Araneae6537 wrote: »

The changes to stamina cost for dodge roll, sprint speed and stealth all make sense to me and have long been a part of other RPGs. However I don’t see the rationale for taking increased damage from magicka. At worst all armor weights should provide the same protection against magicka attacks. 🤔

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I am certain that most people agree that heavy armor was only buffed, both directly and indirectly and that it became only more favorable to choose.
I agree that medium armor looks more attractive than ever though.

Dracane wrote: »

most people agree that heavy armor was only buffed, both directly and indirectly

Dracane wrote: »

heavy armor was only buffed

...What?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Heavy Armor Penalties
  • Increases your damage taken from Magical attacks by 1% per piece worn
  • Reduces the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 1% per piece worn
  • Increases the cost of Roll Dodge by 3% per piece worn
  • Increases the size of your detection area while Sneaking by 10% per piece worn (making you easier to detect)

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Heavy Armor
  • Rapid Mending: This passive now increases your Healing Taken by 1% for every 2/1 pieces of Heavy Armor worn, rather than 4/8% when wearing 5 pieces or more.
  • Resolve: Decreased the amount of Armor granted per piece of Heavy Armor worn to 114/229/343, down from 121/142/363.
  • Revitalize: This passive now increases the resources restored from your fully-charged Heavy Attacks by 2/4% per piece of Heavy Armor worn, rather than 12/25% when wearing 5 pieces or more.

These are straight nerfs. Heavy armor was not "only buffed" as you say, and I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion. The penalties speak for themselves. Rapid Mending even at 7 pieces went from 8% to 7%, at 5/1/1 it's only 5%. Resolve gives less armor. Revitalize is nerfed for 5/1/1 and 6/1 heavy armor. Either you misread the changes, didn't bother to read them at all, or are constructing a narrative against Heavy armor. Either way, it's clear there are individuals on the forums clamoring for further nerfs to tanks who will never be content so long as heavy armor and the tank playstyle even exist in the game. This PTS patch cycle has seen a slow and steady erosion of passive benefits for tanks alongside nerfs to their sustain, mobility, and durability. Meanwhile, Medium armor gets a free pass with absolutely zero penalties whatsoever, and stamina already comprises the majority of builds in PvP; why are tanking passives like block cost and aoe damage reduction being thrown on Medium armor when it already has damage boosting passives? Shor's bones, Heavy armor now INCREASES the amount of magic damage you take, I should never feel like equipping more armor is making my character weaker in a game. And the last PTS 6.3.3 just nerfed Heavy armor AGAIN; how much are people willing to bet there will be another nerf to it on PTS 6.3.4? Taking offers.

Playstyle matters. Heavy is now more required than ever in PvP, while people using heavy in PvE are getting screwed over royally. It's as if the devs targeted the wrong group of players.

• PvP has a major heavy/stam meta. 90% of incoming damage in PvP is from people with SnB/2H, so giving a buff to the physical resist is making heavy more attractive in PvP. This also includes some of the favorite proc sets like Crimson, since that's bleed damage so it's countered by physical.
• PvP spends a lot of time trying to CC/be CC'd, so most will be CC immune due to recent break frees or immo pots. Heavy gives an extra 14 7% damage reduction in that case.
• Avoidance techniques in PvP are usually from things like bunny hopping or moving behind environment while casting, so there isn't a lot of roll dodging/sprinting.
• The biggest nerf that would affect PvP is the detection radius, but who cares about sneaking if you can stand up to whatever's being thrown at you.

Meanwhile, in PvE

• Most people (DPS/healer) play in light/medium, so the tank really needs to have the resistances to hold bosses since the other group members can't take the hits.
• Magical incoming damage is very common in dungeons/trials, so tanks need to be able to stand up to that. They just got reduced resistances.
• A lot of oneshots or go-through-block mechanics like the vCR gryphons unblockable bleeds, which require dodge rolls. Tanks won't be able to avoid damage as much with higher roll cost, and they now have less resistance on top of that.
• There aren't many PvE bosses that throw out CC, and people don't spend much time CC immune since we usually use tripots in PvE. That means the bonus resistances from being immune are irrelevant for PvE.
• Tanks depend on a lot of resource management unless there's a good healer around to give them resources back, so the passives getting nerfed hurts a lot more as well.
• The movement speed is a problem if a tank is supposed to lead the group, but you've got a lot of unhindered DPS who are impatient and pull early...

As a PvE tank, I can totally get some of the nerfs. I even don't mind the speed nerf and I'd take the roll dodge nerf if they nerfed some of the mechanics in dungeons/trials so a 7-heavy tank could just take the hit. I do not agree with the damage increase from mag sources. This is just making tanking that much harder, especially for newer/lower CP players.

If they swapped the meg penalty debuff to medium and gave heavy the block reduction instead, that'd honestly be fine to mostly fix PvE without affecting PvP. If their goal was to encourage non-heavy builds in PvP, a penalty of crit resist or damage done would be fine without affecting PvE. As it is now, heavy is only mopre required in PvP, but it was never good for PvE characters outside of tanks and just only got way worse.

I get that they want to encourage hybrid or 3/2/2 builds or whatever, but none of that changes the fact that PvE tanks use sets like Ebon or Yolnakriin, which only drop in heavy. It's tough to get a setup for a tank that's not at least 5 heavy that's not crippling your group buffs.

And yet, the devs have stayed silent on this. They've fiddled with the CP system and the new dungeons every patch, but this is the first change to the armor system and it was really minor. I'm actually wondering if they're going to be making the new armor sets with this in mind, e.g. the Q2 trial will end up giving us a light tank set (to help tanks resist incoming mag damage) and a heavy MagDPS set (to encourage mag use in PvP). I know the new dungeons are still favoring the standard light = mag, med = stam, heavy = tank style, but the armor changes really make it feel like they don't want tanks in heavy anymore.

ThreeFacedLiar wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Irfind wrote: »

Scolopendra wrote: »

Are we really allowed to play any content we want with any kind of character? Because right now, it really doesn't feel that way.

You can play it with any character just not with any armor... so you need a sneak armor - medium.

People take this "play as you want" statement too far IMO. Of course you can't play a sneeky tank 😂 the build diversity in this game is actually incredible, but they have to balance it to some degree... You also can't tank a trial in a dress...

There's a massive difference between trying to tank a trial, which is 12 man content and requires certain setups to perform effectively, and sneaking, a core mechanic that is featured prominently in two entire skill lines as well as several zones in the base game. There are multiple quests, such as the Morag Tong and story quests in Vvardenfell, that require infiltrating areas with guards. Heavy armor users have no choice but to simply respec or wear different armor in order to play through the base game; 70% increased detection radius is just ridiculous. And my complaint regarding the changes should probably have considered how Light armor was also ran over by a bus; they take increased physical damage on top of their other drawbacks, while also having the least armor in the game. The nerfs to Heavy and Light armor go beyond simple balance changes and actually impact the fluidity and enjoyment of the game; reduced movement speed, increased detection radius, etc, all these are relatively inconsequential in terms of balancing Heavy for PvP but make actually wearing it feel miserable.

You know, that's still doesn't make sense to play through content that involves sneaking, with heavy armor.

It is a fantasy game, taking real world considerations into account is nice up to a point. But if an armor type is hindering basic questing, that is a problem.

Firstmep wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

ThreeFacedLiar wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Irfind wrote: »

Scolopendra wrote: »

Are we really allowed to play any content we want with any kind of character? Because right now, it really doesn't feel that way.

You can play it with any character just not with any armor... so you need a sneak armor - medium.

People take this "play as you want" statement too far IMO. Of course you can't play a sneeky tank 😂 the build diversity in this game is actually incredible, but they have to balance it to some degree... You also can't tank a trial in a dress...

There's a massive difference between trying to tank a trial, which is 12 man content and requires certain setups to perform effectively, and sneaking, a core mechanic that is featured prominently in two entire skill lines as well as several zones in the base game. There are multiple quests, such as the Morag Tong and story quests in Vvardenfell, that require infiltrating areas with guards. Heavy armor users have no choice but to simply respec or wear different armor in order to play through the base game; 70% increased detection radius is just ridiculous. And my complaint regarding the changes should probably have considered how Light armor was also ran over by a bus; they take increased physical damage on top of their other drawbacks, while also having the least armor in the game. The nerfs to Heavy and Light armor go beyond simple balance changes and actually impact the fluidity and enjoyment of the game; reduced movement speed, increased detection radius, etc, all these are relatively inconsequential in terms of balancing Heavy for PvP but make actually wearing it feel miserable.

You know, that's still doesn't make sense to play through content that involves sneaking, with heavy armor.

It is a fantasy game, taking real world considerations into account is nice up to a point. But if an armor type is hindering basic questing, that is a problem.

Fantasy games usually bring some measure of realism into their midst.
Otherwise we would all be flying gods of infinite power, cuz you know, it's fantasy.
Eso is no different, yes we have dragons and spell, bit wearing plate armor still makes sneaking more difficult, due to the sound clanking metal makes.

Dragonredux wrote: »

It is a fantasy game, taking real world considerations into account is nice up to a point. But if an armor type is hindering basic questing, that is a problem.

I get you but I feel logic has to still be applied somewhat. It'll be a different story if we had the Muffle spell from Skyrim or something. You can really can't expect someone to not hear you clanking up behind them. I hate to be that guy but is it really so hard to change equipment in a RPG when you go on stealth quests.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Anyone that PVP's at a high level knows that almost anyone that's not a ganker or mag sorc is probably wearing heavy armor if they are serious about PVP. There are some exceptions to this, but in general heavy armor dominates the highest level of pvp.

In my view, as long as the principal objective in Cyro is knocking down walls and doors and flipping flags, Heavy will always be the most popular choice there. This is one reason why I'm very much opposed to nerfing damage output in Heavy. It's just going to slow things down.

Another view is, so what? Only 2/12 players in "high level" PvE groups wear Heavy, so there's the balance.

Yeah thats the reason I dont want to see a damage reduction either. 3% move speed reduction per piece of heavy would be enough IMO. Youre a juggernaut but slow as hell.

I can already imagine everyone in the group having to wait for the tank as he slowly inches his way to the objective.

I feel many of the proposed changes to bring Heavy in line don't consider how the changes will affect tanking in ALL areas of the game.

Tanks still need to lead from the front, as well as move out of the red. The increased dodge cost is bad enough. Adding further movement speed debuffs on top of that is overkill. Tanks also still need to kill things in PvE outside of group content, so a nerf to damage is untenable.

As someone earlier proposed, adding the various armor distinctions as buffs rather than as nerfs would have been a much wiser course (e.g. don't nerf Heavy Armor movement speed but rather have Light Armor buff movement speed instead).

That way, nobody would "lose" anything but different armors would still have clearly defined strengths.

Dragonredux wrote: »

It is a fantasy game, taking real world considerations into account is nice up to a point. But if an armor type is hindering basic questing, that is a problem.

I get you but I feel logic has to still be applied somewhat. It'll be a different story if we had the Muffle spell from Skyrim or something. You can really can't expect someone to not hear you clanking up behind them. I hate to be that guy but is it really so hard to change equipment in a RPG when you go on stealth quests.

Arcanasx wrote: »

Heavy armor already has a damage "penalty"; by lacking any passives that boost your damage while both light and medium armor do. Instead of adding some silly damage penalty to heavy armor they could simply increase the offensive passives that light and medium armor provide. OR, we could acknowledge the elephant in the room which is overperforming proc sets and make adjustments accordingly, especially the proc dot sets. It really isn't that hard to figure out why many are drawn to heavy armor these days and that's because of the way proc sets work; most of them not only synergize with heavy armor the most but also because these proc dot sets are doing so much easy autopilot, overly oppressive damage that people feel the need to be in heavy just to survive long enough to feel functional.

For anyone who's been in cyro during the procless test, I think many of us would agree that the most common specs playing during this test are magsorcs (using light armor) and stamblades (using medium armor). This idea of adding a damage penalty to heavy armor is like trying to treat the symptoms of a disease rather than actually focusing on curing the disease; which is the incredibly oppressive proc dot sets currently plaguing the meta, and how they also interact with malacath.

honey_badger82 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Never mind about that @xaraan , I think you missed my point but it wasn't important.

Is it fair for me to say that you believe a strict Tank-DD-Healer trinity must be imposed on PvP in order for PvP and PvE to be balanced together?

I don't know if I'd phrase it that way, but it might work. I'd speak more to balance, what you add in tankiness or healing you should lose in damage output. This works a little in healing. You can be moderately self sufficient healing wise but what you give up in cooldowns/bar spaces to run your own heals can take away from your damage output. And if you add a healer to your group that is totally dedicated to healing it can be a significant factor in how strong your pvp group is, but size of the group is a factor. Two people, one healer and DD fighting two equally skilled DDs will lose most of the time. But a group of 8 v 8 with a dedicated healer, the healers group has the advantage IMO.

Heavy is a different story however. Pure tanks are often more nuisance than a major factor in group power unless the tank is very good at building something useful for pvp needs in addition to just being tanky. But, with current meta you don't have to do that, you can just wear heavy, be tanky enough even if not super tank and with proc sets, malacath boosting non crit damage, etc and damage not being about long term sustained output and more about burst, it allows you do run heavy and still output considerable damage. (You don't give up as much damage as you should for the defensiveness you pick up).

The changes they are proposing actually make heavy armor less tanky in some ways, which defeats the purpose of wearing heavy IMO and it also doesn't address the problem of damage output in heavy, which is the real problem. In fact, in regards to light armor wearers it makes damage actually worse toward them (and dizzy swing spamming heavy bois are already the bane of pvp, especially vs. LA wearers before bonus damage). And worst of all, some of the changes hamper just being a pure tank in pvp or regular tank in pve, which should not be an issue if that is your goal. The problem of heavy pvp is and always has been outputting enough damage to be a DD while being tanky. For years they've tried to fix this making heavy less and less tanky to the detriment of being a real tank, especially in pve (I can remember one patch since Morrowind out of the four patches each year that had good changes to being a tank instead of negative ones - that's 16+ patches now).

If you had a 4% damage penalty for each piece of heavy, you'd have 28% maim in all 7 heavy, 20% maim in 5+whatever combo. It would have little to no effect in PvE (folks doing questing in heavy really should throw on medium or light and come up with a quick questing build, but that's been talked about in tanking threads elsewhere). And in PvP it would allow for a player to build a true tank (some enjoy that sort of playstyle in pvp and are good at finding non damage ways to contribute to fights). If you wanted to try and do ok damage, then you have malacath to essentially cancel out your armor maim. So now when you give up crit to run heavy, malacath isn't making up for the crit and leaving you fairly even but with bonus tankiness, you still actually have to give up damage to run heavy.

So "strict" tank/healer/dd balance in pvp -- maybe strict isn't the right word. But balanced. And it's not now and not in zos' proposed armor changes.

The current changes have some significant impact in PvE for tanking. The role is already, by far, the hardest to fill for a group, especially trials. And this makes the job even less enjoyable. You also do not have the choice of not running heavy due to some sets dropping in only heavy (not too many crafted tanking meta sets out there). The dodge rolling changes are a killer with the amount of one shots and bleeds that have been added to new dungeons and trials that have to be dodged now, and they will only impact a very small segment of pvp builds as heavy rolly pollys aren't the biggest factor in heavy pvp builds. The movement effects could have a small impact on pvp as movement in pvp is strong, but it also creates more frustration in pve as tanks already often race from pull to pull to keep up with DDs and have no stam for tanking when they arrive - that will get worse. Next patch, if you are a heavy dizzy swing spammer piling on a light armor wearer, you actually get more powerful as you don't usually depend on the negative changes, but will benefit from doing additional damage.

That's not even counting the fact that light armor already takes more damage from all sources. That's what having 10K resist vs 30K resist means zos!

Also, if you take 5% bonus damage from me in light and I take 5% bonus damage from you in heavy, you benefit more from that. Because your 30K mit will drop that number the bonus is based off of down more than my 10K resist will drop yours. So the whole bonus damage thing makes no sense when armor weights already give protection values of differing amounts.

What the armor changes should be:

Scrap the bonus damage on any armor weight.

Add a little crit resistance to medium armor to give them a little more pvp combat benefit to make up for the of the RP like sneaking bonuses that don't translate the same way to pvp as they do pve.

Add like 4% maim per piece of heavy armor and scrap the other negatives (maybe keep the movement and sneak penalties).

I surely hope you mean 4% maim per piece of heavy being a Battle Spirit adjustment and not attached to the armor itself. If its attached to the armor then the 5/1/1 paradigm is dead for sure and heavy armor for PvE gets more nerfed than it is should we follow your logic.

Also to simplify what it sounds like you are saying... A sword in the hands of someone wearing medium armor is a truly lethal weapon indeed however that very same sword in the hands of someone wearing plate armor is now relegated to only being effective as a letter opener?
Someone might want to go back in time and tell English knights that wearing plate armor is a bad idea because it means they will be unable to kill the kilt wearing Scots.

honey_badger82 wrote: »

Integral1900 wrote: »

Firstly a question. Why is it that whenever game developers, and indeed many players, think of heavy armour, they always seem to have the utterly inaccurate load of nonsense that Hollywood portrays in mind. Historically speaking, as well as in any plausible fantasy society, warriors will be trained to get used to wearing heavy armour from a young age. Hence the reason that knights started the training very young.

It is to encourage the body at the peak of its adaptability, to grow into the role. The same way that when you find mediaeval skeletons you can tell if they trained to use a longbow. Therefore you will end up with someone at the end of the process who is not only bigger and heavier than most of the counterparts but vastly stronger as well, with the stamina of a donkey. Knights in armour may look small to modern eyes, but too the people of the time a knight out of his armour would’ve been an intimidating site even without his rank in society. Certainly something you wouldn’t want to pick a fight with no matter how drunk you were.

The truth is that if armour were to drastically slow the warrior down relative to the rest of the army then it becomes impractical. All armour, regardless of its weight, will slow someone down. But to say that simply wearing a suit of heavy armour will make you move with all the elegant nimbleness of a fridge is simply not true. There are plenty of examples of training methods that would expect an armoured warrior to be able to perform handstands, forward roles and to run flat out for a minimum of 500 m.

It’s like people see this nonsense in films and actually believe it! There was a reason why the best troops in most armies are given heavy armour, it does not substantially slow them down and they are worth protecting. You give medium armour to the mid range junk that makes up the rest of the army. A.k.a., the cannon fodder!

This update literally kills my preferred play style. It’s like someone had a list saying you will be either a tank, a damag dealer, or a healer. No other options will be tolerated. If you want to be even below average at anything you have to specify into it!

This isn’t increasing choice, it’s getting rid of it. We’re all going to have to follow the meta around like a bunch of bored looking dogs. Not looking forward to when this nonsense goes live in the slightest. As usual the half dozen people willing to put up with a train wreck of PVP in this game have managed to ruin it for everybody else!

5-1-1 is over. Two of those pieces will now do nothing but cancel each other out.

Also, while I think about it. There was a statement made by the developers that their in-house testing group had run all the content in the game without any champion points enabled. Thus proving it is all still doable. I would like to point out at this juncture, that such a comparison between players of that level and the rest of us mere mortals is not relevant. If you have a skill level so high that you can take out any of the Veteran hard mode content in this game without any champion points then your skill level is so far ahead of the rest of us that it simply isn’t worth using as a comparison. It would be like comparing someone armed with a small pistol standing in a dinghy, to a fully armed battleship!

I totally agree with all of your points. In fact there are youtubers out there who have shown how nimble you can be in full plate armor to include rolling. Some of the latest sets of armor was only around 70-80lbs in weight distributed across the whole body. The Roman's trained with swords, shields and javelins that weighed twice as much as their combat weapons.

Even our modern soldiers can move long distance in heavy equipment and be very mobile. As a retired combat arms Soldier who deployed to many battlefields in the middle east I can attest to this. While training for my last deployment to a 5 letter country that begins with S and ends in A; I would run up to 5 miles in about 40 minutes while wearing my uniform, boots and 45lbs body armor in which the weight was mostly distributed to the shoulders and upper body. When I was done with the run I still had the energy and stamina to fight.

In short no damage bonuses to heavy armor in this game is penalty enough. [snip] deal with the proc sets that are the real problem not the armor weight that isn't really the problem.

[Edited to remove Baiting]