Can we hardcore nerf 2-hand executioner already?

TwinLamps · February 2021

Ryuvain wrote: »

Like 90% of stam players are using this in PvP. It's seriously getting old. It's been the top pvp weapon for the longest.

its like saying let's nerf destro staves cause all magicka users use them

Pink_E_808 · February 2021

Nearly half the time I use it, nothing even happens. Then I end up spamming it unintentionally 🤦🏼‍♀️

ketsparrowhawk · February 2021

Have you tried staying out of execute range?

Ryuvain · February 2021

Sinolai wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Pauwer wrote: »

It just shows ridiculous numbers when someone hits you with it when you have like 4% life left. It doesn't do that much damage really in other situations. At least so it is for me. I just yesterday had like 10 players spamming execute on me, only the last hit had those big numbers, others 1-2k.

Must be nice. Im getting hit for 5-8k with 5 pc gold impen gear.

Might be malacath's ring. Impen does nothing against that.

Malacath is meta right along with 2-hander. No reducing that damage.

PrimusNephilim · February 2021

Sleep724 wrote: »

Give classes their own mag and stam execute and this wouldn’t be an issue.

^^^^ This right here, no more nerfs

Xarc · February 2021

two handed - Executionner: starting at 50% health, single target; for 2160 stam cost, (5 meters), +400% dmg
Dual wield - whirling blades : starting at 50% health, aoe, 3510 stamina cost. (6 meters), +100% dmg
bow - poison injection : starting at 50% health, single target, 2700 stamina cost, +100% dmg
nightblade - killer's blade - starting at -25% health, single target, 2066 stamina cost (5 meters), +300% dmg

Executionner is the best in term of cost/dmg

SimonBelmont · February 2021

TwinLamps wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Like 90% of stam players are using this in PvP. It's seriously getting old. It's been the top pvp weapon for the longest.

its like saying let's nerf destro staves cause all magicka users use them

I agree that Magicka needs nerfs.

SimonBelmont · February 2021

Ryuvain wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Pauwer wrote: »

It just shows ridiculous numbers when someone hits you with it when you have like 4% life left. It doesn't do that much damage really in other situations. At least so it is for me. I just yesterday had like 10 players spamming execute on me, only the last hit had those big numbers, others 1-2k.

Must be nice. Im getting hit for 5-8k with 5 pc gold impen gear.

Might be malacath's ring. Impen does nothing against that.

Malacath is meta right along with 2-hander. No reducing that damage.

Except by resistances, and damage shields, and pretty much anything else that would help you resist any other form of damage...(?) 0.o

Pencisl2 · February 2021

Pink_E_808 wrote: »

Nearly half the time I use it, nothing even happens. Then I end up spamming it unintentionally 🤦🏼‍♀️

I think it has a sort of a cast time and you need to be looking right at the target.

spartaxoxo · February 2021

TwinLamps wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Like 90% of stam players are using this in PvP. It's seriously getting old. It's been the top pvp weapon for the longest.

its like saying let's nerf destro staves cause all magicka users use them

A weapon line that is the only choice available is not comparable to a single skill with competing choices. So no, not at all.

Pencisl2 · February 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

TwinLamps wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Like 90% of stam players are using this in PvP. It's seriously getting old. It's been the top pvp weapon for the longest.

its like saying let's nerf destro staves cause all magicka users use them

A weapon line that is the only choice available is not comparable to a single skill with competing choices. So no, not at all.

There really isn't a competing choice, at least for ease of use and within the strongest weapon choice.

FangOfTheTwoMoons · February 2021

Vlad9425 wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Pauwer wrote: »

It just shows ridiculous numbers when someone hits you with it when you have like 4% life left. It doesn't do that much damage really in other situations. At least so it is for me. I just yesterday had like 10 players spamming execute on me, only the last hit had those big numbers, others 1-2k.

Must be nice. Im getting hit for 5-8k with 5 pc gold impen gear.

As you should be? If you’re low health the ability is meant to hit you hard, that’s why it’s called an execute...

Nowhere in that did i say i was low health. Reading comprehension...

Low health has been 10k plus.

There’s something far wrong with your build if you’re getting hit that hard by an execute when you’re high health. Either that or you’re giving false information here.

Lmao guess that backfired on them. You're 100% right tho. Executioner shouldn't be dealing that much damage unless you're at low health. Theres so much wrong with what they said. Why would someone be using Executioner when their target is above the threshold? Why would you be taking so much damage above the threshold? There has to be something else going on.

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Pauwer wrote: »

It just shows ridiculous numbers when someone hits you with it when you have like 4% life left. It doesn't do that much damage really in other situations. At least so it is for me. I just yesterday had like 10 players spamming execute on me, only the last hit had those big numbers, others 1-2k.

Must be nice. Im getting hit for 5-8k with 5 pc gold impen gear.

Are you blocking? Shields up? What is your physical resistance? Are you wearing light armor?

Re quoting this since it looks like you forgot to answer this Thorian.

Nord_Raseri · February 2021

Xarc wrote: »

two handed - Executionner: starting at 50% health, single target; for 2160 stam cost, (5 meters), +400% dmg

Except that 400% Isn't a thing at 50% health. Probably closer to 5-10% Health.

Tberg725 · February 2021

Waiting for a thread to come titled can people stop crying for nerfs I mean holy crap if they nerfed all the things people come on here and cry about we would literally be running around cyro naked with no weapons just punching each other spamming R2 the whole time and still someone would come here saying “OMG THIS IS TRASH PEOPLE JUST SPAMMING THE SAME THING” lol how about asking for help on how to counter the problem or make some changes......

When I run into someone who spams execute just block a little bit roll dodge and they literally run out of resources then easy kill it’s really not that complicated the toxicness of people who scream for nerfs is ridiculous

RPGplayer13579 · February 2021

It only has a range of 5 meters. A good rule to live by. Unless you are a heavy armor tank, stay away from the player with a two handed weapon. Find the high ground and shoot them with a bow, a staff, a class or guild ranged attack.

spartaxoxo · February 2021

Pencisl2 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

TwinLamps wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Like 90% of stam players are using this in PvP. It's seriously getting old. It's been the top pvp weapon for the longest.

its like saying let's nerf destro staves cause all magicka users use them

A weapon line that is the only choice available is not comparable to a single skill with competing choices. So no, not at all.

There really isn't a competing choice, at least for ease of use and within the strongest weapon choice.

There is. There shouldn't be a straight strongest weapon choice when stam users have 3 weapon lines. Most use bow on backbar, so let's set that aside. That still leaves dual wield. Executioner and 2 handed shouldn't be straight superior to dual wield. Stamblade also has it's own class execute that should be competitive for that class.

That Executioner is just flat out better means that either those should be buffed or it should be nerfed.

Hexys · February 2021

Enjoy next patch

Chilly-McFreeze · February 2021

Xarc wrote: »

two handed - Executionner: starting at 50% health, single target; for 2160 stam cost, (5 meters), +400% dmg
Dual wield - whirling blades : starting at 50% health, aoe, 3510 stamina cost. (6 meters), +100% dmg
bow - poison injection : starting at 50% health, single target, 2700 stamina cost, +100% dmg
nightblade - killer's blade - starting at -25% health, single target, 2066 stamina cost (5 meters), +300% dmg

Executionner is the best in term of cost/dmg

You left so much out of the picture that it isn't even worth a comment. However, just to nudge you in the right direction:

What are the base damage tooltips of each?
Do skill line passives add additional multipliers? *couch* Slaughter *Couch*
How many Executioners do I have to cast to hit the maximum number of targets I can hit with one cast of Whirling Blades?

TwinLamps · February 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

TwinLamps wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Like 90% of stam players are using this in PvP. It's seriously getting old. It's been the top pvp weapon for the longest.

its like saying let's nerf destro staves cause all magicka users use them

A weapon line that is the only choice available is not comparable to a single skill with competing choices. So no, not at all.

Yeah, unlike poor magicka we have like 2 choices
WOW

Vetixio · February 2021

red_emu wrote: »

This skill is bread and butter for stamina players. Without it, everyone would play magsorc. The scaling is needed as stamina set up generally doesn't hit as hard as mag abilities.

Is that a joke lol. Stam hits way harder than mag, has cheaper skills more survivability and movement and better if not on par healing as mag also. Executioner and 2H skills such as Dizzy and Rally are all a little overtuned and do too much for 1 skill (much like werewolf skills do too).

notyuu · February 2021

Xarc wrote: »

two handed - Executionner: starting at 50% health, single target; for 2160 stam cost, (5 meters), +400% dmg
Dual wield - whirling blades : starting at 50% health, aoe, 3510 stamina cost. (6 meters), +100% dmg
bow - poison injection : starting at 50% health, single target, 2700 stamina cost, +100% dmg
nightblade - killer's blade - starting at -25% health, single target, 2066 stamina cost (5 meters), +300% dmg

Executionner is the best in term of cost/dmg

Excutioner: requires target, can be dodged, ramps up to 400%
whriling blades: 360 aoe, no target required
poison injection: ranged, applied a dot that gets the bonus damage
killers blade: it jumps instantly to 300% vs targets below 25% hp

RottingAlien · February 2021

Yeah, can we get rid of mages wrath too while we're at it?
Oh and subterranean assault, thanks.
Oh and why not meteor and Dawnbreaker

In case you didn't notice I was joking, my answer is no.
as others have said, really high numbers is when you are a light attack away from death anyway. just because a lot of people use it or just because you keep dying to it doesn't mean if should be "hardcore nerfed".

HanStolo · February 2021

The range on two hand is stupid large. I'd be down with shortening the range a bit. It pretty non-realistic.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2021

Here is the issue, almost nothing ever needs "Hardcore Nerfed" in this game. This game is far more balanced then most people care to admit.

It doesnt mean that nothing ever needs a nerf. People will say, "dont nerf, buff what is under performing", but that approach in isolation leads to massive power creep. Nerfing can absolutely be an appropriate tool for good balance.

There are pretty compelling arguments that this skill is modestly overperforming. Stamina is generally stronger than magic, and most stamina uses 2h. Really all you need to know to suggest that a modest adjustment might be in order. Rather than call for a massive nerf, perhaps suggest a meaningful way to bring the balance in line.

I have often thought that executes should do their job, hit like a truck at low health, but perhaps penalize you in some way if they are cast outside of execute range for example (perhaps above 50% health the cost increases). This would prevent mindless execute spam. Maybe suggest that this particular execute should scale at a lower health threshold to be inline with some others. Again, just examples.

We have all been run over by a pack of stamdens spamming Dizzy and Executioner, but I dont think that this skill is specifically the issue. Sure I have seen big ticks on my death recap, but pretty sure I was dead anyway. When I die to executioner, I am almost always outnumbered. One guy is working to bring my health down, and one guy is spamming executioner hoping one hits at just the right time.

spartaxoxo · February 2021

TwinLamps wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

TwinLamps wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Like 90% of stam players are using this in PvP. It's seriously getting old. It's been the top pvp weapon for the longest.

its like saying let's nerf destro staves cause all magicka users use them

A weapon line that is the only choice available is not comparable to a single skill with competing choices. So no, not at all.

Yeah, unlike poor magicka we have like 2 choices
WOW

It is actually a massive difference in terms of balance for even once choice to open up, in terms of share of the pie an ability should have.

If things are perfectly balanced and player taste is equally distributed among all three....

One choice means 100% of the people should be using it.

Two choice means 50% of the people should want to use either choice.

Add a third choice and you're now looking at 33% of the people using any of the choices.

And so on and so forth.

So no, saying "that Executioner should be nerfed (or Dual Wield buffed) because nearly every stam user is using Executioner, is the same as saying that Destro staffs should be nerfed because every magicka character use magicka" is actually a significant false equivalency.

Executioner vs Whirling Blades should be closer to 50/50. If Executioner is indeed have like say 80% adoption rate it is clearly overperfoming compared to the other choice(s). That doesn't necessarily mean Executioner needs a nerf. The reason for the imbalance could lie elsewhere, for example maybe the dual wield choice is too weak. Or maybe some other skill in 2H line is so valuable than it makes DW line not a great choice, so that skill is the real culprit. And people are slotting 2H for this other skill, which narrows their choice in executes to one, Executioner.

I don't know why it's the case. Nevertheless, there is clearly an imbalance somewhere.

RottingAlien · February 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

TwinLamps wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

TwinLamps wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Like 90% of stam players are using this in PvP. It's seriously getting old. It's been the top pvp weapon for the longest.

its like saying let's nerf destro staves cause all magicka users use them

A weapon line that is the only choice available is not comparable to a single skill with competing choices. So no, not at all.

Yeah, unlike poor magicka we have like 2 choices
WOW

It is actually a massive difference in terms of balance for even once choice to open up, in terms of share of the pie an ability should have.

If things are perfectly balanced and player taste is equally distributed among all three....

One choice means 100% of the people should be using it.

Two choice means 50% of the people should want to use either choice.

Add a third choice and you're now looking at 33% of the people using any of the choices.

And so on and so forth.

So no, saying "that Executioner should be nerfed (or Dual Wield buffed) because nearly every stam user is using Executioner, is the same as saying that Destro staffs should be nerfed because every magicka character use magicka" is actually a significant false equivalency.

Executioner vs Whirling Blades should be closer to 50/50. If Executioner is indeed have like say 80% adoption rate it is clearly overperfoming compared to the other choice(s). That doesn't necessarily mean Executioner needs a nerf. The reason for the imbalance could lie elsewhere, for example maybe the dual wield choice is too weak. Or maybe some other skill in 2H line is so valuable than it makes DW line not a great choice, so that skill is the real culprit. And people are slotting 2H for this other skill, which narrows their choice in executes to one, Executioner.

I don't know why it's the case. Nevertheless, there is clearly an imbalance somewhere.

I use 2h because I don't identify myself with dual-wielding playstyle, in any game. The reason I use 2h in PVP is definitely not because it's stronger. I use it because I identify with the 2h fight style. Kinda the same reason I rarely use a bow. But dual-wield is that playstyle I really don't do in any game. I never enjoyed the assassin/rogue type of gameplay.
Having that said, a weapon having a bigger adoption rate, doesn't mean it's necessarily overperforming. might be just because people enjoy that playstyle more. And of course, people will use the execute of that weapon if possible.

JayKwellen · February 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

If Executioner is indeed have like say 80% adoption rate it is clearly overperfoming compared to the other choice(s). That doesn't necessarily mean Executioner needs a nerf. The reason for the imbalance could lie elsewhere, for example maybe the dual wield choice is too weak. Or maybe some other skill in 2H line is so valuable than it makes DW line not a great choice, so that skill is the real culprit. And people are slotting 2H for this other skill, which narrows their choice in executes to one, Executioner.

@spartaxoxo The bolded part is the real answer, and the skill in question is Rally. That's the real reason 2H is so popular. The second reason is Dizzy Swing.

Rally is so important for stam classes because, other than warden and sorc, none of them have a class burst heal available to them. And other than warden and sorc, none of them have major brutality available to them (or if it is, it's attached to awful skills like molten weapons or power extraction). You know which classes are the only two to use dual wield in PvP? Warden and Sorc. Rally is also, on top of the burst heal and brutality, a source of minor endurance. Nobody has that, so to give up rally means to also sacrifice 20% stamina recovery. Rally is just too good and fills in too many holes from things missing from the various classes abilities for the majority of classes to do without it.

Dizzy swing comes next, and it's used for the same underlying reason - to fill in for something missing from a classes kit. DK's, sorcs, necros, and wardens do not have spammables. Yes, I know they actually do, but each one of those classes class stamina spammable is absolute garbage not worth even considering.

So why the popularity of executioner? Because the majority of classes already have to use 2H to be viable in PvP. And if you're going to run 2H, you're going to take the 2H execute that's available to you. I can guarantee you that if dual wield offered the same utility as 2H that you would see a much more even spread of people using whirling blades vs. executioner. But as it stands now, most stamina classes simply wouldn't exist without the 2H skill line, thus, everybody uses executioner.

spartaxoxo · February 2021

The bolded part is the real answer, and the skill in question is Rally. That's the real reason 2H is so popular. The second reason is Dizzy Swing.

@JayKwellen

A-Aron!

Ahem, that actually makes a lot of sense. Sounds to me like either dizzy needs to be nerfed or the other stam spammables buffed to bring those more in line, and that they need to add a new skill that's not part of the weapon lines that can compete with Rally.

If they did those two things maybe dual wield would be a better choice and we'd see more people being able to use it in PvP.

erio · February 2021

Or you could buff mag or dw to be competitive. Instead of actively making the game worse, ZOS should improve the other options.

itscompton · February 2021

hexentb16_ESO wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Like 90% of stam players are using this in PvP. It's seriously getting old. It's been the top pvp weapon for the longest.

I'd like 2h to be nerfed just so everyone stops using it in pvp all the time. Whenever I look at battles in Cyrodil on xbox EVERY stamina build has one! Dual-wield needs to be given some of the 2h abilities. Even just giving DW a forward momentum like ability would fix this problem.

I've got experience using every execute in the game and to me the only thing that makes Executioner seem so strong is that it has a very quick animation and therefore actually hits people when they are still at low health. I find that many of the other executes, and even regular abilities, will refuse to fire smoothly in rotation when an opponent gets to low health. At 10-15% it often seems abilities just refuse to fire when I push the button and then finally go off after the enemy heals out of execute range but I almost never have that issue with Executioner.

In my opinion what really sets 2H apart and makes it meta is having a high damage spammable that has a disabling effect tied to it. The change to having Dizzy set someone off-balance on the 1st hit then stunned on the 2nd gave it a bit more counter play but if the person spamming it has a faster character and knows how to play the positioning game it's still very hard to avoid getting hammered by it. The change actually made it even deadlier since it means you've taken that much more damage and are that much closer to, or further in, execute range if/when you do get stunned by it.
And of course having the only large burst heal available to most stam users is a pretty big part of making 2H meta.