What's the weakest race now?
-
ZeroDPS✭✭✭✭this one thinks Khajiits are the weakest race, especially after crit nerfs...
but maybe this one is wrong, who knows...2 -
RandomKodiak✭✭✭✭✭bosmer is pretty much useless now..
That 950 pen bonus is essentially a free 27 CP points that can be put into damage CPs. The new passive pen cp is 350 pen for 10 points/ 4 levels for 1400. Can't test right now but with them lowering (not to pre Markarth levels but halfway there) the extra regen might be handy on long fights. The 950 pen is definately nothing to sneeze at though. If the amount of pen to shoot for stays around 3200 for stam toons Bosmer are doing way better than they have been. If the number goes either way they are still in a pretty good spot since they will be able to put more points faster into damage CPs faster than other races.6 -
lQrukl✭✭✭✭Lizzards definitely. Even with 6% healing bonus that argonians have, altmer or dunmer is still much better in healing, not to mention about dd role.
1 -
lihentian✭✭✭✭✭RandomKodiak wrote: »bosmer is pretty much useless now..
That 950 pen bonus is essentially a free 27 CP points that can be put into damage CPs. The new passive pen cp is 350 pen for 10 points/ 4 levels for 1400. Can't test right now but with them lowering (not to pre Markarth levels but halfway there) the extra regen might be handy on long fights. The 950 pen is definately nothing to sneeze at though. If the amount of pen to shoot for stays around 3200 for stam toons Bosmer are doing way better than they have been. If the number goes either way they are still in a pretty good spot since they will be able to put more points faster into damage CPs faster than other races.
And constantly dodge roll will not result in dps loss?? imo, it break my weaving.. plus dodge roll is not free, it cost stamina.. which make it harder to sustain. plus, roll break stealth....
buff only last 6 second.. it is not a 24/7 buff. Maybe if they increase buff duration to something like 30 sec. I tried on trial dummy, dodge roll only decrease my overall dps.0 -
Lumenn✭✭✭✭✭
✭RandomKodiak wrote: »bosmer is pretty much useless now..
That 950 pen bonus is essentially a free 27 CP points that can be put into damage CPs. The new passive pen cp is 350 pen for 10 points/ 4 levels for 1400. Can't test right now but with them lowering (not to pre Markarth levels but halfway there) the extra regen might be handy on long fights. The 950 pen is definately nothing to sneeze at though. If the amount of pen to shoot for stays around 3200 for stam toons Bosmer are doing way better than they have been. If the number goes either way they are still in a pretty good spot since they will be able to put more points faster into damage CPs faster than other races.
And constantly dodge roll will not result in dps loss?? imo, it break my weaving.. plus dodge roll is not free, it cost stamina.. which make it harder to sustain. plus, roll break stealth....
buff only last 6 second.. it is not a 24/7 buff. Maybe if they increase buff duration to something like 30 sec. I tried on trial dummy, dodge roll only decrease my overall dps.
Umm....2 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭RandomKodiak wrote: »bosmer is pretty much useless now..
That 950 pen bonus is essentially a free 27 CP points that can be put into damage CPs. The new passive pen cp is 350 pen for 10 points/ 4 levels for 1400. Can't test right now but with them lowering (not to pre Markarth levels but halfway there) the extra regen might be handy on long fights. The 950 pen is definately nothing to sneeze at though. If the amount of pen to shoot for stays around 3200 for stam toons Bosmer are doing way better than they have been. If the number goes either way they are still in a pretty good spot since they will be able to put more points faster into damage CPs faster than other races.
And constantly dodge roll will not result in dps loss?? imo, it break my weaving.. plus dodge roll is not free, it cost stamina.. which make it harder to sustain. plus, roll break stealth....
buff only last 6 second.. it is not a 24/7 buff. Maybe if they increase buff duration to something like 30 sec. I tried on trial dummy, dodge roll only decrease my overall dps.
You do realize that the dodge roll requirement is not there anymore? You literally get a free 5% movement speed and 950 pen... in pvp that means you can drop a swift for another trait like infused and you can drop some cp for other trees6 -
Ascarl✭✭✭✭✭In the end it doesn t matter which is the most desperate race and which is second. The devs need to undo the part of the patch that makes the powerfull races stronger and the desperate races even weaker !4 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's not that some are worse then others it's that others are waaaay better. If your race doesn't have 256 weapon and spell damage then they should have something considerable as a passive. Not 6% healing (trash). Wood elf should have a stealth detection passive again and the pen bonus should be brought up to at least 1000-1200.7 -
JohnOfMarkarth✭✭✭
Why sell yer lads so short? I mean really... will ye accept that lanky banana knife-ears will... outbrawn khajiits too? Really...?I can't do this anymore. Every small ... petit change that went against any semblance of sense has snowballed into an avalanche of (Penn & Teller:) Bulls...!
Gods, bless me with patience.0 -
Alendrin✭✭✭No way are Argonians the worst. The potion passive isn't what it used to be but its still pretty strong. Like the Nord ultimate gain, its not the kind of passive that is easily replaced with a jewelry trait change or glyph.
Redguards are the worst race. They are a stamina sustain race in a game where all the other sources of sustain have been massively buffed and even the damage races wear max damage gear and sustain just fine.2 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RandomKodiak wrote: »bosmer is pretty much useless now..
That 950 pen bonus is essentially a free 27 CP points that can be put into damage CPs. The new passive pen cp is 350 pen for 10 points/ 4 levels for 1400. Can't test right now but with them lowering (not to pre Markarth levels but halfway there) the extra regen might be handy on long fights. The 950 pen is definately nothing to sneeze at though. If the amount of pen to shoot for stays around 3200 for stam toons Bosmer are doing way better than they have been. If the number goes either way they are still in a pretty good spot since they will be able to put more points faster into damage CPs faster than other races.
And constantly dodge roll will not result in dps loss?? imo, it break my weaving.. plus dodge roll is not free, it cost stamina.. which make it harder to sustain. plus, roll break stealth....
buff only last 6 second.. it is not a 24/7 buff. Maybe if they increase buff duration to something like 30 sec. I tried on trial dummy, dodge roll only decrease my overall dps.
Lol. Looks like someone hasn't read the patchnotes properly.
With the nerf to Orcs and the (PvE) buff to Bosmer, Orcs and Bosmer are probably on equal footing now. Dunmer are #1 for stamina though and Redguards are at the bottom of the barrel still. Khajiit needs some testing done I think.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since this seems to be the current thread involving racials, I'll drop this here.
Lately, with the renewed talk about racial abilities, I (like others here) have been looking back at the previous Elder Scrolls games to compare the racial bonuses from this game to those games. My goal in doing so was to determine (A) how well the current racial passives held up to what we have seen previously and the established lore, and (B) to better understand why and how the racial passives in ESO are more impactful on build potential than they previously were.
There are some who would insist that (A) shouldn't even matter. That racial passives should be stripped away, and converted into set of choose-able bonuses and given a new name such as "Adventurer". While I understand these arguments, there does need to be a respect for the lore established in the previous games. The racial bonuses in these games helps exhibit the background, culture, and history of the different races. For instance, Bretons, being the manmer, the product of the mingling of Nedic/Nordic and Aldmer blood, boast racial passives in nearly all games that provide a boost to their ability to cast and protect against magic—the perfect mix of the magical prowess of mer and the hardiness of men. So, abandoning any sort of racial passives is abandoning established elements of lore.
But the argument of less end-game impactful race choices is appealing, and if one could create a Breton stealth archer or a Nordic mage in previous games with no difficulty, why should it not be possible in ESO? After all, High Rock is known for its Knightly Orders and Shalidor is one of the more well known magical figures. Should racial passives really be as impactful as they currently are?
Which brings me to (B), why are the racial passives in ESO more impactful than in previous games. First, compare the bonuses from previous games (ignoring the Greater Abilities gained by each class, since we are considering passives). For purposes of the comparison, we will continue using Breton.- In Skyrim, Bretons received as their passive bonuses 25% Resist Magic; +10 bonus to Conjuration; and +5 bonuses to Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Restoration, Speech. (See Skyrim: Races)
- In Oblivion, Bretons received bonuses to Intelligence and Willpower; reductions to Speed (M) or Strength (F) Agility, and, Endurance; +10 bonuses to Conjuration, Mysticism, and Restoration; +5 bonuses to Alchemy, Alteration, and Illusion; 50 Magic Resist; and +50 Magicka Bonus. (See Oblivion: Races)
- In Morrowind, Bretons received bonuses to Intelligence and Willpower; reductions to Speed (M) or Strength (F) Agility, and, Endurance; +10 bonuses to Conjuration, Mysticism, and Restoration; +5 bonuses to Alchemy, Alteration, and Illusion; 50 Magic Resist; and 0.50 Magicka Multiplier Bonus. (See Morrowind: Races)
In ESO, however, the racial bonuses are less important starting out and more important in the end-game; a reverse. Breton's +3000 Magicka bonus isn't a starting bonus, it's a bonus is gained in full closer to the end. (Even more impactful are those bonuses which provide Spell or Weapon Damage.). Looking back at our previous example, a Breton in ESO cannot wield a 2-Hander as effectively as a Nord since they miss out on a decent Stamina bonus. And a Nord cannot be as good a spell-caster since they miss out on the decent Magicka bonus.
It's like in the previous games, Bretons are those kids who pick up musical instruments quicker. They may be able to easily learn how to play piano or violin really well, but they are not going to be a pianist. They can end up a professional athlete or a business person just as well as the kid who was really good at football (soccer) could end up in a noteworthy orchestra. But in ESO, Bretons are kids who since they're good at piano or violin, are going to end up a pianist or part of an orchestra.
The issue in ESO, is that ZOS in designing an MMO as opposed to a Single Player RPG, chose a class system over the traditional ES skills. This meant that the only universal quantifiers for races to impact were Character Sheet stats. Rather than providing bonuses to a multitude of skills, each race has its universal skill that it learns quicker and then a collection of stats. This means that the racial bonuses are not starting points, but rather end
So, why bring this up? What's the point? Well, first it's begun some thoughts of my own regarding racial rebalancing (which I'm still working on). But more importantly, I wanted to bring to light why there are issues with racial passives in this game as compared to previous games and perhaps lend insight to fixing their effect. In order to truly rebalance the racial passives in a less restrictive manner, they need to be done in a manner that respects the previous games' lore while also minimizing their end-game impact. If they can be done in this manner, then it doesn't matter if a Breton has more Magic oriented passives opposed to a Nord with more Physical passives. Either would have the same potential to be a powerful mage or a great warrior. They'd just have an easier path towards one option over the other, instead of a weaker path as they do currently.
TLDR: Racial passives as they currently are approached add value later in the game, rather than the beginning as they did in previous games, this is what prevents more build-flexibility for different races. The solution is not to abandon racial passives, but to approach them in a different manner that is more impactful at start and less so at endgame.3 -
phantasmalD✭✭✭✭✭TLDR: Racial passives as they currently are approached add value later in the game, rather than the beginning as they did in previous games, this is what prevents more build-flexibility for different races. The solution is not to abandon racial passives, but to approach them in a different manner that is more impactful at start and less so at endgame.
The thing is, in a single player RPG the first 10-20 levels of your character is 90% of the playthrough. It's kind of presumed that you'd finish the game and start a new character by the time these bonuses become meaningless. Either because your character's in-universe story comes to a natural ending point (remember, these are roleplaying games, you are expected to act out a story) or because fights become so trivial that you get bored of the game or because you want to experience content that you are just straight up locked out of via, for example, faction incompabilities or branching quest paths.
Incombatible factions as a design principle was phased out of the series after Morrowind, but it originally was a core gameplay element, both to encourage multiple playthroughs and to increase immersion. You couldn't be a member of both House Telvanni or House Redoran, so you had to start a new character to experience those quests.
So yeah, in a single player game you'd have multiple short stories, roughly 50-100 hours per character. This is very evident when you look at something like the level up messages from Morrowind. Only the first 21 levels have unique messages. Dagoth Ur, the main antagonist, is lv35, and he is supposed to be unbeatably powerful.
In an MMO, and in ESO especially, you aren't really expected to start a new character and the story essentially never ends. The core gameplay loop is after you pass the gear cap and there's stuff that doesn't even become available until you leveled up enough (aka Vet DLC dungeons).
Personal experience:
I have 5k+ hours in ESO and only like ~200 of those were spent while under CP160. Have a few character, but my 90% of my time was spent on my main.
On the other hand I have 839 hours in Skyrim, had like 20+ characters and I don't think I ever went past lv30.Which brings me to (B), why are the racial passives in ESO more impactful than in previous games. First, compare the bonuses from previous games (ignoring the Greater Abilities gained by each class, since we are considering passives). For purposes of the comparison, we will continue using Breton.
You can't ignore Greater powers just because they have to be activated.
A; Having to activate them doesn't make them not a passive benefit of your race. [An active benefit would be something that you have to work to unlock, like a new perk in Skyrim]
B; there are several ESO racials that are similarly active passives, like for example: Resourceful - requires to actively consume a potion. Not that unsimilar to having to cast a spell to get better health generation (Histskin)
and C; they were often irreplacable; there was no other way to get effects like these. Like a crafted version of Orc:Berserk power would cost so much magicka it would be impossible to cast. Therefore these never truly become irrelevant.
Tl;dr: Basically, my point is: the passives are relevant and significant in both games, the core gameplay portion is just placed differently.
In a single player the game basically ends before you even reach the half way point to max level, in ESO the core gameplay is after you hit max level and never truly ends.Edited by phantasmalD on February 11, 2021 4:11PM1 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭phantasmalD wrote: »You can't ignore Greater powers just because they have to be activated.
A; Having to activate them doesn't make them not a passive benefit of your race. [An active benefit would be something that you have to work to unlock, like a new perk in Skyrim]
B; there are several ESO racials that are similarly active passives, like for example: Resourceful - requires to actively consume a potion. Not that unsimilar to having to cast a spell to get better health generation (Histskin)
and C; they were often irreplacable; there was no other way to get effects like these. Like a crafted version of Orc:Berserk power would cost so much magicka it would be impossible to cast. Therefore these never truly become irrelevant.
For clarity, I wasn't suggesting ignoring the Greater Powers altogether, but rather putting them aside for a moment for the sake of comparison which I was making between flat stat/skill/attribute increases in abilities which play more role in edging certain races towards particular roles in different games.
In Skyrim, one wouldn't look at the Hist-Skin ability as a deciding factor in whether they wanted to play a warrior or a thief or a mage. It might have use in any of those play-styles. What would make one consider an Argonian for a certain play-style though are the boosts to skills, which favor Mage or Thief. But, in Skyrim, Argonian is not one of a few "best" races for effective thieving, as that can be done on any race to equal effectiveness with enough time investment.
In ESO, similarly, one wouldn't look at the potion resource return passive as a deciding factor in desired role, as it could have benefit in any. But, they would look at the other boosts to stats as they would have more impact throughout the entirety of the game. Increases to Health and Magicka and Healing Done all point the character towards a certain role—Healer. And if the the player chooses to run a Stamina build on an Argonian, there will always be a disparity between them and players who chose other races.
Yes, ESO is an MMO, and that has to be considered when any decisions are made. And players are more drawn to completing all content on one character rather than experiencing the plethora of content on multiple. But, I think that makes the need to think about the impact that racial bonuses have in ESO currently more important. And one can sense the desire for that. In my time on the forums, I've seen countless threads about simply doing away with racial passives. About opening up the ability to more seamlessly switch between Mag and Stam. But, similar to how we cannot ignore altogether the Greater Powers of each race, we cannot simply ignore the lore that is behind racial passives.
What I was attempting to highlight was that we have to (A) respect the lore while (B) considering how the passives are impactful to what is possible in the game. It's a conundrum, created by the mechanics of the game that have been cemented over the years, where effectiveness in the game has become defined by mathematical DPS, so that any numerical advantage that can be gleaned will be more important than others. I'm not saying I have the end-all-be-all solution. Rather, I'm sharing some thoughts and observations that I feel may be useful in finding a better solution that what we currently have.Edited by ealdwin on February 11, 2021 5:50PM1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nordic__Knights wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Argonian
fits right in with the healer role lol
Argonians were never healers by lore. Why? Because of SELF HEAL racial in skyrim?
Its just zos excuse to make them bad on purpose
Btw even breton, ORC and high elf are better healers ( while high elf is also better damage dealer, stamina race orc got flat spell damage bonus now which is much stronger than argonians heal % buff)
We totally need moar Orc healers (not even kidding. From what I understand, they have a rich history in alchemy and some wives of chiefs are renowned in the arts of medicine and healing).Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Since this seems to be the current thread involving racials, I'll drop this here.TLDR: Racial passives as they currently are approached add value later in the game, rather than the beginning as they did in previous games, this is what prevents more build-flexibility for different races. The solution is not to abandon racial passives, but to approach them in a different manner that is more impactful at start and less so at endgame.
Lately, with the renewed talk about racial abilities, I (like others here) have been looking back at the previous Elder Scrolls games to compare the racial bonuses from this game to those games. My goal in doing so was to determine (A) how well the current racial passives held up to what we have seen previously and the established lore, and (B) to better understand why and how the racial passives in ESO are more impactful on build potential than they previously were.
There are some who would insist that (A) shouldn't even matter. That racial passives should be stripped away, and converted into set of choose-able bonuses and given a new name such as "Adventurer". While I understand these arguments, there does need to be a respect for the lore established in the previous games. The racial bonuses in these games helps exhibit the background, culture, and history of the different races. For instance, Bretons, being the manmer, the product of the mingling of Nedic/Nordic and Aldmer blood, boast racial passives in nearly all games that provide a boost to their ability to cast and protect against magic—the perfect mix of the magical prowess of mer and the hardiness of men. So, abandoning any sort of racial passives is abandoning established elements of lore.
But the argument of less end-game impactful race choices is appealing, and if one could create a Breton stealth archer or a Nordic mage in previous games with no difficulty, why should it not be possible in ESO? After all, High Rock is known for its Knightly Orders and Shalidor is one of the more well known magical figures. Should racial passives really be as impactful as they currently are?
Which brings me to (B), why are the racial passives in ESO more impactful than in previous games. First, compare the bonuses from previous games (ignoring the Greater Abilities gained by each class, since we are considering passives). For purposes of the comparison, we will continue using Breton.- In Skyrim, Bretons received as their passive bonuses 25% Resist Magic; +10 bonus to Conjuration; and +5 bonuses to Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Restoration, Speech. (See Skyrim: Races)
- In Oblivion, Bretons received bonuses to Intelligence and Willpower; reductions to Speed (M) or Strength (F) Agility, and, Endurance; +10 bonuses to Conjuration, Mysticism, and Restoration; +5 bonuses to Alchemy, Alteration, and Illusion; 50 Magic Resist; and +50 Magicka Bonus. (See Oblivion: Races)
- In Morrowind, Bretons received bonuses to Intelligence and Willpower; reductions to Speed (M) or Strength (F) Agility, and, Endurance; +10 bonuses to Conjuration, Mysticism, and Restoration; +5 bonuses to Alchemy, Alteration, and Illusion; 50 Magic Resist; and 0.50 Magicka Multiplier Bonus. (See Morrowind: Races)
In ESO, however, the racial bonuses are less important starting out and more important in the end-game; a reverse. Breton's +3000 Magicka bonus isn't a starting bonus, it's a bonus is gained in full closer to the end. (Even more impactful are those bonuses which provide Spell or Weapon Damage.). Looking back at our previous example, a Breton in ESO cannot wield a 2-Hander as effectively as a Nord since they miss out on a decent Stamina bonus. And a Nord cannot be as good a spell-caster since they miss out on the decent Magicka bonus.
It's like in the previous games, Bretons are those kids who pick up musical instruments quicker. They may be able to easily learn how to play piano or violin really well, but they are not going to be a pianist. They can end up a professional athlete or a business person just as well as the kid who was really good at football (soccer) could end up in a noteworthy orchestra. But in ESO, Bretons are kids who since they're good at piano or violin, are going to end up a pianist or part of an orchestra.
The issue in ESO, is that ZOS in designing an MMO as opposed to a Single Player RPG, chose a class system over the traditional ES skills. This meant that the only universal quantifiers for races to impact were Character Sheet stats. Rather than providing bonuses to a multitude of skills, each race has its universal skill that it learns quicker and then a collection of stats. This means that the racial bonuses are not starting points, but rather end
So, why bring this up? What's the point? Well, first it's begun some thoughts of my own regarding racial rebalancing (which I'm still working on). But more importantly, I wanted to bring to light why there are issues with racial passives in this game as compared to previous games and perhaps lend insight to fixing their effect. In order to truly rebalance the racial passives in a less restrictive manner, they need to be done in a manner that respects the previous games' lore while also minimizing their end-game impact. If they can be done in this manner, then it doesn't matter if a Breton has more Magic oriented passives opposed to a Nord with more Physical passives. Either would have the same potential to be a powerful mage or a great warrior. They'd just have an easier path towards one option over the other, instead of a weaker path as they do currently.
Let's not forget that those were singeplayer games and in single player games you want to be able to do everything in one playthrough if you wish to instead of discovering later on that you made a bad choice at the start and can't do XYZ anymore because of it. Also quite a few bonuses, like powers and resistances would be perpetual until the late stages of the game.
As a multiplayer game ESO is a little different. Now we could work with starting bonuses too, but part of multiplayer games is comparing your build and your choices to the choices of others. Build choices are meant to be more meaningful here so everyone isn't playing the exact same character. Part of this is that races should be different from each other. A Breton DK shouldn't be the exact same as a Nord DK, otherwise your choice doesn't matter.
Sure, we could do away with racial passives completely to avoid the drama or have them be starting bonuses only, but I feel the game would lose meaningful depth if we did that.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since this seems to be the current thread involving racials, I'll drop this here.TLDR: Racial passives as they currently are approached add value later in the game, rather than the beginning as they did in previous games, this is what prevents more build-flexibility for different races. The solution is not to abandon racial passives, but to approach them in a different manner that is more impactful at start and less so at endgame.
Lately, with the renewed talk about racial abilities, I (like others here) have been looking back at the previous Elder Scrolls games to compare the racial bonuses from this game to those games. My goal in doing so was to determine (A) how well the current racial passives held up to what we have seen previously and the established lore, and (B) to better understand why and how the racial passives in ESO are more impactful on build potential than they previously were.
There are some who would insist that (A) shouldn't even matter. That racial passives should be stripped away, and converted into set of choose-able bonuses and given a new name such as "Adventurer". While I understand these arguments, there does need to be a respect for the lore established in the previous games. The racial bonuses in these games helps exhibit the background, culture, and history of the different races. For instance, Bretons, being the manmer, the product of the mingling of Nedic/Nordic and Aldmer blood, boast racial passives in nearly all games that provide a boost to their ability to cast and protect against magic—the perfect mix of the magical prowess of mer and the hardiness of men. So, abandoning any sort of racial passives is abandoning established elements of lore.
But the argument of less end-game impactful race choices is appealing, and if one could create a Breton stealth archer or a Nordic mage in previous games with no difficulty, why should it not be possible in ESO? After all, High Rock is known for its Knightly Orders and Shalidor is one of the more well known magical figures. Should racial passives really be as impactful as they currently are?
Which brings me to (B), why are the racial passives in ESO more impactful than in previous games. First, compare the bonuses from previous games (ignoring the Greater Abilities gained by each class, since we are considering passives). For purposes of the comparison, we will continue using Breton.- In Skyrim, Bretons received as their passive bonuses 25% Resist Magic; +10 bonus to Conjuration; and +5 bonuses to Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Restoration, Speech. (See Skyrim: Races)
- In Oblivion, Bretons received bonuses to Intelligence and Willpower; reductions to Speed (M) or Strength (F) Agility, and, Endurance; +10 bonuses to Conjuration, Mysticism, and Restoration; +5 bonuses to Alchemy, Alteration, and Illusion; 50 Magic Resist; and +50 Magicka Bonus. (See Oblivion: Races)
- In Morrowind, Bretons received bonuses to Intelligence and Willpower; reductions to Speed (M) or Strength (F) Agility, and, Endurance; +10 bonuses to Conjuration, Mysticism, and Restoration; +5 bonuses to Alchemy, Alteration, and Illusion; 50 Magic Resist; and 0.50 Magicka Multiplier Bonus. (See Morrowind: Races)
In ESO, however, the racial bonuses are less important starting out and more important in the end-game; a reverse. Breton's +3000 Magicka bonus isn't a starting bonus, it's a bonus is gained in full closer to the end. (Even more impactful are those bonuses which provide Spell or Weapon Damage.). Looking back at our previous example, a Breton in ESO cannot wield a 2-Hander as effectively as a Nord since they miss out on a decent Stamina bonus. And a Nord cannot be as good a spell-caster since they miss out on the decent Magicka bonus.
It's like in the previous games, Bretons are those kids who pick up musical instruments quicker. They may be able to easily learn how to play piano or violin really well, but they are not going to be a pianist. They can end up a professional athlete or a business person just as well as the kid who was really good at football (soccer) could end up in a noteworthy orchestra. But in ESO, Bretons are kids who since they're good at piano or violin, are going to end up a pianist or part of an orchestra.
The issue in ESO, is that ZOS in designing an MMO as opposed to a Single Player RPG, chose a class system over the traditional ES skills. This meant that the only universal quantifiers for races to impact were Character Sheet stats. Rather than providing bonuses to a multitude of skills, each race has its universal skill that it learns quicker and then a collection of stats. This means that the racial bonuses are not starting points, but rather end
So, why bring this up? What's the point? Well, first it's begun some thoughts of my own regarding racial rebalancing (which I'm still working on). But more importantly, I wanted to bring to light why there are issues with racial passives in this game as compared to previous games and perhaps lend insight to fixing their effect. In order to truly rebalance the racial passives in a less restrictive manner, they need to be done in a manner that respects the previous games' lore while also minimizing their end-game impact. If they can be done in this manner, then it doesn't matter if a Breton has more Magic oriented passives opposed to a Nord with more Physical passives. Either would have the same potential to be a powerful mage or a great warrior. They'd just have an easier path towards one option over the other, instead of a weaker path as they do currently.
Let's not forget that those were singeplayer games and in single player games you want to be able to do everything in one playthrough if you wish to instead of discovering later on that you made a bad choice at the start and can't do XYZ anymore because of it. Also quite a few bonuses, like powers and resistances would be perpetual until the late stages of the game.
As a multiplayer game ESO is a little different. Now we could work with starting bonuses too, but part of multiplayer games is comparing your build and your choices to the choices of others. Build choices are meant to be more meaningful here so everyone isn't playing the exact same character. Part of this is that races should be different from each other. A Breton DK shouldn't be the exact same as a Nord DK, otherwise your choice doesn't matter.
Sure, we could do away with racial passives completely to avoid the drama or have them be starting bonuses only, but I feel the game would lose meaningful depth if we did that.
And I agree. As an MMO, player choice in ESO should have some impact, and there should be differences between a Breton Dk and a Nord DK. And starting bonuses are tricky without the common skillset across all races for bonuses to apply to. Build choices, and likewise racial choices, should be different. But with the current racial abilities mainly amounting to mathematical bonuses to damage output, and the worth/strength of races being what that value is, it's clear that the answer to "What makes a Breton DK different than a Nord DK" is "Magicka vs. Stamina".
My investigation was to determine why that was in ESO vs. the Single Player titles, and to provide myself a starting point to determining if there were a way to keep the uniqueness between races while expanding the options available for playstyles on each race without resorting to widespread hybridization/homogenization. In essence, a solution that made racial abilities more impactful and meaningful than merely Magicka or Stamina. Where the question isn't is an Orc or a Redguard a better option for a warrior character, but rather how is an Orc warrior different than a Redguard warrior.0 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭Any race other than ork, altmer or dunmer.
But Argonians are the bottom. Still my main and half of my other chars are argonian. Don't understand why so many people hate lizards
If I had to guess, Argonian is the race with the least players playing it.
Not many people enjoy playing a lizard.
That may be the reason why it is more RP centered and less effective in combat.
Anyway, ZOS should buff the Argonian race so it will be better in combat.
Probably because they suck don't have the identity from the rest of the TES series. So lets see, Nords are already great tanks, Dunmer can from what I understand, can heal, magdps, and stamdps. (Clearly no bias there at all) though Argonians could do magic and stamina dps as well. They get nothing they were known for instead healer which was a left over passive in Skyrim they threw on us. which Dunmer can already do and tank which Argonians were never known for with that low 30 endurance across the series which Nords already do. So the Pact gets 2 tank races 2 races that can heal and one dps race? Yeahhhh I think I'd rather play the other games again. At least I can play an Argonian the way they were meant to be. My nephew wanted me to try this with him, he didn't like it but I ended up liking it till I found out Argonians aren't even anything they were in the other games. Instead just copy roles of what the other two races in the Pact can do most likely better. If the devs are going to play favorites, I see no reason to stick around. This games only worth logging in a few hours once in a while to RP with my friends and guild.2 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have nightblades of different races but it feels like I'm playing on hardmode when on my argonian version. Same gear, same skills just not as effective passives. I'd at least like to get a title that will let everyone know I'm playing on hardmode and maybe get bonus ap. 😉1 -
DreadDaedroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭Argonians always get nerfed. Potion passive reduced by more than 1000 resources value, 6%healing done it's simply boring.2 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭How can lizard people secretly control the real world? They are garbage even in virtual ones4 -
hakan✭✭✭✭✭In terms of DPS, it's Argonians, because Argonians have 1k max stamina/magicka as their only offensive boost since sustain is irrelevant. Argonians are however decent healers and decent tanks (decent - not good, but at least not bad).
In terms of everything, it's Redguards, because they are at the bottom of the stamina barrel with 2k max stamina as their only offensive bonus, slightly ahead of Argonians as stamina dps, probably even with Imperials now while Imperials are also great tanks, and 950 Physical Penetration behind Bosmer. Even Altmer are now better stamina DPS because 258 weapon damage just means so much more than 2k stamina.
this right there.
argos are pretty fun imo.1 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭In terms of DPS, it's Argonians, because Argonians have 1k max stamina/magicka as their only offensive boost since sustain is irrelevant. Argonians are however decent healers and decent tanks (decent - not good, but at least not bad).
In terms of everything, it's Redguards, because they are at the bottom of the stamina barrel with 2k max stamina as their only offensive bonus, slightly ahead of Argonians as stamina dps, probably even with Imperials now while Imperials are also great tanks, and 950 Physical Penetration behind Bosmer. Even Altmer are now better stamina DPS because 258 weapon damage just means so much more than 2k stamina.
Wow if this is true and they both are indeed the worst, just wow. Well I'll wait till after the next racial tweaks for the PTS and see what they do.1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In terms of DPS, it's Argonians, because Argonians have 1k max stamina/magicka as their only offensive boost since sustain is irrelevant. Argonians are however decent healers and decent tanks (decent - not good, but at least not bad).
In terms of everything, it's Redguards, because they are at the bottom of the stamina barrel with 2k max stamina as their only offensive bonus, slightly ahead of Argonians as stamina dps, probably even with Imperials now while Imperials are also great tanks, and 950 Physical Penetration behind Bosmer. Even Altmer are now better stamina DPS because 258 weapon damage just means so much more than 2k stamina.
Wow if this is true and they both are indeed the worst, just wow. Well I'll wait till after the next racial tweaks for the PTS and see what they do.
Tweaks? You are much more optimistic about the pts then I am. I have been waiting years for them to acknowledge and fix that awful “stealth detect” passive they inflicted on wood elves.1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In terms of DPS, it's Argonians, because Argonians have 1k max stamina/magicka as their only offensive boost since sustain is irrelevant. Argonians are however decent healers and decent tanks (decent - not good, but at least not bad).
In terms of everything, it's Redguards, because they are at the bottom of the stamina barrel with 2k max stamina as their only offensive bonus, slightly ahead of Argonians as stamina dps, probably even with Imperials now while Imperials are also great tanks, and 950 Physical Penetration behind Bosmer. Even Altmer are now better stamina DPS because 258 weapon damage just means so much more than 2k stamina.
Wow if this is true and they both are indeed the worst, just wow. Well I'll wait till after the next racial tweaks for the PTS and see what they do.
My guess, and also my fear, is that ZOS is happy with how Racial Passives are now on PTS and they won't touch them for another two years at least once it goes live.
Redguards need something, Argonians need to have their passives untangled from potions if buffing is not an option so they can have a clear strength to call their own and Bosmer need their stealth back.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.3 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭Honestly I was more shocked about something else but it's way too bad to be true, at least I hope. I mean I searched around a bit and no other game with a reptilian race has this much hate. It almost feels like Argonians are a substitute so they can hide it better. I just hope it's coincidence, but after last 4 years man that is just bad I don't even know what to say considering it's a game. Seriously do they actually listen to the PTS feedback or get it somewhere else? I wanted to wait and see but, I can't help but notice a few things. That's it I went from shocked to pissed, ZoS needs to step up and stop using the bs excuse no name no shame to let people use so called "Fake" racism. You can't say anything bad about this game even a little, but they allow that? I didn't even say anything that bad about the game and they deleted my post and gave me a warning. How is that worse? I'm starting to question a lot right now. I mean they have an RP section in the forums, yet I see more people RP in the other sections, and it's always racist bile. I can understand in game RP like a real RP not zone chat, but the forums and in sections not for it? I mean I figured a game like this would attract certain people but, wtf. So I watched a video of a person spewing real life racism in game. Someone got annoyed went and killed him in pvp, said this person is still playing in 2021 and the video was from 2020. So because the game has fantasy racism you don't ban real racists? I think I learned all I need to, any other game I played since EQ in 1999 would ban people like that. I hate to keep editing but, I've never been so shocked before. With everything going on, you would think people would be decent and tone it back. I want to trust people, but wow it feels like it's the Twilight Zone. I can't believe people don't stop and think "Wait a minute, this might not be appropriate." no they dive right in. I'm sorry if you don't care, but that is just crazy to me. I'm not anything like that so, yeah my faith in humanity is running on fumes these days.Edited by Koronach on February 14, 2021 10:28PM1
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BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Honestly I was more shocked about something else but it's way too bad to be true, at least I hope. I mean I searched around a bit and no other game with a reptilian race has this much hate. It almost feels like Argonians are a substitute so they can hide it better. I just hope it's coincidence, but after last 4 years man that is just bad I don't even know what to say considering it's a game. Seriously do they actually listen to the PTS feedback or get it somewhere else? I wanted to wait and see but, I can't help but notice a few things. That's it I went from shocked to pissed, ZoS needs to step up and stop using the bs excuse no name no shame to let people use so called "Fake" racism. You can't say anything bad about this game even a little, but they allow that? I didn't even say anything that bad about the game and they deleted my post and gave me a warning. How is that worse? I'm starting to question a lot right now. I mean they have an RP section in the forums, yet I see more people RP in the other sections, and it's always racist bile. I can understand in game RP like a real RP not zone chat, but the forums and in sections not for it? I mean I figured a game like this would attract certain people but, wtf. So I watched a video of a person spewing real life racism in game. Someone got annoyed went and killed him in pvp, said this person is still playing in 2021 and the video was from 2020. So because the game has fantasy racism you don't ban real racists? I think I learned all I need to, any other game I played since EQ in 1999 would ban people like that.
I don’t think it’s “racism”, rather I think the combat team has good ideas for about four races and they just phoned the rest in. The racials in many cases seem to come out of nowhere, like they don’t have any reference or lore notes about what they should or could be. The fact that some of the races are still passable in some roles feels a bit like blind luck.
They have had two years to work on these racials.
Two. Years.
And this is the best they came up with?
They took a big swing on cp, they could not take a big swing on how racials are done as well? Was there not enough time?2
