PvP zones should NOT be turned into PVE zones

hafgood · February 2021

I hate the badmouthing of PvP players. We are not all gankers and griefers. Very few camp quest npc's and even fewer camp the quest sites around IC and Cyro.

Why? For one thing I would imagine they can get very lonely.

Why would someone camp a particular location in the hope of a couple of cheap kills when no one may come along for hours?

The answer they don't.

Same for delves and skyshards. If you get ganked it's because that player happened to be passing that spot at that time.

I also think there is a huge error in many players thinking. In IC and Cyro there are no PvErs. That's right, there are none. There are some players that might think they are PvErs but they are not.

In Cyro and IC everyone is a PvPer.

Everyone.

Everyone is both hunter and hunted.

I've known those players that considered themselves as a PvEr get the blood lust and kill many other players, coming back more and more often until they considered themselves PvPers.

If you take away the risk you take away the chance of players trying and liking PvP in this game.

PvP can be intense, it can be fun, one minute you are top of the world, the next a carpet for a blue ball group.

Its all about the risk and and reward.

Its about creeping through the sewers deep in enemy territory trying to get those skyshards, lorebooks and bosses while wondering who you will run into.

Its about an epic defence at Fort Chalman when you are on an Emp push and outnumbered by both blues and reds.

Its about taking a scroll from behind the enemies gates and running it all the way back to a home keep.

Its about doing silly thing like stopping with the scroll and doing a dolmen, and getting bombed on the chest (we had a camp down fortunately).

Its about having a laugh and a joke with friends, it's about playing as part of a disciplined ball group where everything is coordinated.

Its all these things and more.

Sadly many come with the mindset that it's not what they want, it's scary, it doesn't appeal, etc. I had that mindset. I now love PvP.

I am not a PvPer.

I am not a PvEr

I am an ESO player happy to embrace all that the game brings.

I seek to take nothing away from either side in this argument, but would say the ones who lose most out of creating PvE zones from IC & Cyro are in that those same PvErs because they will never experience the excitement of PvP, and will never know that all those scare stories are just that. Yes there are bad eggs in PvP, you may get a salty whisper, you may get ganked, but thats no difference to being kicked from a dungeon because you are not "good enough" and getting salty whispered because you died

TheForFeeF · February 2021

Sure, not all PvPers are the problem here - however, its the select few that decide to gank are the issue. And its a constant issue, not like a certain time of day or week or zone. I gave up on IC, which sucks because I aim to get all the quests done in ESO.

Its not like I even need to get good or something - I was doing the "arena" quest early on, and during that, I kept getting ganked. After 2-3 attempts I just gave up because they were waiting there for me. Tell me - how can I play differently to complete that quest? I am focusing on mobs, so I can't sneak or use invis pots.

At that point, they weren't even doing it for the Telvar since I had none on me. They were just trolling.

PvP and PvE doesn't belong in the same zone at all, it creates too much of a conflict.

TheForFeeF · February 2021

hafgood wrote: »

I hate the badmouthing of PvP players. We are not all gankers and griefers. Very few camp quest npc's and even fewer camp the quest sites around IC and Cyro.

Why? For one thing I would imagine they can get very lonely.

Why would someone camp a particular location in the hope of a couple of cheap kills when no one may come along for hours?

The answer they don't.

Same for delves and skyshards. If you get ganked it's because that player happened to be passing that spot at that time.

I also think there is a huge error in many players thinking. In IC and Cyro there are no PvErs. That's right, there are none. There are some players that might think they are PvErs but they are not.

In Cyro and IC everyone is a PvPer.

Everyone.

Everyone is both hunter and hunted.

I've known those players that considered themselves as a PvEr get the blood lust and kill many other players, coming back more and more often until they considered themselves PvPers.

If you take away the risk you take away the chance of players trying and liking PvP in this game.

PvP can be intense, it can be fun, one minute you are top of the world, the next a carpet for a blue ball group.

Its all about the risk and and reward.

Its about creeping through the sewers deep in enemy territory trying to get those skyshards, lorebooks and bosses while wondering who you will run into.

Its about an epic defence at Fort Chalman when you are on an Emp push and outnumbered by both blues and reds.

Its about taking a scroll from behind the enemies gates and running it all the way back to a home keep.

Its about doing silly thing like stopping with the scroll and doing a dolmen, and getting bombed on the chest (we had a camp down fortunately).

Its about having a laugh and a joke with friends, it's about playing as part of a disciplined ball group where everything is coordinated.

Its all these things and more.

Sadly many come with the mindset that it's not what they want, it's scary, it doesn't appeal, etc. I had that mindset. I now love PvP.

I am not a PvPer.

I am not a PvEr

I am an ESO player happy to embrace all that the game brings.

I seek to take nothing away from either side in this argument, but would say the ones who lose most out of creating PvE zones from IC & Cyro are in that those same PvErs because they will never experience the excitement of PvP, and will never know that all those scare stories are just that. Yes there are bad eggs in PvP, you may get a salty whisper, you may get ganked, but thats no difference to being kicked from a dungeon because you are not "good enough" and getting salty whispered because you died

This is so incorrect.

I've had people camp me on quest objectives, and will not attack me until I am in the middle of fighting mobs.

Also, I either go in to either PvP or PvE, never both at the same time. So, yes, there are times when there are PvE'ers in IC/Cyro.

If I am in there to PvE and doing PvE objectives, I will not attack other players that are at the same objectives as me. If someone is doing a delve boss, I won't join in, just wait so I don't damage them.

hafgood · February 2021

TheForFeeF wrote: »

This is so incorrect.

I've had people camp me on quest objectives, and will not attack me until I am in the middle of fighting mobs.

Also, I either go in to either PvP or PvE, never both at the same time. So, yes, there are times when there are PvE'ers in IC/Cyro.

If I am in there to PvE and doing PvE objectives, I will not attack other players that are at the same objectives as me. If someone is doing a delve boss, I won't join in, just wait so I don't damage them.

Actually it's not. I didn't say you never get ganked or griefed or camped. It happens, when it does do a different quest, swap campaigns, come back at a different time. Not the answer you want but the best I can give.

And no there are never PvErs in IC/Cyro. You go in to a PvP zone, whether it to do questing, fishing, skysharding, whatever, you do so as a potential target. You go in as both hunter and hunted.

And yes I have done the same with delve bosses and quests. I am not a ganker or a griefer and a reasonable number of those that are are actually so called "PvErs"

JJuponen · February 2021

Lots of PVPers are worried about losing easy(ish) kills if if PVE players are not forced into PVP instances, I think. Which would indicate that PVP in this game is not healthy itself.

Hardcore PVP player only tends to fail eventually...wonder why. Well, not really.

Anyron · February 2021

Sarannah wrote: »

Sounds so simple when you put it like that, except for it is not the same at all. You can do PvE with any gear, even PvP gear, noone will stop you. It might take a bit, but noone is capable of stopping you from progressing. In PvP this is different, as other players can halt/stop your progress forever. Not slow it down, but actually put it to a halt, while making you lose all the progress you made up till that point.

Your example would be more fitting, if you did a trial and all trialgear only drops from the final boss. Then after all the slow progress you made in PvP gear to get to the final trial boss, you find a PvE guy just killed him, and you have to start the entire trial all over again. But this can't happen.

Players can't stop you from progressing in PvE, but players can stop you from progressing in PvP. This is the difference.

Noone is asking for PvP zones to be made into PvE zones with all PvP rewards like telvar still available.

pvp and pve gear isnt somehow divided. you can play pvp in pve gear easily since impenetrable isnt needed. i am pvper and i play 4divines 3 infused. all geart i own is from overland content

i dont have group to do trials with me so if i want something, i have to pay carry, which costs milions of gold.
you can do same with pvp. hire bodyguards

mocap · February 2021

erio wrote: »

- pve posts asking for their own special instance of IC that has PVP disabled;
- Imagine that I - A mainly pvp player - Wanted to get some fancy smanchy gear and achievements/skins from Vet Sunspire

- Do you see my logic here?

No ?
rare achivements/skins != bloody boring quests in Cyrodiil

RedMuse · February 2021

MrGhosty wrote: »

I'm sure there are some that want something for nothing, but most PvErs asking for this are talking about wanting to complete the quests and explore the city without getting ganked from stealth as they reach a quest objective. Also there is already an option for you if you don't want to have to run PvE stuff, you can grind out gold and pay for a carry. I am someone who would very much love a PvE instance of IC to allow me to do daily quests and complete the story quest but it should come with either drastically reduced tel var gains or none, random world drop loot instead of IC sets and not have any of the associated polymorphs or other special rewards available. At the same time, PvP IC should get a much needed update with a bunch of new collectibles to go after and really give it a nice round of polish. Doing it this way ensures the people who are able to do both will probably keep trying PvP IC but for those unable/unwilling to PvP they can at least get their event collectible tickets. Everyone wins because most of the people that would use a PvE IC aren't going to pvp anyway so let them get their new shiny event bauble.

And? You can either team up with friends (safety in numbers and all that) or grind out gold and pay for a couple of bodyguards.

nukk3r · February 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

People in this thread forgetting that fact that questing in a pvp zone makes you a pvper even if you dont like it.

If you honestly cant pvp, then make friends with people who can and get them to help out.

IC is as much PvE zone as it is PvP. Thing is that many PvErs are there just to do 8 quests, get their 15 achievement points and a dye, and leave IC forever (or until MYM). It's an hour and a half endeavor but getting constantly farmed in Nobles district, where you need to kill waves of daedra at three places, makes it unnecessarily longer. And IC dwellers know this all too well, because they're the reason for it. But I guess someone just isn't interested in fair fights.

Even ZOS knows it. Their decision is the opposite of "fair fights."

Remember the Arena quest with that multistage boss fight? Not gonna lie, the PVE side of that fight messed my Stam Sorc up a couple times.

Now look at the achievement for "Alliance Gladiator."
"Kill 100 players while inside the Imperial Arena"
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Gladiator

Yep, that's good ol' ZOS, directly incentivizing players to kill other players in the middle of a major quest area. The site of the boss fight, no less. Its things like "Alliance Gladiator" that really make it clear that ZOS' vision for PvPvE wasn't "Let me get through my quests and achievement points without interference from enemy player."

I get why players want risk-free questing and rewards, but its clear that's not what ZOS intended. I'll compromise on experiencing the story without risk, but I don't think players should get rewards without accepting the risks that's intended.

I partly agree with you, but ZOS' zone design is only one side of the medal, the other side is players themselves. I don't know if you remember or even played Diablo 2 but there was an unwritten rule, you would clear the area of mobs before fighting another player, so there's no unfair advantage. Nothing prevents the players from setting up duels in the arena when there's no one fighting the bosses. But if someone chooses to go for an easy kill on a player who's already being pressured in a boss fight, that's just sad.

TheForFeeF · February 2021

hafgood wrote: »

TheForFeeF wrote: »

This is so incorrect.

I've had people camp me on quest objectives, and will not attack me until I am in the middle of fighting mobs.

Also, I either go in to either PvP or PvE, never both at the same time. So, yes, there are times when there are PvE'ers in IC/Cyro.

If I am in there to PvE and doing PvE objectives, I will not attack other players that are at the same objectives as me. If someone is doing a delve boss, I won't join in, just wait so I don't damage them.

Actually it's not. I didn't say you never get ganked or griefed or camped. It happens, when it does do a different quest, swap campaigns, come back at a different time. Not the answer you want but the best I can give.

And no there are never PvErs in IC/Cyro. You go in to a PvP zone, whether it to do questing, fishing, skysharding, whatever, you do so as a potential target. You go in as both hunter and hunted.

And yes I have done the same with delve bosses and quests. I am not a ganker or a griefer and a reasonable number of those that are are actually so called "PvErs"

You're still incorrect.

You specifically said "Same for delves and skyshards. If you get ganked it's because that player happened to be passing that spot at that time." -> There will be instances of this happening yes - but every gank/camp I've dealt with in IC has been down to people camping at quest objectives and waiting for me to start the mob fight... How am I supposed to deal with a PvP and a PvE boss? I also can't just go and do a different quest in IC since a player is literally halting me from progressing.

Telling people to try at different times/campaigns is actually useless information - I've tried it multiple times and it just hasn't worked. The majority may just let PvE'ers do what they need to do, however, there are people that do specifically camp quest objectives for easy kills.

Again, you are also wrong. When I enter IC/Cyro to PvE - I am not hunting at all. I may be being hunted, but only because some PvPers are looking for easy kills.

Hate to break it to you, but if people go into IC/Cryo to PvE, they are in fact there as PvE'ers. So there will always be PvE'ers in the PvP zones.

I will stick by that PvP and PvE do not belong in the same zone at all. The only way they can co-exist in the same zone is by having it as an optional feature. Look at how WoW does it.

mickeyx · February 2021

erio wrote: »

mickeyx wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

erio wrote: »

Another year, another lot of pve posts asking for their own special instance of IC that has PVP disabled.
Heres my logic, in the form of a comparison:
Imagine that I - A mainly pvp player - Wanted to get some fancy smanchy gear and achievements/skins from Vet Sunspire. Well Im a pvp player, and I dont want to learn how to pve properly. I dont want to dedicate time to earning my rewards, I just want to stick to what im good at. Since I love pvp so much, and im not good at pve - I demand a special instance of Vet Sunspire that caters to my pvp skills and lack of pve knowledge. In this special instance, I cannot die, but I can earn all the benefits and rewards!

Do you see my logic here?

Even though I pvp and dont like pve, if I want the hottest new proc set, I have to get ready, and hop on my pve toon to farm it out. You should have to do the same in pvp.

If you arent good at something, you shouldnt reap the rewards imo.

On top of shrinking the pvp playerbase (by removing pvers from pvp ic), it would ruin the economy for telvar since there would be 0 risk associated with it

I know, right on schedule too lol. Don't these people complaining realize that all PVPers (every single one of us) have to PVE year round to get gear for our builds? But the moment there is a reward they want that comes from a PVP zone, they ask for special treatment so they don't have to participate in a game mode they don't like. It's like companies asking for government bailouts lol.

Ehh? Are you being ganked mercilessly in PVE zones by some sadistic ganker who get his willy wet by camping players? If not then how is it even the same comparison.

No because no one does that

Maybe in your alternate universe where you play ESO. The one i play in camping players trying to do quests in Cyrodiil and IC is common. So please stop making comparisons that are not even true. PVP players face no risk in PVE zones other than being carried in dungeons.

drkfrontiers · February 2021

erio wrote: »

Another year, another lot of pve posts asking for their own special instance of IC that has PVP disabled.
Heres my logic, in the form of a comparison:
Imagine that I - A mainly pvp player - Wanted to get some fancy smanchy gear and achievements/skins from Vet Sunspire. Well Im a pvp player, and I dont want to learn how to pve properly. I dont want to dedicate time to earning my rewards, I just want to stick to what im good at. Since I love pvp so much, and im not good at pve - I demand a special instance of Vet Sunspire that caters to my pvp skills and lack of pve knowledge. In this special instance, I cannot die, but I can earn all the benefits and rewards!

Do you see my logic here?

Even though I pvp and dont like pve, if I want the hottest new proc set, I have to get ready, and hop on my pve toon to farm it out. You should have to do the same in pvp.

If you arent good at something, you shouldnt reap the rewards imo.

On top of shrinking the pvp playerbase (by removing pvers from pvp ic), it would ruin the economy for telvar since there would be 0 risk associated with it

I don't see what harm a PvE instance would do.

Keep the PvP instance, just add a PvE instance as well.

Sometime I would really like to have both options. During PvP events the PvE instance is inaccessible so folks then need to go to PvP.

There's so much that could be done - its such a wonderful zone for exploring. I can't keep track of the storyline half the time, because I get so frustrated by the constant zerg hoard.

ADarklore · February 2021

The entire reason they won't create a PVE version is because PVP would die quickly. Without having PVE players to prey upon, Cyrodiil would die quite quickly. ESO PVE players already greatly outnumber PVP players... and it would be quite embarassing to ZOS when suddenly many existing PVP players quit for lack of 'other players' to battle since so many would be in the PVE only version.

CP5 · February 2021

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

From what I understand, PVE players go in with PVE in mind not equipped for PVP. Honestly it really wouldn't matter what they had on as they lack the skill set for PVP anyway. Unlike PVE, in PVP a PC can think an NPC can't. If you want to PVP, why are you going after PVE players that probably lack the skills and knowledge of PVP and can't really fight back? Shouldn't you like be going after you know, other PVPers that can actually give you a challenge? Cyro and IC just seem like bait to me, luring in PVE players to be fodder for PVP players so they can stroke their ego's.

There is no such thing as a pve player in IC or Cyro. Once you enter those zones you are a pvp player. How unprepared they are is irrelevant.

As someone said earlier, it must take epic skill to kill people talking to a quest npc. Like I said those area's are just bait since it plays off peoples nostalgia from TES IV. By adding PVE content it's basically almost trolling.

Yeah it’s cheesy to kill someone in an npc dialogue, but maybe put your buffs and hots up before talking to an npc instead of whining because you were not prepared to pvp in a pvp zone.

How about when you use a door to enter a building to turn in a quest, get a short load screen, and come up on the other side dead because a pvp'er is camping the building with siege?

ectoplasmicninja · February 2021

PvP zones should stay PvP. I've managed to get all the quests in Cyrodiil done, as well as complete all the delves, do all the dolmens, find all the skyshards, and catch all the fish. On PvE characters in PvE setups, I might add. I haven't finished the questline in Imperial City yet, but I will someday.

And you know what, I'll probably die a lot trying to get it done. Anyone questing in a war zone is going to have to make an effort to dodge bullets or get shot. Most people understandably hate dying, but death in PvP is nothing. It's having to ride back to where you were. Maybe it's losing some Tel Var, but if you were only questing you didn't have much to begin with anyway. It's not like you lose your gear or gold. It's a mild inconvenience.

PvP is such a small fraction of this game I think it would be a shame to dilute it further by creating PvE versions of the only existing PvP zones. If you want to do difficult content a certain amount of effort is required. If you want to go frolicking through a zone with a massive alliance war going on, make some preparations for your journey. Change your build. Bring friends. Use stealth. Go at off-peak hours in quiet campaigns. Make the effort required or accept that the content might be out of your reach until you do.

VaranisArano · February 2021

erio wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

erio wrote: »

MrGhosty wrote: »

I'm sure there are some that want something for nothing, but most PvErs asking for this are talking about wanting to complete the quests and explore the city without getting ganked from stealth as they reach a quest objective. Also there is already an option for you if you don't want to have to run PvE stuff, you can grind out gold and pay for a carry. I am someone who would very much love a PvE instance of IC to allow me to do daily quests and complete the story quest but it should come with either drastically reduced tel var gains or none, random world drop loot instead of IC sets and not have any of the associated polymorphs or other special rewards available. At the same time, PvP IC should get a much needed update with a bunch of new collectibles to go after and really give it a nice round of polish. Doing it this way ensures the people who are able to do both will probably keep trying PvP IC but for those unable/unwilling to PvP they can at least get their event collectible tickets. Everyone wins because most of the people that would use a PvE IC aren't going to pvp anyway so let them get their new shiny event bauble.

I dont understand whats stopping you from doing that, just put on some pvp build, git gud, and go for it.
Or hire a bodyguard
A Pvpve zone is pvp with some pve elements, and should not be pve.

Same goes for you in dungeons. But most PVPers dont bother changing their build. They rather spam dizzy in heavy armor and leech on others. This is why I give them their own medicine, kick.

Youll still clear the dungeon in like 10 mins. Theyre so braindead easy.
The thing about pvp players, is that any half decent one actually understands the game. They know how mechanics work, and im telling you, from my perspective, and my guildies, its not a hard switch from pvp to pve. Clearly the switch from pve to pvp isnt like that.

From experience, PVE to PVP is more difficult, largely because I got thrown into the deep end with enemies who were intelligent, didn't have telegraphed attacks and movement, and while I eventually did learn to recognize different classes, build, their tactics and common counters, its like the "really advanced" version of trying out content like vMA of vVH for the first time without running it on normal first.

Honestly, I'm not surprised at all that many PVE players struggle, especially if they don't run the Vet arenas. PVP is a lot closer to that experience of dying over and over again while figuring out what works...just against intelligent opponents, not repetitive AI, so there was lot more dying on my part.

Viewsfrom6ix · February 2021

Kurat wrote: »

erio wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

erio wrote: »

MrGhosty wrote: »

I'm sure there are some that want something for nothing, but most PvErs asking for this are talking about wanting to complete the quests and explore the city without getting ganked from stealth as they reach a quest objective. Also there is already an option for you if you don't want to have to run PvE stuff, you can grind out gold and pay for a carry. I am someone who would very much love a PvE instance of IC to allow me to do daily quests and complete the story quest but it should come with either drastically reduced tel var gains or none, random world drop loot instead of IC sets and not have any of the associated polymorphs or other special rewards available. At the same time, PvP IC should get a much needed update with a bunch of new collectibles to go after and really give it a nice round of polish. Doing it this way ensures the people who are able to do both will probably keep trying PvP IC but for those unable/unwilling to PvP they can at least get their event collectible tickets. Everyone wins because most of the people that would use a PvE IC aren't going to pvp anyway so let them get their new shiny event bauble.

I dont understand whats stopping you from doing that, just put on some pvp build, git gud, and go for it.
Or hire a bodyguard
A Pvpve zone is pvp with some pve elements, and should not be pve.

Same goes for you in dungeons. But most PVPers dont bother changing their build. They rather spam dizzy in heavy armor and leech on others. This is why I give them their own medicine, kick.

Youll still clear the dungeon in like 10 mins. Theyre so braindead easy.
The thing about pvp players, is that any half decent one actually understands the game. They know how mechanics work, and im telling you, from my perspective, and my guildies, its not a hard switch from pvp to pve. Clearly the switch from pve to pvp isnt like that.

Sure you can clear vet dlcs in 10 min. Dungeons are so braindead easy because you're in heavy armor, often more hp than the tank and being carried hard without you even realizing. Everyone seems to be real pro in forums but the reality is that they only pull 10k or less dps, use leap on mobs that tank grouped nicely so they go flying all over, root or stun mobs so tank cant chain them, NBs use teleporting strike on bosses, spam snipe or dizzy lmao. And at the end of dungeon say GG.
I don't care about normal dungeons, they are braindead easy indeed but to come in vet dlc and think you're pulling your weight lol. Most PVPers say that pve is easy and pvp is the real endgame. So all you Goodslayers rather play horse riding simulator and gank unsuspecting pve guesters. That's the real challenge.

I do PvE and PvP content but I would label myself primarily as a PvEer. I have done most vet DLC dungeons as DPS without being carried.

I have to admit that PvP has a higher baseline and ceiling. There just isn't an effective and intuitive way to get better at PvP. For PvE, you memorize mechs and practice rotation on a dummy which you can measure your LA weave average, DOT/Buff uptime and etc, but in PvP you learn by dying over and over again and duelling.

I would say the time I've spent in getting good at PvP is equal to the time spent on PvE. But my PvP skills is no where near my PvE skills.

Joy_Division · February 2021

TheForFeeF wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

TheForFeeF wrote: »

This is so incorrect.

I've had people camp me on quest objectives, and will not attack me until I am in the middle of fighting mobs.

Also, I either go in to either PvP or PvE, never both at the same time. So, yes, there are times when there are PvE'ers in IC/Cyro.

If I am in there to PvE and doing PvE objectives, I will not attack other players that are at the same objectives as me. If someone is doing a delve boss, I won't join in, just wait so I don't damage them.

Actually it's not. I didn't say you never get ganked or griefed or camped. It happens, when it does do a different quest, swap campaigns, come back at a different time. Not the answer you want but the best I can give.

And no there are never PvErs in IC/Cyro. You go in to a PvP zone, whether it to do questing, fishing, skysharding, whatever, you do so as a potential target. You go in as both hunter and hunted.

And yes I have done the same with delve bosses and quests. I am not a ganker or a griefer and a reasonable number of those that are are actually so called "PvErs"

You're still incorrect.

You specifically said "Same for delves and skyshards. If you get ganked it's because that player happened to be passing that spot at that time." -> There will be instances of this happening yes - but every gank/camp I've dealt with in IC has been down to people camping at quest objectives and waiting for me to start the mob fight... How am I supposed to deal with a PvP and a PvE boss? I also can't just go and do a different quest in IC since a player is literally halting me from progressing.

Telling people to try at different times/campaigns is actually useless information - I've tried it multiple times and it just hasn't worked. The majority may just let PvE'ers do what they need to do, however, there are people that do specifically camp quest objectives for easy kills.

Again, you are also wrong. When I enter IC/Cyro to PvE - I am not hunting at all. I may be being hunted, but only because some PvPers are looking for easy kills.

Hate to break it to you, but if people go into IC/Cryo to PvE, they are in fact there as PvE'ers. So there will always be PvE'ers in the PvP zones.

I will stick by that PvP and PvE do not belong in the same zone at all. The only way they can co-exist in the same zone is by having it as an optional feature. Look at how WoW does it.

There are people who have somehow managed to finish the IC PVE questline and get their Cyrodiil achievements. Some of them not very good at PvP. Just saying.

If you need a skyshard or are in the mood to do some PvE quests and just hate PvP, the developers have provided you with more than 90% of the game's content exclusively devoted to your particular preference. In fact, they have spent such an inordinate amount of time and resources to PvE land that they just flat out abandoned their proposed Justice System addition which was intended for the PvP community.

I'm having a hard time seeing the problem here or the argument that somehow having 90% of the game's content devoted to a sector of the community as being unfair to them.

SgtNuttzmeg · February 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

erio wrote: »

Another year, another lot of pve posts asking for their own special instance of IC that has PVP disabled.
Heres my logic, in the form of a comparison:
Imagine that I - A mainly pvp player - Wanted to get some fancy smanchy gear and achievements/skins from Vet Sunspire. Well Im a pvp player, and I dont want to learn how to pve properly. I dont want to dedicate time to earning my rewards, I just want to stick to what im good at. Since I love pvp so much, and im not good at pve - I demand a special instance of Vet Sunspire that caters to my pvp skills and lack of pve knowledge. In this special instance, I cannot die, but I can earn all the benefits and rewards!

Do you see my logic here?

Even though I pvp and dont like pve, if I want the hottest new proc set, I have to get ready, and hop on my pve toon to farm it out. You should have to do the same in pvp.

If you arent good at something, you shouldnt reap the rewards imo.

On top of shrinking the pvp playerbase (by removing pvers from pvp ic), it would ruin the economy for telvar since there would be 0 risk associated with it

I see PVPers in dungeons all the time, getting free carries. But when pve player gets ganked when they're talking to guest givers, PVPers laugh, insult, teabag and tell them things like "learn to play ", " what do you expect when coming here" etc. But at the same time PVPers leech on others in dungeons.
I don't mind carrying but it's a 2 way street.

Free carries? What? As somebody who primarily pvps I often carry the dungeons I am in. Most DPS done and often times the most healing. I might as well tank while I'm at it.

I tank, but to be fair, I'm sure there are plenty of PVPers who getting carried along with the many PVEers who get carried.

Getting good at both PVE and PVP takes time, effort, and commitment. Just like how plenty of PVEers refuse to swap to a PVP build or practice the basics before they head into Cyrodiil, its not unexpected that some PVPers would do the same in PVE.

That being said, if anyone is interested in being "carried" in PVP?

You need to group up. Seriously, join a PUG raid or a PVP guild to go PVP. Form up a group to go do the quests in a town. I can't carry you if you are questing off on your lonesome when you get ganked. If I'm there, I'll heal you (well, barring this MYM with the group-only heals change, thanks, ZOS!). But if you are running about on your own...well, you're on your own. Sorry.

There is this weird sense that PvE and PvP are really different. The builds are but how a combo works and how a parse works very similar. Keeping your dots, hots, buffs and debuffs a 100% of the time. La weaving for the most part is the same. The majority of sources of offbalance stun as well so learning how to medium attack isn't as important.

When I carry a dungeon group I see the same thing when I fight a player that is bad at the game. They don't do these things they don't keep their hots up, they don't block basic boss mechanics, they don't cc break. These aren't pvpers. Because people that don't do these things don't do well in PvP. They just don't.

There isn't a divide in gameplay. Sure some of the more advanced PvP techniques don't carry over from PvE but you don't need these techniques to kill 90% of players.

There are a ton of people that don't mind being carried. Why do you think people pay so much gold for dungeon or trial clears?

Koronach wrote: »

From what I understand, PVE players go in with PVE in mind not equipped for PVP. Honestly it really wouldn't matter what they had on as they lack the skill set for PVP anyway. Unlike PVE, in PVP a PC can think an NPC can't. If you want to PVP, why are you going after PVE players that probably lack the skills and knowledge of PVP and can't really fight back? Shouldn't you like be going after you know, other PVPers that can actually give you a challenge? Cyro and IC just seem like bait to me, luring in PVE players to be fodder for PVP players so they can stroke their ego's.

There is no way of telling if you are a PVE player and honestly who cares. Don't step into a ring if you don't want to fight.

Minyassa wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

For the players who only want to quest and explore, I'd be fine with a safe PVE only option as long as there are no rewards.

No skyshards, no leads, no AP, no Tel Var, no achievements, no fish.

If all you want is questing and exploration, then let the story be its own reward!

But when you want the rewards of a PvPvE zone, you should play it as the Devs intended, which includes the risk of PVP.

(Its my experience that some PVEers just want to quest. They'll take that deal! Its also my experience that most PVEers really want a risk-free path to the rewards of a PvPvE zone, and a number of them get really bothered by the idea of "no risk of PVP, no rewards.")

If skyshards, leads and fish are a reward for risk equivalent to PvP then they need to *all* be relocated inside of group content. Fair is fair. To make skyshards as difficult to get in PvE Tamriel as they are in PvP Tamriel, some should be in a locked room that doesn't open until the dungeon or trial boss is killed and we should have to wait until that's done for them to be open, and then we should still have to fight more trash mobs while going after them, and the easiest ones should still be behind packs of roving mobs, some of which should be stealthed and have a one-shot mechanic if you aren't properly geared for that dungeon.

Are you forgetting about the free skill point you get for completing each dungeon quest? This is already the case.

Koronach · February 2021

Koronach wrote: »

From what I understand, PVE players go in with PVE in mind not equipped for PVP. Honestly it really wouldn't matter what they had on as they lack the skill set for PVP anyway. Unlike PVE, in PVP a PC can think an NPC can't. If you want to PVP, why are you going after PVE players that probably lack the skills and knowledge of PVP and can't really fight back? Shouldn't you like be going after you know, other PVPers that can actually give you a challenge? Cyro and IC just seem like bait to me, luring in PVE players to be fodder for PVP players so they can stroke their ego's.

There is no way of telling if you are a PVE player and honestly who cares. Don't step into a ring if you don't want to fight.

Obviously people care, if the threads keep popping up every MYM. They literally get baited by PVE content in a PVP zone with no PVP knowledge. I'm sure a lot of these people never PVPed before, and aren't really expecting quest NPC's to be camped by PVPers. You act like everyone who plays this game played other MMO's or PVPed before. They don't know what to expect. I edited out my rude comment, I apologize. I've been up for like 50 hours so I'm tired and cranky.

BXR_Lonestar · February 2021

erio wrote: »

Another year, another lot of pve posts asking for their own special instance of IC that has PVP disabled.
Heres my logic, in the form of a comparison:
Imagine that I - A mainly pvp player - Wanted to get some fancy smanchy gear and achievements/skins from Vet Sunspire. Well Im a pvp player, and I dont want to learn how to pve properly. I dont want to dedicate time to earning my rewards, I just want to stick to what im good at. Since I love pvp so much, and im not good at pve - I demand a special instance of Vet Sunspire that caters to my pvp skills and lack of pve knowledge. In this special instance, I cannot die, but I can earn all the benefits and rewards!

Do you see my logic here?

Even though I pvp and dont like pve, if I want the hottest new proc set, I have to get ready, and hop on my pve toon to farm it out. You should have to do the same in pvp.

If you arent good at something, you shouldnt reap the rewards imo.

On top of shrinking the pvp playerbase (by removing pvers from pvp ic), it would ruin the economy for telvar since there would be 0 risk associated with it

I agree with your sentiment, but after thinking about this issue some more, here is why may be willing to support the idea of a more PVE oriented Cyro/IC server during events: I can never get in to play my homed servers during events because the PVE crowd is flooding it to take advantage of the event. True, PVP players are going to flood the homed servers too to take advantage of double AP, but my sense is that PVE players wanting to get in there too is contributing to those times as well. Why do I believe that is the case? Because the few times I was willing to sit and wait an hour to get into my homed server to play with some friends, my alliance was overcrowded with people not playing objectives, but rather, people pursuing daily quests as our alliance got annihilated.

So while I understand the dissent of not wanting to give in to these people, if giving the PVE players/questers their own server keeps them out of my homed servers during the events and, as a biproduct of that split, I'm actually able to play my homed servers during the events and actually take advantage of the double AP, I see that as a win-win IMO.

Bottom line: if you have a server homed and play that server regularly, you should enjoy priority in getting into that server over a PVE quester who just wants to pop in to complete a few bounties for the event. If we need to give them their own server to accomplish that, then I'm willing to compromise.

VaranisArano · February 2021

TheForFeeF wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

TheForFeeF wrote: »

This is so incorrect.

I've had people camp me on quest objectives, and will not attack me until I am in the middle of fighting mobs.

Also, I either go in to either PvP or PvE, never both at the same time. So, yes, there are times when there are PvE'ers in IC/Cyro.

If I am in there to PvE and doing PvE objectives, I will not attack other players that are at the same objectives as me. If someone is doing a delve boss, I won't join in, just wait so I don't damage them.

Actually it's not. I didn't say you never get ganked or griefed or camped. It happens, when it does do a different quest, swap campaigns, come back at a different time. Not the answer you want but the best I can give.

And no there are never PvErs in IC/Cyro. You go in to a PvP zone, whether it to do questing, fishing, skysharding, whatever, you do so as a potential target. You go in as both hunter and hunted.

And yes I have done the same with delve bosses and quests. I am not a ganker or a griefer and a reasonable number of those that are are actually so called "PvErs"

You're still incorrect.

You specifically said "Same for delves and skyshards. If you get ganked it's because that player happened to be passing that spot at that time." -> There will be instances of this happening yes - but every gank/camp I've dealt with in IC has been down to people camping at quest objectives and waiting for me to start the mob fight... How am I supposed to deal with a PvP and a PvE boss? I also can't just go and do a different quest in IC since a player is literally halting me from progressing.

Telling people to try at different times/campaigns is actually useless information - I've tried it multiple times and it just hasn't worked. The majority may just let PvE'ers do what they need to do, however, there are people that do specifically camp quest objectives for easy kills.

Again, you are also wrong. When I enter IC/Cyro to PvE - I am not hunting at all. I may be being hunted, but only because some PvPers are looking for easy kills.

Hate to break it to you, but if people go into IC/Cryo to PvE, they are in fact there as PvE'ers. So there will always be PvE'ers in the PvP zones.

I will stick by that PvP and PvE do not belong in the same zone at all. The only way they can co-exist in the same zone is by having it as an optional feature. Look at how WoW does it.

It's my suspicion that players who enter PvPvE zones with the mindset that "I'm a PVEer who's only here to do things that I think are PVE" are the ones who are most primed to get upset when PVP happens in a PvPvE zone.

Mentally, they don't seem to grapple with the full intended risk of a PvPvE zone that PVP is inextricably intertwined with PVE content. They want to put limits on PVP.
"Not in these areas!"
"Not to these players!"
"Not in those ways!"
"Not during these events!"

There is no safe conduct in PvPvE zones. It doesn't matter if we're playing with a PVE-only mindset, a PVE-oriented build, doing questing and skyshard hunting. The whole zone is PVP-enabled and every form of PVP that ZOS allows is fair game - even if the fight isn't "fair."

Saying "I'm a PVEer" doesn't actually mean anything in a PvPvE zone except as a statement about a player's own mindset. Its got nothing to do with the zone or what ZOS intends to happen in that PvPvE zone.

And I say this as someone who used to be a PVE-only player who went to Cyrodiil for Master Angler.

TheForFeeF · February 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheForFeeF wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

TheForFeeF wrote: »

This is so incorrect.

I've had people camp me on quest objectives, and will not attack me until I am in the middle of fighting mobs.

Also, I either go in to either PvP or PvE, never both at the same time. So, yes, there are times when there are PvE'ers in IC/Cyro.

If I am in there to PvE and doing PvE objectives, I will not attack other players that are at the same objectives as me. If someone is doing a delve boss, I won't join in, just wait so I don't damage them.

Actually it's not. I didn't say you never get ganked or griefed or camped. It happens, when it does do a different quest, swap campaigns, come back at a different time. Not the answer you want but the best I can give.

And no there are never PvErs in IC/Cyro. You go in to a PvP zone, whether it to do questing, fishing, skysharding, whatever, you do so as a potential target. You go in as both hunter and hunted.

And yes I have done the same with delve bosses and quests. I am not a ganker or a griefer and a reasonable number of those that are are actually so called "PvErs"

You're still incorrect.

You specifically said "Same for delves and skyshards. If you get ganked it's because that player happened to be passing that spot at that time." -> There will be instances of this happening yes - but every gank/camp I've dealt with in IC has been down to people camping at quest objectives and waiting for me to start the mob fight... How am I supposed to deal with a PvP and a PvE boss? I also can't just go and do a different quest in IC since a player is literally halting me from progressing.

Telling people to try at different times/campaigns is actually useless information - I've tried it multiple times and it just hasn't worked. The majority may just let PvE'ers do what they need to do, however, there are people that do specifically camp quest objectives for easy kills.

Again, you are also wrong. When I enter IC/Cyro to PvE - I am not hunting at all. I may be being hunted, but only because some PvPers are looking for easy kills.

Hate to break it to you, but if people go into IC/Cryo to PvE, they are in fact there as PvE'ers. So there will always be PvE'ers in the PvP zones.

I will stick by that PvP and PvE do not belong in the same zone at all. The only way they can co-exist in the same zone is by having it as an optional feature. Look at how WoW does it.

It's my suspicion that players who enter PvPvE zones with the mindset that "I'm a PVEer who's only here to do things that I think are PVE" are the ones who are most primed to get upset when PVP happens in a PvPvE zone.

Mentally, they don't seem to grapple with the full intended risk of a PvPvE zone that PVP is inextricably intertwined with PVE content. They want to put limits on PVP.
"Not in these areas!"
"Not to these players!"
"Not in those ways!"
"Not during these events!"

There is no safe conduct in PvPvE zones. It doesn't matter if we're playing with a PVE-only mindset, a PVE-oriented build, doing questing and skyshard hunting. The whole zone is PVP-enabled and every form of PVP that ZOS allows is fair game - even if the fight isn't "fair."

Saying "I'm a PVEer" doesn't actually mean anything in a PvPvE zone except as a statement about a player's own mindset. Its got nothing to do with the zone or what ZOS intends to happen in that PvPvE zone.

And I say this as someone who used to be a PVE-only player who went to Cyrodiil for Master Angler.

I actually fully agree with you.

I know the risk of entering a PvPvE zone, so I expect to have to be sneaky.

What really grinds my gears is people who are just waiting for easy kills at quest objectives - mainly in IC. The incentive to kill in IC is to get the stones... however, PvE'ers rarely carry these stones. So, people are just camping to be a *** at this point.

TheForFeeF · February 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheForFeeF wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

TheForFeeF wrote: »

This is so incorrect.

I've had people camp me on quest objectives, and will not attack me until I am in the middle of fighting mobs.

Also, I either go in to either PvP or PvE, never both at the same time. So, yes, there are times when there are PvE'ers in IC/Cyro.

If I am in there to PvE and doing PvE objectives, I will not attack other players that are at the same objectives as me. If someone is doing a delve boss, I won't join in, just wait so I don't damage them.

Actually it's not. I didn't say you never get ganked or griefed or camped. It happens, when it does do a different quest, swap campaigns, come back at a different time. Not the answer you want but the best I can give.

And no there are never PvErs in IC/Cyro. You go in to a PvP zone, whether it to do questing, fishing, skysharding, whatever, you do so as a potential target. You go in as both hunter and hunted.

And yes I have done the same with delve bosses and quests. I am not a ganker or a griefer and a reasonable number of those that are are actually so called "PvErs"

You're still incorrect.

You specifically said "Same for delves and skyshards. If you get ganked it's because that player happened to be passing that spot at that time." -> There will be instances of this happening yes - but every gank/camp I've dealt with in IC has been down to people camping at quest objectives and waiting for me to start the mob fight... How am I supposed to deal with a PvP and a PvE boss? I also can't just go and do a different quest in IC since a player is literally halting me from progressing.

Telling people to try at different times/campaigns is actually useless information - I've tried it multiple times and it just hasn't worked. The majority may just let PvE'ers do what they need to do, however, there are people that do specifically camp quest objectives for easy kills.

Again, you are also wrong. When I enter IC/Cyro to PvE - I am not hunting at all. I may be being hunted, but only because some PvPers are looking for easy kills.

Hate to break it to you, but if people go into IC/Cryo to PvE, they are in fact there as PvE'ers. So there will always be PvE'ers in the PvP zones.

I will stick by that PvP and PvE do not belong in the same zone at all. The only way they can co-exist in the same zone is by having it as an optional feature. Look at how WoW does it.

There are people who have somehow managed to finish the IC PVE questline and get their Cyrodiil achievements. Some of them not very good at PvP. Just saying.

If you need a skyshard or are in the mood to do some PvE quests and just hate PvP, the developers have provided you with more than 90% of the game's content exclusively devoted to your particular preference. In fact, they have spent such an inordinate amount of time and resources to PvE land that they just flat out abandoned their proposed Justice System addition which was intended for the PvP community.

I'm having a hard time seeing the problem here or the argument that somehow having 90% of the game's content devoted to a sector of the community as being unfair to them.

"You want to do all of the PvE quests, but you can only do 90% of them"

PvE and PvP do not belong together.

Goregrinder · February 2021

TheForFeeF wrote: »

Sure, not all PvPers are the problem here - however, its the select few that decide to gank are the issue. And its a constant issue, not like a certain time of day or week or zone. I gave up on IC, which sucks because I aim to get all the quests done in ESO.

Its not like I even need to get good or something - I was doing the "arena" quest early on, and during that, I kept getting ganked. After 2-3 attempts I just gave up because they were waiting there for me. Tell me - how can I play differently to complete that quest? I am focusing on mobs, so I can't sneak or use invis pots.

At that point, they weren't even doing it for the Telvar since I had none on me. They were just trolling.

PvP and PvE doesn't belong in the same zone at all, it creates too much of a conflict.

I only gank on my Nightblade, it's really the best class for it. I brawl on my DK and Necro. Either way you're right, PVE shouldn't have to PVP to get what they want, and PVPers shouldn't have to PVE to get the gear they need. Everything should have PVE or PVP options: Leveling, Mythic/Arena Gear, Event tickets, CP, farming mats, etc. It should be equal to both types of players.

That way 100% of the player base can choose how they want to play the game.

Koronach · February 2021

Goregrinder wrote: »

TheForFeeF wrote: »

Sure, not all PvPers are the problem here - however, its the select few that decide to gank are the issue. And its a constant issue, not like a certain time of day or week or zone. I gave up on IC, which sucks because I aim to get all the quests done in ESO.

Its not like I even need to get good or something - I was doing the "arena" quest early on, and during that, I kept getting ganked. After 2-3 attempts I just gave up because they were waiting there for me. Tell me - how can I play differently to complete that quest? I am focusing on mobs, so I can't sneak or use invis pots.

At that point, they weren't even doing it for the Telvar since I had none on me. They were just trolling.

PvP and PvE doesn't belong in the same zone at all, it creates too much of a conflict.

I only gank on my Nightblade, it's really the best class for it. I brawl on my DK and Necro. Either way you're right, PVE shouldn't have to PVP to get what they want, and PVPers shouldn't have to PVE to get the gear they need. Everything should have PVE or PVP options: Leveling, Mythic/Arena Gear, Event tickets, CP, farming mats, etc. It should be equal to both types of players.

That way 100% of the player base can choose how they want to play the game.

Honestly the problem is probably that a lot of people on ESO, come from just playing the TES series or just Skyrim. So they have no knowledge of MMORPGS or even what PVP is all about. That's prob a lot of the threads that complain about being killed in PVP while doing PVE. They see PVE content in Cyro and remember TES IV and want to check out Cyro with better graphics. It kind of all adds up to cluster, well you know.

Eedat · February 2021

Sarannah wrote: »

Sounds so simple when you put it like that, except for it is not the same at all. You can do PvE with any gear, even PvP gear, noone will stop you. It might take a bit, but noone is capable of stopping you from progressing. In PvP this is different, as other players can halt/stop your progress forever. Not slow it down, but actually put it to a halt, while making you lose all the progress you made up till that point.

Your example would be more fitting, if you did a trial and all trialgear only drops from the final boss. Then after all the slow progress you made in PvP gear to get to the final trial boss, you find a PvE guy just killed him, and you have to start the entire trial all over again. But this can't happen.

Players can't stop you from progressing in PvE, but players can stop you from progressing in PvP. This is the difference.

Noone is asking for PvP zones to be made into PvE zones with all PvP rewards like telvar still available.

You can't do all PvE content in whatever you want though. Nobody is going to give you a spot in their vSS challenge group in a 15k dps 'for funsies' setup. People won't even let you buy no death runs if you're going to insist on doing it with 11k health in 7 light. People not letting you into their groups would be other players halting your progress. You can do pretty much all overland content naked while blindfolded though

Kadraeus · February 2021

erio wrote: »

Another year, another lot of pve posts asking for their own special instance of IC that has PVP disabled.
Heres my logic, in the form of a comparison:
Imagine that I - A mainly pvp player - Wanted to get some fancy smanchy gear and achievements/skins from Vet Sunspire. Well Im a pvp player, and I dont want to learn how to pve properly. I dont want to dedicate time to earning my rewards, I just want to stick to what im good at. Since I love pvp so much, and im not good at pve - I demand a special instance of Vet Sunspire that caters to my pvp skills and lack of pve knowledge. In this special instance, I cannot die, but I can earn all the benefits and rewards!

Do you see my logic here?

Even though I pvp and dont like pve, if I want the hottest new proc set, I have to get ready, and hop on my pve toon to farm it out. You should have to do the same in pvp.

If you arent good at something, you shouldnt reap the rewards imo.

On top of shrinking the pvp playerbase (by removing pvers from pvp ic), it would ruin the economy for telvar since there would be 0 risk associated with it

I don't really like PvP in this game, but I do agree that having a PvE version of the zones just wouldn't work. Side note though: I honestly can't comprehend how someone can be good at PvP but not good at PvE. I don't feel like I put much effort into making my character good for PvE. I just did what I liked and it turned out to be fine for most things as I leveled up. I feel like PvP requires a lot more understanding of how it works to actually enjoy it.

Jeffrey530 · February 2021

I completed all the IC pve story quests when I was a pure pver 2 years ago, tbh other than the arena quest which I had players waiting to farm me so I switched campaigns several times and asked ppl for help, all the other quests are quite smooth so I don't get what the issue is. Most of the quests (from my memory) are turned in either in the sewers or in some indoor area with the non attackable safety mode on (your body will hue purple), so I don't know how people are still getting ganked when talking to the npcs.

Mettaricana · February 2021

Jokes on them the server and performance its really a player vs player vs enemy vs server vs bluescreen...