PvP zones should NOT be turned into PVE zones

B0SSzombie · February 2021

It's always funny when PVP players whine that "If you take away the PVE players the servers will be dead."

If the content would actually die if the percentage of players in it that don't actually want to participate in it leave, then maybe it's not great content? If Cyrodiil and IC need PVE players to sustain it, that's not balance, it's life support.

If the Bay of a City is full of Fish and Sharks, and all the Fish decide to leave instead of being eaten all the time, and the Sharks die, then that environment was never properly suited to have Sharks in the first place.

Mik195 · February 2021

Ok, how about allowing you to kill people of your own alliance within xx feet/meters of a town quest giver? The town quests are about civilians trying to survive in a war zone so by ganking the player, you are essentially killing the Tamriel Mercenary Red Cross. So making ganking riskier (you aren't safe from anyone), the alliances can help keep the gankers to a minimum.

illusiouk · February 2021

I agree with the title of this thread because like most PvE zone they would just turn into dead zones once completed.

Goregrinder · February 2021

B0SSzombie wrote: »

It's always funny when PVP players whine that "If you take away the PVE players the servers will be dead."

If the content would actually die if the percentage of players in it that don't actually want to participate in it leave, then maybe it's not great content?

If the Bay of a City is full of Fish and Sharks, and all the Fish decide to leave instead of being eaten all the time, and the Sharks die, then that environment was never properly suited to have Sharks in the first place.

Are you saying that all forms of PVP in any game in existence is dumb, and that PVE is better because NPC's are smarter than human being controlled characters, so killing NPC's are a harder test than killing players and require more skills, thus making PVPers so beneath PVErs?

Or do you just mean specifically PVP in ESO isn't good and needs work, especially compared to other PVP MMO's?

Minyassa · February 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

For the players who only want to quest and explore, I'd be fine with a safe PVE only option as long as there are no rewards.

No skyshards, no leads, no AP, no Tel Var, no achievements, no fish.

If all you want is questing and exploration, then let the story be its own reward!

But when you want the rewards of a PvPvE zone, you should play it as the Devs intended, which includes the risk of PVP.

(Its my experience that some PVEers just want to quest. They'll take that deal! Its also my experience that most PVEers really want a risk-free path to the rewards of a PvPvE zone, and a number of them get really bothered by the idea of "no risk of PVP, no rewards.")

If skyshards, leads and fish are a reward for risk equivalent to PvP then they need to *all* be relocated inside of group content. Fair is fair. To make skyshards as difficult to get in PvE Tamriel as they are in PvP Tamriel, some should be in a locked room that doesn't open until the dungeon or trial boss is killed and we should have to wait until that's done for them to be open, and then we should still have to fight more trash mobs while going after them, and the easiest ones should still be behind packs of roving mobs, some of which should be stealthed and have a one-shot mechanic if you aren't properly geared for that dungeon.

I'm not saying they are "risk equivalent." Obviously, PvPvE zones have an additional, yet fully intended level of risk with PVP. I mean...duh! The Devs didn't somehow forget that PVP can happen while skyshard hunting or fishing in a PvPvE zone, you know?

I am saying that players should play PVE zones as intended and PvPvE zones as intended. I note that a number of players who want the rewards of PvPvE zones with no risk of PVP are explicitly desiring to NOT play with the risks the Devs intended.

This isn't hard.

The Devs put a lead inside an Imperial City boss; they didn't forget that unlike every other world boss lead, Imperial City has the additional risk of PVP. They intended that players face the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone to get that specific lead.

The Devs put skyshards in Cyrodiil; they didn't forget that Cyrodiil is a PvPvE zone especially when they put 4 skyshards behind enemy gates and others deep in enemy territory. They intended that players face the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone for those and all the other Cyrodiil skyshards.

No, PVE risks in a PVE-only zone and PVP risks in a PvPvE zone aren't equivalent. They are distinctly different types of zones each with different, yet still fully intended levels of risk.

Why do you think you deserve the rewards of a PvPvE zone when you take away the intended risk of PVP?

(And as someone who does PVE group content as well as PVP, I'm not going to whine over your proposed change. I'll just note that its focusing on creating a false equivalency when that's not the point. ZOS intended players to roam hunting skyshards, etc. around PVE-only zones with the risks of PVE. ZOS intended players to roam hunting skyshards etc. around PvPvE zones with the risks of PvPvE. It just so happens that certain players really, really want to avoid the risks of PvPvE while still asking for the rewards.)

I just don't see skyshards as rewards. They are world features and everywhere else you can run up to them and they only very *rarely* have a mob anywhere near them, and when they do it's a visible one that's easy to deal with beforehand and doesn't respawn while you're using the skyshard. I honestly think they should remove the skyshards from Cyrodiil and IC. Same with fishing. It makes no sense to put most of them where there's no effort whatsoever and then gate some behind something that is anathema to a lot of players. No PvP player will ever be prevented from getting a skyshard in PvE-land, that's impossible. Now, SOME leads it makes sense to have that risk, if they relate to PvP gear or even mythical PvE gear that would be used in endgame content. But skyshards, fishing, and toy leads? They're lying around everywhere else and then suddenly in Cyrodiil and IC they're worth getting killed over and over and over for? What are they the reward for in PvE besides proving that you know how to make your character walk to a place? It's really uneven.

So when players talk about the stuff they want out of Cyrodiil and Imperial City with no risks, typically its the achievements, the skyshards, the quests, the fish, event tickets, anniversary boxes, etc. I characterize those all as "rewards", since you get them by participating in the zones.

Yes, its uneven. As I pointed out, ZOS is fully aware that PvPvE zones have an additional, yet intended layer of risk of PvP, and they still put those "rewards" in there.

I could get behind removal as an option. That strongly incentivizes coming to PVP zones like Cyrodiil and Imperial City for explicitly PVP-related reasons, while removing the element of "I'm a PVE-only player who hates PVP but I really want "Tamriel Skyshard Hunter" or "Master Angler."" A lot of those base-game-inclusive titles/achievements/dyes are that way originally because Cyrodiil is part of the base game.

On the one hand, I eventually became a PVPer because I wanted that Master Angler title. On the other, I get that the "fear of missing out" is a powerful and very uncomfortable motivator that ZOS likes to use to get people into PvPvE zones. Whether its event tickets during MYM, fish for Master Angler, or leads in Imperial City, I understand that its unpleasant to feel torn between "do I do this content I dislike for this "reward" I want" or "do I miss out on the "reward" to avoid content I dislike." I've been there myself.

My preferred option is to leave things as they are. I think that players should play content as its intended and that, if they dislike it, they can make their own decision to do it or skip it without getting the rewards. I think that it's necessary for players to conquer their "fear of missing out", rather than asking for rewards for content they want to skip. Though I do think ZOS could use less FOMO in their events overall, and especially MYM - let people get all the tickets from whichever PVP activity/quest they want.

But I suppose I'm biased, since my decision that I wanted Master Angler enough to head into Cyrodiil got me into PVP, which I eventually realized I enjoy.

Yeah. I mean, I can see your side as well, but what you mentioned last...I think we are all biased depending upon our own personal experiences in Cyrodiil/IC and impressions very quickly become definitions. I know a lot of players who love PvP and were introduced to it via fishing. I also know a lot of players, myself included, who were very open to PvP and dipped their toe in via fishing, were promised that it's Not That Bad and got slammed with nastiness so hard our heads spun. My experience with trying to complete Master Angler in Cyrodiil was an ordeal of constant anxiety after my first few encounters with people who not only slaughtered me despite my attempts to fight back, run, signal that I wasn't after a fight, or fish with stealth, but then hate-whispered me for being too easy to kill, as if being new to PvP is somehow a sin worthy of mockery. It was hellish, and set the tone for my approaches to Cyrodiil from then on. I have since made more attempts to get into it just for the sake of my friends and for my own sanity because I do want the rewards that require earning AP (basically the dyes), and it would be better for me if it wasn't stressful as hell. At every turn I have been confronted by nasty players doing their best to make it personal by being insulting or unnecessarily cruel in gesture. It has improved my outlook not one bit, and instead sent me to the forums to look up your guides on how to do the PvP events without engaging in combat--very helpful, by the way. I can now go into Cyrodiil and grind wall repairs without having a panic attack because I go in the wee hours of morning when the campaigns are empty and have no AP bonuses, so it will be a long grind. But try as I might I don't think I will ever be able to shake the impression that Cyrodiil is for people who have a hate-on for life to vicariously take that out on anonymous strangers rather than a place for people to play a competitive game for fun. And that's where a lot of these suggestions are coming from, I think.

B0SSzombie · February 2021

Goregrinder wrote: »

B0SSzombie wrote: »

It's always funny when PVP players whine that "If you take away the PVE players the servers will be dead."

If the content would actually die if the percentage of players in it that don't actually want to participate in it leave, then maybe it's not great content?

If the Bay of a City is full of Fish and Sharks, and all the Fish decide to leave instead of being eaten all the time, and the Sharks die, then that environment was never properly suited to have Sharks in the first place.

Are you saying that all forms of PVP in any game in existence is dumb, and that PVE is better because NPC's are smarter than human being controlled characters, so killing NPC's are a harder test than killing players and require more skills, thus making PVPers so beneath PVErs?

Or do you just mean specifically PVP in ESO isn't good and needs work, especially compared to other PVP MMO's?

I didn't say that at all? Are you quoting the right post? What are you even talking about?

My point was that if the only way to sustain PVP in this game is to have PVE players to prey on, who don't even want PVP in the first place, then it's not well designed.

If all the PVE players just decided tomorrow to never play PVP content again, would Cyrodiil and Imperial City survive?

If the answer is No, then the fault lies in poorly designed PVP content.

If the answer is Yes, then there's literally no reason to have PVE and PVP distinct Zones.

Thannazzar · February 2021

How about this, PVErs will stop asking for PVE versions of PVP zones when PVPrs stop asking for balance changes that detrimentally effect PVE players!

Goregrinder · February 2021

Minyassa wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

For the players who only want to quest and explore, I'd be fine with a safe PVE only option as long as there are no rewards.

No skyshards, no leads, no AP, no Tel Var, no achievements, no fish.

If all you want is questing and exploration, then let the story be its own reward!

But when you want the rewards of a PvPvE zone, you should play it as the Devs intended, which includes the risk of PVP.

(Its my experience that some PVEers just want to quest. They'll take that deal! Its also my experience that most PVEers really want a risk-free path to the rewards of a PvPvE zone, and a number of them get really bothered by the idea of "no risk of PVP, no rewards.")

If skyshards, leads and fish are a reward for risk equivalent to PvP then they need to *all* be relocated inside of group content. Fair is fair. To make skyshards as difficult to get in PvE Tamriel as they are in PvP Tamriel, some should be in a locked room that doesn't open until the dungeon or trial boss is killed and we should have to wait until that's done for them to be open, and then we should still have to fight more trash mobs while going after them, and the easiest ones should still be behind packs of roving mobs, some of which should be stealthed and have a one-shot mechanic if you aren't properly geared for that dungeon.

I'm not saying they are "risk equivalent." Obviously, PvPvE zones have an additional, yet fully intended level of risk with PVP. I mean...duh! The Devs didn't somehow forget that PVP can happen while skyshard hunting or fishing in a PvPvE zone, you know?

I am saying that players should play PVE zones as intended and PvPvE zones as intended. I note that a number of players who want the rewards of PvPvE zones with no risk of PVP are explicitly desiring to NOT play with the risks the Devs intended.

This isn't hard.

The Devs put a lead inside an Imperial City boss; they didn't forget that unlike every other world boss lead, Imperial City has the additional risk of PVP. They intended that players face the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone to get that specific lead.

The Devs put skyshards in Cyrodiil; they didn't forget that Cyrodiil is a PvPvE zone especially when they put 4 skyshards behind enemy gates and others deep in enemy territory. They intended that players face the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone for those and all the other Cyrodiil skyshards.

No, PVE risks in a PVE-only zone and PVP risks in a PvPvE zone aren't equivalent. They are distinctly different types of zones each with different, yet still fully intended levels of risk.

Why do you think you deserve the rewards of a PvPvE zone when you take away the intended risk of PVP?

(And as someone who does PVE group content as well as PVP, I'm not going to whine over your proposed change. I'll just note that its focusing on creating a false equivalency when that's not the point. ZOS intended players to roam hunting skyshards, etc. around PVE-only zones with the risks of PVE. ZOS intended players to roam hunting skyshards etc. around PvPvE zones with the risks of PvPvE. It just so happens that certain players really, really want to avoid the risks of PvPvE while still asking for the rewards.)

I just don't see skyshards as rewards. They are world features and everywhere else you can run up to them and they only very *rarely* have a mob anywhere near them, and when they do it's a visible one that's easy to deal with beforehand and doesn't respawn while you're using the skyshard. I honestly think they should remove the skyshards from Cyrodiil and IC. Same with fishing. It makes no sense to put most of them where there's no effort whatsoever and then gate some behind something that is anathema to a lot of players. No PvP player will ever be prevented from getting a skyshard in PvE-land, that's impossible. Now, SOME leads it makes sense to have that risk, if they relate to PvP gear or even mythical PvE gear that would be used in endgame content. But skyshards, fishing, and toy leads? They're lying around everywhere else and then suddenly in Cyrodiil and IC they're worth getting killed over and over and over for? What are they the reward for in PvE besides proving that you know how to make your character walk to a place? It's really uneven.

So when players talk about the stuff they want out of Cyrodiil and Imperial City with no risks, typically its the achievements, the skyshards, the quests, the fish, event tickets, anniversary boxes, etc. I characterize those all as "rewards", since you get them by participating in the zones.

Yes, its uneven. As I pointed out, ZOS is fully aware that PvPvE zones have an additional, yet intended layer of risk of PvP, and they still put those "rewards" in there.

I could get behind removal as an option. That strongly incentivizes coming to PVP zones like Cyrodiil and Imperial City for explicitly PVP-related reasons, while removing the element of "I'm a PVE-only player who hates PVP but I really want "Tamriel Skyshard Hunter" or "Master Angler."" A lot of those base-game-inclusive titles/achievements/dyes are that way originally because Cyrodiil is part of the base game.

On the one hand, I eventually became a PVPer because I wanted that Master Angler title. On the other, I get that the "fear of missing out" is a powerful and very uncomfortable motivator that ZOS likes to use to get people into PvPvE zones. Whether its event tickets during MYM, fish for Master Angler, or leads in Imperial City, I understand that its unpleasant to feel torn between "do I do this content I dislike for this "reward" I want" or "do I miss out on the "reward" to avoid content I dislike." I've been there myself.

My preferred option is to leave things as they are. I think that players should play content as its intended and that, if they dislike it, they can make their own decision to do it or skip it without getting the rewards. I think that it's necessary for players to conquer their "fear of missing out", rather than asking for rewards for content they want to skip. Though I do think ZOS could use less FOMO in their events overall, and especially MYM - let people get all the tickets from whichever PVP activity/quest they want.

But I suppose I'm biased, since my decision that I wanted Master Angler enough to head into Cyrodiil got me into PVP, which I eventually realized I enjoy.

Yeah. I mean, I can see your side as well, but what you mentioned last...I think we are all biased depending upon our own personal experiences in Cyrodiil/IC and impressions very quickly become definitions. I know a lot of players who love PvP and were introduced to it via fishing. I also know a lot of players, myself included, who were very open to PvP and dipped their toe in via fishing, were promised that it's Not That Bad and got slammed with nastiness so hard our heads spun. My experience with trying to complete Master Angler in Cyrodiil was an ordeal of constant anxiety after my first few encounters with people who not only slaughtered me despite my attempts to fight back, run, signal that I wasn't after a fight, or fish with stealth, but then hate-whispered me for being too easy to kill, as if being new to PvP is somehow a sin worthy of mockery. It was hellish, and set the tone for my approaches to Cyrodiil from then on. I have since made more attempts to get into it just for the sake of my friends and for my own sanity because I do want the rewards that require earning AP (basically the dyes), and it would be better for me if it wasn't stressful as hell. At every turn I have been confronted by nasty players doing their best to make it personal by being insulting or unnecessarily cruel in gesture. It has improved my outlook not one bit, and instead sent me to the forums to look up your guides on how to do the PvP events without engaging in combat--very helpful, by the way. I can now go into Cyrodiil and grind wall repairs without having a panic attack because I go in the wee hours of morning when the campaigns are empty and have no AP bonuses, so it will be a long grind. But try as I might I don't think I will ever be able to shake the impression that Cyrodiil is for people who have a hate-on for life to vicariously take that out on anonymous strangers rather than a place for people to play a competitive game for fun. And that's where a lot of these suggestions are coming from, I think.

That's the thing though. When you're in a PVP zone, it doesn't matter how players PVP, just that they PVP. The only real "rule" is that when you're in a PVP zone, PVP will happen. I see players with all kinds of gentleman rules they think other people should have when it comes to PVP, and I even see it from other PVPers too (which I find amusing). Rules like: "Oh you're a ganker? Try playing a real build.." "Oh you just kill questers huh? real mature..." or "Oh you just run proc sets and stack health? Ezpz, where's the skill..." or "Oh you just run cheese builds huh? No real builds that take skill....", I could go on and on.

I think it's dumb to have imaginary rules set, and expect other people to participate in them. And if they don't participate using your personal imaginary rules, you chastise them for it. It would be like me suddenly walking up to you at target and being like "You know it's Wednesday right....why didn't you wear pink? You're supposed to wear pink on Wednesdays.....how dare you wear a different color!...I'm reporting you to the police!...."

You'd probably think I was crazy or psycho right? Like who is this dude telling me I'm supposed to only wear a certain color on a certain day right? It would seem pretty illogical to report someone not following imaginary rules to the authorities don't you think?

TheForFeeF · February 2021

Goregrinder wrote: »

TheForFeeF wrote: »

Sure, not all PvPers are the problem here - however, its the select few that decide to gank are the issue. And its a constant issue, not like a certain time of day or week or zone. I gave up on IC, which sucks because I aim to get all the quests done in ESO.

Its not like I even need to get good or something - I was doing the "arena" quest early on, and during that, I kept getting ganked. After 2-3 attempts I just gave up because they were waiting there for me. Tell me - how can I play differently to complete that quest? I am focusing on mobs, so I can't sneak or use invis pots.

At that point, they weren't even doing it for the Telvar since I had none on me. They were just trolling.

PvP and PvE doesn't belong in the same zone at all, it creates too much of a conflict.

I only gank on my Nightblade, it's really the best class for it. I brawl on my DK and Necro. Either way you're right, PVE shouldn't have to PVP to get what they want, and PVPers shouldn't have to PVE to get the gear they need. Everything should have PVE or PVP options: Leveling, Mythic/Arena Gear, Event tickets, CP, farming mats, etc. It should be equal to both types of players.

That way 100% of the player base can choose how they want to play the game.

So much this.

They way it should be is if you're creating a new account, you have to hit the level 10 barrier before getting into PvP. After that, with any toon you create, you should be allowed to PvP from the start if you so wish.

You should also only be able to get PvP gear from PvP, and same for PvE.

Forcing players into zones to get 100% completion to do content that they don't want to do is how you create dead content. E.g: Craglorn before the solo-nerf.

erio · February 2021

Kurat wrote: »

erio wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

erio wrote: »

MrGhosty wrote: »

I'm sure there are some that want something for nothing, but most PvErs asking for this are talking about wanting to complete the quests and explore the city without getting ganked from stealth as they reach a quest objective. Also there is already an option for you if you don't want to have to run PvE stuff, you can grind out gold and pay for a carry. I am someone who would very much love a PvE instance of IC to allow me to do daily quests and complete the story quest but it should come with either drastically reduced tel var gains or none, random world drop loot instead of IC sets and not have any of the associated polymorphs or other special rewards available. At the same time, PvP IC should get a much needed update with a bunch of new collectibles to go after and really give it a nice round of polish. Doing it this way ensures the people who are able to do both will probably keep trying PvP IC but for those unable/unwilling to PvP they can at least get their event collectible tickets. Everyone wins because most of the people that would use a PvE IC aren't going to pvp anyway so let them get their new shiny event bauble.

I dont understand whats stopping you from doing that, just put on some pvp build, git gud, and go for it.
Or hire a bodyguard
A Pvpve zone is pvp with some pve elements, and should not be pve.

Same goes for you in dungeons. But most PVPers dont bother changing their build. They rather spam dizzy in heavy armor and leech on others. This is why I give them their own medicine, kick.

Youll still clear the dungeon in like 10 mins. Theyre so braindead easy.
The thing about pvp players, is that any half decent one actually understands the game. They know how mechanics work, and im telling you, from my perspective, and my guildies, its not a hard switch from pvp to pve. Clearly the switch from pve to pvp isnt like that.

Sure you can clear vet dlcs in 10 min. Dungeons are so braindead easy because you're in heavy armor, often more hp than the tank and being carried hard without you even realizing. Everyone seems to be real pro in forums but the reality is that they only pull 10k or less dps, use leap on mobs that tank grouped nicely so they go flying all over, root or stun mobs so tank cant chain them, NBs use teleporting strike on bosses, spam snipe or dizzy lmao. And at the end of dungeon say GG.
I don't care about normal dungeons, they are braindead easy indeed but to come in vet dlc and think you're pulling your weight lol. Most PVPers say that pve is easy and pvp is the real endgame. So all you Goodslayers rather play horse riding simulator and gank unsuspecting pve guesters. That's the real challenge.

Dude, first of all, I dont even wear heavy armor in pvp. I wear medium. Secondly, I wear light on my dps toon. Its silly of you to equate pvp to automatically wearing heavy armor. I did vet scalecaller peak hm with some pvp guildies for zaan, we cleared it half an hour and only wiped once cause our healer dced.

Dude youre literally just describing bad pvers as pvp players. Nice try

I was talking about vet dungeons in my original post. They literally take like 10-20 mins on average depending on the group. They are easy. Each boss has like one mechanic, and trash packs die in like 2 seconds. If anything im carrying the other people in the group. As for dlc dungeons, theyre just a tiny step above that.

Goodslayers? what?

ArchMikem · February 2021

erio wrote: »

Well Im a pvp player, and I dont want to learn how to pve properly. I dont want to dedicate time to earning my rewards, I just want to stick to what im good at. Since I love pvp so much, and im not good at pve - I demand a special instance of Vet Sunspire that caters to my pvp skills and lack of pve knowledge. In this special instance, I cannot die, but I can earn all the benefits and rewards!

So...playing the content on Normal then? If you wanted the gear you don't need to run it on veteran. Your comparison is flawed, since all PvPers have to do is run Normal difficulty if Vet is too hard.

At the same time, PvErs can't just turn down the difficulty in Cyrodiil in order to make you guys easier to fight.

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

From what I understand, PVE players go in with PVE in mind not equipped for PVP. Honestly it really wouldn't matter what they had on as they lack the skill set for PVP anyway. Unlike PVE, in PVP a PC can think an NPC can't. If you want to PVP, why are you going after PVE players that probably lack the skills and knowledge of PVP and can't really fight back? Shouldn't you like be going after you know, other PVPers that can actually give you a challenge? Cyro and IC just seem like bait to me, luring in PVE players to be fodder for PVP players so they can stroke their ego's.

There is no such thing as a pve player in IC or Cyro. Once you enter those zones you are a pvp player. How unprepared they are is irrelevant.

As someone said earlier, it must take epic skill to kill people talking to a quest npc. Like I said those area's are just bait since it plays off peoples nostalgia from TES IV. By adding PVE content it's basically almost trolling.

Yeah it’s cheesy to kill someone in an npc dialogue, but maybe put your buffs and hots up before talking to an npc instead of whining because you were not prepared to pvp in a pvp zone.

How about sticking to Keeps instead of camping Quest Givers for easy targets?

VaranisArano · February 2021

Minyassa wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

For the players who only want to quest and explore, I'd be fine with a safe PVE only option as long as there are no rewards.

No skyshards, no leads, no AP, no Tel Var, no achievements, no fish.

If all you want is questing and exploration, then let the story be its own reward!

But when you want the rewards of a PvPvE zone, you should play it as the Devs intended, which includes the risk of PVP.

(Its my experience that some PVEers just want to quest. They'll take that deal! Its also my experience that most PVEers really want a risk-free path to the rewards of a PvPvE zone, and a number of them get really bothered by the idea of "no risk of PVP, no rewards.")

If skyshards, leads and fish are a reward for risk equivalent to PvP then they need to *all* be relocated inside of group content. Fair is fair. To make skyshards as difficult to get in PvE Tamriel as they are in PvP Tamriel, some should be in a locked room that doesn't open until the dungeon or trial boss is killed and we should have to wait until that's done for them to be open, and then we should still have to fight more trash mobs while going after them, and the easiest ones should still be behind packs of roving mobs, some of which should be stealthed and have a one-shot mechanic if you aren't properly geared for that dungeon.

I'm not saying they are "risk equivalent." Obviously, PvPvE zones have an additional, yet fully intended level of risk with PVP. I mean...duh! The Devs didn't somehow forget that PVP can happen while skyshard hunting or fishing in a PvPvE zone, you know?

I am saying that players should play PVE zones as intended and PvPvE zones as intended. I note that a number of players who want the rewards of PvPvE zones with no risk of PVP are explicitly desiring to NOT play with the risks the Devs intended.

This isn't hard.

The Devs put a lead inside an Imperial City boss; they didn't forget that unlike every other world boss lead, Imperial City has the additional risk of PVP. They intended that players face the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone to get that specific lead.

The Devs put skyshards in Cyrodiil; they didn't forget that Cyrodiil is a PvPvE zone especially when they put 4 skyshards behind enemy gates and others deep in enemy territory. They intended that players face the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone for those and all the other Cyrodiil skyshards.

No, PVE risks in a PVE-only zone and PVP risks in a PvPvE zone aren't equivalent. They are distinctly different types of zones each with different, yet still fully intended levels of risk.

Why do you think you deserve the rewards of a PvPvE zone when you take away the intended risk of PVP?

(And as someone who does PVE group content as well as PVP, I'm not going to whine over your proposed change. I'll just note that its focusing on creating a false equivalency when that's not the point. ZOS intended players to roam hunting skyshards, etc. around PVE-only zones with the risks of PVE. ZOS intended players to roam hunting skyshards etc. around PvPvE zones with the risks of PvPvE. It just so happens that certain players really, really want to avoid the risks of PvPvE while still asking for the rewards.)

I just don't see skyshards as rewards. They are world features and everywhere else you can run up to them and they only very *rarely* have a mob anywhere near them, and when they do it's a visible one that's easy to deal with beforehand and doesn't respawn while you're using the skyshard. I honestly think they should remove the skyshards from Cyrodiil and IC. Same with fishing. It makes no sense to put most of them where there's no effort whatsoever and then gate some behind something that is anathema to a lot of players. No PvP player will ever be prevented from getting a skyshard in PvE-land, that's impossible. Now, SOME leads it makes sense to have that risk, if they relate to PvP gear or even mythical PvE gear that would be used in endgame content. But skyshards, fishing, and toy leads? They're lying around everywhere else and then suddenly in Cyrodiil and IC they're worth getting killed over and over and over for? What are they the reward for in PvE besides proving that you know how to make your character walk to a place? It's really uneven.

So when players talk about the stuff they want out of Cyrodiil and Imperial City with no risks, typically its the achievements, the skyshards, the quests, the fish, event tickets, anniversary boxes, etc. I characterize those all as "rewards", since you get them by participating in the zones.

Yes, its uneven. As I pointed out, ZOS is fully aware that PvPvE zones have an additional, yet intended layer of risk of PvP, and they still put those "rewards" in there.

I could get behind removal as an option. That strongly incentivizes coming to PVP zones like Cyrodiil and Imperial City for explicitly PVP-related reasons, while removing the element of "I'm a PVE-only player who hates PVP but I really want "Tamriel Skyshard Hunter" or "Master Angler."" A lot of those base-game-inclusive titles/achievements/dyes are that way originally because Cyrodiil is part of the base game.

On the one hand, I eventually became a PVPer because I wanted that Master Angler title. On the other, I get that the "fear of missing out" is a powerful and very uncomfortable motivator that ZOS likes to use to get people into PvPvE zones. Whether its event tickets during MYM, fish for Master Angler, or leads in Imperial City, I understand that its unpleasant to feel torn between "do I do this content I dislike for this "reward" I want" or "do I miss out on the "reward" to avoid content I dislike." I've been there myself.

My preferred option is to leave things as they are. I think that players should play content as its intended and that, if they dislike it, they can make their own decision to do it or skip it without getting the rewards. I think that it's necessary for players to conquer their "fear of missing out", rather than asking for rewards for content they want to skip. Though I do think ZOS could use less FOMO in their events overall, and especially MYM - let people get all the tickets from whichever PVP activity/quest they want.

But I suppose I'm biased, since my decision that I wanted Master Angler enough to head into Cyrodiil got me into PVP, which I eventually realized I enjoy.

Yeah. I mean, I can see your side as well, but what you mentioned last...I think we are all biased depending upon our own personal experiences in Cyrodiil/IC and impressions very quickly become definitions. I know a lot of players who love PvP and were introduced to it via fishing. I also know a lot of players, myself included, who were very open to PvP and dipped their toe in via fishing, were promised that it's Not That Bad and got slammed with nastiness so hard our heads spun. My experience with trying to complete Master Angler in Cyrodiil was an ordeal of constant anxiety after my first few encounters with people who not only slaughtered me despite my attempts to fight back, run, signal that I wasn't after a fight, or fish with stealth, but then hate-whispered me for being too easy to kill, as if being new to PvP is somehow a sin worthy of mockery. It was hellish, and set the tone for my approaches to Cyrodiil from then on. I have since made more attempts to get into it just for the sake of my friends and for my own sanity because I do want the rewards that require earning AP (basically the dyes), and it would be better for me if it wasn't stressful as hell. At every turn I have been confronted by nasty players doing their best to make it personal by being insulting or unnecessarily cruel in gesture. It has improved my outlook not one bit, and instead sent me to the forums to look up your guides on how to do the PvP events without engaging in combat--very helpful, by the way. I can now go into Cyrodiil and grind wall repairs without having a panic attack because I go in the wee hours of morning when the campaigns are empty and have no AP bonuses, so it will be a long grind. But try as I might I don't think I will ever be able to shake the impression that Cyrodiil is for people who have a hate-on for life to vicariously take that out on anonymous strangers rather than a place for people to play a competitive game for fun. And that's where a lot of these suggestions are coming from, I think.

Hey, I'm glad those guides have been helpful. Good luck getting the dyes you want!

erio · February 2021

JJuponen wrote: »

Lots of PVPers are worried about losing easy(ish) kills if if PVE players are not forced into PVP instances, I think. Which would indicate that PVP in this game is not healthy itself.

Hardcore PVP player only tends to fail eventually...wonder why. Well, not really.

B0SSzombie wrote: »

It's always funny when PVP players whine that "If you take away the PVE players the servers will be dead."

If the content would actually die if the percentage of players in it that don't actually want to participate in it leave, then maybe it's not great content? If Cyrodiil and IC need PVE players to sustain it, that's not balance, it's life support.

If the Bay of a City is full of Fish and Sharks, and all the Fish decide to leave instead of being eaten all the time, and the Sharks die, then that environment was never properly suited to have Sharks in the first place.

Yes that is definitely the only complaint I had. The several other ones I listed dont matter.

erio · February 2021

ArchMikem wrote: »

erio wrote: »

Well Im a pvp player, and I dont want to learn how to pve properly. I dont want to dedicate time to earning my rewards, I just want to stick to what im good at. Since I love pvp so much, and im not good at pve - I demand a special instance of Vet Sunspire that caters to my pvp skills and lack of pve knowledge. In this special instance, I cannot die, but I can earn all the benefits and rewards!

So...playing the content on Normal then? If you wanted the gear you don't need to run it on veteran. Your comparison is flawed, since all PvPers have to do is run Normal difficulty if Vet is too hard.

At the same time, PvErs can't just turn down the difficulty in Cyrodiil in order to make you guys easier to fight.

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

From what I understand, PVE players go in with PVE in mind not equipped for PVP. Honestly it really wouldn't matter what they had on as they lack the skill set for PVP anyway. Unlike PVE, in PVP a PC can think an NPC can't. If you want to PVP, why are you going after PVE players that probably lack the skills and knowledge of PVP and can't really fight back? Shouldn't you like be going after you know, other PVPers that can actually give you a challenge? Cyro and IC just seem like bait to me, luring in PVE players to be fodder for PVP players so they can stroke their ego's.

There is no such thing as a pve player in IC or Cyro. Once you enter those zones you are a pvp player. How unprepared they are is irrelevant.

As someone said earlier, it must take epic skill to kill people talking to a quest npc. Like I said those area's are just bait since it plays off peoples nostalgia from TES IV. By adding PVE content it's basically almost trolling.

Yeah it’s cheesy to kill someone in an npc dialogue, but maybe put your buffs and hots up before talking to an npc instead of whining because you were not prepared to pvp in a pvp zone.

How about sticking to Keeps instead of camping Quest Givers for easy targets?

Another surface level interpretation of my point. Try to understand what Im saying

erio · February 2021

Thannazzar wrote: »

How about this, PVErs will stop asking for PVE versions of PVP zones when PVPrs stop asking for balance changes that detrimentally effect PVE players!

I mean usually were just asking for zos to thanos snap proc sets out of the game. Aka The sets that pvers dont use.

Also its silly of you to expect the mmo balance to remain the same through its lifestyle. In literally every mmo ever balance flip flops during each patch. Thats normal.

Kiyakotari · February 2021

This is seriously making me tempted to form like an ultimate zerg of PvE players all on the same faction and just go farm the everloving cowpies out of Cyro. Hm. Just overwhelm the place with sheer numbers, in a PvE "We're questing here, bug off!" sort of way. Maybe there's something worth organizing monthly events for. I've had plenty of guildies express the desire to earn things in PvP zones, like fishing, but frustration at not having the time/energy/resources to deal with an entirely new aspect of the game to do so.

B0SSzombie · February 2021

erio wrote: »

JJuponen wrote: »

Lots of PVPers are worried about losing easy(ish) kills if if PVE players are not forced into PVP instances, I think. Which would indicate that PVP in this game is not healthy itself.

Hardcore PVP player only tends to fail eventually...wonder why. Well, not really.

B0SSzombie wrote: »

It's always funny when PVP players whine that "If you take away the PVE players the servers will be dead."

If the content would actually die if the percentage of players in it that don't actually want to participate in it leave, then maybe it's not great content? If Cyrodiil and IC need PVE players to sustain it, that's not balance, it's life support.

If the Bay of a City is full of Fish and Sharks, and all the Fish decide to leave instead of being eaten all the time, and the Sharks die, then that environment was never properly suited to have Sharks in the first place.

Yes that is definitely the only complaint I had. The several other ones I listed dont matter.

And YOU ignore the points people make where they agree that PVE versions of PVP zones shouldn't have PVP rewards, like Alliance Points, Telvar, War Torte recipes, etc.

PVE People just want to quest, dude. They don't want to be poached trying to run through Bruma, and they don't give a crap about their Alliance Rank or Leaderboard Score.

erio · February 2021

B0SSzombie wrote: »

erio wrote: »

JJuponen wrote: »

Lots of PVPers are worried about losing easy(ish) kills if if PVE players are not forced into PVP instances, I think. Which would indicate that PVP in this game is not healthy itself.

Hardcore PVP player only tends to fail eventually...wonder why. Well, not really.

B0SSzombie wrote: »

It's always funny when PVP players whine that "If you take away the PVE players the servers will be dead."

If the content would actually die if the percentage of players in it that don't actually want to participate in it leave, then maybe it's not great content? If Cyrodiil and IC need PVE players to sustain it, that's not balance, it's life support.

If the Bay of a City is full of Fish and Sharks, and all the Fish decide to leave instead of being eaten all the time, and the Sharks die, then that environment was never properly suited to have Sharks in the first place.

Yes that is definitely the only complaint I had. The several other ones I listed dont matter.

And YOU ignore the points people make where they agree that PVE versions of PVP zones shouldn't have PVP rewards, like Alliance Points, Telvar, War Torte recipes, etc.

PVE People just want to quest, dude. They don't want to be poached trying to run through Bruma, and they don't give a crap about their Alliance Rank or Leaderboard Score.

If theres no quests, telvar, bosses, etc, then no one would do it lol
These are the rewards for delving into the pvp zone. If theres a "pve" zone without these rewards, then its gonna be pretty empty.

erio · February 2021

Kiyakotari wrote: »

This is seriously making me tempted to form like an ultimate zerg of PvE players all on the same faction and just go farm the everloving cowpies out of Cyro. Hm. Just overwhelm the place with sheer numbers, in a PvE "We're questing here, bug off!" sort of way. Maybe there's something worth organizing monthly events for. I've had plenty of guildies express the desire to earn things in PvP zones, like fishing, but frustration at not having the time/energy/resources to deal with an entirely new aspect of the game to do so.

Ive seen large groups of pvers try to run in cyro. Usually doesnt end well and they log off after a few attempts.

B0SSzombie · February 2021

erio wrote: »

B0SSzombie wrote: »

erio wrote: »

JJuponen wrote: »

Lots of PVPers are worried about losing easy(ish) kills if if PVE players are not forced into PVP instances, I think. Which would indicate that PVP in this game is not healthy itself.

Hardcore PVP player only tends to fail eventually...wonder why. Well, not really.

B0SSzombie wrote: »

It's always funny when PVP players whine that "If you take away the PVE players the servers will be dead."

If the content would actually die if the percentage of players in it that don't actually want to participate in it leave, then maybe it's not great content? If Cyrodiil and IC need PVE players to sustain it, that's not balance, it's life support.

If the Bay of a City is full of Fish and Sharks, and all the Fish decide to leave instead of being eaten all the time, and the Sharks die, then that environment was never properly suited to have Sharks in the first place.

Yes that is definitely the only complaint I had. The several other ones I listed dont matter.

And YOU ignore the points people make where they agree that PVE versions of PVP zones shouldn't have PVP rewards, like Alliance Points, Telvar, War Torte recipes, etc.

PVE People just want to quest, dude. They don't want to be poached trying to run through Bruma, and they don't give a crap about their Alliance Rank or Leaderboard Score.

If theres no quests, telvar, bosses, etc, then no one would do it lol

Notice how I didn't say "No Quests or Bosses."

Those aren't PVP content, they're PVE.

You want people to understand your (Somewhat weak) arguments, but refuse to spend even a nano-second paying attention to other people's arguments.

Sanctum74 · February 2021

ArchMikem wrote: »

erio wrote: »

Well Im a pvp player, and I dont want to learn how to pve properly. I dont want to dedicate time to earning my rewards, I just want to stick to what im good at. Since I love pvp so much, and im not good at pve - I demand a special instance of Vet Sunspire that caters to my pvp skills and lack of pve knowledge. In this special instance, I cannot die, but I can earn all the benefits and rewards!

So...playing the content on Normal then? If you wanted the gear you don't need to run it on veteran. Your comparison is flawed, since all PvPers have to do is run Normal difficulty if Vet is too hard.

At the same time, PvErs can't just turn down the difficulty in Cyrodiil in order to make you guys easier to fight.

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

From what I understand, PVE players go in with PVE in mind not equipped for PVP. Honestly it really wouldn't matter what they had on as they lack the skill set for PVP anyway. Unlike PVE, in PVP a PC can think an NPC can't. If you want to PVP, why are you going after PVE players that probably lack the skills and knowledge of PVP and can't really fight back? Shouldn't you like be going after you know, other PVPers that can actually give you a challenge? Cyro and IC just seem like bait to me, luring in PVE players to be fodder for PVP players so they can stroke their ego's.

There is no such thing as a pve player in IC or Cyro. Once you enter those zones you are a pvp player. How unprepared they are is irrelevant.

As someone said earlier, it must take epic skill to kill people talking to a quest npc. Like I said those area's are just bait since it plays off peoples nostalgia from TES IV. By adding PVE content it's basically almost trolling.

Yeah it’s cheesy to kill someone in an npc dialogue, but maybe put your buffs and hots up before talking to an npc instead of whining because you were not prepared to pvp in a pvp zone.

How about sticking to Keeps instead of camping Quest Givers for easy targets?

I don’t camp quest givers or even run a gank build, but if I did it would be completely legitimate to pvp in a pvp zone. Vlas and crops are back doors to ad keeps so keeping them yellow is just as important as keeps.

My point was if you are knowingly going into a pvp zone then be prepared. Have the appropriate gear and apply your buffs and hots before talking to an npc then you don’t have to worry about griefers.

vibeborn · February 2021

I'm not a PVPer but I very much agree. I have several PVE zones to get my needs met, I don't need a PVE Cyrodiil or IC to be satisfied

B0SSzombie · February 2021

[Quoted posts removed]

Well here's a secret, friend:

I also make tons of Tel Var and do plenty of questing. I've gotten all the Skyshards, caught all the Fish, read all the lore books, cleared all the Delves and Dolmens, and even done enough node farming to find a War Torte recipe.

And you know what my trick was?

I play at 5 AM outside of Events, when the servers are so effectively dead, there is no PVP. There isn't a single player to hinder me. I cut out the fat completely and get to enjoy the fun content to my heart's pleasure. I wasn't "rewarded" for dealing with PVP, I just skipped it entirely.

Yeah, I don't make bank on AP, but I don't care about that, because AP is a concrete PVP reward, and I don't think I could care less about it.

And if you connect the dots, that's exactly what would happen in a PVE only version of the zones. The only difference would be that other people could do what I do at any time if the day.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · February 2021

Not our fault if your favorite type of content in eso is only a side activity

Psiion · February 2021

Greetings,

After removing a few unnecessary back and forth posts, we would like to remind everyone that Flaming is against the Forum's Community Rules, as stated below:

Flaming: It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.

erio · February 2021

B0SSzombie wrote: »

[Quoted posts removed]

Well here's a secret, friend:

I also make tons of Tel Var and do plenty of questing. I've gotten all the Skyshards, caught all the Fish, read all the lore books, cleared all the Delves and Dolmens, and even done enough node farming to find a War Torte recipe.

And you know what my trick was?

I play at 5 AM outside of Events, when the servers are so effectively dead, there is no PVP. There isn't a single player to hinder me. I cut out the fat completely and get to enjoy the fun content to my heart's pleasure. I wasn't "rewarded" for dealing with PVP, I just skipped it entirely.

Yeah, I don't make bank on AP, but I don't care about that, because AP is a concrete PVP reward, and I don't think I could care less about it.

And if you connect the dots, that's exactly what would happen in a PVE only version of the zones. The only difference would be that other people could do what I do at any time if the day.

I find that hilarious that you pvers are getting up at 5am just to do quests and stuff lmao, it would honestly be less work to learn to pvp
Im honestly done with you lmao, isnt it that crazy how a pvpve zone should have pvp? End of story. Your only argument is that you personally dont like pvp, and now you want to avoid all of the effort and risk in a PVPve zone by cutting it in half.
Like ive said 100 times, if you dont put the effort into something, you shouldnt reap the rewards.

Imagine if I got up at 5am i could get my special instance of vet sunspire where i couldnt die XD

Dark_Lord_Kuro · February 2021

Greasytengu wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

People in this thread forgetting that fact that questing in a pvp zone makes you a pvper even if you dont like it.

If you honestly cant pvp, then make friends with people who can and get them to help out.

IC is as much PvE zone as it is PvP. Thing is that many PvErs are there just to do 8 quests, get their 15 achievement points and a dye, and leave IC forever (or until MYM). It's an hour and a half endeavor but getting constantly farmed in Nobles district, where you need to kill waves of daedra at three places, makes it unnecessarily longer. And IC dwellers know this all too well, because they're the reason for it. But I guess someone just isn't interested in fair fights.

Then make it a fair fight. Bring friends, get some pvp gear, and keep trying. I wouldn't try to solo sunspire in pvp gear, why would you solo the IC quests in pve gear?

Because its a pve quest wich is plaged by the curse of pvp player

B0SSzombie · February 2021

erio wrote: »

B0SSzombie wrote: »

[Quoted posts removed]

Well here's a secret, friend:

I also make tons of Tel Var and do plenty of questing. I've gotten all the Skyshards, caught all the Fish, read all the lore books, cleared all the Delves and Dolmens, and even done enough node farming to find a War Torte recipe.

And you know what my trick was?

I play at 5 AM outside of Events, when the servers are so effectively dead, there is no PVP. There isn't a single player to hinder me. I cut out the fat completely and get to enjoy the fun content to my heart's pleasure. I wasn't "rewarded" for dealing with PVP, I just skipped it entirely.

Yeah, I don't make bank on AP, but I don't care about that, because AP is a concrete PVP reward, and I don't think I could care less about it.

And if you connect the dots, that's exactly what would happen in a PVE only version of the zones. The only difference would be that other people could do what I do at any time if the day.

I find that hilarious that you pvers are getting up at 5am just to do quests and stuff lmao, it would honestly be less work to learn to pvp
Im honestly done with you lmao, isnt it that crazy how a pvpve zone should have pvp? End of story. Your only argument is that you personally dont like pvp, and now you want to avoid all of the effort and risk in a PVPve zone by cutting it in half.
Like ive said 100 times, if you dont put the effort into something, you shouldnt reap the rewards.

Imagine if I got up at 5am i could get my special instance of vet sunspire where i couldnt die XD

Who's getting up at 5? I'm already up from being up since way before then.

But it's fine, see you later.

VaranisArano · February 2021

Kiyakotari wrote: »

This is seriously making me tempted to form like an ultimate zerg of PvE players all on the same faction and just go farm the everloving cowpies out of Cyro. Hm. Just overwhelm the place with sheer numbers, in a PvE "We're questing here, bug off!" sort of way. Maybe there's something worth organizing monthly events for. I've had plenty of guildies express the desire to earn things in PvP zones, like fishing, but frustration at not having the time/energy/resources to deal with an entirely new aspect of the game to do so.

Go for it!

No, seriously, if you can get your guild to do it, this is a great way for players to get their feet wet in Cyrodiil in the company of a group that they know is going to be friendly whether they win or lose. Plus, Cyrodiil was designed for exactly that sort of large group combat so you'd be playing precisely as intended.

I've found that PVPing with friends makes a big difference in how enjoyable it is, especially when you lose.

Agenericname · February 2021

Kiyakotari wrote: »

This is seriously making me tempted to form like an ultimate zerg of PvE players all on the same faction and just go farm the everloving cowpies out of Cyro. Hm. Just overwhelm the place with sheer numbers, in a PvE "We're questing here, bug off!" sort of way. Maybe there's something worth organizing monthly events for. I've had plenty of guildies express the desire to earn things in PvP zones, like fishing, but frustration at not having the time/energy/resources to deal with an entirely new aspect of the game to do so.

I agree with @VaranisArano, knock yourself out. I personally know several groups of older and otherwise PvE groups that do this.

Youre going to die. As long as everyone understands and doesn't take it all personally, there is much fun to be had.