We can kill meta builds
ZeroDPS
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I will not be verbose here, so new players choose what you want, old players will understand what Im about.
So what we have now is 2 big sets and 1 small set(mask or mythic) and its not that difficult to understand which 2 sets I need to use to be meta(even testing of 2 sets is very easy).
You may ask how we can literally destroy all metas, and here is the answer by adding possibility for the third set!!!
So at the end we will have 3 sets and 1 mask or 1 set bonus
You can count how many possibilities we will have with 3 set slots.... its too many and almost impossible to understand and especially test which combination of three is the meta
What u think guys?
So what we have now is 2 big sets and 1 small set(mask or mythic) and its not that difficult to understand which 2 sets I need to use to be meta(even testing of 2 sets is very easy).
You may ask how we can literally destroy all metas, and here is the answer by adding possibility for the third set!!!
So at the end we will have 3 sets and 1 mask or 1 set bonus
You can count how many possibilities we will have with 3 set slots.... its too many and almost impossible to understand and especially test which combination of three is the meta
What u think guys?
We can kill meta builds 106 votes
Good Idea
23%
25 votes
Bad Idea
67%
72 votes
My Idea In Comments
8%
9 votes
0
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ZeroDPS✭✭✭✭Good IdeaForgot to add, this everybody can have its own style and build, main problem because of which we are having nerfs and big changes are metas!2
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SgtNuttzmeg✭✭✭✭Bad IdeaForgot to add, this everybody can have its own style and build, main problem because of which we are having nerfs and big changes are metas!
You want 3 five piece sets on one person? Or 17 item slots instead of the 14.Edited by SgtNuttzmeg on March 1, 2021 2:30AMLegions of Mordor Core
Cold0neFTBs0 -
ZeroDPS✭✭✭✭Good IdeaSgtNuttzmeg wrote: »
Yes, 3 5pcs sets, yes dps will go higher but anyway they already nerfed too high with upcoming chapter0 -
SgtNuttzmeg✭✭✭✭Bad IdeaSgtNuttzmeg wrote: »
Yes, 3 5pcs sets, yes dps will go higher but anyway they already nerfed too high with upcoming chapter
That would be absolutely terrible. Would ruin what's left of balance. ESO balance is based on limiting players and forcing them to choose. The moment you remove that it would create massive balance problems.Legions of Mordor Core
Cold0neFTBs9 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bad IdeaThis would do nothing to get rid of meta. You'd just have a 3 piece meta instead of a 2 piece. It would just further increase the gap between vets and newbies/casuals.
You don't get rid of meta by adding more max power achievable. You do it by either lowering the power achievable in ways that are specific to what high end players are doing, or make running meta less necessary to completing content by making less dps checks, more consistent mechanics, and making those mechanics unskippable. This way you don't need a meta build to get everything accomplished, you just need a very good understanding of the mechanics of the dungeon you're running.Edited by spartaxoxo on March 1, 2021 2:50AM5 -
ZeroDPS✭✭✭✭Good IdeaSgtNuttzmeg wrote: »SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »
Yes, 3 5pcs sets, yes dps will go higher but anyway they already nerfed too high with upcoming chapter
That would be absolutely terrible. Would ruin what's left of balance. ESO balance is based on limiting players and forcing them to choose. The moment you remove that it would create massive balance problems.
U are not removing it, but adding even more, did you even read what I wrote?0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bad IdeaSgtNuttzmeg wrote: »SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »
Yes, 3 5pcs sets, yes dps will go higher but anyway they already nerfed too high with upcoming chapter
That would be absolutely terrible. Would ruin what's left of balance. ESO balance is based on limiting players and forcing them to choose. The moment you remove that it would create massive balance problems.
U are not removing it, but adding even more, did you even read what I wrote?
He's saying you are removing a build limitation.Edited by spartaxoxo on March 1, 2021 2:51AM2 -
ZeroDPS✭✭✭✭Good Ideaspartaxoxo wrote: »SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »
Yes, 3 5pcs sets, yes dps will go higher but anyway they already nerfed too high with upcoming chapter
That would be absolutely terrible. Would ruin what's left of balance. ESO balance is based on limiting players and forcing them to choose. The moment you remove that it would create massive balance problems.
U are not removing it, but adding even more, did you even read what I wrote?
He's saying you are removing a build limitation.
Yes, why we even need build limitation? This is where all our problems are coming from.
One intelligent guy finds out what is the metas in pvp/pve posting it in the youtube and thats it, all players are ignoring 99% of game sets and trying to get to meta... imho 3 sets will be very interesting and impossible to find meta
@ZOS_GinaBruno can we pls send this info to game design and combat teams?0 -
Welven✭✭✭Bad IdeaOne intelligent guy finds out what is the metas in pvp/pve posting it in the youtube and thats it, all players are ignoring 99% of game sets and trying to get to meta...
..and people will do the EXACT same thing with 3 5pc sets. There is nothing impossible about finding a meta just because you add an extra 5pc set. ZoS is literally getting ready to nerf damage with the upcoming patch on the 8th. There is less than zero chance they'll ever consider this. It would almost certainly widen the gap between top tier and average players by a lot more than it is now. ZoS has shown they are only interested in closing that gap.
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paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bad IdeaYea no. mathematically there will always a best possible combination. Adding more sets to your arsenal will not change the fact that someone is going to come up with the best combination and that is what will be used. Maybe it will take a bit longer with more combinations, but that doesn't change the fact that it will be found and then everything else will be useless. Its the same in basically all MMOs. The meta exists for a reason, and while playing off-meta is fine. Killing the meta is impossible, you can only change it to something else. Which the game does by itself every few updates regardless, the meta is ever changing but always there.2 -
cyclonus11✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Good IdeaI can see the idea of creating so many potential combinations that a clear meta would be highly unlikely - if a meta did exist, it would be virtually indistinguishable from several other combinations as the differences would be too small to matter. I thought about this regarding class trees - what if we could choose any three class trees of the available 18, yielding a total of 816 possible class combinations?
With equipment, there's the problem of having too many 5-piece bonuses active. You might have a number of endgame possibilities, but it would make everyone overpowered. Also, how would you split it up? 2 pauldrons, 2 gauntlets, 2 sabatons, and 4 rings? They'd have to redesign character models! Not to mention that would look weird with a different shoe on each foot...
Last, but not least, is the lag issue. I remember Star Wars Galaxies - each player could have unique items the way materials were farmed and gear crafted. It was a cool idea, but if you think ESO has bad lag, whoooooo boy...
(I voted yes by mistake.)1 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Bad IdeaMETA is not problem in game now.
META is a problem in peoples head.
To have a better gear do not make you better player.
Have a gear that you can use better and get better results do you better player.
People think that if they copy some sets, that do DPS on dummy with 10 k hp, all other hp, regens, def - party have to give them.
But not the same dps if you do it in real gear with real hp and etc.
And party must not provide you this.
There are a lot if different support sets now, so people who think that if they use hints on dummy and show better results on dummy all other group must work for them.
But with other sets other people can show better results, so it is not like something better - it is like: "i do the way, others can not normally play"
Just like as example run with boss on archer and hit it, while all other melee party can not agr and hit it, becouse it run to fast.
But if tank agro first results will be better.
All META problem is in people head, if some sets are to powerless, just correct there values, it is not some impossible to do.
But correct peoples brain that think, that if some body play good and play some sets they will be more effective in it, is not as simple.1 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Meta is the absolute worst thing about MMO's, and ESO included. I am for anything that removes "meta" from the game.
But this won't do it.1 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bad IdeaAnd how does it solves anything? Use 2 best sets and then find the 3rd one. Afterall its just about a bit of time and new meta will be created. The only way to make everything even in terms of power is to make it the same which would kill the game. When things differ even by a 0.1% there is still that difference and meta chasers will always go for that.
I would rather not be forced to refarm all my gear. No thanks, patch balance roller coaster is enough.I'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.2 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Bad Ideaspartaxoxo wrote: »SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »
Yes, 3 5pcs sets, yes dps will go higher but anyway they already nerfed too high with upcoming chapter
That would be absolutely terrible. Would ruin what's left of balance. ESO balance is based on limiting players and forcing them to choose. The moment you remove that it would create massive balance problems.
U are not removing it, but adding even more, did you even read what I wrote?
He's saying you are removing a build limitation.
Yes, why we even need build limitation? This is where all our problems are coming from.
One intelligent guy finds out what is the metas in pvp/pve posting it in the youtube and thats it, all players are ignoring 99% of game sets and trying to get to meta... imho 3 sets will be very interesting and impossible to find meta
@ZOS_GinaBruno can we pls send this info to game design and combat teams?
It would take me about an hour to sit down and figure out the meta for each class lol.
The problem isn't that there's always a meta, the issue is that the current meta sucks. Stack health and health regen and use procs.1 -
KhajiitLivesMatter✭✭✭✭Bad IdeaI will not be verbose here, so new players choose what you want, old players will understand what Im about.
So what we have now is 2 big sets and 1 small set(mask or mythic) and its not that difficult to understand which 2 sets I need to use to be meta(even testing of 2 sets is very easy).
You may ask how we can literally destroy all metas, and here is the answer by adding possibility for the third set!!!
So at the end we will have 3 sets and 1 mask or 1 set bonus
You can count how many possibilities we will have with 3 set slots.... its too many and almost impossible to understand and especially test which combination of three is the meta
What u think guys?
its impossible to kill meta, the meta will just change and u cant kill it
meta is just the most efficent tactic aviable
so if u nerf a tactic there will just be a new better one2 -
Nairinhe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bad IdeaMeta doesn't care how many trash options you have, when there always is an optimal combination.
More slots means only that: more trash options. Or so-so. Or kinda viable ones. Or pretty good ones. But they don't cancel meta. If anything, it would allow to make it even stronger - if it's health, you would be able to get even more health.
If there are options - there is meta (but if anyone here happens to know example of a game with competitive combat and without meta - I'd like to know). Because balance is never perfect.
P.S. I run a so-so build with full monster set, full 5-piece, arena weapons and either full 3-piece jewelry or 2 jewels and The Solo Ring (the Ring of the Pale Order). That's 5 different sets, 6 if you count backbar. Yay! I killed meta!
Edit: P.P.S. You don't have to follow meta to have fun, just saying.Edited by Nairinhe on March 1, 2021 8:28AM3 -
Blue_Radium✭✭✭Bad IdeaWhat new gear slots do you propose they add? Make chest, legs, and boots count twice towards set bonuses, or something akin to that?
As far as killing meta builds, if that is what you want to do, this would not do it. There is always a best. What's best would change, and it'd take a week running tests for the new best to be discovered, but it would be found and the new meta would be established.
I think it's a bad idea, because you'd just be further complicating the already very very hard to properly balance gear system. Another layer of variables would only further lock in a defined, specific gear meta, because the differences between proper gearing and less than optimal gearing would be greater.1 -
SgtNuttzmeg✭✭✭✭Bad IdeaSgtNuttzmeg wrote: »SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »
Yes, 3 5pcs sets, yes dps will go higher but anyway they already nerfed too high with upcoming chapter
That would be absolutely terrible. Would ruin what's left of balance. ESO balance is based on limiting players and forcing them to choose. The moment you remove that it would create massive balance problems.
U are not removing it, but adding even more, did you even read what I wrote?
You are removing one of the limiting factors of builds so in fact you are removing one of the things that controls the power level of players. This would be terrible in both PvP and PvE.Legions of Mordor Core
Cold0neFTBs3 -
Mettaricana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Honedtly lets take a trip back to es3 and have left gauntlet right gauntlet left pauldrom right pauldron as seperate peices effectively adds 2 more gear slots would allow either a boss helm, arena wep or mythic to fill the set peice gap. If they added capes or underarmor etc we could milk one more slot for an addition 3pc set like agility, vengeance lech, etc0 -
etchedpixels✭✭✭✭✭
✭My Idea In CommentsThere are already a bunch of 3 piece sets. There are also a load of two piece sets from trials and arenas.
Things like grace of the ancients (3 piece max magicka), wrath of the imperium (3 piece spell critical), trainee (best in slot 3 piece for many things, best two piece for many non monster helm builds).
So you can already run things like 5/3/3/mythic and 5/3/2/monster helm or even 3/3/3/3 and 3/3/3/monster helm/mythic combs.
Too many toons not enough time2 -
Nairinhe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bad IdeaMettaricana wrote: »Honedtly lets take a trip back to es3 and have left gauntlet right gauntlet left pauldrom right pauldron as seperate peices effectively adds 2 more gear slots would allow either a boss helm, arena wep or mythic to fill the set peice gap. If they added capes or underarmor etc we could milk one more slot for an addition 3pc set like agility, vengeance lech, etc
Left boot, right boot, robe over armor (I think TES III let you do that) and we have ten fingers, not two, and... and... earrings!0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bad IdeaIn any game, unless the gear is identical to one another (and you're likely to be playing some mobile game), there will always be a META.
By the very nature of player choice and unique sets/skill/etc, there will always be some combination that is better than others.
Now, by balancing you can make the differences very minor, so that you have other choices, but one particular setup, skill bars, and rotation will outperform all others no matter how much balancing you do.The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Xalvakka's Scourge - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger71,345 achievement points0 -
orion_1981usub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭A game with no meta is a game with no agency. Don't let others make you a slave to their mediocrity.0
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kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭My Idea In CommentsI don't think allowing a 3rd set would really help. There would just be a mathematical 3rd best. I would prefer if the mathematical best wasn't always the best in a group setting.
I liked "the meta" better back in the day when you had 1 player run Sunderflame, 1 run Nightmother, 1 run Morag Tong, etc, because there were a lot of individual group buffs/debuffs that could be obtained. It seems we are going back to that to some degree (e.g. Roaring Opportunist), but I would like to see a review of all sets that drop in trials to make them good for trials (makes sense right?). For example: make Moondancer apply to 12 players instead of 1.
A big thing that would help is removing Minor Slayer from the 3 piece bonuses and putting a standard weapon damage/spell damage bonus in its place. This would at least make it so that sets with Minor Slayer aren't a default choice.
Another thing I would like to see is have the 5 piece bonuses on dungeon and trial sets have the proc condition "While in a dungeon or trial", so the combat team can optimize them for dungeons and trials without having to worry about upsetting the balance for PvP content.
Edited by kojou on March 1, 2021 3:49PMPlaying since beta...0 -
DTStormfox✭✭✭✭✭Bad IdeaIncreasing the number of sets players can wear will not solve the problem of 'meta builds' (if you consider it a problem in the first place).1
