Request: Elder Sorcs Online

Augusten15

Dear Zeni,

I've noticed lately that representation of mag and stam sorcs in whatever MMR bracket I live in(0 magblade/magcro representation, lots stamDKs, lots stamblades, TONS of mag/stam sorcs) is pushing 50% in many BGs. I don't have numbers on Cyro but feel free to back me up if they are performing well without procs.

Let's review..

1: Gap closer, gap maker, AoE stun, damage, temp immunity, spam
2: Warden-like AoE pressure
3: Shield spam
4: Heal spam
5: Sustain spam
6: Stealth breaking delay damage and self AoE
7: Mag Damage spam that outperforms destro staff skills (Rare)
8: Stam Damage spam that compliments melee skills
9: Pets that function properly (Unlike necro healing pet)
10: An execute that fires for you incase someone CCs the 1-2-3 combo.

Some of these must be a high cost ultimate, right? Nope.

It's the perfect class with the perfect kit. While the other 5 are constantly seeking and inventing new ways to build that can fill these gaps, sorc has earned the reputation of "easy" with an answer for everything. Yes, those that have their feelings hurt can tell you how uber high the skill ceiling is too. Don't even get me started on the 1 bar trial bosses running DW/Briar/Pale.

So I present a solution.. Let them all play together! Que sorcs only in pvp content and it should be the pinnacle of skilled play given they lack nothing and therefore have no excuses. Since the idea of nerfing a class with such a kit is rage provoking and buffing the D tier classes clearly isn't happening this should make everyone happy, right? Probably not. But sometimes creativity spawns innovation.

relentless_turnip

McGordon wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I agree👍 Duel some sorcs and figure it out. You shouldn't assume something is overpowered because you personally can't beat it. By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂

actosh

We have Warden like aoe pressure???
Stamsorc has a cool kit but Warden is better except mobility and maybe sustain.

Stam sorc's do have nice combo options with crystal weapon.

Don't use streak cause it a) *** up a real burst combo
b) ball of lightning is almost as strong as old dk wings.

Urzigurumash

relentless_turnip wrote: »

You shouldn't assume something is overpowered because you personally can't beat it.

Let me change my comment here. I agree with you and this idea should be applied in any nerf/buff discussions.

Urzigurumash

Strictly from an RP perspective, to me it makes sense the "MagSorc" would have the most diverse kit in terms of skills, just like it's always made sense to me on StamDK my kit consists of D Swing. This is sort of the nature of these RPG archetypes. I know this is an MMO and needs balance beyond RP considerations, but it's something to consider.

Thraben

relentless_turnip wrote: »

McGordon wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I agree👍 Duel some sorcs and figure it out. You shouldn't assume something is overpowered because you personally can't beat it. By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂

Too few problems with orthography and capitalisation to be a (Stamina-) Nightblade He also did not stress how awesome his build, rotation, and DPS (in PvP) is. There wasn't even a rage-quit ultimatum

actosh

BTW im happy for Magsorc that their class "spammable" outperforms the generic weapon skill lines

For my stamsorc im happy I can combo dswing with crystal weapon

Sorc's are not that hard to beat.
Their just annoying to fight.

relentless_turnip

Thraben wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

McGordon wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I agree👍 Duel some sorcs and figure it out. You shouldn't assume something is overpowered because you personally can't beat it. By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂

Too few problems with orthography and capitalisation to be a (Stamina-) Nightblade He also did not stress how awesome his build, rotation, and DPS (in PvP) is. There wasn't even a rage-quit ultimatum

I only speculate this as he mentioned streaks ability to reveal. It's only an issue for one class. Besides on a stamsorc I love the ability to flip a ganker to the gankee 😂

Joy_Division

Instead of whining about spam, just practice and get better at the game.

Minalan

He thinks nightblade is a “D tier class” and that’s hilarious.

What happened is that someone got used to their proc sets fighting for them and can’t handle pressing buttons to kill people. To be fair, playing the game by yourself is kind of hard, when it’s been doing that for you for so long.

PhoenixGrey

Is op confused between stamblade and sorc

Augusten15

Minalan wrote: »

He thinks nightblade is a “D tier class” and that’s hilarious.

What happened is that someone got used to their proc sets fighting for them and can’t handle pressing buttons to kill people. To be fair, playing the game by yourself is kind of hard, when it’s been doing that for you for so long.

Feel free to quote when I said that nightblade is a D tier class.

Augusten15

relentless_turnip wrote: »

McGordon wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I agree👍 Duel some sorcs and figure it out. You shouldn't assume something is overpowered because you personally can't beat it. By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂

I play multiple classes, one of which being a MagSorc.

Urzigurumash

@relentless_turnip and @Joy_Division

Do think there is any relationship between how you feel about Sorcs and how you feel about Heavy Armor builds? From my point of view Sorcs lose the 2nd most of their kit's power budget by equipping Heavy, behind Nightblade.

Minalan

Augusten15 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

He thinks nightblade is a “D tier class” and that’s hilarious.

What happened is that someone got used to their proc sets fighting for them and can’t handle pressing buttons to kill people. To be fair, playing the game by yourself is kind of hard, when it’s been doing that for you for so long.

Feel free to quote when I said that nightblade is a D tier class.

“Since the idea of nerfing a class with such a kit is rage provoking and buffing the D tier classes clearly isn't happening this should make everyone happy, right?”

I assume you think your class is “D-tier”?

Don’t worry, your proc sets will be back in about a week.

Augusten15

I think you're all being too hard on a great idea to show off your impressive sorc skills!

It's a great idea for balance and requires no nerfs though some seem to paraphrase a bit much in your responses..

Minalan wrote: »

Augusten15 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

He thinks nightblade is a “D tier class” and that’s hilarious.

What happened is that someone got used to their proc sets fighting for them and can’t handle pressing buttons to kill people. To be fair, playing the game by yourself is kind of hard, when it’s been doing that for you for so long.

Feel free to quote when I said that nightblade is a D tier class.

“Since the idea of nerfing a class with such a kit is rage provoking and buffing the D tier classes clearly isn't happening this should make everyone happy, right?”

I assume you think your class is “D-tier”?

Don’t worry, your proc sets will be back in about a week.

You know what they say about assuming.

katorga

I love calls to nerf something based on a three week temporary test.

It is really not something you base balance decisions on.

relentless_turnip

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@relentless_turnip and @Joy_Division

Do think there is any relationship between how you feel about Sorcs and how you feel about Heavy Armor builds? From my point of view Sorcs lose the 2nd most of their kit's power budget by equipping Heavy, behind Nightblade.

My opinion about heavy is somewhat stand alone. I think heavy armor should offer you a lot of defence with the penalty of doing less damage. I don't feel that is the case currently especially with malacath closing the crit gap you would benefit from in medium or light.

My opinion on sorcs in the context of this discussion is that they don't require a nerf because the OP died to one. I take issue with a person who is willing to look in every direction except their own when it comes to losing.

We have all been there and been killed by someone. Some people will analyse the fight and ponder on how they could have bettered the outcome and some just decide that the other player had some sort of advantage. Which in some cases might be true, but promoting an individual to blame a class that has been in the game since it's inception for their failings is a mistake. It helps no one. The player who got beat by the sorc remains bad at the game and when sorcs get nerfed because their complaints were indulged the game moves forward into a worse place.

relentless_turnip

Augusten15 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

McGordon wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I agree👍 Duel some sorcs and figure it out. You shouldn't assume something is overpowered because you personally can't beat it. By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂

I play multiple classes, one of which being a MagSorc.

Then you should be aware that they stand out in this test as they stack stats better than any other class, but outside of this test they are not top tier. They are completely beatable btw, you just have to lock them down and Los at range because you won't beat them there. Your op reads as if you got killed on your nightblade by a sorc and instead of being analytical about your loss you decided to complain about it instead and make a nerf thread.

Vetixio

So many stam proc players crying about Sorcs and magicka classes being slightly more viable in this test
Don't worry it'll be fine next patch with you doing even more damage to the already squishiest armor type, no downsides to your armor and free minor breach. So let magicka have some fun in Cyro before they all become free ap for you next patch

Joy_Division

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@relentless_turnip and @Joy_Division

Do think there is any relationship between how you feel about Sorcs and how you feel about Heavy Armor builds? From my point of view Sorcs lose the 2nd most of their kit's power budget by equipping Heavy, behind Nightblade.

Nope.

One has nothing to do with the other. Ever since the 1.6 patch, (magicka) sorcerers have been good and easy to play, which has given inexperienced players the impression they are OP, which is not the same thing. I would say they are frustrating to fight, but that is mostly a consequences of the unnecessary nerfs ZOS has hammered on classes that don;t need them. When I felt magplar was in a good place, I beleived I had legit options fighting a (magicka) sorcerer.

I don;t have an issue with heavy armor per se. My issue is when it becomes "best-in-slot" to use a heavy armor set ZOS clearly designed for "tank" build such as Alessian Order and to slap on a couple of proc sets like Zaan and Vatesrhan destro, and then use a quirky skill like Mist Form on my, ehem, "Templar," to create a powerful builds that has high effectiveness in everything. This has nothing to do with pros and cons, nothing to do with even class balance. It circumvents the supposed disadvantages that were told are supposed to accompany wearing a heavy armor tank set like Alessian Order because my Zaan and Vatesrhan do the same damage wearing that as they would in my Mother sorrow +Perfected False Gods PVE DPS build and Elusive Mist laughs at the piddling mobility options built into the light and medium trees.

Faded

Wait no Warden-like AOE pressure? 😱

Augusten15 wrote: »

It's the perfect class with the perfect kit. While the other 5 are constantly seeking and inventing new ways to build that can fill these gaps, sorc has earned the reputation of "easy" with an answer for everything. Yes, those that have their feelings hurt can tell you how uber high the skill ceiling is too. Don't even get me started on the 1 bar trial bosses running DW/Briar/Pale.

So I present a solution.. Let them all play together! Que sorcs only in pvp content and it should be the pinnacle of skilled play given they lack nothing and therefore have no excuses. Since the idea of nerfing a class with such a kit is rage provoking and buffing the D tier classes clearly isn't happening this should make everyone happy, right? Probably not. But sometimes creativity spawns innovation.

Frustration also spawns innovation. Sorcs have good kit, but they're not unkillable. Figure it out.

Augusten15

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Augusten15 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

McGordon wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I agree👍 Duel some sorcs and figure it out. You shouldn't assume something is overpowered because you personally can't beat it. By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂

I play multiple classes, one of which being a MagSorc.

Then you should be aware that they stand out in this test as they stack stats better than any other class, but outside of this test they are not top tier. They are completely beatable btw, you just have to lock them down and Los at range because you won't beat them there. Your op reads as if you got killed on your nightblade by a sorc and instead of being analytical about your loss you decided to complain about it instead and make a nerf thread.

I'm still at a loss about this nightblade thing. I main 2 necros as stam/mag.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Augusten15 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

McGordon wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I agree👍 Duel some sorcs and figure it out. You shouldn't assume something is overpowered because you personally can't beat it. By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂

I play multiple classes, one of which being a MagSorc.

Then you should be aware that they stand out in this test as they stack stats better than any other class, but outside of this test they are not top tier. They are completely beatable btw, you just have to lock them down and Los at range because you won't beat them there. Your op reads as if you got killed on your nightblade by a sorc and instead of being analytical about your loss you decided to complain about it instead and make a nerf thread.

I never said I was playing a nightblade. I said D-Tier classes aren't receiving buffs.

"Since the idea of nerfing a class with such a kit is rage provoking and buffing the D tier classes clearly isn't happening this should make everyone happy, right?"

Suddenly responses are..
"By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂"
"Too few problems with orthography and capitalisation to be a (Stamina-) Nightblade He also did not stress how awesome his build, rotation, and DPS (in PvP) is. There wasn't even a rage-quit ultimatum "
"He thinks nightblade is a “D tier class” and that’s hilarious."

So what I'm hearing (despite never discussing) is that nightblade is a D-tier class directly from the folks who are quick to assume that's what its class definition is. If you slow down and read the original post, the only class you can even derive me complaining for a fix about is the necro healing pet.

relentless_turnip

Augusten15 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Augusten15 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

McGordon wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I agree👍 Duel some sorcs and figure it out. You shouldn't assume something is overpowered because you personally can't beat it. By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂

I play multiple classes, one of which being a MagSorc.

Then you should be aware that they stand out in this test as they stack stats better than any other class, but outside of this test they are not top tier. They are completely beatable btw, you just have to lock them down and Los at range because you won't beat them there. Your op reads as if you got killed on your nightblade by a sorc and instead of being analytical about your loss you decided to complain about it instead and make a nerf thread.

I'm still at a loss about this nightblade thing. I main 2 necros as stam/mag.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Augusten15 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

McGordon wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I agree👍 Duel some sorcs and figure it out. You shouldn't assume something is overpowered because you personally can't beat it. By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂

I play multiple classes, one of which being a MagSorc.

Then you should be aware that they stand out in this test as they stack stats better than any other class, but outside of this test they are not top tier. They are completely beatable btw, you just have to lock them down and Los at range because you won't beat them there. Your op reads as if you got killed on your nightblade by a sorc and instead of being analytical about your loss you decided to complain about it instead and make a nerf thread.

I never said I was playing a nightblade. I said D-Tier classes aren't receiving buffs.

"Since the idea of nerfing a class with such a kit is rage provoking and buffing the D tier classes clearly isn't happening this should make everyone happy, right?"

Suddenly responses are..
"By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂"
"Too few problems with orthography and capitalisation to be a (Stamina-) Nightblade He also did not stress how awesome his build, rotation, and DPS (in PvP) is. There wasn't even a rage-quit ultimatum "
"He thinks nightblade is a “D tier class” and that’s hilarious."

So what I'm hearing (despite never discussing) is that nightblade is a D-tier class directly from the folks who are quick to assume that's what its class definition is. If you slow down and read the original post, the only class you can even derive me complaining for a fix about is the necro healing pet.

Magcro is underwhelming and could definetly use an offensive buff. Stamcro is insanely strong. If someone asks what sets to use on a stamcro the answer is anything you want... They are incredibly strong and have no reliance on sets. Complaining about sorcs when by your own admission you main necros is absurd. It only enforces the idea of a learn to play issue that was already very apparent from the OP.

Urzigurumash

@relentless_turnip @Joy_Division

Thank you for thoughtful responses. This is was an inappropriate thread for this discussion, but I've felt that Nerf Heavy was just the inverse to Nerf Sorc for a long time, and we had discussions in other threads about whether Heavy should receive a Maim per piece and whether "tanks should be tanks".

I agree with your responses, but feel as though you could replace Sorc with Heavy DD in your responses and they would still read accurately. Heavy Armor passives have not caused the proc meta, the proc sets have, a Maim on Heavy Armor is not an appropriate solution to the proc meta. The meta would shift to running proc sets in all Medium and Light. A Crimson meta would be replaced by an Unleashed meta. Hunter's Venom and Caluurion's are very popular as it is. Heavy armor is one mean of defense, and at least on Xbox, a number of heavy armor damage sets, both stat and proc, have been around since Day 1. Alessian is a defensive set, like Armor Master, popular in light, and these should limit your damage and your sustain by way of not providing damage and resources. If we say Heavy Armor is absolutely for tanking, and so each piece should reduce damage, then do we look at Harness Magicka and Empowered Ward as the next targets for making sure tanking tools are limited to tanks only? When damage shields were given resistance scaling at Murkmire (?) I recall part of the reason was to encourage the use of damage shields as tools for tanking. If we can't have DDs and Tanks sharing methods, then we can't, but this separation won't be completed with only the deletion of the Heavy DD. Restore Health potions are a tool for tanks, not DDs, they use Weapon and Spell Power pots. Should dealing damage not be something we include within the scope of "tanking" in PvP? How would you compare the tactical relevance of Harbinger's to Vanguard's Challenge?

None of this is to say that I think the current meta is flawless and things should remain this way. My point is that I think the idea that imbalance in PvP would be solved if only "tank were tanks" is difficult to reconcile with the array of methods available to all sorts of builds. My opinion is that the rewards for building into Crit should be more pronounced, and that Heavy armor, procs, and Malacath would lose favor among players in this way, rather than through the removal of a Day 1 (on Xbox anyhow) playstyle from the game.

My expectation is that we will see a considerable reduction to the efficacy of Heavy armor builds in BGs through the increases to roll-dodge and sprint in Heavy.

Urzigurumash

Of course @Joy_Division as we've discussed the real difficulty is reconciling the Tank-Healer-DD trinity in PvE with the theoretical Warrior-Mage-Thief trinity in PvP. Obviously these new passives have the Warrior-Mage-Thief trinity in mind. From a more traditional perspective as you've said the "DPS" of a Mage would exceed that of the Thief, which would exceed that of the Warrior, and vice-versa for "HPS".

PhoenixGrey

Augusten15 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

He thinks nightblade is a “D tier class” and that’s hilarious.

What happened is that someone got used to their proc sets fighting for them and can’t handle pressing buttons to kill people. To be fair, playing the game by yourself is kind of hard, when it’s been doing that for you for so long.

Feel free to quote when I said that nightblade is a D tier class.

Whats the problem then ? can't time incap and bow proc to delete a 25k health sorc ?

Or you can't time a gap closer with subassault and dawn breaker. Pretty braindead combos to delete sorcs

PhoenixGrey

Any further complaints on mag sorc can be addressed like this.

Hop on a mag sorc yourself. Since I am the clearly better sorc on this forum who still plays this game, I will allow you bring a friend or 2 also on their mag sorcs. We shall then settle how A tier this class actually is.

Also please do Hurry! Offer expires in a week !

Minalan

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Any further complaints on mag sorc can be addressed like this.

Hop on a mag sorc yourself. Since I am the clearly better sorc on this forum who still plays this game, I will allow you bring a friend or 2 also on their mag sorcs. We shall then settle how A tier this class actually is.

Also please do Hurry! Offer expires in a week !

I wouldn’t bother man, I’m quitting again as soon as the proc sets come back in a week. It was fun, but it couldn’t last. Sorcs will go back to trash tier again with auto proc healing and automated damage again supreme.

ZOS won’t do anything cool like a “no proc” full CP campaign. Then I would have to spend money on this game again.

Augusten15

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Augusten15 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Augusten15 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

McGordon wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I agree👍 Duel some sorcs and figure it out. You shouldn't assume something is overpowered because you personally can't beat it. By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂

I play multiple classes, one of which being a MagSorc.

Then you should be aware that they stand out in this test as they stack stats better than any other class, but outside of this test they are not top tier. They are completely beatable btw, you just have to lock them down and Los at range because you won't beat them there. Your op reads as if you got killed on your nightblade by a sorc and instead of being analytical about your loss you decided to complain about it instead and make a nerf thread.

I'm still at a loss about this nightblade thing. I main 2 necros as stam/mag.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Augusten15 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

McGordon wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I agree👍 Duel some sorcs and figure it out. You shouldn't assume something is overpowered because you personally can't beat it. By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂

I play multiple classes, one of which being a MagSorc.

Then you should be aware that they stand out in this test as they stack stats better than any other class, but outside of this test they are not top tier. They are completely beatable btw, you just have to lock them down and Los at range because you won't beat them there. Your op reads as if you got killed on your nightblade by a sorc and instead of being analytical about your loss you decided to complain about it instead and make a nerf thread.

I never said I was playing a nightblade. I said D-Tier classes aren't receiving buffs.

"Since the idea of nerfing a class with such a kit is rage provoking and buffing the D tier classes clearly isn't happening this should make everyone happy, right?"

Suddenly responses are..
"By the sounds of it your a nightblade 😂"
"Too few problems with orthography and capitalisation to be a (Stamina-) Nightblade He also did not stress how awesome his build, rotation, and DPS (in PvP) is. There wasn't even a rage-quit ultimatum "
"He thinks nightblade is a “D tier class” and that’s hilarious."

So what I'm hearing (despite never discussing) is that nightblade is a D-tier class directly from the folks who are quick to assume that's what its class definition is. If you slow down and read the original post, the only class you can even derive me complaining for a fix about is the necro healing pet.

Magcro is underwhelming and could definetly use an offensive buff. Stamcro is insanely strong. If someone asks what sets to use on a stamcro the answer is anything you want... They are incredibly strong and have no reliance on sets. Complaining about sorcs when by your own admission you main necros is absurd. It only enforces the idea of a learn to play issue that was already very apparent from the OP.

This does a great job of explaining the lower than expected activity in this community.

No one has once actually read/responded to the proposed solution of the thread! As a matter of fact, the responses have created a false narrative completely derailing the topic in multiple directions.

1. I posted about how well one class is performing and it's capabilities, suggesting they be placed in their own bracket as opposed to being hit with nerfs. Immediately the thought is to identify my class and insult me for it. A key demonstration is use of the word "admission" as if I'm admitting guilt for playing a class you find to be "insanely strong". I've said it once but since reading is a challenge for some, I'll restate it. I play multiple classes. I create a stam and mag variant of each to learn which ones I enjoy and understand their kits. I don't have a favorite, my "main" changes frequently. (before someone strides off with that sentence accusing me of playing FotM, I'd be quite content with sorc if that were the case) Point being, It doesn't make much sense to tell someone they are complaining about a class by complaining about their assumed class.

2. Some moron attacked saying proc sets will be back soon. I clearly posted my experience is not in Cyro from the beginning. This is obviously not a discussion about proc sets and attempts like this are just flat out lazy.

3. Mr. Irony, that was my fault and I take ownership for it.

4. L2P? This is such a braindead response I think it falls under the category of trolling. It means you stopped reading when you saw something that you didn't like but still felt like being an ass because it implies that you know how to play and others don't.

Now I've clearly laid out the capabilities of the class skills and what I think would be a viable solution. Everyone can continue on pretending they don't point out class flaws by.. complaining about other classes and proc sets directed in the form of a personal attack.

Joy_Division

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@relentless_turnip @Joy_Division

Thank you for thoughtful responses. This is was an inappropriate thread for this discussion, but I've felt that Nerf Heavy was just the inverse to Nerf Sorc for a long time, and we had discussions in other threads about whether Heavy should receive a Maim per piece and whether "tanks should be tanks".

I agree with your responses, but feel as though you could replace Sorc with Heavy DD in your responses and they would still read accurately. Heavy Armor passives have not caused the proc meta, the proc sets have, a Maim on Heavy Armor is not an appropriate solution to the proc meta. The meta would shift to running proc sets in all Medium and Light. A Crimson meta would be replaced by an Unleashed meta. Hunter's Venom and Caluurion's are very popular as it is. Heavy armor is one mean of defense, and at least on Xbox, a number of heavy armor damage sets, both stat and proc, have been around since Day 1. Alessian is a defensive set, like Armor Master, popular in light, and these should limit your damage and your sustain by way of not providing damage and resources. If we say Heavy Armor is absolutely for tanking, and so each piece should reduce damage, then do we look at Harness Magicka and Empowered Ward as the next targets for making sure tanking tools are limited to tanks only? When damage shields were given resistance scaling at Murkmire (?) I recall part of the reason was to encourage the use of damage shields as tools for tanking. If we can't have DDs and Tanks sharing methods, then we can't, but this separation won't be completed with only the deletion of the Heavy DD. Restore Health potions are a tool for tanks, not DDs, they use Weapon and Spell Power pots. Should dealing damage not be something we include within the scope of "tanking" in PvP? How would you compare the tactical relevance of Harbinger's to Vanguard's Challenge?

To a point. In the past.

I suppose it would not have been wrong in Summer of 2015 to make the case that all a sorcerer had to do was devote every single resource into magicka and was rewarded with huge offensive and 20 second shields that blocked proc sets. It's not 2015 anymore, shields last 6 seconds and now trigger procs, and the perpetually higher tiered stamina warden exists in the game now, so I don't think the analogy that sorc combines a disproportionate amount of tanking with damage holds water anymore.

People are just all of a sudden complaining about sorcerer because their classes lost the gear sets that have been carrying them. Once this test is over, people will go back to complaining about 40K health tanks with proc sets.

I think the issue you're struggling here is that for some strange reason, someone decided that MMOs should be based around a "tank" that completely ignored the historical concept of a "tank." Heavy armor/protection has, forever, allowed the employment of stronger firepower in military history. Like always. The largest guns were used by the heaviest tanks in WWII. Knights in medieval Europe stopped wearing shields and used 2 handed weapons because plate armor gave them enough protection. Battleships had 16 inch guns while destroyers had 5 inch guns. B17s carried thousands of pounds of high explosive bombs whereas P51s had a few 50 caliber machine guns. That's the way historical combat worked and was, ehem, "balanced." Because the genre is built around the erroneous assumption that a "tank" is just supposed to be a damage sponge that poses no threat offensively (yet highly intelligent "big bad evil antagonists somehow have a target fixation against them), mechanics that break that premise are going to be a problem with the game's balance foundation.