Augusten15 wrote: »

Dear Zeni,

I've noticed lately that representation of mag and stam sorcs in whatever MMR bracket I live in(0 magblade/magcro representation, lots stamDKs, lots stamblades, TONS of mag/stam sorcs) is pushing 50% in many BGs. I don't have numbers on Cyro but feel free to back me up if they are performing well without procs.

Let's review..

1: Gap closer, gap maker, AoE stun, damage, temp immunity, spam
2: Warden-like AoE pressure
3: Shield spam
4: Heal spam
5: Sustain spam
6: Stealth breaking delay damage and self AoE
7: Mag Damage spam that outperforms destro staff skills (Rare)
8: Stam Damage spam that compliments melee skills
9: Pets that function properly (Unlike necro healing pet)
10: An execute that fires for you incase someone CCs the 1-2-3 combo.

Some of these must be a high cost ultimate, right? Nope.

It's the perfect class with the perfect kit. While the other 5 are constantly seeking and inventing new ways to build that can fill these gaps, sorc has earned the reputation of "easy" with an answer for everything. Yes, those that have their feelings hurt can tell you how uber high the skill ceiling is too. Don't even get me started on the 1 bar trial bosses running DW/Briar/Pale.

So I present a solution.. Let them all play together! Que sorcs only in pvp content and it should be the pinnacle of skilled play given they lack nothing and therefore have no excuses. Since the idea of nerfing a class with such a kit is rage provoking and buffing the D tier classes clearly isn't happening this should make everyone happy, right? Probably not. But sometimes creativity spawns innovation.

Thanks for reminding me I need to make a Magicka Sorceror one of these days.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Because the genre is built around the erroneous assumption that a "tank" is just supposed to be a damage sponge that poses no threat offensively (yet highly intelligent "big bad evil antagonists somehow have a target fixation against them), mechanics that break that premise are going to be a problem with the game's balance foundation.

Aren't we undoing 6 years of gameplay by imposing this ideology on PvP? What came first, the designated roles in the dungeon group finder or Ravager, Truth, Affliction, and Elfbane? This isn't rhetorical, I have no clue, all of these things existed on Day 1 of Xbox as far as I recall.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Augusten15 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Augusten15 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

McGordon wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I agree👍 Duel some sorcs and figure it out. You shouldn't assume something is overpowered because you personally can't beat it. By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂

I play multiple classes, one of which being a MagSorc.

Then you should be aware that they stand out in this test as they stack stats better than any other class, but outside of this test they are not top tier. They are completely beatable btw, you just have to lock them down and Los at range because you won't beat them there. Your op reads as if you got killed on your nightblade by a sorc and instead of being analytical about your loss you decided to complain about it instead and make a nerf thread.

I'm still at a loss about this nightblade thing. I main 2 necros as stam/mag.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Augusten15 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

McGordon wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I agree👍 Duel some sorcs and figure it out. You shouldn't assume something is overpowered because you personally can't beat it. By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂

I play multiple classes, one of which being a MagSorc.

Then you should be aware that they stand out in this test as they stack stats better than any other class, but outside of this test they are not top tier. They are completely beatable btw, you just have to lock them down and Los at range because you won't beat them there. Your op reads as if you got killed on your nightblade by a sorc and instead of being analytical about your loss you decided to complain about it instead and make a nerf thread.

I never said I was playing a nightblade. I said D-Tier classes aren't receiving buffs.

"Since the idea of nerfing a class with such a kit is rage provoking and buffing the D tier classes clearly isn't happening this should make everyone happy, right?"

Suddenly responses are..
"By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂"
"Too few problems with orthography and capitalisation to be a (Stamina-) Nightblade He also did not stress how awesome his build, rotation, and DPS (in PvP) is. There wasn't even a rage-quit ultimatum "
"He thinks nightblade is a “D tier class” and that’s hilarious."

So what I'm hearing (despite never discussing) is that nightblade is a D-tier class directly from the folks who are quick to assume that's what its class definition is. If you slow down and read the original post, the only class you can even derive me complaining for a fix about is the necro healing pet.

Magcro is underwhelming and could definetly use an offensive buff. Stamcro is insanely strong. If someone asks what sets to use on a stamcro the answer is anything you want... They are incredibly strong and have no reliance on sets. Complaining about sorcs when by your own admission you main necros is absurd. It only enforces the idea of a learn to play issue that was already very apparent from the OP.

L2P is too easy of a go to. It lacks effort.

I've just laid out what their built in class kit is capable of.

Thraben wrote: »

Augusten15 wrote: »

Let's review..

1: Gap closer, gap maker, AoE stun, damage, temp immunity, spam
2: Warden-like AoE pressure
3: Shield spam
4: Heal spam
5: Sustain spam
6: Stealth breaking delay damage and self AoE
7: Mag Damage spam that outperforms destro staff skills (Rare)
8: Stam Damage spam that compliments melee skills
9: Pets that function properly (Unlike necro healing pet)
10: An execute that fires for you incase someone CCs the 1-2-3 combo.

Some of these must be a high cost ultimate, right? Nope.

It's the perfect class with the perfect kit. But sometimes creativity spawns innovation.

1. BoL: I think it should be nerfed. In fact, I was against its current implementation in the first place. It forces other Magicka classes to become a Vampire in order to get the same benefits.

2. There are at least 3 classes that are better at it, including your MagNecro if you would stop playing it like a poor man's MagSorc.

3. If a Sorc is spamming shields, he does not put any pressure on the target. It's like blocking. Having 3 shields on your skill bar reduces your burst damage potential.

4. Every class can spam self heals. Sorc self heals have a lot of counterplay, too.

5. Every Magicka class can have infinite magicka if s/he wants to. A really good open world MagSorc won't even use Dark Deal, as Equilibrium is better for your burst damage.

6. Every class can do that.

7. True. Because, you know, what's the point of class skills if they are outperformed by generic weapon skills? Just look how much better Jabs are compared to Flurry.

8. Sorcs have the fewest stam supporting spam skills of all classes. It's actually a meme among more experienced players.

9. The Necro healing Pet is quite good - not because of the healing, but because of the damage reduction which other classes cannot get. It's the reason an able StamNecro is considered a really good Duelist.

10. Templars have an automatic 6k damage delayed burst after doing a 1-1-1-1-1-1 combo. Is it equally OP?

---

When considering class balance, you have to consider that there are more viable playstyles than Noob farming and kill leeching. If you try that on a MagNecro, of course it will feel like an uphill struggle. You have to play the classes according to their strengths. MagNecros and Magblades are "bomb" classes, MagTemplar and MagDK are 1vs1 classes, as are most Stamina classes, and MagSorcs are infamous Potato cannons.

The only class that really excels in most situations is the StamWarden. A normal MagSorc is no major threat to anyone who knows the game mechanics and changes his skill setup accordingly.

First off, thank you for putting together an intelligent and thought out response.

A few points that I disagree with though.

2. MagCro can only apply strong AoE pressure during ult which is rather expensive. I run a DoT/AoE build with double arena weapons but that doesn't say much about the class. If I'm missing a different solid build out there I'd love to see it since I'm unaware due to my own ignorance.

3 & 4. A strong shield and spam self heal is a 1 streak or 2 dodge roll reset. Example being break stun and gap close in about the same time sorc can shield and chunk heal. (Or dodge, shield, dodge, heal)

4. Not every class can spam self heals. Many rely on channels or HoTs. Unless your thinking of a cone heal from resto or something similar that heals for a fraction of that amount.

5&6. Just because every class can do it, doesn't mean they do it well. Necro scythe can do it in theory, but it's situational and performs poorly. Meanwhile hurricane is a larger circular AoE, grant minor expedition, major resolve, and sustained pressure. Some classes need 3 skills slotted to cover all of that.

7. The problem isn't that the class skills outperform, it's that they are one of the very few that do.

8. Most stam builds run weapon tree spams. I'm referring to crystal weapon which is a stronger Imbue Weapon that also grants some sustain and a debuff to the opponent.

9. Do you honestly feel that a 10% damage reduction and a channeled heal that often doesn't fire at all (This is a bug that will hopefully be fixed) is superior to a pet that is targetable, provides a burst heal from the same slot, does damage, and doesn't require 16 second refresh?

10. Key word is combo. "1-1-1-1-1-1" may be easy, but it's not as easy as "1". This one really can't be argued because there is no other way to get an auto fired execute in the game to my knowledge.

Your summary is solid, I have nothing to add.

Concerning 2 (AoE damage) that's what I mean by do not try to play like a MagSorc: have you tried the self-synergy using the harmony trait? You don't even need an Ulti. You can do 18-20k AoE against players in one single burst, every 20 seconds, without even using an Ultimate. The self- synergy is actually comparable with Soul Tether, the 150 Ulti MagBlade Ultimate, as both have the same radius, do roughly the same damage and substantially heal the user.

No one does this because, like a Bombblade, you are in trouble in 1vs1 situations, where both struggle against Duelist-type players, and unlike a MagBlade, you don't have access to cloak, Sap Essence, and Impale. You can find workarounds as a Vampire and with Impulse, but it won't be exactly the same (and should not be).

Concerning 4 (heal): The only class that solely relies on HoTs is the Stamplar; that's why many generally use the Psijc Ultimate on their back bar in order to reset the fight. In all other cases, having a burst heal is a decision: One that requires knowledge of the game, perhaps (see the StamNecro burst heal using the Graveyard), and sacrifice, but it is still a decision. From time to time, you can even see MagBlades who don't use their cloak in order to get the healing morph. The MagSorc's options are seemingly easy: But they are still only options, as an experienced player will very well know the downsides of a Twilight Heal, or Dark Deal.

Concerning 8 (chrystal weapons) Oh, I would gladly trade the Ruinous Scythe for this "spammable". Maybe you find out, why. It would be GLORIOUS. Bound Weapons should be a StamSorc- thing anyways. Make it happen ZOS!

Concerning 9 (pets) I would not sacrifice my Winged Twilight, but I would gladly offer my scamp for such a deal (Please don't tell him)
Oh, and I would trade the Curse for Blastbones as well. I miss my flaming familiar spell from Skyrim. Doesn't matter if it doesn't go off

RP- reasons aside, go to the Duelist community in the Alikr, and you will see that the damage transfer ghost is one of the 2 or 3 skills that actually make a difference when all the other skills are the same. It is the reason StamNecros are considered good Duelists.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

@Augusten15 I don't understand, are you trying to say this isn't a complaint thread? That would be a pretty hard thing to back peddle on.

I'm saying pointing out how a class is overperforming can easily be interpreted as a "complaint thread" if the reader is out for blood. That's why I never requested that anything be nerfed. I pointed out why I feel the game would be more enjoyable if the class was separated in PvP content as it feels like an outlier.

You can read in to this however you feel but my recent reply pointing out that to criticize a post about class performance by hypothetically choosing my main and telling me how OP that class is doesn't hold much ground.