Heavy Armor Is Dead, Long Live Medium Armor

Urzigurumash · February 2021

Firstmep wrote: »

BGs abd ic would like to have a word with you.. Heavy armor is very much an issue in all forms of pvp.

In my experience, Heavy was never the meta for Death Match prior to Greymoor, if it is now, and Heavy has always been the meta for objective modes. The only thing that ever came close to changing that was the DOT meta, because that was about the only patch where the best defense was a good offense in objective modes. Nowhere is it mandated that Heavy shouldn't be the meta for objective modes, and if Heavy is the meta for Death Match now, that's a sharp departure from every patch in BGs history prior to Greymoor.

honey_badger82 · February 2021

DonGodJoe wrote: »

I still dont understand why we have to argue over heavy negative bonuses when everyone one see here that the only logical solution is to decrease the damage taken from magical and physical sources AND decrease the DAMAGE DONE per heavy piece, this solves PVP and PVE at both lines .. Tanks remain heavy and strong in PVE and will do significant low dmg (compare to light/medium) in PvP

It's been offered by X people, XY people agreed to it.

The decrease to damage done would need to be something addressed with Battle Spirit, not the actual armor passive. PvE tanks would suffer even more with what you suggest if it was attached to the armor passive. We are not always tanking in a dungeon with a group and many times my tanks high dps on the back bar has saved the day in Vet dungeons.

Asardes · February 2021

I don't think PvE tanks will actually suffer that much from the 4-7% increase in magical damage taken depending on number of pieces worn, since heavy armor has higher base resistance than either medium, and also most direct hard hitting attacks, regardless of type can be blocked. In fact for tanks blocking is by far the most important form of mitigation and that's getting buffed by 5-7% depending on number of pieces worn. So the discussion about armor type is mostly about the relevance of bonuses and penalties in PvP.

tomofhyrule · February 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I am certain that most people agree that heavy armor was only buffed, both directly and indirectly and that it became only more favorable to choose.
I agree that medium armor looks more attractive than ever though.

Dracane wrote: »

most people agree that heavy armor was only buffed, both directly and indirectly

Dracane wrote: »

heavy armor was only buffed

...What?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Heavy Armor Penalties
Increases your damage taken from Magical attacks by 1% per piece worn

Reduces the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 1% per piece worn

Increases the cost of Roll Dodge by 3% per piece worn

Increases the size of your detection area while Sneaking by 10% per piece worn (making you easier to detect)

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Heavy Armor
Rapid Mending: This passive now increases your Healing Taken by 1% for every 2/1 pieces of Heavy Armor worn, rather than 4/8% when wearing 5 pieces or more.

Resolve: Decreased the amount of Armor granted per piece of Heavy Armor worn to 114/229/343, down from 121/142/363.

Revitalize: This passive now increases the resources restored from your fully-charged Heavy Attacks by 2/4% per piece of Heavy Armor worn, rather than 12/25% when wearing 5 pieces or more.

These are straight nerfs. Heavy armor was not "only buffed" as you say, and I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion. The penalties speak for themselves. Rapid Mending even at 7 pieces went from 8% to 7%, at 5/1/1 it's only 5%. Resolve gives less armor. Revitalize is nerfed for 5/1/1 and 6/1 heavy armor. Either you misread the changes, didn't bother to read them at all, or are constructing a narrative against Heavy armor. Either way, it's clear there are individuals on the forums clamoring for further nerfs to tanks who will never be content so long as heavy armor and the tank playstyle even exist in the game. This PTS patch cycle has seen a slow and steady erosion of passive benefits for tanks alongside nerfs to their sustain, mobility, and durability. Meanwhile, Medium armor gets a free pass with absolutely zero penalties whatsoever, and stamina already comprises the majority of builds in PvP; why are tanking passives like block cost and aoe damage reduction being thrown on Medium armor when it already has damage boosting passives? Shor's bones, Heavy armor now INCREASES the amount of magic damage you take, I should never feel like equipping more armor is making my character weaker in a game. And the last PTS 6.3.3 just nerfed Heavy armor AGAIN; how much are people willing to bet there will be another nerf to it on PTS 6.3.4? Taking offers.

Playstyle matters. Heavy is now more required than ever in PvP, while people using heavy in PvE are getting screwed over royally. It's as if the devs targeted the wrong group of players.

PvP has a major heavy/stam meta. 90% of incoming damage in PvP is from people with SnB/2H, so giving a buff to the physical resist is making heavy more attractive in PvP. This also includes some of the favorite proc sets like Crimson, since that's bleed damage so it's countered by physical.
PvP spends a lot of time trying to CC/be CC'd, so most will be CC immune due to recent break frees or immo pots. Heavy gives an extra 14 7% damage reduction in that case.
Avoidance techniques in PvP are usually from things like bunny hopping or moving behind environment while casting, so there isn't a lot of roll dodging/sprinting.
The biggest nerf that would affect PvP is the detection radius, but who cares about sneaking if you can stand up to whatever's being thrown at you.

Meanwhile, in PvE

Most people (DPS/healer) play in light/medium, so the tank really needs to have the resistances to hold bosses since the other group members can't take the hits.
Magical incoming damage is very common in dungeons/trials, so tanks need to be able to stand up to that. They just got reduced resistances.
A lot of oneshots or go-through-block mechanics like the vCR gryphons unblockable bleeds, which require dodge rolls. Tanks won't be able to avoid damage as much with higher roll cost, and they now have less resistance on top of that.
There aren't many PvE bosses that throw out CC, and people don't spend much time CC immune since we usually use tripots in PvE. That means the bonus resistances from being immune are irrelevant for PvE.
Tanks depend on a lot of resource management unless there's a good healer around to give them resources back, so the passives getting nerfed hurts a lot more as well.
The movement speed is a problem if a tank is supposed to lead the group, but you've got a lot of unhindered DPS who are impatient and pull early...

As a PvE tank, I can totally get some of the nerfs. I even don't mind the speed nerf and I'd take the roll dodge nerf if they nerfed some of the mechanics in dungeons/trials so a 7-heavy tank could just take the hit. I do not agree with the damage increase from mag sources. This is just making tanking that much harder, especially for newer/lower CP players.

If they swapped the meg penalty debuff to medium and gave heavy the block reduction instead, that'd honestly be fine to mostly fix PvE without affecting PvP. If their goal was to encourage non-heavy builds in PvP, a penalty of crit resist or damage done would be fine without affecting PvE. As it is now, heavy is only mopre required in PvP, but it was never good for PvE characters outside of tanks and just only got way worse.

I get that they want to encourage hybrid or 3/2/2 builds or whatever, but none of that changes the fact that PvE tanks use sets like Ebon or Yolnakriin, which only drop in heavy. It's tough to get a setup for a tank that's not at least 5 heavy that's not crippling your group buffs.

And yet, the devs have stayed silent on this. They've fiddled with the CP system and the new dungeons every patch, but this is the first change to the armor system and it was really minor. I'm actually wondering if they're going to be making the new armor sets with this in mind, e.g. the Q2 trial will end up giving us a light tank set (to help tanks resist incoming mag damage) and a heavy MagDPS set (to encourage mag use in PvP). I know the new dungeons are still favoring the standard light = mag, med = stam, heavy = tank style, but the armor changes really make it feel like they don't want tanks in heavy anymore.

JanTanhide · February 2021

It certainly is going to be interesting. I tested my main Tank on the PTS in Vet Hel Ra and Vet A.A. both solo. I was able to survive in both. A.A. couldn't kill me and I got tired and popped invis pot and escaped out the door.

Hel Ra went on for 15 minutes before I finally missed a key stroke and the mob got me. So...IDK.

I can say that CP allocation is paramount in the new system and you will need a lot to setup a Tank for hard core content. I'm sitting at 1540 on my main account and still did not unlock the node that adds an additional 1900 Spell and Physical resistance. IIRC that node is expensive at either 50 or 75 CP and I didn't have enough to populate it after all my other allocations. I think I need another 42 CP to unlock that node.

My Physical and Spell resistance currently on live is at or just above 33.1K on Live. With the nerfs on PTS it is about 28K Physical and 27K or so Spell resistance. Another 50 CP into that one node I didn't use would add another 1900 but still not near 33.1K as I currently have on Live.

As for Tanks not queuing for randoms or vet pledges I can't say. I don't queue much now randomly but I may once this goes live since there will be a need for more Tanks than ever. It is really going to be quite different though.

My thoughts on the new CP System? I actually like it and yes, I know we are losing damage and mitigation but we have some interesting builds to be made from the new CP system. My Assassin/Thief can go all out with the new CP system.

Oh, and now Healers will be more useful to keep players alive....

BlueRaven · February 2021

DonGodJoe wrote: »

I still dont understand why we have to argue over heavy negative bonuses when everyone one see here that the only logical solution is to decrease the damage taken from magical and physical sources AND decrease the DAMAGE DONE per heavy piece, this solves PVP and PVE at both lines .. Tanks remain heavy and strong in PVE and will do significant low dmg (compare to light/medium) in PvP

It's been offered by X people, XY people agreed to it.

Yes, let’s make PvE tanks less desirable to play, that will solve everything.

EDIT: PvE tanks don’t exist in a vacuum, they need to be able to quest, do dailies, and gather resources just as well as the next player.

Dracane · February 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

DonGodJoe wrote: »

I still dont understand why we have to argue over heavy negative bonuses when everyone one see here that the only logical solution is to decrease the damage taken from magical and physical sources AND decrease the DAMAGE DONE per heavy piece, this solves PVP and PVE at both lines .. Tanks remain heavy and strong in PVE and will do significant low dmg (compare to light/medium) in PvP

It's been offered by X people, XY people agreed to it.

Yes, let’s make PvE tanks less desirable to play, that will solve everything.

EDIT: PvE tanks don’t exist in a vacuum, they need to be able to quest, do dailies, and gather resources just as well as the next player.

What is a tank to you even? Most trial "tanks" just slap on 2 supports sets like Assault, Alkosh and Yol and hold block for 10 minutes and expect to be immortal. If a tank does not even build tanky and is - at the end of the day - just a guy with a sword and a shield in his hands, then they can not expect to survive everything.

I know, raid leaders demand it and leave no choice. But a properly built tank with actual survival sets, could care less about 4-7% more magic damage. A buff bot "tank" might be more affected. Then again, through block it hardly makes a difference.

honey_badger82 · February 2021

JanTanhide wrote: »

I can say that CP allocation is paramount in the new system and you will need a lot to setup a Tank for hard core content. I'm sitting at 1540 on my main account and still did not unlock the node that adds an additional 1900 Spell and Physical resistance. IIRC that node is expensive at either 50 or 75 CP and I didn't have enough to populate it after all my other allocations. I think I need another 42 CP to unlock that node.

My Physical and Spell resistance currently on live is at or just above 33.1K on Live. With the nerfs on PTS it is about 28K Physical and 27K or so Spell resistance. Another 50 CP into that one node I didn't use would add another 1900 but still not near 33.1K as I currently have on Live.

I didnt realize that the resistance passive was locked behind such a huge wall of required CP. This is really a bad design as that is the epitome of vertical progression. A CP 1600 tank is going to have nearly 2k more resistance over someone who has just hit 810. How on earth is this not vertical?

I am at about CP930ish and I was really counting on this CP skill, that must be slotted, to keep my tanks viable in PvE. They really need to make this early access instead of late. Without it I will be grinding nearly 700cp on my DPS and will not be able to play my single most favorite character for months and months.

Halcyon_Kismet · February 2021

It feels like this is major tunnel vision balancing Heavy Armor based off of PVP.

As many have suggested, reducing damage in place of one (or multiple...) of the negative effects would much better achieve the desired results without hurting PVE.

What I truly fear is going to happen is the consequences of this going live on your PVE community. PVE tanking is already a lackluster job and your making it even more unappealing. Most don't follow the PTS and I feel this is going to blindside a ton of PVE players, especially the middle to less experienced players. A lot of these players already struggle with the harder dlc dungeons and trials. These changes are only going to move your problem from PVP to PVE. (Or just create an extra problem cause apparently it isn't solving the problem anyways.)

TLDR : Do like everybody has said, nerf the damage instead of tanks ability to tank otherwise your going to hurt your average and low skill player base, which is likely the majority of players.

BlueRaven · February 2021

Dracane wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

DonGodJoe wrote: »

I still dont understand why we have to argue over heavy negative bonuses when everyone one see here that the only logical solution is to decrease the damage taken from magical and physical sources AND decrease the DAMAGE DONE per heavy piece, this solves PVP and PVE at both lines .. Tanks remain heavy and strong in PVE and will do significant low dmg (compare to light/medium) in PvP

It's been offered by X people, XY people agreed to it.

Yes, let’s make PvE tanks less desirable to play, that will solve everything.

EDIT: PvE tanks don’t exist in a vacuum, they need to be able to quest, do dailies, and gather resources just as well as the next player.

What is a tank to you even? Most trial "tanks" just slap on 2 supports sets like Assault, Alkosh and Yol and hold block for 10 minutes and expect to be immortal. If a tank does not even build tanky and is - at the end of the day - just a guy with a sword and a shield in his hands, then they can not expect to survive everything.

I know, raid leaders demand it and leave no choice. But a properly built tank with actual survival sets, could care less about 4-7% more magic damage. A buff bot "tank" might be more affected. Then again, through block it hardly makes a difference.

Did you reply to me by mistake? I don’t see how anything you said relates to anything I said.

The person I was responding to suggested nerfing tank damage. I was just saying that making tanking less desirable in pve solves nothing.
But who cares, they probably will do it because pve seems to be a constant afterthought with the combat team.

BlueRaven · February 2021

Halcyon_Kismet wrote: »

It feels like this is major tunnel vision balancing Heavy Armor based off of PVP.

As many have suggested, reducing damage in place of one (or multiple...) of the negative effects would much better achieve the desired results without hurting PVE.

What I truly fear is going to happen is the consequences of this going live on your PVE community. PVE tanking is already a lackluster job and your making it even more unappealing. Most don't follow the PTS and I feel this is going to blindside a ton of PVE players, especially the middle to less experienced players. A lot of these players already struggle with the harder dlc dungeons and trials. These changes are only going to move your problem from PVP to PVE. (Or just create an extra problem cause apparently it isn't solving the problem anyways.)

TLDR : Do like everybody has said, nerf the damage instead of tanks ability to tank otherwise your going to hurt your average and low skill player base, which is likely the majority of players.

Few people will want to be a tank in pve if they can’t get stuff done outside of a dungeon or trial.
Why play a tank when They can burn things down way faster if they stick with pure dps?

tomofhyrule · February 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

DonGodJoe wrote: »

I still dont understand why we have to argue over heavy negative bonuses when everyone one see here that the only logical solution is to decrease the damage taken from magical and physical sources AND decrease the DAMAGE DONE per heavy piece, this solves PVP and PVE at both lines .. Tanks remain heavy and strong in PVE and will do significant low dmg (compare to light/medium) in PvP

It's been offered by X people, XY people agreed to it.

Yes, let’s make PvE tanks less desirable to play, that will solve everything.

EDIT: PvE tanks don’t exist in a vacuum, they need to be able to quest, do dailies, and gather resources just as well as the next player.

But we tanks are used to going around with low DPS. In my full trial gear, I think I'm pulling around 3500 DPS, but in an actual fight it's more like 1500 tops. Getting even a huge nerf like 4% per piece would take me from 1500 to 1080, so that's kind of a negligible difference. In PVP though, where someone with 50k HP with super high resistances is able to dish out 30K DPS? Yeah, that'll change a lot.

Overland? Yeah, I have to use different sets to be able to do anything, and I've got my skills all switched around. I tend to run around in Leeching and Stuhn/Crimson if I need to do damage (I can solo normal CT in Leeching/Crimson/Malacath), and I'm averaging around 10-13k DPS. Sure, there are people doing solo vet hardmodes, but they have the DPS for that (although I did manage to solo FGI HM, which was really cool despite the fact that Kra'gh took almost 15 minutes). I mean, it's funny to look at my cmx afterwards and find out that Leeching Plate was my highest DPS contributor - my armor DPSes better than I do. But I can build for doing more than being a buffbot. I can even take down basegame WBs in more 'fun' sets like Ashen Grip (just because it's loads of fun to shield charge into a fire blast), which give me around 10k.

Fortunately overland is built for new players, so going around with sub 10k DPS overland or main quests is fine. There's a reason the only people who complain about how easy overland content is are veteran players with fully-kitted DPS gear. Sure, if I were a 100k DPS monster, I'd find the starter zones too easy as well. As it stands, I need to hit mobs a few times before they finally go down because a tanky build has basement-level DPS. And I'm okay with that or else I wouldn't have gone for a tank in the first place. At least I can still say the overland isn't just fluff.

A damage nerf per piece of heavy instead of the mag damage, especially if that also affected Malacath or proc sets, would make it even slower for me to get through overland. But it wouldn't be threatening since I'd take less damage as well. I might need to find a friend to do a WB or something, but I already have to if I want to get it done in under 10 minutes, what's an extra 5 minutes there?

But if we're going to talk about a system where PvE tanks, who already have low DPS in overland, will now also have decreased resistances? So what's the point? I can't beat a WB solo, but now I can watch it kill me unless I respec to a DPS? That's gonna make people want to change their builds.

BlueRaven · February 2021

tomofhyrule wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

DonGodJoe wrote: »

I still dont understand why we have to argue over heavy negative bonuses when everyone one see here that the only logical solution is to decrease the damage taken from magical and physical sources AND decrease the DAMAGE DONE per heavy piece, this solves PVP and PVE at both lines .. Tanks remain heavy and strong in PVE and will do significant low dmg (compare to light/medium) in PvP

It's been offered by X people, XY people agreed to it.

Yes, let’s make PvE tanks less desirable to play, that will solve everything.

EDIT: PvE tanks don’t exist in a vacuum, they need to be able to quest, do dailies, and gather resources just as well as the next player.

But we tanks are used to going around with low DPS. In my full trial gear, I think I'm pulling around 3500 DPS, but in an actual fight it's more like 1500 tops. Getting even a huge nerf like 4% per piece would take me from 1500 to 1080, so that's kind of a negligible difference. In PVP though, where someone with 50k HP with super high resistances is able to dish out 30K DPS? Yeah, that'll change a lot.

Overland? Yeah, I have to use different sets to be able to do anything, and I've got my skills all switched around. I tend to run around in Leeching and Stuhn/Crimson if I need to do damage (I can solo normal CT in Leeching/Crimson/Malacath), and I'm averaging around 10-13k DPS. Sure, there are people doing solo vet hardmodes, but they have the DPS for that (although I did manage to solo FGI HM, which was really cool despite the fact that Kra'gh took almost 15 minutes). I mean, it's funny to look at my cmx afterwards and find out that Leeching Plate was my highest DPS contributor - my armor DPSes better than I do. But I can build for doing more than being a buffbot. I can even take down basegame WBs in more 'fun' sets like Ashen Grip (just because it's loads of fun to shield charge into a fire blast), which give me around 10k.

Fortunately overland is built for new players, so going around with sub 10k DPS overland or main quests is fine. There's a reason the only people who complain about how easy overland content is are veteran players with fully-kitted DPS gear. Sure, if I were a 100k DPS monster, I'd find the starter zones too easy as well. As it stands, I need to hit mobs a few times before they finally go down because a tanky build has basement-level DPS. And I'm okay with that or else I wouldn't have gone for a tank in the first place. At least I can still say the overland isn't just fluff.

A damage nerf per piece of heavy instead of the mag damage, especially if that also affected Malacath or proc sets, would make it even slower for me to get through overland. But it wouldn't be threatening since I'd take less damage as well. I might need to find a friend to do a WB or something, but I already have to if I want to get it done in under 10 minutes, what's an extra 5 minutes there?

But if we're going to talk about a system where PvE tanks, who already have low DPS in overland, will now also have decreased resistances? So what's the point? I can't beat a WB solo, but now I can watch it kill me unless I respec to a DPS? That's gonna make people want to change their builds.

When this game first came out tanks could perform much higher dps. In fact when talking about the early dungeon design, zos talked how tanks and healers were meant to contribute with the dps of bosses. While not optimal for dps, the higher dps numbers resulted in tanks and healers being in higher numbers.
After numerous nerfs to their dps and general quality of life, fake tanks and healers are now common. And the changes proposed will further make those positions even less desirable, increasing the problem even further.
Right now doing quests, even trying to kill a tiger near a mining node, it is painful, PAINFUL to do. It should not be that way.

You may not mind taking longer to do quests (just as some people don’t mind doing their taxes in the US) but that does not mean the general population shares that view. Tanks and healers are in short supply because those positions are not fun to play. Nerfing them further is not going to make them more popular.

Veinblood1965 · February 2021

Well now that the lag might be fixed in PVP is this what the forums are reduced to? I miss the old days.

Asardes · February 2021

I don't understand why people wanna gimp themselves questing or simply doing overland stuff in their tank gear. Even if all your points are in HP you can still get decent DPS (>25k) by equipping DPS gear & skills and using Ghastly Eye Ball or Lava Foot Soup and Saltrice. And there are more than enough skill points to spec crafting, tank and DD on the same character.

UppGRAYxDD · February 2021

Hvy? Light? Medium? ..... smh
The real question is what’s the naked Bucket and Broom build gonna do?

Sangwyne · February 2021

TC_Lee13 wrote: »

This is false information and you clearly haven't tested anything on the PTS. Heavy armor is actually really overpowered on the PTS, especially when combined with mitigation CP.

Cite your sources. Use numbers, changes from the PTS, anything to support your argument, but don't just say "wrong lul heavy OP" whenever anyone actually goes to the effort to include data and then give zero reasons as to why heavy is "really overpowered" when every tank player in PvE seems to agree it's not. There's a multitude of players on the forums that have zero experience tanking and just mindlessly complain whenever tanks bring up a valid point, don't be one of them.

BlueRaven wrote: »

DonGodJoe wrote: »

I still dont understand why we have to argue over heavy negative bonuses when everyone one see here that the only logical solution is to decrease the damage taken from magical and physical sources AND decrease the DAMAGE DONE per heavy piece, this solves PVP and PVE at both lines .. Tanks remain heavy and strong in PVE and will do significant low dmg (compare to light/medium) in PvP

It's been offered by X people, XY people agreed to it.

Yes, let’s make PvE tanks less desirable to play, that will solve everything.

EDIT: PvE tanks don’t exist in a vacuum, they need to be able to quest, do dailies, and gather resources just as well as the next player.

I'm not actually on board with further nerfing Heavy armor in terms of damage when it already has so many drawbacks on the PBE, so please count me out on that vote. Maybe if there was a poll of tank players to see how many would prefer that, we could determine whether that would be an acceptable solution. I really don't want to see tanks nerfed in PvE any further, I guess I don't much mind if changes are made to Battle Spirit in PvP to account for the discrepancy there, but it's clear that any further nerfs would have to be PvP specific, because as it stands now the state of Heavy armor for PvE is awful.

YandereGirlfriend · February 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

Halcyon_Kismet wrote: »

It feels like this is major tunnel vision balancing Heavy Armor based off of PVP.

As many have suggested, reducing damage in place of one (or multiple...) of the negative effects would much better achieve the desired results without hurting PVE.

What I truly fear is going to happen is the consequences of this going live on your PVE community. PVE tanking is already a lackluster job and your making it even more unappealing. Most don't follow the PTS and I feel this is going to blindside a ton of PVE players, especially the middle to less experienced players. A lot of these players already struggle with the harder dlc dungeons and trials. These changes are only going to move your problem from PVP to PVE. (Or just create an extra problem cause apparently it isn't solving the problem anyways.)

TLDR : Do like everybody has said, nerf the damage instead of tanks ability to tank otherwise your going to hurt your average and low skill player base, which is likely the majority of players.

Few people will want to be a tank in pve if they can’t get stuff done outside of a dungeon or trial.
Why play a tank when They can burn things down way faster if they stick with pure dps?

The answer to this is clear: you make a tank for instant dungeon queues and easier assembly of PvE guild runs.

If you're questing or overland farming in Heavy Armor you're already doing it wrong.

Make a DPS and Healer in addition to your tank. You'll be even more useful to your guild since you can now slot into any role and you will always have a solid character to quest and farm overland with (your DPS).

TC_Lee13 · February 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

TC_Lee13 wrote: »

This is false information and you clearly haven't tested anything on the PTS. Heavy armor is actually really overpowered on the PTS, especially when combined with mitigation CP.

Cite your sources. Use numbers, changes from the PTS, anything to support your argument, but don't just say "wrong lul heavy OP" whenever anyone actually goes to the effort to include data and then give zero reasons as to why heavy is "really overpowered" when every tank player in PvE seems to agree it's not. There's a multitude of players on the forums that have zero experience tanking and just mindlessly complain whenever tanks bring up a valid point, don't be one of them.

BlueRaven wrote: »

DonGodJoe wrote: »

I still dont understand why we have to argue over heavy negative bonuses when everyone one see here that the only logical solution is to decrease the damage taken from magical and physical sources AND decrease the DAMAGE DONE per heavy piece, this solves PVP and PVE at both lines .. Tanks remain heavy and strong in PVE and will do significant low dmg (compare to light/medium) in PvP

It's been offered by X people, XY people agreed to it.

Yes, let’s make PvE tanks less desirable to play, that will solve everything.

EDIT: PvE tanks don’t exist in a vacuum, they need to be able to quest, do dailies, and gather resources just as well as the next player.

I'm not actually on board with further nerfing Heavy armor in terms of damage when it already has so many drawbacks on the PBE, so please count me out on that vote. Maybe if there was a poll of tank players to see how many would prefer that, we could determine whether that would be an acceptable solution. I really don't want to see tanks nerfed in PvE any further, I guess I don't much mind if changes are made to Battle Spirit in PvP to account for the discrepancy there, but it's clear that any further nerfs would have to be PvP specific, because as it stands now the state of Heavy armor for PvE is awful.

https://youtu.be/8OPDEZqAmzE

Sangwyne · February 2021

TC_Lee13 wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Cite your sources. Use numbers, changes from the PTS, anything to support your argument, but don't just say "wrong lul heavy OP" whenever anyone actually goes to the effort to include data and then give zero reasons as to why heavy is "really overpowered" when every tank player in PvE seems to agree it's not. There's a multitude of players on the forums that have zero experience tanking and just mindlessly complain whenever tanks bring up a valid point, don't be one of them.

https://youtu.be/8OPDEZqAmzE

@TC_Lee13
Thank you for this. I still disagree regarding heavy armor being "overpowered", but I'm willing to admit I might have overdone it and vented a little regarding the PTS patch notes in my frustration over the repeated tank nerfs. Your video was the first thing I've seen on the changes (i.e., nerfs) to Heavy armor and passives that gives me reason to hope they won't be as bad as they seem to look; I watched your video and found it very informative, and was hoping to ask you some further questions about it if you happened to have the time, although I don't know of a way to do that without posting them in a discussion.

DonGodJoe · February 2021

Wow people.. making damage as a tank in pve content? really?
Tank saved day in vet dungeon many times? Another really?

Apparently then its a dps or healer fault when they died and "tank" had to save dungeon..

TANK is supposed to TANK, not doing insane damage and be unkillable.

I'm tanking but defo not doing dmg since its a dps job to do, this has nothing to do with being lazy or anything, its just how it is, agro and survive 24/7 as long healer is alive.

honey_badger82 · February 2021

my question with that video is where were the resistances sitting at with a 5/1/1 build?
With the build I am going for once this goes live I will be pushing 30k each above 50% health and max for both if I slip under 50%

xaraan · February 2021

ZOS always trying to fix a problem in the worst way possible when the more obvious answer is looking them right in the face.

Wanna make heavy armor for tanking and not for dps in pvp? Add a maim to it instead of making it useless for tanks to run in PvE.

The armor changes have been some of the worst concepts they've pitched recently.

Not that taking bonus magical damage when you have max resist is equal to that same bonus damage on a build (LA) with 1/3 the resists to begin with.

But medium should take bonus magic damage and heavy should have a maim on it like 3-4% per piece. You could wear malacath to cancel it out, but you wouldn't be really benefiting from it. The best builds for heavy would be as a true tank = as it should be.

We'll see if zos can fix it before live, but they usually don't. The PTS is barely a true testing ground anymore past looking for game breakers and even then those don't' get fixed sometimes.

jle30303 · February 2021

A thought here:

Tanks should never, NEVER have to roll-dodge. They should always be able to tank a big single hit by Blocking instead of Dodging, provided they are at full health (and it is up to the healer to keep them at full health).

If boss attack, even a special attack that's only delivered occasionally and has a big visible wind-up, hits so hard that it can one-shot a blocking tank with, say, over 40k health, then *that boss hits too hard*. The tank should be able to block even if other people have to dodge. Being able to stand in the red when others can't, is what tanks are FOR.

silver1surfer69 · February 2021

What you wrote in intro sounds more like a wish than what reality will be. I think reality is that you will now have more dmg with it coming from per piece medium. I was 5-2 heavy and i will go 4-3, 4 heavy, 3 medium and i think that will be an improvement rather then a nerf.

Jayroo · February 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

DonGodJoe wrote: »

I still dont understand why we have to argue over heavy negative bonuses when everyone one see here that the only logical solution is to decrease the damage taken from magical and physical sources AND decrease the DAMAGE DONE per heavy piece, this solves PVP and PVE at both lines .. Tanks remain heavy and strong in PVE and will do significant low dmg (compare to light/medium) in PvP

It's been offered by X people, XY people agreed to it.

Yes, let’s make PvE tanks less desirable to play, that will solve everything.

EDIT: PvE tanks don’t exist in a vacuum, they need to be able to quest, do dailies, and gather resources just as well as the next player.

I have a questing/solo setup, if you don't do this for your tanks, I highly advise it.

Merforum · February 2021

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I am certain that most people agree that heavy armor was only buffed, both directly and indirectly and that it became only more favorable to choose.
I agree that medium armor looks more attractive than ever though.

Dracane wrote: »

most people agree that heavy armor was only buffed, both directly and indirectly

Dracane wrote: »

heavy armor was only buffed

...What?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Heavy Armor Penalties
Increases your damage taken from Magical attacks by 1% per piece worn

Reduces the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 1% per piece worn

Increases the cost of Roll Dodge by 3% per piece worn

Increases the size of your detection area while Sneaking by 10% per piece worn (making you easier to detect)

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Heavy Armor
Rapid Mending: This passive now increases your Healing Taken by 1% for every 2/1 pieces of Heavy Armor worn, rather than 4/8% when wearing 5 pieces or more.

Resolve: Decreased the amount of Armor granted per piece of Heavy Armor worn to 114/229/343, down from 121/142/363.

Revitalize: This passive now increases the resources restored from your fully-charged Heavy Attacks by 2/4% per piece of Heavy Armor worn, rather than 12/25% when wearing 5 pieces or more.

These are straight nerfs. Heavy armor was not "only buffed" as you say, and I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion. The penalties speak for themselves. Rapid Mending even at 7 pieces went from 8% to 7%, at 5/1/1 it's only 5%. Resolve gives less armor. Revitalize is nerfed for 5/1/1 and 6/1 heavy armor. Either you misread the changes, didn't bother to read them at all, or are constructing a narrative against Heavy armor. Either way, it's clear there are individuals on the forums clamoring for further nerfs to tanks who will never be content so long as heavy armor and the tank playstyle even exist in the game. This PTS patch cycle has seen a slow and steady erosion of passive benefits for tanks alongside nerfs to their sustain, mobility, and durability. Meanwhile, Medium armor gets a free pass with absolutely zero penalties whatsoever, and stamina already comprises the majority of builds in PvP; why are tanking passives like block cost and aoe damage reduction being thrown on Medium armor when it already has damage boosting passives? Shor's bones, Heavy armor now INCREASES the amount of magic damage you take, I should never feel like equipping more armor is making my character weaker in a game. And the last PTS 6.3.3 just nerfed Heavy armor AGAIN; how much are people willing to bet there will be another nerf to it on PTS 6.3.4? Taking offers.

Playstyle matters. Heavy is now more required than ever in PvP, while people using heavy in PvE are getting screwed over royally. It's as if the devs targeted the wrong group of players.
PvP has a major heavy/stam meta. 90% of incoming damage in PvP is from people with SnB/2H, so giving a buff to the physical resist is making heavy more attractive in PvP. This also includes some of the favorite proc sets like Crimson, since that's bleed damage so it's countered by physical.

PvP spends a lot of time trying to CC/be CC'd, so most will be CC immune due to recent break frees or immo pots. Heavy gives an extra 14 7% damage reduction in that case.

Avoidance techniques in PvP are usually from things like bunny hopping or moving behind environment while casting, so there isn't a lot of roll dodging/sprinting.

The biggest nerf that would affect PvP is the detection radius, but who cares about sneaking if you can stand up to whatever's being thrown at you.

Meanwhile, in PvE
Most people (DPS/healer) play in light/medium, so the tank really needs to have the resistances to hold bosses since the other group members can't take the hits.

Magical incoming damage is very common in dungeons/trials, so tanks need to be able to stand up to that. They just got reduced resistances.

A lot of oneshots or go-through-block mechanics like the vCR gryphons unblockable bleeds, which require dodge rolls. Tanks won't be able to avoid damage as much with higher roll cost, and they now have less resistance on top of that.

There aren't many PvE bosses that throw out CC, and people don't spend much time CC immune since we usually use tripots in PvE. That means the bonus resistances from being immune are irrelevant for PvE.

Tanks depend on a lot of resource management unless there's a good healer around to give them resources back, so the passives getting nerfed hurts a lot more as well.

The movement speed is a problem if a tank is supposed to lead the group, but you've got a lot of unhindered DPS who are impatient and pull early...

As a PvE tank, I can totally get some of the nerfs. I even don't mind the speed nerf and I'd take the roll dodge nerf if they nerfed some of the mechanics in dungeons/trials so a 7-heavy tank could just take the hit. I do not agree with the damage increase from mag sources. This is just making tanking that much harder, especially for newer/lower CP players.

If they swapped the meg penalty debuff to medium and gave heavy the block reduction instead, that'd honestly be fine to mostly fix PvE without affecting PvP. If their goal was to encourage non-heavy builds in PvP, a penalty of crit resist or damage done would be fine without affecting PvE. As it is now, heavy is only mopre required in PvP, but it was never good for PvE characters outside of tanks and just only got way worse.

I get that they want to encourage hybrid or 3/2/2 builds or whatever, but none of that changes the fact that PvE tanks use sets like Ebon or Yolnakriin, which only drop in heavy. It's tough to get a setup for a tank that's not at least 5 heavy that's not crippling your group buffs.

And yet, the devs have stayed silent on this. They've fiddled with the CP system and the new dungeons every patch, but this is the first change to the armor system and it was really minor. I'm actually wondering if they're going to be making the new armor sets with this in mind, e.g. the Q2 trial will end up giving us a light tank set (to help tanks resist incoming mag damage) and a heavy MagDPS set (to encourage mag use in PvP). I know the new dungeons are still favoring the standard light = mag, med = stam, heavy = tank style, but the armor changes really make it feel like they don't want tanks in heavy anymore.

These are great points. They are using valid reasoning for changing stuff like heavy armor shouldn't be able to run fast or roll dodge well but then not using the same logic for light/med, for instance wtf would medium have reduce block cost but not heavy. If they used logic across the board here's how it would look.

Light Armor Bonuses

Reduces your damage taken from “Magical” (Magic, Flame, Frost, and Shock Damage) attacks by 1% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Sprint/Roll Dodge by 3% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Sneak/Increases your Movement Speed while Sneaking by 2% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Break Free by 5% per piece worn

Light Armor Penalties

Increases your damage taken from “Martial” (Physical, Poison, Disease, and Bleed Damage) attacks by 1% per piece worn
Reduces the amount of damage blocked/increases cost of block by 3% per piece worn
Reduces damage done with Bash/increases cost Bash by 3% per piece worn

Medium Armor Bonuses

Reduces your damage taken from “Martial” (Physical, Poison, Disease, and Bleed Damage) attacks by 1% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Sprint/Roll Dodge by 1% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Sneak/Increases your Movement Speed while Sneaking by 5% per piece worn
Reduces your damage taken from Area of Effect Attacks by 2% for 2 seconds after you Roll Dodge
Increases your Movement Speed by 2% while immune to crowd control (leave for PVP but kind of dumb)
Reduces the cost of Break Free by 2% per piece worn

Medium Armor Penalties

Increases your damage taken from “Magical” (Magic, Flame, Frost, and Shock Damage) attacks by 1% per piece worn
Reduces the amount of damage blocked/increases cost of block by 1% per piece worn
Reduces damage done with Bash/increases cost Bash by 1% per piece worn

Heavy Armor Bonuses

Reduces your damage taken from Martial/Magical attacks by 1% per piece worn
Increases the amount of damage blocked/reduces cost of block by 3% per piece worn
Increases damage done with Bash/reduces cost Bash by 3% per piece worn
Reduces your damage taken while immune to crowd control by 2% per piece worn (PVP)

Heavy Armor Penalties

Reduces the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 1% per piece worn
Increases the cost of Roll Dodge by 3% per piece worn
Increases the size of your detection area while Sneaking by 10% per piece worn (making you easier to detect)

Merforum · February 2021

Merforum wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I am certain that most people agree that heavy armor was only buffed, both directly and indirectly and that it became only more favorable to choose.
I agree that medium armor looks more attractive than ever though.

Dracane wrote: »

most people agree that heavy armor was only buffed, both directly and indirectly

Dracane wrote: »

heavy armor was only buffed

...What?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Heavy Armor Penalties
Increases your damage taken from Magical attacks by 1% per piece worn

Reduces the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 1% per piece worn

Increases the cost of Roll Dodge by 3% per piece worn

Increases the size of your detection area while Sneaking by 10% per piece worn (making you easier to detect)

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Heavy Armor
Rapid Mending: This passive now increases your Healing Taken by 1% for every 2/1 pieces of Heavy Armor worn, rather than 4/8% when wearing 5 pieces or more.

Resolve: Decreased the amount of Armor granted per piece of Heavy Armor worn to 114/229/343, down from 121/142/363.

Revitalize: This passive now increases the resources restored from your fully-charged Heavy Attacks by 2/4% per piece of Heavy Armor worn, rather than 12/25% when wearing 5 pieces or more.

These are straight nerfs. Heavy armor was not "only buffed" as you say, and I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion. The penalties speak for themselves. Rapid Mending even at 7 pieces went from 8% to 7%, at 5/1/1 it's only 5%. Resolve gives less armor. Revitalize is nerfed for 5/1/1 and 6/1 heavy armor. Either you misread the changes, didn't bother to read them at all, or are constructing a narrative against Heavy armor. Either way, it's clear there are individuals on the forums clamoring for further nerfs to tanks who will never be content so long as heavy armor and the tank playstyle even exist in the game. This PTS patch cycle has seen a slow and steady erosion of passive benefits for tanks alongside nerfs to their sustain, mobility, and durability. Meanwhile, Medium armor gets a free pass with absolutely zero penalties whatsoever, and stamina already comprises the majority of builds in PvP; why are tanking passives like block cost and aoe damage reduction being thrown on Medium armor when it already has damage boosting passives? Shor's bones, Heavy armor now INCREASES the amount of magic damage you take, I should never feel like equipping more armor is making my character weaker in a game. And the last PTS 6.3.3 just nerfed Heavy armor AGAIN; how much are people willing to bet there will be another nerf to it on PTS 6.3.4? Taking offers.

Playstyle matters. Heavy is now more required than ever in PvP, while people using heavy in PvE are getting screwed over royally. It's as if the devs targeted the wrong group of players.
PvP has a major heavy/stam meta. 90% of incoming damage in PvP is from people with SnB/2H, so giving a buff to the physical resist is making heavy more attractive in PvP. This also includes some of the favorite proc sets like Crimson, since that's bleed damage so it's countered by physical.

PvP spends a lot of time trying to CC/be CC'd, so most will be CC immune due to recent break frees or immo pots. Heavy gives an extra 14 7% damage reduction in that case.

Avoidance techniques in PvP are usually from things like bunny hopping or moving behind environment while casting, so there isn't a lot of roll dodging/sprinting.

The biggest nerf that would affect PvP is the detection radius, but who cares about sneaking if you can stand up to whatever's being thrown at you.

Meanwhile, in PvE
Most people (DPS/healer) play in light/medium, so the tank really needs to have the resistances to hold bosses since the other group members can't take the hits.

Magical incoming damage is very common in dungeons/trials, so tanks need to be able to stand up to that. They just got reduced resistances.

A lot of oneshots or go-through-block mechanics like the vCR gryphons unblockable bleeds, which require dodge rolls. Tanks won't be able to avoid damage as much with higher roll cost, and they now have less resistance on top of that.

There aren't many PvE bosses that throw out CC, and people don't spend much time CC immune since we usually use tripots in PvE. That means the bonus resistances from being immune are irrelevant for PvE.

Tanks depend on a lot of resource management unless there's a good healer around to give them resources back, so the passives getting nerfed hurts a lot more as well.

The movement speed is a problem if a tank is supposed to lead the group, but you've got a lot of unhindered DPS who are impatient and pull early...

As a PvE tank, I can totally get some of the nerfs. I even don't mind the speed nerf and I'd take the roll dodge nerf if they nerfed some of the mechanics in dungeons/trials so a 7-heavy tank could just take the hit. I do not agree with the damage increase from mag sources. This is just making tanking that much harder, especially for newer/lower CP players.

If they swapped the meg penalty debuff to medium and gave heavy the block reduction instead, that'd honestly be fine to mostly fix PvE without affecting PvP. If their goal was to encourage non-heavy builds in PvP, a penalty of crit resist or damage done would be fine without affecting PvE. As it is now, heavy is only mopre required in PvP, but it was never good for PvE characters outside of tanks and just only got way worse.

I get that they want to encourage hybrid or 3/2/2 builds or whatever, but none of that changes the fact that PvE tanks use sets like Ebon or Yolnakriin, which only drop in heavy. It's tough to get a setup for a tank that's not at least 5 heavy that's not crippling your group buffs.

And yet, the devs have stayed silent on this. They've fiddled with the CP system and the new dungeons every patch, but this is the first change to the armor system and it was really minor. I'm actually wondering if they're going to be making the new armor sets with this in mind, e.g. the Q2 trial will end up giving us a light tank set (to help tanks resist incoming mag damage) and a heavy MagDPS set (to encourage mag use in PvP). I know the new dungeons are still favoring the standard light = mag, med = stam, heavy = tank style, but the armor changes really make it feel like they don't want tanks in heavy anymore.

These are great points. They are using valid reasoning for changing stuff like heavy armor shouldn't be able to run fast or roll dodge well but then not using the same logic for light/med, for instance wtf would medium have reduce block cost but not heavy. If they used logic across the board here's how it would look.

Light Armor Bonuses

Reduces your damage taken from “Magical” (Magic, Flame, Frost, and Shock Damage) attacks by 1% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Sprint/Roll Dodge by 3% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Sneak/Increases your Movement Speed while Sneaking by 2% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Break Free by 5% per piece worn

Light Armor Penalties

Increases your damage taken from “Martial” (Physical, Poison, Disease, and Bleed Damage) attacks by 1% per piece worn
Reduces the amount of damage blocked/increases cost of block by 3% per piece worn
Reduces damage done with Bash/increases cost Bash by 3% per piece worn

Medium Armor Bonuses

Reduces your damage taken from “Martial” (Physical, Poison, Disease, and Bleed Damage) attacks by 1% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Sprint/Roll Dodge by 1% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Sneak/Increases your Movement Speed while Sneaking by 5% per piece worn
Reduces your damage taken from Area of Effect Attacks by 2% for 2 seconds after you Roll Dodge
Increases your Movement Speed by 2% while immune to crowd control (leave for PVP but kind of dumb)
Reduces the cost of Break Free by 2% per piece worn

Medium Armor Penalties

Increases your damage taken from “Magical” (Magic, Flame, Frost, and Shock Damage) attacks by 1% per piece worn
Reduces the amount of damage blocked/increases cost of block by 1% per piece worn
Reduces damage done with Bash/increases cost Bash by 1% per piece worn

Heavy Armor Bonuses

Reduces your damage taken from Martial/Magical attacks by 1% per piece worn
Increases the amount of damage blocked/reduces cost of block by 3% per piece worn
Increases damage done with Bash/reduces cost Bash by 3% per piece worn
Reduces your damage taken while immune to crowd control by 2% per piece worn (PVP)

Heavy Armor Penalties

Reduces the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 1% per piece worn
Increases the cost of Roll Dodge by 3% per piece worn
Increases the size of your detection area while Sneaking by 10% per piece worn (making you easier to detect)

All that being said if as some post say the CP2 will address many things and make tanks even stronger in PVE, and if they are changing gear/skils to 'balance' PVP and make it ALL No-CP, then using CP system to beef up 'PVE only', that makes a lot of sense. Is that what ZOS is doing. I still think my bonus/penalties above make more sense in PVP and PVE even if they are doing that. But we'll see.

One change I would love to see is making roll dodge not so extremely powerful, meaning you take absolutely no damage from basically any attack if you roll in time. While having max block reduction and most tanky build against some bosses won't save you. That never made sense to me.

Roll dodge should be like other game where yes all light attacks and single target attacks do no damage if you successfully dodge but AOE attacks and multi-target attacks, should at least give partial damage even if you dodge. Also you should NEVER be able to roll dodge literally THROUGH anyone, there are only a few bosses you can't roll dodge THRU but it should be everyone especially players. Also it should take directionality into account for instance is boss has whirlwind attack, rolling any direction except straight backward should hit you, while if the boss does conal attack forward you'd have to roll left or right.

At the same time they should make blocking and interrupting more useful. For instance, giving higher damage reduction for block and making more boss attacks interruptible (even if they make wind up window shorter). Some one shot mechanics literally require the greatest tank to roll rather than block or bash, which is kind of dumb, especially if they plan on making heavy armor increase dodge cost. These changes would be good for PVP and make TANKing more useful.

relentless_turnip · February 2021

@Merforum I would just add that heavy on the PTS for PvP is already the most dominant of the 3 weights. Your suggestions lean closer to further buffing it for this environment.

I think light and medium should get a slight damage buff and heavy get a substantial damage debuff per piece like 3-4%. By all means heavy can have 2% mitigation per piece from physical and magical, but it shouldn't gain mitigation to both without a damage debuff imo.

Merforum · February 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

@Merforum I would just add that heavy on the PTS for PvP is already the most dominant of the 3 weights. Your suggestions lean closer to further buffing it for this environment.

I think light and medium should get a slight damage buff and heavy get a substantial damage debuff per piece like 3-4%. By all means heavy can have 2% mitigation per piece from physical and magical, but it shouldn't gain mitigation to both without a damage debuff imo.

I believe increase/reduce damage TAKEN makes sense when talking about ARMOR, but increase/reduce damage DONE based on your armor doesn't really make sense to me logically. The system is already supposed to increase/reduce damage DONE based on stats, wpn/mgc damage, crit etc. And using heavy armor + health already massively reduces damage for tanky builds. I actually always used heavy in PVP from about the second time I got ganked over and over, it actually made me hate PVP for years.

I think what I am saying would make PVE tanks good again, and still not change PVP hardly at all. And if they want tanky builds in PVP to do less damage, they should tweak other things like battle spirit to achieve that. But actually on PTS right now aren't there other reasons damage is still ok on tanky build like 1000 bonus damage for everyone and things like that, rather than any bonus/neg from armor?

BTW my suggestion is more focused on 'logic' of bonus/neg that would make sense in real world based on armor type, like light armor being best for moving and heavy worst, rather than perfect balance for actual game, although I think it does that pretty well too.