Please reconsider the 20% nerf to max-resource sets!

WrathOfInnos · February 2021

Yep, you’re right, many sets that were already weak are about to become much weaker. I would also add Ebon to the list, although even with the 20% multiplier it would be questionable to use given the size of health pools on PTS.

It doesn’t stop at sets either. Jewelry traits like Arcane/Robust/Healthy took that same 20% nerf, and retraiting is essential for any strong build, even triune isn’t looking very good from a stat-density perspective. Similar story with mundus stones, the Mage/Tower/Lord were already some of the worst options, and are now 20% weaker.

Also consider armor enchants, which is a little different because there’s no alternative stat that can be placed on armor enchants (always a max resource), but they are weaker and as a result the Infused armor trait is now 20% weaker. This is a shame because Infused was recently balanced with divines on large pieces for the first time in years. Infused really needs a buff to 30% enchant bonus on armor if armor enchant strength remains the same.

It even affects racial bonuses and balance. Breton and Redguard are significantly worse choices on PTS than on live, because their only damage stat is 2000 Magicka or Stamina, which is losing the 20% bonus. Technically Imperial and Bosmer would fall in that same category, with their 2000 primary resource becoming weaker, but these two races received other buffs to keep them relevant

KhajiitLivesMatter · February 2021

laksikus wrote: »

Im pretty sure the 20% were for base stats and dont include set stats.

nope 20% was everything

the1andonlyskwex · February 2021

Lephrel wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Lephrel wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Lephrel wrote: »

laksikus wrote: »

Im pretty sure the 20% were for base stats and dont include set stats.

@Sgrug
@laksikus
I have just tested this on live. Magicka bonuses are affected by a 1.34x multiplier (tested using magblade, crafty alfiq set). That's 6% from undaunted, 8% from siphoning and 20% from champion points. Feel free to double check.

Same gear (Bright throats and Spinners with mismatched monster sets), same food, same mundus my 810 template Sorc on PTS winds up with just about 2K more max magic than on live. The build also has 1200 more SD on PTS. The extra stats make up for most of the loss of the bigger buffs from CP 1.0 on regular abilities. The only thing that took a sizable nerf damage wise was my LA's which hit for about 20% less now.

@itscompton Zeni have increased every characters base stats, to offset the 20% stat loss. What they didn't do is buff all max resource sets, jewellery/armour traits and foods by an appropriate amount.
So even though you may have higher stats on the pts, max resource sets are still substantially weaker than they are on live. Without the 20% multiplier, those sets will become utterly useless. A 20% nerf is huge, and max resource sets weren't particularly strong to begin with.

After reading a few more of the posts I get what you're trying to say now. Making a move like replacing Bright Throats's with Caluurions loses a fair amount less Max Mag in CP 2.0 v 1.0 because of the way the boost works.

So I went on PTS and looked into how this affects a max stat vs proc build a bit more. If I leave all my other sets as is and swap Bright Throat for Caluurions I lose 4821 Max Mag (with Magelight on my bar) but gain 163 SD and 5% more crit chance.

For practical purposes I compared how this affects the damage of Soul Consuming Trap. Over the course of 10 seconds a build with Caluu does 16038 and BTB does 16596. This is 3.48% more. Caluurion's tooltip is 16472. So divide by 10 it gives an extra 1647 DPS. 1647 is 3.48% of 47327.
So if we take into account the 5% less crit chance this means for BTB to outperform Caluurions you need to be able to rock >48K DPS consistently for stretches of at least 11 seconds straight and uninterrupted, which I'd argue the majority of players can't do in PvE under the new system. Even after Battle Spirit that's still nearly 27K DPS and no one can sustain that much damage in PvP for more than a 1-2 second burst, and any 1 second burst will always be stronger if Caluurion's is included vs the extra raw stats. So again it wins hands down.

I should also point out that my Hardened Ward winds up being capped at just under 15K by my 24.8K health with either set and doesn't see any benefit at all from the extra Max Mag.

Conclusion: When the test is over and proc sets work again in Cyro they will rule PvP and will be the meta for everyone except for elite PvE DD's.

Hey thanks for testing this and posting your results in such detail, it's very helpful. It's not just damage proc sets that will dominate max resource sets though, anything that stacks spell/weapon damage or crit will be much stronger in comparison as well.

Well, except that crit is also getting a 20% nerf...

Gabriel_H · February 2021

I get the point, but don't seem to taking account of the Base increases or CP passives for each stat.

Base Stats have been increased by 4,000 for Stamina & Magicka and 7,000 for Health.

CP Passives add 1,000 Stamina & Magicka and 1,100 for Health.

So 5,000 Stamina is the equivelant of 25,000 at 20% before, which is more or less where Stamina was before.

There is also a CP Active that gives another 1,300, which takes the total increase to 6,300 or the equivelant of 31,500 at 20%.

Basically, claiming a 20% nerf is not accurate. While the changes will have an impact on set stats, my DD has 2k more health, 4k more magicka and 2k more Stamina than on Live. My tank is a similar strory.

As I said, I get the point, but I'm just not seeing anyting like the dramatic nerf claimed.

Gabriel_H · February 2021

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

You seem to not understand this discussion. This is not about your max stats, this is about relative power of stat set bonuses.

It doesn't matter how much magicka or spell damage you have (don't forget that magicka and SD is the same stat, conversion ratio 1:10,5), relative power of set bonuses have changed and 1096 magicka set bonus, which was already weaker than 129 SD on live, is now even more weaker relatively to 129 SD set bonus. This makes magicka oriented sets much less desired. And this is what we are discussing here.

By your grand scheme, if you were using magicka oriented sets such as Necropotence (which weren't even close to meta btw), you'll see a diminish in their power relatively to SD sets and you'll likely switch to some non-magicka set. This is causing exactly the opposite of what we want - diversity. By driving out non-meta sets they reinforce current meta even more.

Magicka and SD are not the same stat, magicka adds another component. They should not be bringing the same amount of power to the table.

the1andonlyskwex · February 2021

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I get the point, but don't seem to taking account of the Base increases or CP passives for each stat.

Base Stats have been increased by 4,000 for Stamina & Magicka and 7,000 for Health.

CP Passives add 1,000 Stamina & Magicka and 1,100 for Health.

So 5,000 Stamina is the equivelant of 25,000 at 20% before, which is more or less where Stamina was before.

There is also a CP Active that gives another 1,300, which takes the total increase to 6,300 or the equivelant of 31,500 at 20%.

Basically, claiming a 20% nerf is not accurate. While the changes will have an impact on set stats, my DD has 2k more health, 4k more magicka and 2k more Stamina than on Live. My tank is a similar strory.

As I said, I get the point, but I'm just not seeing anyting like the dramatic nerf claimed.

I'm not convinced you get the point at all. This isn't about total DPS, it's about balance between different gear bonuses.

Max resource gear is 20% weaker. Sure, you're getting (more than) 20% more total resources from the other sources, but everybody gets that buff, including people who were never using max resource gear. So, people in spell damage (or proc) gear get 20% more max mag (because their mag was already low) without losing any spell damage (or anything else), while people in max mag gear basically stay where they are (because all of their max resource gear is getting nerfed, counteracting the base resource gains).

remosito · February 2021

hopefully sooner or later somebody at zos will realize this 20% nix should be factored into their set standardisation formula and they will adjust stat worth in there accordingly.

virtus753 · February 2021

remosito wrote: »

hopefully sooner or later somebody at zos will realize this 20% nix should be factored into their set standardisation formula and they will adjust stat worth in there accordingly.

But remember that they have lowered their standards before (see the discussion on Iceheart), so just because they want to adhere to standards as a matter of policy doesn’t mean that those standards remain the same numerically over time.

honey_badger82 · February 2021

virtus753 wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

hopefully sooner or later somebody at zos will realize this 20% nix should be factored into their set standardisation formula and they will adjust stat worth in there accordingly.

But remember that they have lowered their standards before (see the discussion on Iceheart), so just because they want to adhere to standards as a matter of policy doesn’t mean that those standards remain the same numerically over time.

Iceheart has been nerfed again this patch due to the 10% crit chance loss. You have to do crit damage for a 20% chance to proc and now we will be doing crit damage less often unless heavily building for it.

Lephrel · March 2021

Only days away from launch. I'm genuinely scared now. Unless they fix it on Monday, the nerf will probably stay on live for at least 3 months.
On the plus side, dreugh wax prices will go down, since everyone will be deconning their necro, crafty alfiq etc.

honey_badger82 · March 2021

This is not getting fixed before 6.3 launch. 3 months is extremely optimistic, it will probably be more like 6 if they do indeed address it. I have a feeling the first 3 months they will be overly busy fixing everything else they are about to break. Also, it's not just max resource sets that need to be fixed, 95% of all sets in the game are just clearly good for putting on a character as you are leveling them up to 50 unless you have a crafter to make you training gear.

I understand its impossible to balance the 5 million+ sets we have in the game to be within parity of each other... however they could be made so that all are some sort of viable. That alone would increase the number of workable builds significantly. Personally I would be more likely to use a 85-90% optimal set or two if it fit my playstyle or build I was going for over the clear 100% optimal sets. No one wants to use the current 60-70% optimal sets that make up the vast majority of them.

Lephrel · March 2021

@honey_badger82 Well, since all sets are supposed to be standardised, it should be really easy to balance all the max resource sets and bring them back in line. But ye, knowing Zeni, 6 months is a more realistic estimate for the fix.^^

AMeanOne · March 2021

6 months? You guys are quite optimistic