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• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 15, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
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We will be performing maintenance for patch 11.2.0 on the PTS on Monday at 8:00AM EDT (12:00 UTC).
For information - All races set bonus equivalent worth in current patch
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Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You take it if:
You just like it.
It is better in thing you need.
If you like it and it is bad in ALL, it is desapoitment !
If you need some thing good, you will not even take it.
What if I take Nord because I like to be bulkier in frost-based dungeons? You can't just ignore a stat if it's only situationally useful.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 2, 2021 2:16PM1 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭What are you writing ???
It looks for me like :
We have 2 apples. We add 3 oranges to it and all this becomes 5 potato.
5 potato 🥔 cost like 10 kg in some country, but it is not a food.
And Fish 🐟 is a food !
Wish can be 2 kg ! So it is like 5 fishes !
So 2 apples + 3 oranges = 5 fishes !!!
It just do not work like this, can you pls make calculation in real conditions, where stats you use can be usefull !!!
If race is bad tank, bad heal, bad DD, even if it has a lot of useless stats it is useless.
So no one will play 10 item sets bonuses race if it will look like:
5 k fire res, 5k snow res, 5 k desis res, 5 k and etc !
You calculate it like 1.75 bonus ?
But 8 stats like that are just as 5 k resists, that is 4 - 2 set bonuses right ?
So you can calculate it differently, but lets talk about REAL conditions where it is possible to use.
Not some theory that can not be used.
You take race not becouse of theory.
You take it if:
You just like it.
It is better in thing you need.
If you like it and it is bad in ALL, it is desapoitment !
If you need some thing good, you will not even take it.
What we're doing isn't rigorous in the same way a mathematical proof is. Something like that would be impossible. But we're trying to find good arguments that would pass a plausibility check to do something sort of like a fermi estimate, assuming you're familiar with that way of thinking.
Just calculate DPS output for DD, where no one shots comes. With and with out self sustain / support sustain.
Healing and surviveability for HEALer with sustain and no oneshots + guard on tank as example.
And surviving on tank with common work, with its resource sustaine. And self healing.
In real condition of some trials people care about like vCR or i do not know what is populre now.Edited by AyaDark on February 2, 2021 2:21PM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »The most fair way to rank partial resistances is probably to assume 50:50 split betweem magic and physical damage, with each subtype of damage being equally common.
I can partially agree with that. Elemental resistances bypass armor cap making them actually useful. However this applies only to dungeons and PvP. There is no trial with other damage types than magic, physical, poison, shock and fire. So a ranking between elemental passives is needed.
About bypass armor cap, can you pls show some examples, i may be do not understand you right ?
If you are sitting at 33000 resistances, you achieved maximal damage reduction from armor you can get. Having any armor above that does absolutely nothing. However, elemental resistances ignore this cap and you can mitigate damage for the respective elemental type further.
For simplicity.
33k armor gives you 50% damage mitigation.
40k armor gives you 50% damage mitigation.
33k armor and 3,3k frost resistance gives you 55% mitigation from frost damage.
And tanks usually sit at armor cap so elemental resistances may be useful to them, especially the fire one (SS dragons breath hard).Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 2, 2021 2:24PM0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Ok I have updated the OP to include an alternate value for each race with a resistance bonus.
I made it so it uses a variable that indicates the proportion (0-1) of incoming damage of that type, rather than assuming a proportion, which I was trying to avoid doing.
That way it is up to the reader how much they think that component is worth, although I will also include the value assuming an equal distribution as an example.2 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »The most fair way to rank partial resistances is probably to assume 50:50 split betweem magic and physical damage, with each subtype of damage being equally common.
I can partially agree with that. Elemental resistances bypass armor cap making them actually useful. However this applies only to dungeons and PvP. There is no trial with other damage types than magic, physical, poison, shock and fire. So a ranking between elemental passives is needed.
About bypass armor cap, can you pls show some examples, i may be do not understand you right ?
If you are sitting at 33000 resistances, you achieved maximal damage reduction from armor you can get. Having any armor above that does absolutely nothing. However, elemental resistances ignore this cap and you can mitigate damage for the respective elemental type further.
For simplicity.
33k armor gives you 50% damage mitigation.
40k armor gives you 50% damage mitigation.
33k armor and 3,3k frost resistance gives you 55% mitigation from frost damage.
And tanks usually sit at armor cap so elemental resistances may be useful to them, especially the fire one (SS dragons breath hard).
With all changes - frost dragon have magick or frost damage ?
The same for KA ?
Just do not know where to find any good damage from frost, in trials.
To make it any help from that cold resistance.Edited by AyaDark on February 2, 2021 2:33PM0 -
Kuratius✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »The most fair way to rank partial resistances is probably to assume 50:50 split betweem magic and physical damage, with each subtype of damage being equally common.
I can partially agree with that. Elemental resistances bypass armor cap making them actually useful. However this applies only to dungeons and PvP. There is no trial with other damage types than magic, physical, poison, shock and fire. So a ranking between elemental passives is needed.
About bypass armor cap, can you pls show some examples, i may be do not understand you right ?
If you are sitting at 33000 resistances, you achieved maximal damage reduction from armor you can get. Having any armor above that does absolutely nothing. However, elemental resistances ignore this cap and you can mitigate damage for the respective elemental type further.
For simplicity.
33k armor gives you 50% damage mitigation.
40k armor gives you 50% damage mitigation.
33k armor and 3,3k frost resistance gives you 55% mitigation from frost damage.
And tanks usually sit at armor cap so elemental resistances may be useful to them, especially the fire one (SS dragons breath hard).
With all changes - frost dragon have magick or frost damage ?
The same for KA ?
Just do not know where to find any good damage from frost, in trials.
To make it any help from that cold resistance.
You're looking for a specific use case, while we're trying to gauge the general power level. I think you're barking up the wrong tree.Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 2:35PM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »The most fair way to rank partial resistances is probably to assume 50:50 split betweem magic and physical damage, with each subtype of damage being equally common.
I can partially agree with that. Elemental resistances bypass armor cap making them actually useful. However this applies only to dungeons and PvP. There is no trial with other damage types than magic, physical, poison, shock and fire. So a ranking between elemental passives is needed.
About bypass armor cap, can you pls show some examples, i may be do not understand you right ?
If you are sitting at 33000 resistances, you achieved maximal damage reduction from armor you can get. Having any armor above that does absolutely nothing. However, elemental resistances ignore this cap and you can mitigate damage for the respective elemental type further.
For simplicity.
33k armor gives you 50% damage mitigation.
40k armor gives you 50% damage mitigation.
33k armor and 3,3k frost resistance gives you 55% mitigation from frost damage.
And tanks usually sit at armor cap so elemental resistances may be useful to them, especially the fire one (SS dragons breath hard).
With all changes - frost dragon have magick or frost damage ?
The same for KA ?
Just do not know where to find any good damage from frost, in trials.
To make it any help from that cold resistance.
Lokkestiiz does mostly Frost damage to the MT. Even his basic attacks are frost damage.
Galenwe in Cloudrest also includes a lot of frost damage attacks. This includes the frost-picking mechanics which is not exclusive to tanks.
There is no frost damage in KA outside of the frost aoe on the ground Captain Vrol does, I believe.
There are quite a few frost damage dungeons out there.
I think this is enough to at least account for the frost passive. It's not as useful as Fire resistance passive of a Dunmer, but still worthy to mention and not ignore.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 2, 2021 2:39PM1 -
Kuratius✭✭✭Ameliorated bonuses assuming equal incidence and adjusted orc healing
Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 2:40PM0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
Note that Khajiit’s crit damage bound is unique amongst all the bonuses in that is the only damage effect that is multiplicative with the additional flat stats everyone gets. So Khajiit actually leverages those a bit better than everyone else, which is an indirect buff. I don’t know if this is enough to offset the nerfs to crit chance though, most likely not. But it is something to keep in mind. Have to wait till they fix the dummy and we see some parses.0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »The most fair way to rank partial resistances is probably to assume 50:50 split betweem magic and physical damage, with each subtype of damage being equally common.
I can partially agree with that. Elemental resistances bypass armor cap making them actually useful. However this applies only to dungeons and PvP. There is no trial with other damage types than magic, physical, poison, shock and fire. So a ranking between elemental passives is needed.
About bypass armor cap, can you pls show some examples, i may be do not understand you right ?
If you are sitting at 33000 resistances, you achieved maximal damage reduction from armor you can get. Having any armor above that does absolutely nothing. However, elemental resistances ignore this cap and you can mitigate damage for the respective elemental type further.
For simplicity.
33k armor gives you 50% damage mitigation.
40k armor gives you 50% damage mitigation.
33k armor and 3,3k frost resistance gives you 55% mitigation from frost damage.
And tanks usually sit at armor cap so elemental resistances may be useful to them, especially the fire one (SS dragons breath hard).
With all changes - frost dragon have magick or frost damage ?
The same for KA ?
Just do not know where to find any good damage from frost, in trials.
To make it any help from that cold resistance.
You're looking for a specific use case, while we're trying to gauge the general power level. I think you're barking up the wrong tree.
If in game is no situation where some magick "kukaracha" - name it damage do real problem, what is a point to calculate its powerand useness if NO SUCH DAMAGE is in game ?
No situation where it will help?
Is not it just useless calculations ?
Or we will just get META 2.0 with 100500 ways to avoid such damage with no such damage in game
By english is bad, i do not know how to wright it better , people just understand me sorry.
But for what reason we need such calculation ?
Will it help in vCR+3 ? Some content ?
We have Best tank in game.
Why ?
Have 100000 resistance to "kukaracha".
Is such problem in any trial ?
Nope.
Just based on calculations.Edited by AyaDark on February 2, 2021 2:48PM0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »This is your list after removing situational /generaller less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.
Did you stop accounting for Orc heal proc alltogether? I think out of all useless passives such as elemental resistances, Orc heal is the only that actually does something that is not situationaly useful
Yeah, I did. If you include it, orc tops both charts.
Yeah that heal bonus is wildly distorting, with its individual worth of like 4.8. I keep trying to think of a reason why its shouldn't follow the rules that apply to other resource restore effects, but can't really think of one.
Maybe we could compare it to health recovery bonus. That's the nearest we can get I think.
Unify it to health restored per second and then directly compare it. The only problem is that modifiers for hp regen and orc heal differ. But we get at least a rough estimate.
I just suggest comparing it to 5pc Beekeeper bonus.
Problem with comparing to sets is that we do not know if different 5pc sets bonus represnt same value. For instance, Argonian potion passive (PTS version) is 3125 tri-stat recources restore. This translate to 138 tri-stat recovery.
(3125 / 45 = 69, so x2 = 138)
^ So it is more like 1 infused jewellery tri-stat recovery glyph that has 134 tri-stat recovery and not a 5 pcs set bonus.
Argonian Passive 138 vs 134 jewellery glyph.
^ Hence the reaon I was comparing argonian recovery to tri-stat recover glyph.
If I were to compare Argonian potion passive to a set it would be probably be Amber Plasm:
(5 items) Adds 276 Magicka Recovery, Adds 276 Stamina Recovery, Adds 276 Health Recovery
...And it seems it would be 0.5 of Amber Plasm (276 / 2 = 138).
Comparing Orc 500-ish health restore it is almost 2x of infused health recovery glyph's 270 and 0.6 of beekeeper's 900-ish recovery.
However, we don't know if different 5pcs set represents same "power budget" (Amber Plasm vs Eternal Vigor for example).
Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on February 2, 2021 2:58PM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »
Note that Khajiit’s crit damage bound is unique amongst all the bonuses in that is the only damage effect that is multiplicative with the additional flat stats everyone gets. So Khajiit actually leverages those a bit better than everyone else, which is an indirect buff. I don’t know if this is enough to offset the nerfs to crit chance though, most likely not. But it is something to keep in mind. Have to wait till they fix the dummy and we see some parses.
The problem is general stat diminishing returns. You have a ton of crit damage bonuses already (major force, minor force, minor brittle, elemental catalyst, new CPs, Warden/Templar/NB) making additional crit damage bonuses less useful. That's why people simply avoided Khajit for top-end DDs, especially nightblades and templars.1 -
Kuratius✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »The most fair way to rank partial resistances is probably to assume 50:50 split betweem magic and physical damage, with each subtype of damage being equally common.
I can partially agree with that. Elemental resistances bypass armor cap making them actually useful. However this applies only to dungeons and PvP. There is no trial with other damage types than magic, physical, poison, shock and fire. So a ranking between elemental passives is needed.
About bypass armor cap, can you pls show some examples, i may be do not understand you right ?
If you are sitting at 33000 resistances, you achieved maximal damage reduction from armor you can get. Having any armor above that does absolutely nothing. However, elemental resistances ignore this cap and you can mitigate damage for the respective elemental type further.
For simplicity.
33k armor gives you 50% damage mitigation.
40k armor gives you 50% damage mitigation.
33k armor and 3,3k frost resistance gives you 55% mitigation from frost damage.
And tanks usually sit at armor cap so elemental resistances may be useful to them, especially the fire one (SS dragons breath hard).
With all changes - frost dragon have magick or frost damage ?
The same for KA ?
Just do not know where to find any good damage from frost, in trials.
To make it any help from that cold resistance.
You're looking for a specific use case, while we're trying to gauge the general power level. I think you're barking up the wrong tree.
If in game is no situation where some magick "kukaracha" - name it damage do real problem, what is a point to calculate its powerand useness if NO SUCH DAMAGE is in game ?
No situation where it will help?
Is not it just useless calculations ?
Or we will just get META 2.0 with 100500 ways to avoid such damage with no such damage in game
By english is bad, i do not know how to wright it better , people just understand me sorry.
But for what reason we need such calculation ?
Will it help in vCR+3 ? Some content ?
We have Best tank in game.
Why ?
Have 100000 resistance to "kukaracha".
Is such problem in any trial ?
Nope.
Just based on calculations.
You're fundamentally misunderstanding the point of this.
Make your own estimates if you want to make it specific to veteran trials and nowhere else.
We're looking at power budget, not specific use cases.
Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 2:59PM0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.Edited by the1andonlyskwex on February 2, 2021 3:10PM0 -
Kuratius✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 3:15PM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
I understand what are you trying to say, but you can't just neglect the fact that you have more stamina to block or more magicka to dark deal. We aren't comparing here the usefulness of the passive, we are comparing the power budget.
By your logic, I can say that Breton 2k magicka should be less than 1,82 because it's not useful on a stamDD.
Although, comparing it to shacklebreaker changes things. Standard 5pc bonus is 2,32 of normal set bonus. Dunmer is 0,955 of Shacklebreaker, so the passive should be worth of 2,21 instead of 2*1,74?
All this Is a little inacurrate because of different power budget of 5 pc bonuses. We should avoid 5 pc bonus comparison as much as we can.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 2, 2021 3:22PM0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »The most fair way to rank partial resistances is probably to assume 50:50 split betweem magic and physical damage, with each subtype of damage being equally common.
I can partially agree with that. Elemental resistances bypass armor cap making them actually useful. However this applies only to dungeons and PvP. There is no trial with other damage types than magic, physical, poison, shock and fire. So a ranking between elemental passives is needed.
About bypass armor cap, can you pls show some examples, i may be do not understand you right ?
If you are sitting at 33000 resistances, you achieved maximal damage reduction from armor you can get. Having any armor above that does absolutely nothing. However, elemental resistances ignore this cap and you can mitigate damage for the respective elemental type further.
For simplicity.
33k armor gives you 50% damage mitigation.
40k armor gives you 50% damage mitigation.
33k armor and 3,3k frost resistance gives you 55% mitigation from frost damage.
And tanks usually sit at armor cap so elemental resistances may be useful to them, especially the fire one (SS dragons breath hard).
With all changes - frost dragon have magick or frost damage ?
The same for KA ?
Just do not know where to find any good damage from frost, in trials.
To make it any help from that cold resistance.
You're looking for a specific use case, while we're trying to gauge the general power level. I think you're barking up the wrong tree.
If in game is no situation where some magick "kukaracha" - name it damage do real problem, what is a point to calculate its powerand useness if NO SUCH DAMAGE is in game ?
No situation where it will help?
Is not it just useless calculations ?
Or we will just get META 2.0 with 100500 ways to avoid such damage with no such damage in game
By english is bad, i do not know how to wright it better , people just understand me sorry.
But for what reason we need such calculation ?
Will it help in vCR+3 ? Some content ?
We have Best tank in game.
Why ?
Have 100000 resistance to "kukaracha".
Is such problem in any trial ?
Nope.
Just based on calculations.
You're fundamentally misunderstanding the point of this.
Make your own estimates if you want to make it specific to veteran trials and nowhere else.
We're looking at power budget, not specific use cases.
OK. I get 9999 kukaracha damage to my brain.
And just i better go away.
Have a nice day, and good game.
I just better do not wright anything about this more.Edited by AyaDark on February 2, 2021 3:20PM0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
Counting it only once isn't fair either. And so is the comparison between Crafty Alfiq and Shacklebreaker, we can't sinply neglect the 2k stamina bonus as if it wasn't there. And the more you can make use of both stats, the more valuable the passive becomes.
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 2, 2021 3:31PM0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
I understand what are you trying to say, but you can't just neglect the fact that you have more stamina to block or more magicka to dark deal. We aren't comparing here the usefulness of the passive, we are comparing the power budget.
By your logic, I can say that Breton 2k magicka should be less than 1,82 because it's not useful on a stamDD.
Although, comparing it to shacklebreaker changes things. Standard 5pc bonus is 2,32 of normal set bonus. Dunmer is 0,955 of Shacklebreaker, so the passive should be worth of 2,21 instead of 2*1,74?
All this Is a little inacurrate because of different power budget of 5 pc bonuses. We should avoid 5 pc bonus comparison as much as we can.
You're the one that's making an argument based on real world usefulness and not set bonus standards. We have several examples from real sets where ZOS has clearly defined their power budget with mag+stam being lower valued than either would be on its own. If you want to discount 5 piece bonuses, you absolutely should be using the 1 piece standard set by two different monster sets (which is just a standard one "point" set bonus in all other cases), where the value of mag+stam is essentially identical to the value of mag or stam on their own (which I agree doesn't really make sense in practice, and is why I also included Shacklebreaker).0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@the1andonlyskwex Does this look like a good compromise?Olupajmibanan wrote: »
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
0 -
Kuratius✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
That'd basically mean valuing it like a tri stat bonus, but like I said it's hard to do that very consistently.Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
Counting it only once isn't fair either. And so is the comparison between Crafty Alfiq and Shacklebreaker, we can't sinply neglect the 2k stamina bonus as if it wasn't there. And the more you can make use of both stats, the more valuable the passive becomes.
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
I think that's possible, but it'd mean that you'd have to use similar logic for all races that aren't focused on a single stat and give them a similar penalty. It's really more DPS oriented than anything else to apply a penalty for mixed stats, so I think it's too specific.Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 3:35PM0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I also think the High Elf resource restore passive is being overvalued, because it specifically restores your off/secondary resource, but I don't have any good examples from set bonuses to support that (other than the different values placed on dual and tri state restore, which imply that adding an off stat bonus to a primary stat bonus increases the total value by a lot less than simple addition would imply).0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »@the1andonlyskwex Does this look like a good compromise?Olupajmibanan wrote: »
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
Yes, that's just using the Shacklebreaker standard, which I originally suggested as an option before you dismissed using 5 piece bonuses for comparisons.0 -
Kuratius✭✭✭Would it be a good compromise to go with the mean between 66 % and 100 % value?
So about 83 % value? This seems like the orc passive, in that you can probably argue a bit either way.
Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 3:42PM0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
That'd basically mean valuing it like a tri stat bonus, but like I said it's hard to do that very consistently.Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
Counting it only once isn't fair either. And so is the comparison between Crafty Alfiq and Shacklebreaker, we can't sinply neglect the 2k stamina bonus as if it wasn't there. And the more you can make use of both stats, the more valuable the passive becomes.
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
I think that's possible, but it'd mean that you'd have to use similar logic for all races that aren't focused on a single stat and give them a similar penalty. It's really more DPS oriented than anything else to apply a penalty for mixed stats, so I think it's too specific.
We're already only counting spell+weapon damage as a single bonus, so none of this is new.0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »@the1andonlyskwex Does this look like a good compromise?Olupajmibanan wrote: »
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
Yes, that's just using the Shacklebreaker standard, which I originally suggested as an option before you dismissed using 5 piece bonuses for comparisons.
You mistake me with someone. I was the one comparing High Elf damage reduction while casting to Light of Cyrodiil 5pc bonus, and Orc heal bonus to Beekeeper 5pc bonus from the very beggining.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 2, 2021 3:41PM0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Would it be a good compromise to go with the mean between 66 % and 100 % value?
So about 83 % value? This seems like the orc passive, in that you can probably argue a bit either way.
No, based on the actual set bonuses we have for comparison, the correct weighting is somewhere between 50% (Domihaus, Swarm Mother) and 62% (Shacklebreaker).Edited by the1andonlyskwex on February 2, 2021 3:47PM0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »@the1andonlyskwex Does this look like a good compromise?Olupajmibanan wrote: »
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
Yes, that's just using the Shacklebreaker standard, which I originally suggested as an option before you dismissed using 5 piece bonuses for comparisons.
You mistake me with someone. I was the one comparing High Elf damage reduction while casting to Light of Cyrodiil 5pc bonus, and Orc heal bonus to Beekeeper 5pc bonus from the very beggining.Olupajmibanan wrote: »All this Is a little inacurrate because of different power budget of 5 pc bonuses. We should avoid 5 pc bonus comparison as much as we can.
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