StarOfElyon wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

Dark elves are in a good place. They offer offensive playstyles in both mag and stam department. Certainly adding 258 weapon damage to high elves and 258 magic damage to orcs have changed things up a bit to offer more options (especially in off meta department). However, at this point : Zos might as well make the stam and mag dark elves gain 2000 (up from 1910). 1910 is such a random number and the 90 difference between dark elves and high elves is pretty much negligible.

But overall: i won't criticize Zos for offering more options to the playerbase (there are many players who like to have orc magicka users and high elf stam playstyle).

They're better in pvp now. It's not actually off-meta. I would love for my Altmer to get almost 2k stam for sprinting, dodging and breaking free.

High elves passive that give resources to their "off stat" whenever you use any ability is pretty much similar to dark elves getting flat resources in both mag and stam. If you have a mag high elf you regen stam and if you have stam high elf you regen mag. 625 every 6 six seconds comes to around 208 recovery. I play both races on live and i have tested them on PTS. With the massive stat inflation given to you via Zos making base characters have 16K health and 12k mag and stam plus the mag and stam you can get via the new CP 2.0, the races play similarly. In addition the changes to major/minor intellect and endurance has also narrowed the gap between high elf and dark elf. Thats why i said Zos giving 2000 to dark elves (as opposed to 1910) is negligible for dark elves vs high elves when playing a pure mag setup.

Now true hybrid setup is a different story...

StarOfElyon wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

Dark elves are in a good place. They offer offensive playstyles in both mag and stam department. Certainly adding 258 weapon damage to high elves and 258 magic damage to orcs have changed things up a bit to offer more options (especially in off meta department). However, at this point : Zos might as well make the stam and mag dark elves gain 2000 (up from 1910). 1910 is such a random number and the 90 difference between dark elves and high elves is pretty much negligible.

But overall: i won't criticize Zos for offering more options to the playerbase (there are many players who like to have orc magicka users and high elf stam playstyle).

They're better in pvp now. It's not actually off-meta. I would love for my Altmer to get almost 2k stam for sprinting, dodging and breaking free.

High elves passive that give resources to their "off stat" whenever you use any ability is pretty much similar to dark elves getting flat resources in both mag and stam. If you have a mag high elf you regen stam and if you have stam high elf you regen mag. 625 every 6 six seconds comes to around 208 recovery. I play both races on live and i have tested them on PTS. With the massive stat inflation given to you via Zos making base characters have 16K health and 12k mag and stam plus the mag and stam you can get via the new CP 2.0, the races play similarly. In addition the changes to major/minor intellect and endurance has also narrowed the gap between high elf and dark elf. Thats why i said Zos giving 2000 to dark elves (as opposed to 1910) is negligible for dark elves vs high elves when playing a pure mag setup.

Now true hybrid setup is a different story...

Part of me hopes that stat inflation goes through (from a PVE standpoint) but from a PVP standpoint, it sounds like it's too much. People will be near impossible to kill.

yeah i agree with you. The stat inflation will be good for PVE, but for PVP it remains to be seen how it will play out. One thing is certain; Zos is shaking things up for sure.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Dunmer are the best stam dps race now. They are a better magicka dps race than they were before. An Orc that wants to be a mag DPS is no competition for a Dunmer, an Altmer that wants to be stam DPS is no competition for a Dunmer. They are still the best when it comes to being flexible but now they are better at each individually too.

This guy/gal put it best.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

Dark elves are in a good place. They offer offensive playstyles in both mag and stam department. Certainly adding 258 weapon damage to high elves and 258 magic damage to orcs have changed things up a bit to offer more options (especially in off meta department). However, at this point : Zos might as well make the stam and mag dark elves gain 2000 (up from 1910). 1910 is such a random number and the 90 difference between dark elves and high elves is pretty much negligible.

But overall: i won't criticize Zos for offering more options to the playerbase (there are many players who like to have orc magicka users and high elf stam playstyle).

They're better in pvp now. It's not actually off-meta. I would love for my Altmer to get almost 2k stam for sprinting, dodging and breaking free.

High elves passive that give resources to their "off stat" whenever you use any ability is pretty much similar to dark elves getting flat resources in both mag and stam. If you have a mag high elf you regen stam and if you have stam high elf you regen mag. 625 every 6 six seconds comes to around 208 recovery. I play both races on live and i have tested them on PTS. With the massive stat inflation given to you via Zos making base characters have 16K health and 12k mag and stam plus the mag and stam you can get via the new CP 2.0, the races play similarly. In addition the changes to major/minor intellect and endurance has also narrowed the gap between high elf and dark elf. Thats why i said Zos giving 2000 to dark elves (as opposed to 1910) is negligible for dark elves vs high elves when playing a pure mag setup.

Now true hybrid setup is a different story...

Part of me hopes that stat inflation goes through (from a PVE standpoint) but from a PVP standpoint, it sounds like it's too much. People will be near impossible to kill.

yeah i agree with you. The stat inflation will be good for PVE, but for PVP it remains to be seen how it will play out. One thing is certain; Zos is shaking things up for sure.

Idk if someone has touched on this yet, but a big pain point of pvp for CP and non CP is proc sets.

Well now that the power of our characters has shifted from being extremely high % based multipliers to flat values, we're going to see our actual abilities buffed while proc sets nerfed. Think about it.. you have bonuses like 23% direct damage, 20% dot damage and 11% elemental damage shifting to 4k stamina, 1k weapon damage, etc. The multipliers are still available, but they're much weaker and you need to waste 3/4 slots for 10% single target, aoe and dot.

So there is an obvious shift of power there going from stats that only apply to our character vs previous bonuses that applied to everything like sets. It's pretty genious of them.

@MashmalloMan
Yeah I had been considering this as well, but the more I think about I become a bit less sure.

The issue is that the proc base build also gains the flat stats which increase that builds skills by the same amount, so assuming the skills are being used the end result is the same.

Example using some totally fictional numbers:
Consider two versions of a build, with the difference being that one uses proc sets and the other uses pure stat sets. Everything else is the same in terms buffs and skills, burst combo etc.

Let’s say that prior to this update that the proc version does a total of 10k dps from procs plus skills, let’s say 5k from procs and 5k from skills. And let’s say somehow the stat based version manages the say 10k dps (by somehow having double the stats) but it’s obviously all from skills. (While these aren’t necessarily realistic numbers I’m just trying to illustrate a point)

So, now with the cp % modifiers gone let’s say that’s a 20% reduction. This applies to both versions, so the proc version is now 8k dps (4K from each of procs and skills) and likewise the skills version also drops to 8k. Then apply the new flat buffs. Say this is enough to add 2k to the stat version, so it goes from 8k back to 10k dps. However, the proc version also gets this, so it now has 6k from skills and 4K from procs and gets back to the same 10k.

So sure, the proportion of proc damage has reduced, but the two build’s output are still the same as each other like they were at the start. The proc version hasn’t got comparatively weaker.

The only way a stat based build can benefit more from the flat buffs is if they have some multiplicative factors with those flat buffs the proc build doesn’t. Unfortunately the most likely source of this would be crit, which is often invalidated by malacath anyway and even if not is getting nerfed this update so becomes less desirable in general.

Obviously though if someone isn’t using skills though and relying 100% on proc damage to them they will be worse off as they won’t benefit from the flat buffs. Also a different story in nocp.

All that said though, really, I don’t know. There’s so many Things being turned on their head this update.

[edit: just realised this is somewhat off topic to the thread, apologies]

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

Dark elves are in a good place. They offer offensive playstyles in both mag and stam department. Certainly adding 258 weapon damage to high elves and 258 magic damage to orcs have changed things up a bit to offer more options (especially in off meta department). However, at this point : Zos might as well make the stam and mag dark elves gain 2000 (up from 1910). 1910 is such a random number and the 90 difference between dark elves and high elves is pretty much negligible.

But overall: i won't criticize Zos for offering more options to the playerbase (there are many players who like to have orc magicka users and high elf stam playstyle).

They're better in pvp now. It's not actually off-meta. I would love for my Altmer to get almost 2k stam for sprinting, dodging and breaking free.

High elves passive that give resources to their "off stat" whenever you use any ability is pretty much similar to dark elves getting flat resources in both mag and stam. If you have a mag high elf you regen stam and if you have stam high elf you regen mag. 625 every 6 six seconds comes to around 208 recovery. I play both races on live and i have tested them on PTS. With the massive stat inflation given to you via Zos making base characters have 16K health and 12k mag and stam plus the mag and stam you can get via the new CP 2.0, the races play similarly. In addition the changes to major/minor intellect and endurance has also narrowed the gap between high elf and dark elf. Thats why i said Zos giving 2000 to dark elves (as opposed to 1910) is negligible for dark elves vs high elves when playing a pure mag setup.

Now true hybrid setup is a different story...

Part of me hopes that stat inflation goes through (from a PVE standpoint) but from a PVP standpoint, it sounds like it's too much. People will be near impossible to kill.

yeah i agree with you. The stat inflation will be good for PVE, but for PVP it remains to be seen how it will play out. One thing is certain; Zos is shaking things up for sure.

Idk if someone has touched on this yet, but a big pain point of pvp for CP and non CP is proc sets.

Well now that the power of our characters has shifted from being extremely high % based multipliers to flat values, we're going to see our actual abilities buffed while proc sets nerfed. Think about it.. you have bonuses like 23% direct damage, 20% dot damage and 11% elemental damage shifting to 4k stamina, 1k weapon damage, etc. The multipliers are still available, but they're much weaker and you need to waste 3/4 slots for 10% single target, aoe and dot.

So there is an obvious shift of power there going from stats that only apply to our character vs previous bonuses that applied to everything like sets. It's pretty genious of them.

@MashmalloMan
Yeah I had been considering this as well, but the more I think about I become a bit less sure.

The issue is that the proc base build also gains the flat stats which increase that builds skills by the same amount, so assuming the skills are being used the end result is the same.

Example using some totally fictional numbers:
Consider two versions of a build, with the difference being that one uses proc sets and the other uses pure stat sets. Everything else is the same in terms buffs and skills, burst combo etc.

Let’s say that prior to this update that the proc version does a total of 10k dps from procs plus skills, let’s say 5k from procs and 5k from skills. And let’s say somehow the stat based version manages the say 10k dps (by somehow having double the stats) but it’s obviously all from skills. (While these aren’t necessarily realistic numbers I’m just trying to illustrate a point)

So, now with the cp % modifiers gone let’s say that’s a 20% reduction. This applies to both versions, so the proc version is now 8k dps (4K from each of procs and skills) and likewise the skills version also drops to 8k. Then apply the new flat buffs. Say this is enough to add 2k to the stat version, so it goes from 8k back to 10k dps. However, the proc version also gets this, so it now has 6k from skills and 4K from procs and gets back to the same 10k.

So sure, the proportion of proc damage has reduced, but the two build’s output are still the same as each other like they were at the start. The proc version hasn’t got comparatively weaker.

The only way a stat based build can benefit more from the flat buffs is if they have some multiplicative factors with those flat buffs the proc build doesn’t. Unfortunately the most likely source of this would be crit, which is often invalidated by malacath anyway and even if not is getting nerfed this update so becomes less desirable in general.

Obviously though if someone isn’t using skills though and relying 100% on proc damage to them they will be worse off as they won’t benefit from the flat buffs. Also a different story in nocp.

All that said though, really, I don’t know. There’s so many Things being turned on their head this update.

[edit: just realised this is somewhat off topic to the thread, apologies]

Didn't see your response til after i posted earlier. You hit the nail on the head. The stat increases is not exclusive to just stat build players, but all players. So max stat players got a boost for sure, but proc players also got the stat increases too, which may open up other options to enhance their playstyle (supplement procs with multiple dots). First we have to see how Zos adjust these PTS changes, then we have to see how the final patch translates to the general playerbase.

I don't really see a problem as a dark elf main, it's still best race to swap from mag to stam and back, not that I saw it coming other races made similar but see no harm there at all. Pretty sure it's not last race changes this year.

ThePainGuy wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

Dark elves are in a good place. They offer offensive playstyles in both mag and stam department. Certainly adding 258 weapon damage to high elves and 258 magic damage to orcs have changed things up a bit to offer more options (especially in off meta department). However, at this point : Zos might as well make the stam and mag dark elves gain 2000 (up from 1910). 1910 is such a random number and the 90 difference between dark elves and high elves is pretty much negligible.

But overall: i won't criticize Zos for offering more options to the playerbase (there are many players who like to have orc magicka users and high elf stam playstyle).

They're better in pvp now. It's not actually off-meta. I would love for my Altmer to get almost 2k stam for sprinting, dodging and breaking free.

High elves passive that give resources to their "off stat" whenever you use any ability is pretty much similar to dark elves getting flat resources in both mag and stam. If you have a mag high elf you regen stam and if you have stam high elf you regen mag. 625 every 6 six seconds comes to around 208 recovery. I play both races on live and i have tested them on PTS. With the massive stat inflation given to you via Zos making base characters have 16K health and 12k mag and stam plus the mag and stam you can get via the new CP 2.0, the races play similarly. In addition the changes to major/minor intellect and endurance has also narrowed the gap between high elf and dark elf. Thats why i said Zos giving 2000 to dark elves (as opposed to 1910) is negligible for dark elves vs high elves when playing a pure mag setup.

Now true hybrid setup is a different story...

I remember saying this the first time classes got changed but it really depends on how you use your stam bar. if its a short fight you are better off with dark elf. Longer fight favors highelf. Also if you tend to need a couple of rolldodge/blocks darkelf also wins, if there more spread out in the fight highelf is better.

Another big thing is the resistance to fire. Both have similar mag pools and spell damage but fire is the most common type of damage in the game which ends up being a big plus to dark elf

Imagine a game where "Spell Damage" and "Weapon Damage" are just "Damage" and then take another look at the passives.

Dark Elf is fine.

Weird might as well give every race both recoveries and resources

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

The main selling point of dunmer was the hybridization of their damage racial passive. Allowing them to get weapon and magicka damage. But with both orc (old best stam) and altmer( old best mag) getting both spell and weapon damage... it makes dunmer absolutely a lesser race now. Especially without fire immunity. They'll be regulated to bottom of the barrel below the bosmer.

No, their selling point was never the weapon/spell damage. Anyone that was actually trying to play a hybrid was using sets that buffed both, and probably pelinals on top of that making them equal.

The real selling point of Dark Elf was the boosted stam and mag pools. Dark elf still has one of the HIGHEST stam pools in the game behind select few, making it valuable. They also retain the best passives for someone who want's to hybridize because of the of the fact they get both resorces. Sure, orcs have spell damage now and high elves have weapon damage now, but they still only excel in one resource.

Other than that, they had immunity to burning, which was great against a very small handful of specs. Now they just have more fire resistance. Not a big deal there.

The truth about Dark Elf is that they were never the best at anything (except back when they had fire damage for the mag dks), and they won't be. They have always been a sub optimal choice and they these changes will not affect their standing in the slightest. Hell, if it did, I imagine they would actually go UP on people's lists rather than down.

You do realize that dark elves are now better damage classes for stam than orcs right?

And now the only difference between dark elf and high elf for magicka damage is 60 max magicka (basically nothing) and the high elf’s minor sustain boost.

Dark elves are going to be the most meta race to play for anyone who likes being able to switch from stamina focus to magicka focus without needing blow $30 worth of crowns.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

The main selling point of dunmer was the hybridization of their damage racial passive. Allowing them to get weapon and magicka damage. But with both orc (old best stam) and altmer( old best mag) getting both spell and weapon damage... it makes dunmer absolutely a lesser race now. Especially without fire immunity. They'll be regulated to bottom of the barrel below the bosmer.

below the Bosmer? wow that's hard to accomplish *weeps in nerf history*

QuebraRegra wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

The main selling point of dunmer was the hybridization of their damage racial passive. Allowing them to get weapon and magicka damage. But with both orc (old best stam) and altmer( old best mag) getting both spell and weapon damage... it makes dunmer absolutely a lesser race now. Especially without fire immunity. They'll be regulated to bottom of the barrel below the bosmer.

below the Bosmer? wow that's hard to accomplish *weeps in nerf history*

Have you seen redguard?

PS dunmer may actually be bis for damage now you can’t be farther from the bottom