Necromancer in this game is possibly THE worst interpretation of a necromancer across any medium I have ever witnessed. Even the Death Knights in WoW, which aren't necromancers, are better necromancers than the ESO ones.

Even the infamously bad necromancy magic line from Dragon Age Inquisition still manages to get the 'can summon spirits from fallen enemies' part right.

Meanwhile with ESO's necromancer they added in an entire corpse mechanic just for that class and didn't give them ANY SUMMONS that come from corpses or use bodies in an area. **Why**?

The fact that this class is split up into a 6 dps/6 tank/6 heal cookie cutter design without taking any thematic approaches to the skill lines except 'this deal damage, this tank, and this heal' is quite gross.

Also, the fact that they didn't make necromancer THE summoner class by giving them a variety of undead minions to temporarily call upon is also extremely horrid.

In the end, the class feels more like a destruction mage with a Halloween skin pack. Because, for some reason, they decided that necromancers should deal shock, fire, and lightning damage as their main source of damage instead of utilizing minions, debuffs, and bones to deal their stuff. A necromancer's main source of damage should be their minions. Period. Everything else after that should be to help said minions, debuff enemies, or deal a bit of damage with some life steal.

The worst part about necromancer's design isn't even all of this. It's that the normal, non-boss NPCs in the game can do things we as a class can't even dream of doing. We can't summon 1-2 melee undead to protect us. We can't summon a soul-draining shade. We can't buff our minions or even use the same CC and debuff abilities necromancers have.

They designed the class with a 'destruction mage' in mind without looking at what makes Necromancers.....well, necromancers in their own game. The irony is here pre-elsweyr they released Dragon Bones that featured Fang Lair. AN entire DLC showcasing necromancer NPCs.

Even in Elsweyr the basic necro NPCs are cooler than we are. They haphazardly threw some of the new necromancer skills into those NPCs to make it seem like we were the same class. But they forgot to remove the skills that we can't cast.

Lastly, the Collossus ultimate for necromancer was going to be able to summon a giant *** SKELETAL DRAGON that breathed necrotic energy in a cone in front of it then disappeared and they removed that for the stupid fat-guy chonker we have now.

You can actually see this skill's animation on the Orc Necromancer boss from the Elsweyr story and the Necromancer boss in Labrynthian in Greymoor.

It's genuinely one of the coolest skills in the entire game and I will forever be salty that we didn't get it.

Here's a link to what it looks like for those that say 'oh it was removed cause its too big'. No, it isn't. https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/h9rfhu/garneld_the_hollow_our_necromancers/

@WhereArtThouVampires

they removed the skeletal dragon because they didn't want all players running around summoning undead dragons. I agree with that design choice.

Well, only the fact that a necromancer in ESO has no permanent zombie/skeleton pets is a HUGE letdown. They should be permanent like sorcerer pets. It's ruins all the fun to summon a skeleton only to see it die few secs later. I mean, what kind of necromancer has no undead army following him? And from what I remember, every necromancer in TES had zombies that stayed permanently and didnt vanish after a while.

Magcro is not fun at all and looks very weak. I know there are players who do like 100k+ dps with them but that doesnt change the fact it has a weird rotation, not easy to master. With the same play-time, I do 80k on my magsorc but 60k on my magcro.

On the other hand, stamcro is very strong and in my first parses I reached 85k.

Another letdown in both, is the lack of brutality/savagery buff. I need to rely in potions and that costs gold.

Iccotak wrote: »

@WhereArtThouVampires

they removed the skeletal dragon because they didn't want all players running around summoning undead dragons. I agree with that design choice.

Temporarily summoning a thing that looks like a skeletal dragon for 3 seconds isn't the end of the world in terms of lore.

And no, that isn't why they got rid of it. They got rid of it because initially they had model issues and were afraid of it cluttering small spaces. It used to be a lot bigger in development more than likely.

We already walk around with mini skeletal dragons anyways. How do they spin this? It's simply necrotic energy using bones to give it a shape of a dragon. The same exact thing could have been done for the ultimate and you know this.

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

My thoughts is that they made them way too cliché and "Hollywood spoopy" looking. Seriously, what's up with the blue-green lights, flying skulls, scythes, graveyard/tombstones and other weird things. That has never been necromancers in Elder Scrolls. Where is the flies, the rotting flesh, zombies, and other grisliness? Necromancy in TES is supposed to look gross, not "spoopy" (I'm also saying spoopy, because there's nothing spooky about it.)

Exactly. It is a destruction mage who decided to purchase the over-the-top Halloween Visual Effects pack.

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Meanwhile if my story narrative spins me as a summoner of the undead yet I can't even raise a simple melee warrior skeleton or zombie, hopefully you can see how traditional necromancer fans are kinda being put into the dirt here? As someone who is also storyteller and focuses highly on narrative; if I don't fit into the world's classification of what a necromancer is by being completely different than even the Novice Necromancer NPCs, how am I able to get in the mood to tell a proper story with my character?

You just have to work within the limits of the game system you're using. Sometimes, certain character concepts don't really work in a given game system. I tend to view that as a challenge to overcome or an opportunity to be creative and do something a little bit different. Still, issues like this are why I prefer classless systems in RPGs. Class-based systems tend to railroad you in to whatever the designer envisioned. Of the class-based RPGs I've played, ESO actually does a fairly good job in having a more open structure - mostly because there are lots of class-agnostic skill lines as well as item sets that can reinforce character theme and concept.

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Also, not to mention the necromancer NPCs in game have completely different skills than we do as players.

Presuming I'm not mistaken, isn't it broadly the case that NPCs share some (but not all) of the PC skills? NPC necromancer has something like grave grasp, for example, but NPC necromancer has nothing like Bitter Harvest.

There are definitely some NPC abilities I wish were PC abilities. The NPC alchemist throw flask thing makes me really want Alchemist class!

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

What gameplay and mechanics of the class are exactly new and interesting and healthy for gameplay? Aside from the transformation mechanic?

• Clearly-defined tank/damage/heal skill lines (this is also present in Warden and has been retrofitted, albeit poorly, onto the older classes)
• More use of "while slotted" boosts on specific skills is neat
• Good balance of magicka and stamina morphs (again, also present in Warden and retrofitted to older classes)
• Skills interacting with dead bodies in a way I've never seen done in an aRPG before (e.g., Boneyard)
• Tether mechanic, which is unique to this class and used nowhere else (excepting perhaps Guard sort of?)
• Lots of abilities that interact with the justice system which prompted a revamp of some of this in general

Not everybody likes it, which is fine, but from a game design standpoint? It's a step up regardless of how I personally feel about it. I think it is very odd they didn't include a permanent summon for this class, though I understand why that decision was made and it was probably the right call given players would have constantly whined about getting bounties in town with their summons (that's why sorc pets aren't in the justice system yet I wager). I also don't like how a lot of abilities are tailored for PvP and worthless in PvE, but that's an ongoing problem with this game not unique to this class.

In any case, not really posting to argue, just presenting a perspective. Take or leave as one wills.

Starlock wrote: »

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Meanwhile if my story narrative spins me as a summoner of the undead yet I can't even raise a simple melee warrior skeleton or zombie, hopefully you can see how traditional necromancer fans are kinda being put into the dirt here? As someone who is also storyteller and focuses highly on narrative; if I don't fit into the world's classification of what a necromancer is by being completely different than even the Novice Necromancer NPCs, how am I able to get in the mood to tell a proper story with my character?

You just have to work within the limits of the game system you're using. Sometimes, certain character concepts don't really work in a given game system. I tend to view that as a challenge to overcome or an opportunity to be creative and do something a little bit different. Still, issues like this are why I prefer classless systems in RPGs. Class-based systems tend to railroad you in to whatever the designer envisioned. Of the class-based RPGs I've played, ESO actually does a fairly good job in having a more open structure - mostly because there are lots of class-agnostic skill lines as well as item sets that can reinforce character theme and concept.

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Also, not to mention the necromancer NPCs in game have completely different skills than we do as players.

Presuming I'm not mistaken, isn't it broadly the case that NPCs share some (but not all) of the PC skills? NPC necromancer has something like grave grasp, for example, but NPC necromancer has nothing like Bitter Harvest.

There are definitely some NPC abilities I wish were PC abilities. The NPC alchemist throw flask thing makes me really want Alchemist class!

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

What gameplay and mechanics of the class are exactly new and interesting and healthy for gameplay? Aside from the transformation mechanic?

• Clearly-defined tank/damage/heal skill lines (this is also present in Warden and has been retrofitted, albeit poorly, onto the older classes)
• More use of "while slotted" boosts on specific skills is neat
• Good balance of magicka and stamina morphs (again, also present in Warden and retrofitted to older classes)
• Skills interacting with dead bodies in a way I've never seen done in an aRPG before (e.g., Boneyard)
• Tether mechanic, which is unique to this class and used nowhere else (excepting perhaps Guard sort of?)
• Lots of abilities that interact with the justice system which prompted a revamp of some of this in general

Not everybody likes it, which is fine, but from a game design standpoint? It's a step up regardless of how I personally feel about it. I think it is very odd they didn't include a permanent summon for this class, though I understand why that decision was made and it was probably the right call given players would have constantly whined about getting bounties in town with their summons (that's why sorc pets aren't in the justice system yet I wager). I also don't like how a lot of abilities are tailored for PvP and worthless in PvE, but that's an ongoing problem with this game not unique to this class.

In any case, not really posting to argue, just presenting a perspective. Take or leave as one wills.

See, but the issue there is the game system Im using is telling me 'This is what a necromancer is' meanwhile me, as a necromancer, am not anything like that. It's even more silly to try and explain in lore why my character can turn into a bone goliath, one of the hardest necromancer rituals in ES, yet not summon a zombie or melee skeleton.

I can get why you view it as a challenge to design your character a certain way, but I see it as a lack of immersion. Every other ES game players have been able to learn the same exact spells and abilities NPCs have had. I don't see why this game should be any different.


There are certainly similarities with NPC skills, like what you mentioned with grave grasp for example. However, the issue there is while it is similar, it is so unlike the NPC variation that it becomes *uncanny*, not to mention that the NPC variation is 10000000 times more useful. I'd love to create a zone of negative energy that pulls people into the ground or locks them down and summons a couple skeletal warriors after the fact.

You are right that NPCs often share or have something similar with the classes. However, I believe this is an issue that plagues other classes than just Necromancer. For example, NPC sorcerers can summon dark magic tornados that look really cool and would fit amazingly in the dark magic line.

Now onto your last points, though.

• This is bad. The line being split up evenly among tank/heal/dps is not good design. Why? Because you run into the issue of the abilities behaving basically almost identically like other abilities from other classes that were meant to add flavor over 'it's a tank/dps/heal skill'. Take the damage line from Necromancer, for example. You have: Single target spammable, Delayed fireball, generic AoE skill, glorified dot, and generic but somehow worse AoE skill. Admittedly the very few skill interactions with corpses is what makes this line unique, but the corpse interactions are either very underwhelming or simply uninspired. Where as if we received a variety of minion-summoning from corpses? That'd be completely unlike anything a class has ever gotten before. You can go down each line in necromancer and do the same. There is no class flavor.
• Agree with the 'while slotted' bonus, but that's a small thing that isn't too worthy of praise imo. It's a small, little niche. But nothing we havent seen before nor does it provide class flavor.
• The issue with this one isn't the fact that there's a good balance of stam and mag morphs. The issue here is that Stam atm in necromancer is infinitely better than magicka and that's quite bad for a class that should function like Sorcerer. With magicka as a strong suit yet you can go stam to be a solid competitor.
• This one I don't get why you listed as a boon as the very, very few corpse interactions Necromancer has are quite bare-bones and extremely not-cool or thematic. The example you give is boneyard. Throwing it over the corpse makes your AoE deal more damage. That isn't entirely unique and doesn't provide any thematic feel to the class. It's just a theme-less stat boost that does nothing for me as a Necromancer-lover.
• The Tether mechanic is one of the worst mechanics introduced into this game atm as they rely on not only distance and positioning but a corpse. It's unique, but again, not necromancer-y or even thematic in the slightest. Why would I, as a necromancer, want to deal damage in a little puddle using the energy of a corpse instead of raising it? Also the tethers do very basic, bland stuff such as 'deal damage in area' and 'heal in area'. However, that's not to say I don't think they couldn't make it an actual thing that stands out really easily that would be *worthy* of your praise. What if the tethers rose the corpse they were draining and the healer one stayed close to allies and the damaging one actually went into melee to fight for the 13 seconds? (Their respective AoEs would be coming off of them for the entire duration) It'd solve the no-reanimation issue and provide an EXTREMELY unique skill. If tethers actually and did more than just 'Deal damage' and 'heal' then perhaps it'd be more thematic and unique. Also they wasted 2 skill slots on what could have easily been 1 skill with the tether.
• I'll agree with the justice system interaction, I actually think this is extremely immersive and is one of my favorite changes. However, again, I wouldn't give all the credit for that system to the Necromancer design, though.

I'm not trying to argue with you, @Starlock, although I would like your thoughts. I'm just trying to explain that those of us who wanted a traditional Elder Scrolls necromancer (like how we've been shown in game) got really shafted with the design of this class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S8GqQz6ZB4&ab_channel=CABLife

I also recommend checking out this video by one of the class Representatives if you ever have the time. As they too don't like the design of the class and it really summarizes the feelings of those who hate the design.

Starlock wrote: »

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

I'm just trying to explain that those of us who wanted a traditional Elder Scrolls necromancer (like how we've been shown in game) got really shafted with the design of this class.

That's a fair assessment. Looking at the design of the game thus far, I guess I never really expected that personally. None of the classes in ESO really conform to "traditional" Elder Scrolls when I think about it. There are many types of spells and abilities that don't have much (or any) precedent prior to ESO as far as I'm aware. That's probably because this game is fundamentally an MMO and the design philosophy was different than for any other Elder Scrolls game. If they'd gone with a classless system I think we could have seen something closer to what you wanted - we could have all the actual schools of magic properly represented instead of weirdly sort of kind of not really represented in the various class/skill lines. I'm still annoyed there's no alteration staves when that would have made so much more sense for a tanking staff than refitting frost staves.

That's fair. I guess the issue with the "traditional" elder scrolls experience is that in ESO the current Necromancer's aren't even like the NPCs in their own game. That's the problem, it's not that they aren't like ES necros from Skyrim or wherever. The game is actively telling and showing us what Necromancers are and the player class is just so different from that.

If Necromancers in this game were portrayed like their class counter part, everything would be chill because then the lived experience would be the same as the world experience.

At the moment there is some heavy cognitive dissonance between PC Necromancers and NPC Necromancers unlike any other class. Because at least they can fit into their npc archetypes. But Necromancers? Enemies outside of Elsweyr don't even use your skills.

A classless system with schools of magic and weapons to specialize in would have been amazing, yes. Then they could have just opened up the NPC spells to the players and just categorize them by school.

I still hate that magic users only have 2 options to choose from when they could easily at the very least toss a staff in for Alteration (tanking) illusion (support/utility) and conjuration (damage through summons).