New CP's system promotes P2W and this is why...

ThorianB · February 2021

ADarklore wrote: »

I'm just curious... people throw out all these CP requirements to "not be squishy"... but what type of content are we talking about?!? PvP, PvE, trials?

The internal team did all current content without any of the CP these people claim you need. I think they even if did it without CP, iirc. Anytime you pressure people that make these claims on how this is going to make it so much worse you get:
1. Try doing X run( achieve) under the new CP system
2. This is going to mess up the leaderboards. No one will be able to obtain those leaderboard numbers again
3. This is a huge nerf to tanks and they will have a difficult time tanking X
4. This will kill PVP as you won't be able to compete unless you grind up.
5. Now end game guilds will have even higher requirements.

All of these are doomsaying. In reality everyone will get a nerf but "elite" players will get the biggest nerf as they tend to get every little bit of performance out of every thing they can. Thus it is going to impact them disproportionately harder. CP won't make or break your character. It doesn't do enough that you can't make up for a lack of with skill and gear. You also don't need all the CP that vet players say you need to do endgame content. You just need it to do it with them at their level of proficiency. Finally, from what i can see we are probably going to end up with another soft cap system with them letting us test above cap because we can try more and find more bugs, give better feedback that way. More than likely we are going to be capped at 1050ish CP or they might go a bit higher to 1200 or so and then do a soft cap increase every quarter like that did before. If that is the case then many of the players who telling you the sky is falling won't even be able to use all the CP they have now.

I do hope i am wrong on that last bit as it would take about 21 years for the soft cap to reach max cap under the 30/quarter a rate which would make for a very bland and boring progression system. It would actually be a worse system than the original as it would eliminate all feeling of progression vertical or otherwise. It needs to be about 120 a quarter if they go with a soft cap system.

Micah_Bayer · February 2021

KovalskyNestor wrote: »

They said that we will gain new cp much faster. No way they will keep this old way, otherwise many players will be discouraged to play (including myself).
Also, correct me if I'm wrong but I think that 1200 is enough for any content.

Not PvP. For pvp, the passives that help you end around 2000 cp.

Rungar · February 2021

Judgedread101071 wrote: »

Let's assume that i have the money to buy crowns (a lot of ppl playing the game,do).

- I sell those crowns for in game gold.

- With the gold i have, I buy every writ I can get my hands on, and XP boost potions ( You get approximatelly 45k xp per writ with xp boost potions)

-Depending on the amount of time you want to spent on a writ table you can probably get 3600 CP in less than a week.

With normal grinding for players like my self who don't have the money to buy crowns,it would take me a couple of years to reach those CP's and i will always be in a disadvantage in both PVP and PVE against players who simply can afford crowns

If this is not a P2W situation, then prove my logic wrong.

FYI I am at 1600 CP and i have done all the hard content there is in this game including Godslayer and Dawnbringer.

To the ppl who think that i am a new player and i am afraid i wont be able to make it in this game,know that you are wrong.

If the fact that i can reach max level (even if i start playing the game today) in an instant, if i have the money to spent on crowns, doesn't seem like a P2W then i am wasting my time

well you can play no cp pvp so there goes that aspect of your theory and as far as pve goes your at no real disadvantage. Half the cp system has already been given to you for free and more than half of the half left is gated in the 4-choice bar and the remaining doesnt offer overwhelming advantages like you think it does.

there will be plenty of players with cp 3600 who still cant finish a vet dlc hardmode because cp isnt the critical factor for completion of that content. Sure it helps but someone with the ability to weave and follow mechanics will eclipse the cp requirements once they get far enough along, which shouldnt be a problem for most players.

zvavi · February 2021

You will need 100k writs for that man. Nobody got the inventory space for that.

Shadowasrial · February 2021

And here I was gonna use all my scrolls to farm skyreach catacombs and selling runs at the same time to make cash. Now I can use my millions of gold to buy writs and max out my cp? Hell yea!

RedMuse · February 2021

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

I can still buy writs with gold though. Also about of raw materials is absurd for this. A different thing though, remember to shop in Alinor if you do this!

Ancient Traders can be your one stop shop for your dreams!

Personally I'd recommend The Jolly Farmers in Elden Root if you're on PC/EU. Not that I have any personal stakes in this or anything :P

Eedat · February 2021

You would need to drop tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of gold to level this way lol. And that's at current prices. If even a small number of people used this strategy, the prices for those writs would skyrocket through the roof due the sheer volume of them required to level a single account to 2500. This new system heavily favors people who spend tons of time in game doing random normals and overland content. PvPers and endgame PvEers are SOL as the XP you get for these activities is trash tier. Calling it pay2win is absolutely absurd. People will find any way they can to desparatly cling to their agenda

ghost_bg_ESO · February 2021

and i've just got exited for this 150-ish writs sitting there waiting for me to get motifs...
cool i can get 5 - 7 champion levels

and nope.

Khajiitihaswares · February 2021

From what I have read the op is complaining about pay for convince... It’s not pay to win....

tmbrinks · February 2021

KovalskyNestor wrote: »

Leveling up to 1200 will be faster after that it stays the same. You need 1711 to get all the important passives and 4 actives, if you want to be the strongest you can be its 2221 and thats if you select active skills you can access right away, actives behind actives will be more expensive ofc.

Oh didn't know that.. thank you for the info, I can see why people are frustrated now.

except those numbers are completely wrong with the changes made in 6.3.2.

With the amount of misinformation and disinformation going around, it's no wonder people have no clue what is happening...

Septimus_Magna · February 2021

First of all, pay2win is literally buying an item/class/race which gives an unfair advantage compared to players who dont buy this. Buying crowns and selling them for in-game gold is not P2W because in-game gold can be obtained in many ways that dont require any real money. You might save time farming in-game gold but everyone can acquire millions by just playing the game.

The new CP system 2.0 is less P2W (in your definition) than the current CP system, the power difference between low and high CP will become less because you gain less power through CP (or indirectly XP) and everyone gets them as raw stats. Besides, a 3600CP player without any skill will still perform terrible so any P2W argument related to the CP system is a bit far-fetched if you ask me.

JKorr · February 2021

tmbrinks wrote: »

KovalskyNestor wrote: »

Leveling up to 1200 will be faster after that it stays the same. You need 1711 to get all the important passives and 4 actives, if you want to be the strongest you can be its 2221 and thats if you select active skills you can access right away, actives behind actives will be more expensive ofc.

Oh didn't know that.. thank you for the info, I can see why people are frustrated now.

except those numbers are completely wrong with the changes made in 6.3.2.

With the amount of misinformation and disinformation going around, it's no wonder people have no clue what is happening...

But without TEH DRAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no one would pay attention to another dead horse being pounded down to the subatomic level.....again.

Notice no one ever specifies what someone "wins". If you hit the mystical magical absolute top cp number are you instantly made Emperor permanently? Does the bis/best trait-has-to-be-farmed gear appear in your inventory? No matter how badly you might do you are at the top of the trial leaderboards? All your pvp enemies are lagged 2 seconds behind your actions when fighting? In an open-ended mmo that has limited world changes, how do you "win"?

Starlock · February 2021

This game has been on the spectrum of pay-to-win for a long time, @Judgedread101071 - that's not anything new. And you're right - changing the XP progression for CP adds another dimension to that spectrum. Or rather, it extends an already existing dimension of that spectrum. As someone who is very harshly critical of ZoS's predatory monetization of this game, I'm not that worried about this. Though granted, the reason I'm not worried about this is because the pay-to-win skips are already so bad in this game this new extension really doesn't significantly change the picture. We're going from customers being able to pay for XP boosters to... still being able to pay for XP boosters. And skill lines. And skill points. *sigh*

Jaxious79 · February 2021

Starlock wrote: »

This game has been on the spectrum of pay-to-win for a long time, @Judgedread101071 - that's not anything new. And you're right - changing the XP progression for CP adds another dimension to that spectrum. Or rather, it extends an already existing dimension of that spectrum. As someone who is very harshly critical of ZoS's predatory monetization of this game, I'm not that worried about this. Though granted, the reason I'm not worried about this is because the pay-to-win skips are already so bad in this game this new extension really doesn't significantly change the picture. We're going from customers being able to pay for XP boosters to... still being able to pay for XP boosters. And skill lines. And skill points. *sigh*

I will go easy please explain ONE P2W element in ESO. I will wait.

What you described at the end of your post are all conveniences nothing to do with P2W.

convenience
[kənˈvēnyəns]
NOUN
the state of being able to proceed with something with little effort or difficulty.

Sgrug · February 2021

Jaxious79 wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

This game has been on the spectrum of pay-to-win for a long time, @Judgedread101071 - that's not anything new. And you're right - changing the XP progression for CP adds another dimension to that spectrum. Or rather, it extends an already existing dimension of that spectrum. As someone who is very harshly critical of ZoS's predatory monetization of this game, I'm not that worried about this. Though granted, the reason I'm not worried about this is because the pay-to-win skips are already so bad in this game this new extension really doesn't significantly change the picture. We're going from customers being able to pay for XP boosters to... still being able to pay for XP boosters. And skill lines. And skill points. *sigh*

I will go easy please explain ONE P2W element in ESO. I will wait.

What you described at the end of your post are all conveniences nothing to do with P2W.

Well you do have to buy the base game. So in effect you are paying to win...😛

I do agree, this is not pay to win.

Velocious_Curse · February 2021

Assuming the max XP you get from those writs is the 46k as you mentioned, to go from 1600 to 3600, you'll need to do just shy of 71k writs.

i dont know how much "paying" to win you wanna do...

Jaxious79 · February 2021

Sgrug wrote: »

Jaxious79 wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

This game has been on the spectrum of pay-to-win for a long time, @Judgedread101071 - that's not anything new. And you're right - changing the XP progression for CP adds another dimension to that spectrum. Or rather, it extends an already existing dimension of that spectrum. As someone who is very harshly critical of ZoS's predatory monetization of this game, I'm not that worried about this. Though granted, the reason I'm not worried about this is because the pay-to-win skips are already so bad in this game this new extension really doesn't significantly change the picture. We're going from customers being able to pay for XP boosters to... still being able to pay for XP boosters. And skill lines. And skill points. *sigh*

I will go easy please explain ONE P2W element in ESO. I will wait.

What you described at the end of your post are all conveniences nothing to do with P2W.

Well you do have to buy the base game. So in effect you are paying to win...😛

I do agree, this is not pay to win.

At this point people use "P2W" to get clicks. It has lost all its meaning and has become some kool phrase to start endless bashing of a game or feature they don't like.

Zer0_CooL · February 2021

There could be an emp scroll with a 2hr timer in Crownstore and people would argue its not p2w.

WabanakiWarrior · February 2021

Are you guys talking about master writs? Do they give a lot of xp? I never even noticed, I've only ever completed them on a fully leveled toon and stopped paying attention to XP gains long ago

Kiralyn2000 · February 2021

Judgedread101071 wrote: »

Artorias24 wrote: »

Judgedread101071 wrote: »

FYI I am at 1600 CP and i have done all the hard content there is in this game including Godslayer and Dawnbringer.

To the ppl who think that i am a new player and i am afraid i wont be able to make it in this game,know that you are wrong.

If the fact that i can reach max level (even if i start playing the game today) in an instant, if i have the money to spent on crowns, doesn't seem like a P2W then i am wasting my time

I wouldnt call it p2w. In this case more like pay to convenient. P2w ist something you can only get with spending money and other players cant get if they dont spend the same Money.

Only cause you got boosted to max level wont make you win against another max level Player that leveled the normal way.

Although i DO see your logic.imagine a different scenario which WILL happen to some ppl.

Say we both start today.and we both have the same amount of time to spend in the game and equal skill.

But say we both start today - the thousands of other players who started 3+ years ago are all ahead of us.

And I don't care how fast you get to level cap, I'm having fun just playing the game. Why is it a competition?

Meanwhile... there have been people with 10's of millions of gold since long before crown gifting happened. So anything that you say "throw gold at the problem = p2w!" is silly. There's lots of ways to get lots of gold (and the products thereof) without spending $.

Rungar · February 2021

Starlock wrote: »

This game has been on the spectrum of pay-to-win for a long time, @Judgedread101071 - that's not anything new. And you're right - changing the XP progression for CP adds another dimension to that spectrum. Or rather, it extends an already existing dimension of that spectrum. As someone who is very harshly critical of ZoS's predatory monetization of this game, I'm not that worried about this. Though granted, the reason I'm not worried about this is because the pay-to-win skips are already so bad in this game this new extension really doesn't significantly change the picture. We're going from customers being able to pay for XP boosters to... still being able to pay for XP boosters. And skill lines. And skill points. *sigh*

predatory monetization?

your analysis is flawed and incomplete. Your confusing zos's monetization of convenience with pay to win.

No subscription is required and the only real benefit to a subscription is storage.
exp boosters are given out like candy in this game.
skill lines is a long time player request and you can do it unless youve done it already. This game is 7 years old.
expansions are the business model. There is no game without expansion sales.

your not being fair imo.

Jeffrey530 · February 2021

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

There could be an emp scroll with a 2hr timer in Crownstore and people would argue its not p2w.

There could be nothing but a cosmetic pet in Crownstore and people would argue its p2w.

Firstmep · February 2021

Judgedread101071 wrote: »

Let's assume that i have the money to buy crowns (a lot of ppl playing the game,do).

- I sell those crowns for in game gold.

- With the gold i have, I buy every writ I can get my hands on, and XP boost potions ( You get approximatelly 45k xp per writ with xp boost potions)

-Depending on the amount of time you want to spent on a writ table you can probably get 3600 CP in less than a week.

With normal grinding for players like my self who don't have the money to buy crowns,it would take me a couple of years to reach those CP's and i will always be in a disadvantage in both PVP and PVE against players who simply can afford crowns

If this is not a P2W situation, then prove my logic wrong.

FYI I am at 1600 CP and i have done all the hard content there is in this game including Godslayer and Dawnbringer.

To the ppl who think that i am a new player and i am afraid i wont be able to make it in this game,know that you are wrong.

If the fact that i can reach max level (even if i start playing the game today) in an instant, if i have the money to spent on crowns, doesn't seem like a P2W then i am wasting my time

Yeah this crowns to gold argument never held any weight ever, and frankly you could apply it to the rest of the game..

TwiceBornStar · February 2021

Judgedread101071 wrote: »

If this is not a P2W situation, then prove my logic wrong.

It's not about me proving you or your logic wrong, but I would like to contribute something to your thread so maybe you can put things in perspective. Sure, there are people who play this game 24/7, there are people who write programs and use bots to play it for them and there are people who throw heaps of money at this game because they want to advance quicker than the average player. Just remember that the vast majority of players spend an average amount of time and are advancing just as slow/fast as you are. You have 1600 Champion points? That's good, right? It means you're about 613 Champion points ahead of me, and with this pandemic going on outside, I've been playing like a maniac on some days, because I don't really know what to do with my days off. But you're still ahead. I'm ahead of others as well. And so on, and so on. My point? We're all in the same boat, but personally I'm excited there's something to advance in again. Something to progress. Something to work on. I've only started playing this game two years ago, and eventhough I can be competitive and like trying sometimes, I don't really can, have to, need to or want to be the best at everything. So yeah, look at the bright side: You can progress your characters again, and the same goes for everyone else. There will always be people ahead of you. Just don't forget about the people who are behind you?

This is why a new level cap hasn't got anything to do with pay-to-win. And really, you can still enter Battlegrounds and Campaigns with Champion Points disabled. I'd say that's a fair fight.

What can I say? I'm an optimist!

Kiralyn2000 · February 2021

Being able to buy Crowns for gold, literally insulates the game from "p2w" arguments.

Because a player who just has gold, and doesn't spend actual $ is still able to get cash shop items.

Which means that $-spenders don't have any kind of extra advantage over those who don't spend $.

JamieAubrey · February 2021

Me who's never done a single writ, like who cares, Only people that will be CP3600 week 1 will be those try hards

Me who plays in no CP in PVP why would I bother grinding to max CP when I'll never use them ? Even in PvE I don't have any set

Starlock · February 2021

Jaxious79 wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

This game has been on the spectrum of pay-to-win for a long time, @Judgedread101071 - that's not anything new. And you're right - changing the XP progression for CP adds another dimension to that spectrum. Or rather, it extends an already existing dimension of that spectrum. As someone who is very harshly critical of ZoS's predatory monetization of this game, I'm not that worried about this. Though granted, the reason I'm not worried about this is because the pay-to-win skips are already so bad in this game this new extension really doesn't significantly change the picture. We're going from customers being able to pay for XP boosters to... still being able to pay for XP boosters. And skill lines. And skill points. *sigh*

I will go easy please explain ONE P2W element in ESO. I will wait.

What you described at the end of your post are all conveniences nothing to do with P2W.

Paying for convenience (pay-to-skip) is part of the pay-to-win spectrum. It grants a clear gameplay advantage in terms of time saved or invested (they say "time is money" after all), especially in a game that has no real win conditions like a GaaS (and MMOs are a type of GaaS).

If you have a problem calling it pay-to-win, then don't. What we call it doesn't matter - the fact that this is not a pro-customer way of approaching game design doesn't change with the label. Developers of GaaS deliberately create impediments to gameplay and then sell customers the solution instead of just... changing the game design or not selling these boosters in the first place. It's an addiction/money trap, deliberately designed as such, and the ethics of that are dubious at best.

Kiralyn2000 · February 2021

edit: eh, nm. Not worth it.

xaraan · February 2021

Well they need to continue to balance the CP IMO.

You should be able to buy all the passives in CP and buy enough slottable CP powers by the time you hit 1000 CP IMO. Then any CP you earn after that is more for convenience sake of not needing to respec to change stuff around.

So if you want to grind all that, go at it, but it doesn't buy you power, only convenience.

I also have taken interest in the idea of not forcing people to split their points into three, if someone wants to build a super crafter and go all into the green tree, then they should be able to, or all into combat for someone that is lower CP and wants to at least be able to stand toe to toe combat wise sooner rather than later. I think the splitting the points is too tied to the old system and isn't needed anymore with having slottable powers. And if balanced around higher tiers being only for convenience won't hurt anything and only help some players with lower CP "catch up" power wise.

ThorianB · February 2021

Jaxious79 wrote: »

Sgrug wrote: »

Jaxious79 wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

This game has been on the spectrum of pay-to-win for a long time, @Judgedread101071 - that's not anything new. And you're right - changing the XP progression for CP adds another dimension to that spectrum. Or rather, it extends an already existing dimension of that spectrum. As someone who is very harshly critical of ZoS's predatory monetization of this game, I'm not that worried about this. Though granted, the reason I'm not worried about this is because the pay-to-win skips are already so bad in this game this new extension really doesn't significantly change the picture. We're going from customers being able to pay for XP boosters to... still being able to pay for XP boosters. And skill lines. And skill points. *sigh*

I will go easy please explain ONE P2W element in ESO. I will wait.

What you described at the end of your post are all conveniences nothing to do with P2W.

Well you do have to buy the base game. So in effect you are paying to win...😛

I do agree, this is not pay to win.

At this point people use "P2W" to get clicks. It has lost all its meaning and has become some kool phrase to start endless bashing of a game or feature they don't like.

Uhhh, your post is pay 2 win, fyi.

Seriously though, i don't think most people that use P2W on these forums have ever played an actual P2W game. You will know if you are playing a P2W game because if you are, you will feel violated constantly whether you are paying or not. If you are paying you will have to keep feeding the game money like a slot machine in order to stay competitive( or usually just to prevent yourself from becoming easy prey) and if you don't pay you are basically just content for those that do with no hope of ever being on equal footing no matter how much time and effort you put into the game.

ESO is not even close to that, not even in the same universe.