycrafters where it hurts.
If ZOS still has that "one foundational issue" in their sights on a gameplay rather than performance level now, then perhaps we'd do well to focus on making sure they realize they need to bring under-performing classes up to par. If we're going to go no-proc for the foreseeable future, I'm all for making sure that all classes are viable.2 -
Luckylancer✭✭✭✭✭I am ok with BiS sets. I am not ok with one button click to win unkillable troll tank meta. Now unkillable troll tank builds are harmless, as they should be.0 -
ZOS_ConnorGmodGreetings all,
After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.
You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »Folks, i need educate the community on a topic. this has become apparent.
Many of you have stated limited sets makes for skillful gameplay. This is false. and I will explain why.
Limited game play means limited sets. This means there is a clear choice as to whats "best" there are also less counters (if any are to be had)
whether the meta is shackle breaker or a certain proc set. there is still only one or 1 or 2 supreme sets, making it no different than unlocking all sets. arguably we have more variety and class options with non restricted sets.
regardless of choices, there is always a "supreme" choice. a B.I.S (Best in slot). the current set up is no different and the same facts and logic apply.
there is ALWAYS an overpowering meta and best choices. making skill not as an important factor regardless of if its 19 sets to pick from or 1,000.
The only way a game can truly be evaluated by skill is if players have the exact same abilities, resources. etc. like chess.
some of you will disagree because you do not want to accept this as truth, but that does not make it any less factual. you simply just do not accept the cold hard facts.
it should also be mention. alot of you are doing better in pvp not because of the set changes, but because pvers are doing pvp now because of these changes/double ap. so your average pvp scuffle now is much easier and appears like the system is working. but in reality you;re probably fighting a knave who's still green. and the quote on quote "skillful players" are still as over powering and tough as they normally are.
the fact as to why pvp is doing soo much better at the moment is alot of players aren't playing cyrodiil who normally do, and are replaced by these novices. making it appear pvp is "balanced" and it still is not balanced.
what this is doing though is limiting classes and choices. making pvp more bland.
EDIT!(made my final comment appeal to the sensitive)
✭✭
"truth is, as most pvpers can agree. a vast majority of people who participate in pvp, much like pve. are not experts by any means. There is a reason why 1 guy can take on 10+ people. most are quick to blame sets or builds. etc. Infact most of these 1vxers tend to die in 1v1's. there is such thing as a skillgap. Our community though, is dependent upon a populous vote. and alas we get a majority of our feedback from these players who are hasty to judge, and assume things can or will be OP. yet those who take the feedback know nothing of the commenters background or even if they have the skill that qualifies them to give such a feed back. Any average joe can contribute. and that is what ruins our pvp community"
do proc sets need nerfed? yes, absolutely. but clearly, obviously, they have a counter, or way to counter them. and no offence. if you have a group of 20 sourounding a 40k hp dude with crimson. thats asking for trouble. 1-2 people is enough to out dps the 40k hp w/o overly healing said target. (as an example)
(Final foot note)
an example of an OP set. Crimson twilight. 8.3k every 8s. heals for 100% of the damage done. KEY WORD damage done. meaning not an 8k heal. with mitigations arguably 1/2. so beign generous ill say 5k. so hits for 5k every 8s. but doesnt HEAL 5k every 8s. because healing is essentually halved again in pvp. so hits for 5k heals for 2.5k. every8s. now in MY opinion. thats NOT op. just my opinion though. 5k hit and 2.5k heal every 8s is bad. especialy when the set has a 2s window where you can avoid it too.
This set only becomes OP when 10+ people surround the guy, and dont avoid the aoe. even when they have 2s to roll. they dont avoid. these people are complaining the set is "unskillful". yet dont have the common sense to avoid it and not swarm a guy with it.
I haven't scrolled down to see if someone else corrected you yet.
Sets and skills that heal based on dmg done aren't affected by battlespirit twice, only their dmg is cut, not the healing.
This is true for crimson twilight.
The set also benefits from healing modifiers so it can heal for well over 100% of the damage done.
Cold. Hard. Facts.1 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »Folks, i need educate the community on a topic. this has become apparent.
Many of you have stated limited sets makes for skillful gameplay. This is false. and I will explain why.
Limited game play means limited sets. This means there is a clear choice as to whats "best" there are also less counters (if any are to be had)
whether the meta is shackle breaker or a certain proc set. there is still only one or 1 or 2 supreme sets, making it no different than unlocking all sets. arguably we have more variety and class options with non restricted sets.
regardless of choices, there is always a "supreme" choice. a B.I.S (Best in slot). the current set up is no different and the same facts and logic apply.
there is ALWAYS an overpowering meta and best choices. making skill not as an important factor regardless of if its 19 sets to pick from or 1,000.
The only way a game can truly be evaluated by skill is if players have the exact same abilities, resources. etc. like chess.
some of you will disagree because you do not want to accept this as truth, but that does not make it any less factual. you simply just do not accept the cold hard facts.
it should also be mention. alot of you are doing better in pvp not because of the set changes, but because pvers are doing pvp now because of these changes/double ap. so your average pvp scuffle now is much easier and appears like the system is working. but in reality you;re probably fighting a knave who's still green. and the quote on quote "skillful players" are still as over powering and tough as they normally are.
the fact as to why pvp is doing soo much better at the moment is alot of players aren't playing cyrodiil who normally do, and are replaced by these novices. making it appear pvp is "balanced" and it still is not balanced.
what this is doing though is limiting classes and choices. making pvp more bland.
EDIT!(made my final comment appeal to the sensitive)
✭✭
"truth is, as most pvpers can agree. a vast majority of people who participate in pvp, much like pve. are not experts by any means. There is a reason why 1 guy can take on 10+ people. most are quick to blame sets or builds. etc. Infact most of these 1vxers tend to die in 1v1's. there is such thing as a skillgap. Our community though, is dependent upon a populous vote. and alas we get a majority of our feedback from these players who are hasty to judge, and assume things can or will be OP. yet those who take the feedback know nothing of the commenters background or even if they have the skill that qualifies them to give such a feed back. Any average joe can contribute. and that is what ruins our pvp community"
do proc sets need nerfed? yes, absolutely. but clearly, obviously, they have a counter, or way to counter them. and no offence. if you have a group of 20 sourounding a 40k hp dude with crimson. thats asking for trouble. 1-2 people is enough to out dps the 40k hp w/o overly healing said target. (as an example)
(Final foot note)
an example of an OP set. Crimson twilight. 8.3k every 8s. heals for 100% of the damage done. KEY WORD damage done. meaning not an 8k heal. with mitigations arguably 1/2. so beign generous ill say 5k. so hits for 5k every 8s. but doesnt HEAL 5k every 8s. because healing is essentually halved again in pvp. so hits for 5k heals for 2.5k. every8s. now in MY opinion. thats NOT op. just my opinion though. 5k hit and 2.5k heal every 8s is bad. especialy when the set has a 2s window where you can avoid it too.
This set only becomes OP when 10+ people surround the guy, and dont avoid the aoe. even when they have 2s to roll. they dont avoid. these people are complaining the set is "unskillful". yet dont have the common sense to avoid it and not swarm a guy with it.
I haven't scrolled down to see if someone else corrected you yet.
Sets and skills that heal based on dmg done aren't affected by battlespirit twice, only their dmg is cut, not the healing.
This is true for crimson twilight.
The set also benefits from healing modifiers so it can heal for well over 100% of the damage done.
Cold. Hard. Facts.
good to know, . however, this places the healing from minor to decent. a 5-6k heal every 8s. putting it essentally on par with troll king (in 1v1 situaitions). but can be avoided still. I appreciate the time you took to correct me with actual facts as opposed to an arbutary opinion. and i shall correct my mistake0 -
TheImperfect✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm not a regular pvper but I like to try it out occasionally. I am concerned that changes may spill through to pve, which I'm very happy with. I know there are plenty dedicated pvp sets e.g. light of cyrodiil, although I suspect a lot aren't used. I would just say that I think there should be more drive to making pvp sets desirable to use so that pvp players use them and they can can be balanced for that without affecting pve. I really enjoy proc sets.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »D. I'm not convinced that ZOS is purely listening to players who like the no-proc meta so they can dunk on poor magicka classes who were dependent on various "proc" sets. Those folks exist, sure, but I'm not sure that's what's driving this.
I think ZOS has taken the logical next step to deal with something they noted back before all the testing started:
"However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability."
Dropping the group size to twelve and group-only heals didn't do anything to farming ball groups.
Taking aim at their unique ability to stack proc sets and get extra damage, heals, and buffs from the actions they already take is, perhaps, ZOS' next step towards getting a handle on ball group gameplay. As we've seen, this change hits Raid theorycrafters where it hurts.
If ZOS still has that "one foundational issue" in their sights on a gameplay rather than performance level now, then perhaps we'd do well to focus on making sure they realize they need to bring under-performing classes up to par. If we're going to go no-proc for the foreseeable future, I'm all for making sure that all classes are viable.
Whelp, pending further comments from Gina, it turns out I'm almost certainly wrong on this point.
ZOS has stated they do intend to eventually bring back the option for a no-proc and a proc-enabled campaign once they make that possible.
With that in mind, it seems more likely that ZOS is not intentionally targeting ball groups, since groups can just go to the proc campaign.Edited by VaranisArano on March 7, 2021 5:27PM0 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭I think separate campaigns would be great. it would truly give accurate numbers to see what the community wants. the na month or two later stick with the majority vote. or leave 1 of the servers avalible to the losing side.0
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AuraNebula✭✭✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »i understand people don't use commonsense in pvp, and avoid sets like crimson that offers a 2s gap you can move out of the way from. even if ya dont move though. 1v1 its laughable damage and a minor heal. in 1vx, it can be a great heal fighting novices who dont know how to get out of aoe's. which is why i stated "90% of the community truly doesnt get pvp". is it REALLY that hard to avoid an aoe wit ha 2 second heads up? and is crimson relaly that pwoerful? no. absolutly not. the math is right there.
Bashing 90% of the community wow.2 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭Princessrhaenyra wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »i understand people don't use commonsense in pvp, and avoid sets like crimson that offers a 2s gap you can move out of the way from. even if ya dont move though. 1v1 its laughable damage and a minor heal. in 1vx, it can be a great heal fighting novices who dont know how to get out of aoe's. which is why i stated "90% of the community truly doesnt get pvp". is it REALLY that hard to avoid an aoe wit ha 2 second heads up? and is crimson relaly that pwoerful? no. absolutly not. the math is right there.
Bashing 90% of the community wow.
it's not bash, just as im sure 90% of the community also arnt experts on trials, and 90% of those who pvp, give or take, arnt experts in pve.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »Princessrhaenyra wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »i understand people don't use commonsense in pvp, and avoid sets like crimson that offers a 2s gap you can move out of the way from. even if ya dont move though. 1v1 its laughable damage and a minor heal. in 1vx, it can be a great heal fighting novices who dont know how to get out of aoe's. which is why i stated "90% of the community truly doesnt get pvp". is it REALLY that hard to avoid an aoe wit ha 2 second heads up? and is crimson relaly that pwoerful? no. absolutly not. the math is right there.
Bashing 90% of the community wow.
it's not bash, just as im sure 90% of the community also arnt experts on trials, and 90% of those who pvp, give or take, arnt experts in pve.
Trial expertise is way less than 10%, probably the same for PvP. Realistically, both groups probably account for less than 1:100 players.
With that in mind, it is worth remembering two things about Crimson. First, PbAoE CCs are a thing, and available to a variety of builds. Second, the Crimson AoE travels with the user. Meaning that if it's used offensively, that 2s warning is basically meaningless.0 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »Princessrhaenyra wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »i understand people don't use commonsense in pvp, and avoid sets like crimson that offers a 2s gap you can move out of the way from. even if ya dont move though. 1v1 its laughable damage and a minor heal. in 1vx, it can be a great heal fighting novices who dont know how to get out of aoe's. which is why i stated "90% of the community truly doesnt get pvp". is it REALLY that hard to avoid an aoe wit ha 2 second heads up? and is crimson relaly that pwoerful? no. absolutly not. the math is right there.
Bashing 90% of the community wow.
it's not bash, just as im sure 90% of the community also arnt experts on trials, and 90% of those who pvp, give or take, arnt experts in pve.
Trial expertise is way less than 10%, probably the same for PvP. Realistically, both groups probably account for less than 1:100 players.
With that in mind, it is worth remembering two things about Crimson. First, PbAoE CCs are a thing, and available to a variety of builds. Second, the Crimson AoE travels with the user. Meaning that if it's used offensively, that 2s warning is basically meaningless.
time your ability to stun or snare the target before said AOE is triggered., or some classes can even gapclose a distance. and i mean it's a heavy meta proc set. so you can outrun them.0
This discussion has been closed.