Cold hard facts.

SeaArcanist

Folks, i need educate the community on a topic. this has become apparent.

Many of you have stated limited sets makes for skillful gameplay. This is false. and I will explain why.

Limited game play means limited sets. This means there is a clear choice as to whats "best" there are also less counters (if any are to be had)

whether the meta is shackle breaker or a certain proc set. there is still only one or 1 or 2 supreme sets, making it no different than unlocking all sets. arguably we have more variety and class options with non restricted sets.

regardless of choices, there is always a "supreme" choice. a B.I.S (Best in slot). the current set up is no different and the same facts and logic apply.

there is ALWAYS an overpowering meta and best choices. making skill not as an important factor regardless of if its 19 sets to pick from or 1,000.

The only way a game can truly be evaluated by skill is if players have the exact same abilities, resources. etc. like chess.


some of you will disagree because you do not want to accept this as truth, but that does not make it any less factual. you simply just do not accept the cold hard facts.



it should also be mention. alot of you are doing better in pvp not because of the set changes, but because pvers are doing pvp now because of these changes/double ap. so your average pvp scuffle now is much easier and appears like the system is working. but in reality you;re probably fighting a knave who's still green. and the quote on quote "skillful players" are still as over powering and tough as they normally are.

the fact as to why pvp is doing soo much better at the moment is alot of players aren't playing cyrodiil who normally do, and are replaced by these novices. making it appear pvp is "balanced" and it still is not balanced.

what this is doing though is limiting classes and choices. making pvp more bland.

EDIT!(made my final comment appeal to the sensitive)




✭✭
"truth is, as most pvpers can agree. a vast majority of people who participate in pvp, much like pve. are not experts by any means. There is a reason why 1 guy can take on 10+ people. most are quick to blame sets or builds. etc. Infact most of these 1vxers tend to die in 1v1's. there is such thing as a skillgap. Our community though, is dependent upon a populous vote. and alas we get a majority of our feedback from these players who are hasty to judge, and assume things can or will be OP. yet those who take the feedback know nothing of the commenters background or even if they have the skill that qualifies them to give such a feed back. Any average joe can contribute. and that is what ruins our pvp community"

do proc sets need nerfed? yes, absolutely. but clearly, obviously, they have a counter, or way to counter them. and no offence. if you have a group of 20 sourounding a 40k hp dude with crimson. thats asking for trouble. 1-2 people is enough to out dps the 40k hp w/o overly healing said target. (as an example)

(Final foot note)

an example of an OP set. Crimson twilight. 8.3k every 8s. heals for 100% of the damage done. KEY WORD damage done. meaning not an 8k heal. with mitigations arguably 1/2. so being generous ill say 5k. so hits for 5k every 8s. meaning it's only a 5k heal every 8s.(making it slightly less useful than TK in 1v1, heal wise).

This set only becomes OP when 10+ people surround a person and dont avoid the aoe. even when they have 2s to roll. they dont avoid. these people are complaining the set is "unskillful". yet dont have the "skill" themselves to avoid the big red circle that gives you 2s to exit it's radius and owuld rather swarm the circle thus healing the individual for ALOT. it is their own fault, not the actual set, that makes CT heal soo much.

Ocelot9x

I'm so excited for the non proc to come on console. I'm every game there is a bis and that's not why people complain. I welcome a shackle breaker op meta as it would be 100x times more bearable than the current tank set+ mala+ 3 proc

SeaArcanist

You'll find out soon enough. malacath is the culprit behind lots of OP factors in the game. A removal of malacath would fix procs , that much is certian. would also balance WW and overly tanky character dealing more damage as well.

yet, this issues goes unadressed.

instead of using valuble time and reosurces to do such a simple fix. they would rather rework the entire system, or throw away sets completely.

granted there are over powering proc sets like crimson. however. i feel it would be a much simple task to rebalance malacath and crimson. as opposed to reworking the entire games proc system/sets. that would be more logical.

thus making all this VERY unnecessary.

starkerealm

SeaArcanist wrote: »

it should also be mention. alot of you are doing better in pvp not because of the set changes, but because pvers are doing pvp now because of these changes/double ap. so your average pvp scuffle now is much easier and appears like the system is working. but in reality you;re probably fighting a knave who's still green. and the quote on quote "skillful players" are still as over powering and tough as they normally are.

I love this. When people are like, "no, it made things worse," they claim there are no new PvPers, and Gina stating they've seen an uptick is deceptive. But, when it comes time to convince people that these changes are bad, now the argument is that there are more PvEers in Cyrodiil. (And, yes, I understand that you're not making both of these arguments personally.)

SeaArcanist

starkerealm wrote: »

SeaArcanist wrote: »

it should also be mention. alot of you are doing better in pvp not because of the set changes, but because pvers are doing pvp now because of these changes/double ap. so your average pvp scuffle now is much easier and appears like the system is working. but in reality you;re probably fighting a knave who's still green. and the quote on quote "skillful players" are still as over powering and tough as they normally are.

I love this. When people are like, "no, it made things worse," they claim there are no new PvPers, and Gina stating they've seen an uptick is deceptive. But, when it comes time to convince people that these changes are bad, now the argument is that there are more PvEers in Cyrodiil. (And, yes, I understand that you're not making both of these arguments personally.)

An increase in player population, is proof enough that there are people who don't normally pvp in cyrodiil. if it were just the regulars, there would be no increase at all. ergo, whay i've stated holds up as factual. This is why regulars are seeing a "major diffrence" in pvp too. because they have more novices to kill and push around.

starkerealm

SeaArcanist wrote: »

You'll find out soon enough. malacath is the culprit behind lots of OP factors in the game.

In the rare moment when I'll lob out a change suggestion without fully thinking it through, Malacath should be a massive Weapon/Spell damage buff instead of +x% damage increase.

SeaArcanist

it's funny, when people arnt winning the game isn't "balanced" when they start winning the game is "balanced". this is a situation where the majority populous who cant pvp, finally are getting kills. (because they;re killing people who dont normally pvp..) and think "wow! pvp is balanced now!"

SeaArcanist

smoke and mirrors

starkerealm

SeaArcanist wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

SeaArcanist wrote: »

it should also be mention. alot of you are doing better in pvp not because of the set changes, but because pvers are doing pvp now because of these changes/double ap. so your average pvp scuffle now is much easier and appears like the system is working. but in reality you;re probably fighting a knave who's still green. and the quote on quote "skillful players" are still as over powering and tough as they normally are.

I love this. When people are like, "no, it made things worse," they claim there are no new PvPers, and Gina stating they've seen an uptick is deceptive. But, when it comes time to convince people that these changes are bad, now the argument is that there are more PvEers in Cyrodiil. (And, yes, I understand that you're not making both of these arguments personally.)

An increase in player population, is proof enough that there are people who don't normally pvp in cyrodiil. if it were just the regulars, there would be no increase at all. ergo, whay i've stated holds up as factual. This is why regulars are seeing a "major diffrence" in pvp too. because they have more novices to kill and push around.

Yeah, that's the thing, I've had people arguing with me that there is no server population increase, and that it's all in my head. It's not a gripe at you.

NagualV

SeaArcanist wrote: »

it should also be mention. alot of you are doing better in pvp not because of the set changes, but because pvers are doing pvp now because of these changes/double ap. so your average pvp scuffle now is much easier and appears like the system is working. but in reality you;re probably fighting a knave who's still green.

I agree with you about the meta, but I wanted to ask if it could be argued that instead of the pve'rs being the reason some are having success, it's because many of the popular sets currently disabled were "carrying" people who did not know how to use their skills as effectively as some who used "non popular" sets?

starkerealm

NagualV wrote: »

SeaArcanist wrote: »

it should also be mention. alot of you are doing better in pvp not because of the set changes, but because pvers are doing pvp now because of these changes/double ap. so your average pvp scuffle now is much easier and appears like the system is working. but in reality you;re probably fighting a knave who's still green.

I agree with you about the meta, but I wanted to ask if it could be argued that instead of the pve'rs being the reason some are having success, it's because many of the popular sets currently disabled were "carrying" people who did not know how to use their skills as effectively as some who used "non popular" sets?

I suspect this is a factor as well. Seeing as sets could both shorten encounters, and could also boost durability considerably. So, some of this, I suspect, are players who were running things like Crimson Wolves, and now don't have access to that massive AoE and self heal.

SeaArcanist

[/quote]

I agree with you about the meta, but I wanted to ask if it could be argued that instead of the pve'rs being the reason some are having success, it's because many of the popular sets currently disabled were "carrying" people who did not know how to use their skills as effectively as some who used "non popular" sets?[/quote]


An increase in player population is proof that it's mostly a case of pvers/novices being a majority reason why people are getting more kills and/or enjoying cyrodiil because of it.

You make a valid point too, however abuse is abuse and being carried by a set works regardless of set choice. best is best. if that makes sense.

to me sets like crimson were an issue, but 90% of people who used it couldn;t get kills. yet we couldnt kill them. That was the definition of balance to me. "they cant kill me, but i cant kill them"

still, all these sets wouldnt be overly powerful if not for malacath. and that's truly what needs changed.

Mindcr0w

SeaArcanist wrote: »

A removal of malacath would fix procs , that much is certian.

Whoa there buddy. Malacath certainly exacerbated the issue, but people have been complaining about proc sets in pvp since long before Malacath was a thing.

AuraNebula

So magbaldes and stamblades are both running the same 1 to 2 sets?

Stamnia dragonknights are running the same gear as a templar healer?

I mean there are only 1-2 sets that every single player is running right??

So people are going to pick the two best sets from this list of 19 and it is going to be exactly what you are complaining about, everyone running the same 2 sets. No chance to make your build unique you have to have the same boring cookie cutter build as everyone else. If you play as a gank your build is dead. If you are a healer all your builds are dead. If you are a bomber your builds are dead. If you were optimizing for small group play all your builds are dead and now everyone has to be an xers, because that is what your idea of fun is right?

Urzigurumash

Ocelot9x wrote: »

I'm so excited for the non proc to come on console. I'm every game there is a bis and that's not why people complain. I welcome a shackle breaker op meta as it would be 100x times more bearable than the current tank set+ mala+ 3 proc

Right, I think most people would say a Shackle meta is the ideal, but it's not ideal if it's the only option. That describes how things were around Elsweyr, the best patch we've ever had balance-wise in recent years. You could be effective with procs, but the strongest ones took much more effort and were much less reliable than stats sets. There was a Shackle meta in BGs then, but you could do anything you wanted and maybe win.

It's not only the introduction of Malacath, it's the removal of all the percentile proc chances that made everything go haywire, but if that improved performance, of course that was a great change. It also let many of these sets be single-barred effectively, which, while overpowering them, resulted in a tremendous amount of new opportunities for a wide-range of playstyles. Right now the meta in BGs is so convoluted and buried in numerous set combinations that besides the Alessian+Crimson WW, it's hard to identify a single meta among several dozen options.

What's got to be done for balance and performance has got to be done, but right off the start, I just think there should be a way that players can still use their proc gear, just not with the proc effects, other than running it for 2-4 pieces, so that they can at least go to Cyrodiil with a reasonable degree of efficiency with the gear they've sunk so much time into. This also lets players go between Cyro, IC, and BGs with no adjustment, which for more casual PvPers is important, and I want everyone participating as much as possible personally.

i think it will be fun to try this, but I won't be surprised if the novelty wears off quickly.

SeaArcanist

Mindcr0w wrote: »

SeaArcanist wrote: »

A removal of malacath would fix procs , that much is certian.

Whoa there buddy. Malacath certainly exacerbated the issue, but people have been complaining about proc sets in pvp since long before Malacath was a thing.

the issue was never bad as it was now though, and with these newer updates to champ 2.0 that also effectivly balances procs more by removing percentiles and replacing it with flat WD/SD that does not buff the proc sets. an argument can be made with the removal of malacath it can improve the experience drasticly.

starkerealm

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

So magbaldes and stamblades are both running the same 1 to 2 sets?

Stamnia dragonknights are running the same gear as a templar healer?

I mean there are only 1-2 sets that every single player is running right??

So people are going to pick the two best sets from this list of 19 and it is going to be exactly what you are complaining about, everyone running the same 2 sets. No chance to make your build unique you have to have the same boring cookie cutter build as everyone else. If you play as a gank your build is dead. If you are a healer all your builds are dead. If you are a bomber your builds are dead. If you were optimizing for small group play all your builds are dead and now everyone has to be an xers, because that is what your idea of fun is right?

Not quite.

In the proc-set environment, your set choices determine how you play (to some extent.) So, again, to flog the dead horse of Crimson, when you're dealing with a player running that set, it's the set that matters, not their ability loadout.

In a non-proc set environment, their set choices don't determine how playing against them will feel. Instead, it's their active abilities, and even within the context of a "meta" situation, that will feel more engaging (at least on a psychological level), because you know the other player is having to actually use their abilities and kill you, rather than just sit back and let their sets do the work.

So, even though there's less build variety in the sets people are choosing, it doesn't feel as monotonous.

SeaArcanist

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

So magbaldes and stamblades are both running the same 1 to 2 sets?

Stamnia dragonknights are running the same gear as a templar healer?

I mean there are only 1-2 sets that every single player is running right??

So people are going to pick the two best sets from this list of 19 and it is going to be exactly what you are complaining about, everyone running the same 2 sets. No chance to make your build unique you have to have the same boring cookie cutter build as everyone else. If you play as a gank your build is dead. If you are a healer all your builds are dead. If you are a bomber your builds are dead. If you were optimizing for small group play all your builds are dead and now everyone has to be an xers, because that is what your idea of fun is right?

Sarcasm is fickle, for you cannot express sarcasm in text format. it is more body language and tone. However, if your intent was sarcasm.. please do rethink your approach and come back here with facts to back up your claims. or math, etc. Insults only imply you have no evidence left to support your case, so your last ditched effort is to bash the opposing side.

Urzigurumash

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

No chance to make your build unique you have to have the same boring cookie cutter build as everyone else. If you play as a gank your build is dead. If you are a healer all your builds are dead. If you are a bomber your builds are dead. If you were optimizing for small group play all your builds are dead

Well, of course that's true regrading the sets people were wearing, but it remains untested if that's true regarding the skill bar setups and tactics they were using, especially in light of the new Champion system. I can only say that as StamDK we never even had Venomous Claw and Noxious Breath until we already had OP heavy armor and tons of proc sets at Dark Brotherhood.

SeaArcanist

starkerealm wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

So magbaldes and stamblades are both running the same 1 to 2 sets?

Stamnia dragonknights are running the same gear as a templar healer?

I mean there are only 1-2 sets that every single player is running right??

So people are going to pick the two best sets from this list of 19 and it is going to be exactly what you are complaining about, everyone running the same 2 sets. No chance to make your build unique you have to have the same boring cookie cutter build as everyone else. If you play as a gank your build is dead. If you are a healer all your builds are dead. If you are a bomber your builds are dead. If you were optimizing for small group play all your builds are dead and now everyone has to be an xers, because that is what your idea of fun is right?

Not quite.

In the proc-set environment, your set choices determine how you play (to some extent.) So, again, to flog the dead horse of Crimson, when you're dealing with a player running that set, it's the set that matters, not their ability loadout.

In a non-proc set environment, their set choices don't determine how playing against them will feel. Instead, it's their active abilities, and even within the context of a "meta" situation, that will feel more engaging (at least on a psychological level), because you know the other player is having to actually use their abilities and kill you, rather than just sit back and let their sets do the work.

So, even though there's less build variety in the sets people are choosing, it doesn't feel as monotonous.

Crimson can be avoided. many players choose not to roll out of the AOE. the approach of how you get them in your aoe, matters. arguably the same can be said for shackle or any set though. much liek crimson that does the work for ya. shackle jsut adds on raw stats.. oh how skillful the player must be to simply stat stack.

Urzigurumash

Playstyles evolved in time. When V Claw came out probably many of us thought, we are supposed to be warriors swinging a giant axe, what are we doing with this green claw thing? But now all of us are fully on board for the Poison Snake thing, I would say. So it will be interesting to test all these playstyles that never even existed in an environment without Vicious Death, Fury, etc.

Of course I have some apprehension these playstyles won't be viable, as you say, against the playstyles that were favored by PC Transfers back in the day.

colossalvoids

SeaArcanist wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

SeaArcanist wrote: »

it should also be mention. alot of you are doing better in pvp not because of the set changes, but because pvers are doing pvp now because of these changes/double ap. so your average pvp scuffle now is much easier and appears like the system is working. but in reality you;re probably fighting a knave who's still green. and the quote on quote "skillful players" are still as over powering and tough as they normally are.

I love this. When people are like, "no, it made things worse," they claim there are no new PvPers, and Gina stating they've seen an uptick is deceptive. But, when it comes time to convince people that these changes are bad, now the argument is that there are more PvEers in Cyrodiil. (And, yes, I understand that you're not making both of these arguments personally.)

An increase in player population, is proof enough that there are people who don't normally pvp in cyrodiil. if it were just the regulars, there would be no increase at all. ergo, whay i've stated holds up as factual. This is why regulars are seeing a "major diffrence" in pvp too. because they have more novices to kill and push around.

Well there are always new people coming and going and it wasn't any different now, idk about other servers but pceu no-cp was a load of older players returning for that only reason, or ones who gave up recently with all this crimson mist form etc stuff that was prevalent.

AuraNebula

SeaArcanist wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

So magbaldes and stamblades are both running the same 1 to 2 sets?

Stamnia dragonknights are running the same gear as a templar healer?

I mean there are only 1-2 sets that every single player is running right??

So people are going to pick the two best sets from this list of 19 and it is going to be exactly what you are complaining about, everyone running the same 2 sets. No chance to make your build unique you have to have the same boring cookie cutter build as everyone else. If you play as a gank your build is dead. If you are a healer all your builds are dead. If you are a bomber your builds are dead. If you were optimizing for small group play all your builds are dead and now everyone has to be an xers, because that is what your idea of fun is right?

Sarcasm is fickle, for you cannot express sarcasm in text format. it is more body language and tone. However, if your intent was sarcasm.. please do rethink your approach and come back here with facts to back up your claims. or math, etc. Insults only imply you have no evidence left to support your case, so your last ditched effort is to bash the opposing side.

There is not a single insult. You said people are only wearing 1 to 2 sets. Which sets are those? You did not specify. My point being not everyone is wearing the same sets and you cannot come up with a response so you say I am bullying. Where is your math?

What are these 1 to 2 sets that everyone is running on every single class?

If you are going to make a claim then you need to back it up.

I am just disagreeing with your post. I do not have to abide by what you think is correct and silence myself because it does not fit your way of thinking.

SeaArcanist

I'm going to be hurtful here. 90% of pvpers can;t pvp. There, i said it. Sadly all our changes revolve around them. any pro player that knew how to use bal monster helm comboed with alchemist would wipe the floor with ANY of these proc set users.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Did you know that cryovolcanoes exist? Volcanoes that spews ice instead of magma. They can't be found on Earth but they exist. That's a cold, hard fact.

Urzigurumash

starkerealm wrote: »

Not quite.

In the proc-set environment, your set choices determine how you play (to some extent.) So, again, to flog the dead horse of Crimson, when you're dealing with a player running that set, it's the set that matters, not their ability loadout.

In a non-proc set environment, their set choices don't determine how playing against them will feel. Instead, it's their active abilities, and even within the context of a "meta" situation, that will feel more engaging (at least on a psychological level), because you know the other player is having to actually use their abilities and kill you, rather than just sit back and let their sets do the work.

So, even though there's less build variety in the sets people are choosing, it doesn't feel as monotonous.

Right but also we can't exaggerate how much procs make user input irrelevant. Crimson is extremely OP for taking flags but terrible for 1v1. It's not all black and white.

I would've encouraged any new player to use the skills they want and the proc sets which best compliment those skills rather than build around the proc sets specifically. If that were the case they might be able to adapt to this new environment with little change to their skillbars and tactics.

It will be monotonous if we're getting C Frag'd from outer space in every engagement. Again this is more a memory of playing against PC Transfers, I'm on console so I have no idea what this is like now, and nobody really knows how it will be with this new Champion system being live.

Urzigurumash

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Did you know that cryovolcanoes exist? Volcanoes that spews ice instead of magma. They can't be found on Earth but they exist. That's a cold, hard fact.

Yeah some of the things being learned from our imagery of Pluto are really cool

SeaArcanist

I've said my peace folks, so i will leave ye to your comments. Have a nice day everyone

Massacre_Wurm

Oh look , "pro" player in a game without any esport support.

Kwoung

Something to consider...

I suspect that ZOS considers "balance"... how many players will partake in that activity and have fun with it. How balanced gear sets are vs each other, how some players are better at it than others, most likely doesn't carry a lot of weight with them. Unless of course, it negatively affects the number of players having fun with and partaking of that activity.

If a whole new group of PVEers are having a blast in Cyrodiil suddenly, they are achieving the type of balance they want. Remember, the end goal is to keep most players engaged, having fun, buying DLC's and crowns. if tens of thousands of players just found a new way to stay engaged in ESO and they lost a few old timers who were previously those gating newer players from that activity, well they probably nailed it in their mind.

Anyhow, not arguing one side or the other, just pointing out how ZOS is most likely thinking on the matter.

Parasaurolophus

You forget that the problem is not only that only a few sets are relevant. The problem is that in recent patches, due to proc sets, the gameplay has changed for the worse. Precisely because the gameplay without proc sets has become better has become a decisive factor.