Maintenance for the week of September 15:
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 15, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 15, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
We will be performing maintenance for patch 11.2.0 on the PTS on Monday at 8:00AM EDT (12:00 UTC).
For information - All races set bonus equivalent worth in current patch
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Kuratius✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
That'd basically mean valuing it like a tri stat bonus, but like I said it's hard to do that very consistently.Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
Counting it only once isn't fair either. And so is the comparison between Crafty Alfiq and Shacklebreaker, we can't sinply neglect the 2k stamina bonus as if it wasn't there. And the more you can make use of both stats, the more valuable the passive becomes.
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
I think that's possible, but it'd mean that you'd have to use similar logic for all races that aren't focused on a single stat and give them a similar penalty. It's really more DPS oriented than anything else to apply a penalty for mixed stats, so I think it's too specific.
We're already only counting spell+weapon damage as a single bonus, so none of this is new.
I'm not saying that you don't have a point, but stamina is useful for things other than strict dps, so assigning a value is slightly more complicated. I don't think the power level of High Elf and Dark Elf for just about any role in the game except maybe stamina dps is very far apart. Admittedly this isn't necessarily a good argument, but I still think something like 75 %-80 % is a better penalty to apply. Originally dark elves were intended to have around 3000 total resources, before ZOS decided to buff their bonuses during PTS to make them more viable as a hybrid race.
Maybe you could use food as a point of comparison? Single stat vs bi stat food?
I think food is probably the best standard to apply in this case. I don't think it's a fundamentally better argument than using set bonuses for the power budget, I just also don't think it's worse.Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 3:55PM1 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
That'd basically mean valuing it like a tri stat bonus, but like I said it's hard to do that very consistently.Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
Counting it only once isn't fair either. And so is the comparison between Crafty Alfiq and Shacklebreaker, we can't sinply neglect the 2k stamina bonus as if it wasn't there. And the more you can make use of both stats, the more valuable the passive becomes.
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
I think that's possible, but it'd mean that you'd have to use similar logic for all races that aren't focused on a single stat and give them a similar penalty. It's really more DPS oriented than anything else to apply a penalty for mixed stats, so I think it's too specific.
We're already only counting spell+weapon damage as a single bonus, so none of this is new.
I'm not saying that you don't have a point, but stamina is useful for things other than strict dps, so assigning a value is slightly more complicated. I don't think the power level of High Elf and Dark Elf for just about any role in the game except maybe stamina dps is very far apart. Admittedly this isn't necessarily a good argument, but I still think something like 75 %-80 % is a better penalty to apply. Originally dark elves were intended to have around 3000 total resources, before ZOS decided to buff their bonuses during PTS to make them more viable as a hybrid race.
Maybe you could use food as a point of comparison? Single stat vs bi stat food?
Food bonuses are 61%, or basically the same as Shacklebreaker.1 -
Kuratius✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
That'd basically mean valuing it like a tri stat bonus, but like I said it's hard to do that very consistently.Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
Counting it only once isn't fair either. And so is the comparison between Crafty Alfiq and Shacklebreaker, we can't sinply neglect the 2k stamina bonus as if it wasn't there. And the more you can make use of both stats, the more valuable the passive becomes.
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
I think that's possible, but it'd mean that you'd have to use similar logic for all races that aren't focused on a single stat and give them a similar penalty. It's really more DPS oriented than anything else to apply a penalty for mixed stats, so I think it's too specific.
We're already only counting spell+weapon damage as a single bonus, so none of this is new.
I'm not saying that you don't have a point, but stamina is useful for things other than strict dps, so assigning a value is slightly more complicated. I don't think the power level of High Elf and Dark Elf for just about any role in the game except maybe stamina dps is very far apart. Admittedly this isn't necessarily a good argument, but I still think something like 75 %-80 % is a better penalty to apply. Originally dark elves were intended to have around 3000 total resources, before ZOS decided to buff their bonuses during PTS to make them more viable as a hybrid race.
Maybe you could use food as a point of comparison? Single stat vs bi stat food?
Food bonuses are 61%, or basically the same as Shacklebreaker.
Incorrect, it's about 81 %.
1 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »@the1andonlyskwex Does this look like a good compromise?Olupajmibanan wrote: »
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
Yes, that's just using the Shacklebreaker standard, which I originally suggested as an option before you dismissed using 5 piece bonuses for comparisons.
You mistake me with someone. I was the one comparing High Elf damage reduction while casting to Light of Cyrodiil 5pc bonus, and Orc heal bonus to Beekeeper 5pc bonus from the very beggining.Olupajmibanan wrote: »All this Is a little inacurrate because of different power budget of 5 pc bonuses. We should avoid 5 pc bonus comparison as much as we can.
You got me on that.
We should use what we can to solve each individual case. Also the WD/SD passive of orcs, dunmers and altmers. How much is it worth? Is it 2 thanks to Shacklebreaker standard bonus? Or is it more just like in the case of Dunmer stam+mag bonus?Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 2, 2021 4:00PM1 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
That'd basically mean valuing it like a tri stat bonus, but like I said it's hard to do that very consistently.Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
Counting it only once isn't fair either. And so is the comparison between Crafty Alfiq and Shacklebreaker, we can't sinply neglect the 2k stamina bonus as if it wasn't there. And the more you can make use of both stats, the more valuable the passive becomes.
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
I think that's possible, but it'd mean that you'd have to use similar logic for all races that aren't focused on a single stat and give them a similar penalty. It's really more DPS oriented than anything else to apply a penalty for mixed stats, so I think it's too specific.
We're already only counting spell+weapon damage as a single bonus, so none of this is new.
I'm not saying that you don't have a point, but stamina is useful for things other than strict dps, so assigning a value is slightly more complicated. I don't think the power level of High Elf and Dark Elf for just about any role in the game except maybe stamina dps is very far apart. Admittedly this isn't necessarily a good argument, but I still think something like 75 %-80 % is a better penalty to apply. Originally dark elves were intended to have around 3000 total resources, before ZOS decided to buff their bonuses during PTS to make them more viable as a hybrid race.
Maybe you could use food as a point of comparison? Single stat vs bi stat food?
Food bonuses are 61%, or basically the same as Shacklebreaker.
Incorrect, it's about 81 %.
You're doing the math wrong. The "value" of the stats on bi stat food is 6048/(4936*2)=0.61=61%Edited by the1andonlyskwex on February 2, 2021 4:01PM1 -
Kuratius✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »@the1andonlyskwex Does this look like a good compromise?Olupajmibanan wrote: »
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
Yes, that's just using the Shacklebreaker standard, which I originally suggested as an option before you dismissed using 5 piece bonuses for comparisons.
You mistake me with someone. I was the one comparing High Elf damage reduction while casting to Light of Cyrodiil 5pc bonus, and Orc heal bonus to Beekeeper 5pc bonus from the very beggining.Olupajmibanan wrote: »All this Is a little inacurrate because of different power budget of 5 pc bonuses. We should avoid 5 pc bonus comparison as much as we can.
You got me on that.
We should use what we can to solve each individual case. Also the WD/SD passive of orcs, dunmers and altmers. How much is it worth? Is it 2 thanks to Shacklebreaker standard bonus?
Personally I wouldn't go that far. Weapon/Spell damage are generally not useful on the same build, and many set bonuses give both in equal measure without taking penalties.1 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »@the1andonlyskwex Does this look like a good compromise?Olupajmibanan wrote: »
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
Yes, that's just using the Shacklebreaker standard, which I originally suggested as an option before you dismissed using 5 piece bonuses for comparisons.
You mistake me with someone. I was the one comparing High Elf damage reduction while casting to Light of Cyrodiil 5pc bonus, and Orc heal bonus to Beekeeper 5pc bonus from the very beggining.Olupajmibanan wrote: »All this Is a little inacurrate because of different power budget of 5 pc bonuses. We should avoid 5 pc bonus comparison as much as we can.
You got me on that.
We should use what we can to solve each individual case. Also the WD/SD passive of orcs, dunmers and altmers. How much is it worth? Is it 2 thanks to Shacklebreaker standard bonus?
Personally I wouldn't go that far. Weapon/Spell damage are generally not useful on the same build, and many set bonuses give both in equal measure without taking penalties.
But you know,
258 SD < 258 WD + 258 SD
Therefore, the value shouldn't be the same. Think of Barbed Trap and Bash Weaving.1 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »@the1andonlyskwex Does this look like a good compromise?Olupajmibanan wrote: »
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
Yes, that's just using the Shacklebreaker standard, which I originally suggested as an option before you dismissed using 5 piece bonuses for comparisons.
You mistake me with someone. I was the one comparing High Elf damage reduction while casting to Light of Cyrodiil 5pc bonus, and Orc heal bonus to Beekeeper 5pc bonus from the very beggining.Olupajmibanan wrote: »All this Is a little inacurrate because of different power budget of 5 pc bonuses. We should avoid 5 pc bonus comparison as much as we can.
You got me on that.
We should use what we can to solve each individual case. Also the WD/SD passive of orcs, dunmers and altmers. How much is it worth? Is it 2 thanks to Shacklebreaker standard bonus? Or is it more just like in the case of Dunmer stam+mag bonus?
I think only counting SD+WD once is okay, particularly since all races with one have been changed to have both, but also because there are a lot of sets that give both as a single bonus.
From a practical perspective, there are a lot fewer cases where people benefit from having both as compared to something like stam+mag.1 -
Kuratius✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
That'd basically mean valuing it like a tri stat bonus, but like I said it's hard to do that very consistently.Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
Counting it only once isn't fair either. And so is the comparison between Crafty Alfiq and Shacklebreaker, we can't sinply neglect the 2k stamina bonus as if it wasn't there. And the more you can make use of both stats, the more valuable the passive becomes.
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
I think that's possible, but it'd mean that you'd have to use similar logic for all races that aren't focused on a single stat and give them a similar penalty. It's really more DPS oriented than anything else to apply a penalty for mixed stats, so I think it's too specific.
We're already only counting spell+weapon damage as a single bonus, so none of this is new.
I'm not saying that you don't have a point, but stamina is useful for things other than strict dps, so assigning a value is slightly more complicated. I don't think the power level of High Elf and Dark Elf for just about any role in the game except maybe stamina dps is very far apart. Admittedly this isn't necessarily a good argument, but I still think something like 75 %-80 % is a better penalty to apply. Originally dark elves were intended to have around 3000 total resources, before ZOS decided to buff their bonuses during PTS to make them more viable as a hybrid race.
Maybe you could use food as a point of comparison? Single stat vs bi stat food?
Food bonuses are 61%, or basically the same as Shacklebreaker.
Incorrect, it's about 81 %.
You're doing the math wrong. The "value" of the stats on bi stat food is 6048/(4936*2)=0.61=61%
Ah, ty.
Out of curiosity, would you say the same argument applies to other bi stat racials like imperial?
Because that's basically same penalty that you'd apply for tri stat bonuses, like we have for argonian and khajit.
And I think an equivalent (without penalties) bi stat pool of mag+stam is still generally more powerful than a tri stat pool without penalties, so it should probably not have the same or a lower penalty.
I'll see if I can come up with a better argument later. I'm satisfied with the current ranking because it sort of feels right to have dark elf and high elf being equally powerful, but that might be an arbitrary choice more concerned with dps than set bonus power budgets.1 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
That'd basically mean valuing it like a tri stat bonus, but like I said it's hard to do that very consistently.Olupajmibanan wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you're overvaluing the Dark Elf mag+stam bonuses. Compare Shacklebreaker to Crafty Alfiq, and look at the one piece bonus on Domihaus (or Swarm Mother). Unfortunately, even those two examples are inconsistent with each other, but it's certainly clear that mag+stam is worth less than the sum of it's parts.
You could probably look at domihaus, but I don't think simply halving the value is good. Probably just subtract a third or so? So similar to a 3 stat bonus with one stat lacking. Still, it might make it too complicated to apply this consistently to all races (and it's really more dps oriented than anything).
Based on Domihaus, the OP is outright double counting the Dark Elf mag+stam bonus. I'm not really sure that's fair though, since a comparison to Crafty Alfiq values Shacklebreaker's 5 piece as 2550/4130 or 0.62x as much as an equivalent single-stat bonus (instead of 0.5x).
Counting it only once isn't fair either. And so is the comparison between Crafty Alfiq and Shacklebreaker, we can't sinply neglect the 2k stamina bonus as if it wasn't there. And the more you can make use of both stats, the more valuable the passive becomes.
I'd say the easiest calculation for Dunmer value would be:
- 5pc bonuses standardized to have value of 2,32
- Dunmer being 92,71% of Shacklebreaker
Therefore Dunmer having value of the passive at 2,15 instead of 3,48 (1,74+1,74).
I think that's possible, but it'd mean that you'd have to use similar logic for all races that aren't focused on a single stat and give them a similar penalty. It's really more DPS oriented than anything else to apply a penalty for mixed stats, so I think it's too specific.
We're already only counting spell+weapon damage as a single bonus, so none of this is new.
I'm not saying that you don't have a point, but stamina is useful for things other than strict dps, so assigning a value is slightly more complicated. I don't think the power level of High Elf and Dark Elf for just about any role in the game except maybe stamina dps is very far apart. Admittedly this isn't necessarily a good argument, but I still think something like 75 %-80 % is a better penalty to apply. Originally dark elves were intended to have around 3000 total resources, before ZOS decided to buff their bonuses during PTS to make them more viable as a hybrid race.
Maybe you could use food as a point of comparison? Single stat vs bi stat food?
Food bonuses are 61%, or basically the same as Shacklebreaker.
Incorrect, it's about 81 %.
You're doing the math wrong. The "value" of the stats on bi stat food is 6048/(4936*2)=0.61=61%
Ah, ty.
Out of curiosity, would you say the same argument applies to other bi stat racials like imperial?
Because that's basically same penalty that you'd apply for tri stat bonuses, like we have for argonian and khajit.
And I think an equivalent (without penalties) bi stat pool of mag+stam is still generally more powerful than a tri stat pool without penalties, so it should probably not have the same or a lower penalty.
I'll see if I can come up with a better argument later. I'm satisfied with the current ranking because it sort of feels right to have dark elf and high elf being equally powerful, but that might be an arbitrary choice more concerned with dps than set bonus power budgets.
I've always gone by the racial bonuses for this (so it's circular logic for the current discussion), but ZOS seems to weight bi-stat bonuses involving health differently from mag+stam bonuses. I assume the reasoning is that health is more useful to most people than an off-type damage stat.Edited by the1andonlyskwex on February 2, 2021 4:23PM1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just wanna drop by to say that this has been a very interesting read and I like how the table went from "no, that's completely wrong and doesn't align with my perceived reality" to "yeah that's about right". You are doing a good job in here!This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »There has been a lot of discussion this patch about racial balance following the changes to some races. Among this there has often been comparisons made of various race’s individual passives worth using the general set bonus values. However, these have often been incomplete or comparing a single passive. So I thought I would post this to try to give an overall picture of each races racial set bonus value for the updated passives.
The purpose of this isn’t to show if races are stronger or weaker, as there is definitely still some subjectivity in the set bonus values and their relative worth, but merely provide a complete basis for comparison when discussing or comparing the racial passives using set bonus values, as well as pointing out some of the weaknesses of this approach.
Establishing Equivalent Set Bonus Values – either because they exist as set bonuses, or from conversion from 5 piece bonuses, glyphs, jewelry traits, mundus stones or minor buffs(note, these don’t always line up, so where there was a discrepancy I used them in this order). In the case of resource restore I have applied a factor of 1.7 (assuming an average of +70% regen bonuses, which hopefully is about right given +40% from major buff, and then a couple of either the minor buff, armor passive and/or class passives). This gives the following valuesDirect from Sets:
Health: 1206
Mag/Stam: 1096
Tri-Stat (total) : 1699 (*note there is a slight approximation here as tri stats from sets/glyphs are slightly weight towards health, but tri stats from races are even. But the error should be small)
Regen: 129
Damage: 129 of both
Pen: 1487
Armor: 1487
Healing Done: 4%
Using 5 piece set bonuses as reference (5 piece bonuses are worth 2.32 a set bonus)
Cost Reduction: 10/2.32=4.31 (Using Seducer as reference)
Tri Cost Reduction: 6/2.32=2.58 (Using Alteration Mastery as reference)
Snare Reduction: 50/2.32 = 21.55 (Using Ranger’s Gait)
Ult Gen: 6/5 /2.32 = 0.52 ult/s (from werewolf hide 6 ult every 1.5 sec)
Damage Reduction while casting: 15/2.32*0.9 = 5.82 (from Light of Cyrodiil, but apply a factor of 0.9 as this isn't the full effect of that sets five piece)
Using Jewelry glyphs as reference (glyphs are worth 1.31-1.35 a set bonus, using 1.33)
Tri-Regen (total): 129*1.5=193.5 (Prismatic recovery indicate tri regen totals 1.5x single recovery)
Resist Element** : 3520/1.33 = 2646.6
Using Jewellery Traits (jewelry traits are worth 0.8 of a set bonus)
Speed: 7/0.8 = 8.75 (using swift as reference)
Using Mundus (mundus is worth 1.85 of a set bonus)
Crit Damage: 11/1.85 = 5.96 (Using Shadow)
From minor buffs (in the last update ZOS has indicated that minor buffs are worth 2 set lines)
Using the conversion for regen to restore using a factor of 1.7 (assuming +70% regen bonuses are average)
Restore (per 2 sec) : 129*1.7 = 219.3
Tri Restore (total per 2 sec): 193.5*1.7 = 328.95
Note there are still some racial passives that it isn’t easy to establish a set value for as they don’t exist as bonuses from any of the above sources, which includes weapon cost reduction, damage reduction while casting, sprint speed and cost reduction, sneak radius reduction and detection radius increase. Generally in the case of these passives I am calculating the set worth without it or making an estimate of a suggested value.
Additionally, in the case of stamina resources restore , it should be noted that there is a slight use case advantage of this over regen, in that it will still work while blocking (or in the case of magicka restore when using magicka blocking). This potentially gives a slight advantage that is note shown in these numbers to races that have such resource restore (Argonian, High Elf, Redguard).
**Also, I think that this process is overvaluing elemental resistances – the equivalent set worth for an element resist is less than double the armor value, but only applies to 1/8 of the damage types (which seems a bit weak). I am still using this as I have no other basis for comparison, but it should be noted that any race with these (indicated by ** below) probably has a higher set worth value than it would if these resists were worth less.
[EDIT Following some discussion I have added an alternate method of including the elemental resistances, simply by getting calculating it based on what proportion of incoming damage is that damage type. I'll leave it up to you to decide how much incoming damage is of that type.]
On to the races:
Breton: 5.31 *
(*) because Breton’s spell resistance is variable, and there is also no basis for comparison for just spell resistance. It could be argued that spell resistance standard set line is double that of armour, and this is what was used in conjunction with the assumption of 10% uptime of the extra resistance. If its more Breton would have higher worth.Mag: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Mag Regen: 130/129 = 1.01
Spell Resist: (2310 + 0.1*2310)/(1487*2) = 0.85
Mag Cost Red: 7/4.31 = 1.62
Total: 6.01
Redguard: 5.28 *
(*) I made an estimate here that weapon cost reductions standard set bonus would be double generic cost reduction, based on the assumption that weapon abilities make up half the abilities used. This is obviously a very general assumption, so if a lesser proportion weapon abilities is used, redguard gets proportionally weaker value wise.
This value also includes snare reduction, which really could have been ignored given some of the other non-conbat “flavor” passives that were ignored for other races. If so, Redguard is even worse set value than the number above.Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam Restore: (1005/5*2)/219.3 = 1.83
Weapon Cost Red: 8/(4.31*2) = 0.93
Snare Reduction: 15/21.55 = 0.70
Total: 5.28
Orc: 8.97 * (4.12 without the heal passive) [edit: there has been some discussion on finding an good basis for comparison for the orc heal. Using the standard set regen bonus of 129 and scaling for recovery buffs (like is done for every other restore value) results in the 8.97. If the beekeeper 5 piece is used instead, this becomes 5.73, but it should be noted that this is a deviation from the standard set bonuses]
(*) Personally I think the heal is being way over valued here and is artificially inflating this value, as it makes up over half the value for the race. The heal is significantly higher than say, High Elf or Redguard restore, but the heal is probably less useful. Unfortunately I had no basis to factor this in, so just take the above value with a grain of salt.
Also I made an estimate that sprint speed and cost reduction is worth about 1/3 of general speed.Health: 1000/1206 = 0.83
Stam: 1000/1096 = 0.91
Heal: (2125*2)/219.3 = 4.85 !! This looks overvalued, it doesn’t seem like it should be worth this much.
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Sprint Speed and Cost Reduction: 10/(8.75) *1/3 = 0.38
Total: 8.97
Nord: 6.66 ** ([edit] or 4.91 + 3.11*x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming frost damage. 5.3 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Health: 1000/1206 = 0.83
Stam: 1500/1096 = 1.37
Ult: 0.5/0.52 = 0.97
Armor: 2600/1487 = 1.75
Frost Resist: 4620/2646.6 = 1.75
Frost Resist Alternative: 4620/1487 * x = 3.11 x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming frost damage
Total: 6.66 (or 4.91 + 3.11*x)
Argonian: 6.27 ** ([edit] or 4.53 + 1.55*x + 1.55*y, where x and y are the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison and disease damage, respectively. 4.9 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Tri Stat (total): 3000/1699 = 1.77
Tri Restore (total ever 2 sec): = (3*3125/45*2)/328.95 = 1.27
Poison Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Poison Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * x = 1.55x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison damage
Disease Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Disease Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * y = 1.55y, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming disease damage
Healing: 6/4 = 1.5
Total: 6.27 (or 4.53 + 1.55*x + 1.55*y)
Dark Elf: 7.23 ** ([edit] or 5.49 + 3.11*x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming fire damage. 5.87 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Stam: 1910/1096 = 1.74
Mag: 1910/1096 = 1.74
Fire Resist: 4620/2646.6 = 1.74
Fire Resist Alternative: 4620/1487 * x = 3.11 x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming fire damage
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Total: 7.23 (or 5.49 + 3.11*x)
Khajiit: 5.02 * (+1?)
(*) because I have omitted the sneak radius reduction as I don’t have a proper basis for comparison. I guess I could look at sets like Darloc Brae that give a 2m reduction plus a cost reduction, which would indicate that Khajiit’s 3m reduction might be worth about 1?Tri-Stat (total): 2745/1699 = 1.62
Tri- Regen (total): 270/193.5 = 1.40
Crit Damage and Healing: 12/5.96 = 2.01
Sneak radius reduction: 1?
Total: 5.02 (+1?)
Wood Elf: 6.78 * (+1?) ** ([edit] or 5.04 (+1?) + 1.55*x + 1.55*y, where x and y are the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison and disease damage, respectively. 5.42 (+1?) if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)
(*) Same issue as Khajiit but this time with detection. Again, could estimate it about 1?Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam Regen: 258/129 = 2
Pen: 950/1487 = 0.64
Speed: 5/8.74 = 0.57
Poison Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Poison Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * x = 1.55x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison damage
Disease Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Disease Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * y = 1.55y, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming disease damage
Detection radius increase: 1?
Total: 6.78 (+1?) (or 5.04 (+1?) + 1.55*x + 1.55*y
High Elf: 5.82
(*) Have omitted damage reduction while casting, given no basis for comparison. Would add just a little, 0.5?Mag: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam or Mag Restore: (625/5*2)/219.3 = 1.13
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Damage Reduction while casting: 5/5.82 = 0.86
Total: 4.96 (+0.5?)
Imperial 5.80Health: 2000/1206 = 1.66
Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Tri Cost Reduction: 6/2.58 = 2.32
Total: 5.80
Possibly the biggest takeaway from all this is that at best, looking at the set bonus equivalence for the races is only part of the story, as it shows that some of the races we consider BiS actually have really low set bonus equivalent worth (ie: High Elf), and some of the races we consider weaker actually have quite high worth (ie: argonian). This is in part due to some bonuses in the set bonus equivalence being over-valued (see: elemental resitances) but also can be a problem if a race has passives that don’t synergize.
I myself have been probably been guilty of leaning on this sort of comparison a bit too much, (especially in some recent discussions regarding argonians). Its still useful, but not the whole picture.
Oh and I've probably made an omission or arithmetical error somewhere in all that, if you notice one let me know and I will update.
Awesome job compiling all this, I've wanted to do this for a while but never took the time to. One thing: bonuses to health in set bonuses, attribute points, glyphs, and food grant exactly 1.1x that of offensive stats (1206=1.1x 1096),and this can be used to find that Tristat glyphs and set bonuses provide exactly 1.5x the bonus to single offensive stats. This should help you in some of your calculations.1 -
DragonBourneIdentitySoul ShrivenI think a fair way to balance Redguards 8% weapon cost vs Imperials 6% all cost (don't forget this includes ult) which is equal to a 5pc bonus (acrobat) is to give Redguards 8% block and bash cost reduction too.1
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KurtAngle2✭✭✭✭DragonBourneIdentity wrote: »I think a fair way to balance Redguards 8% weapon cost vs Imperials 6% all cost (don't forget this includes ult) which is equal to a 5pc bonus (acrobat) is to give Redguards 8% block and bash cost reduction too.
Or just make it -8% stamina cost abilities so that it also applies to Sprint/Block/Bash/Roll Dodge1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »There has been a lot of discussion this patch about racial balance following the changes to some races. Among this there has often been comparisons made of various race’s individual passives worth using the general set bonus values. However, these have often been incomplete or comparing a single passive. So I thought I would post this to try to give an overall picture of each races racial set bonus value for the updated passives.
The purpose of this isn’t to show if races are stronger or weaker, as there is definitely still some subjectivity in the set bonus values and their relative worth, but merely provide a complete basis for comparison when discussing or comparing the racial passives using set bonus values, as well as pointing out some of the weaknesses of this approach.
Establishing Equivalent Set Bonus Values – either because they exist as set bonuses, or from conversion from 5 piece bonuses, glyphs, jewelry traits, mundus stones or minor buffs(note, these don’t always line up, so where there was a discrepancy I used them in this order). In the case of resource restore I have applied a factor of 1.7 (assuming an average of +70% regen bonuses, which hopefully is about right given +40% from major buff, and then a couple of either the minor buff, armor passive and/or class passives). This gives the following valuesDirect from Sets:
Health: 1206
Mag/Stam: 1096
Tri-Stat (total) : 1699 (*note there is a slight approximation here as tri stats from sets/glyphs are slightly weight towards health, but tri stats from races are even. But the error should be small)
Regen: 129
Damage: 129 of both
Pen: 1487
Armor: 1487
Healing Done: 4%
Using 5 piece set bonuses as reference (5 piece bonuses are worth 2.32 a set bonus)
Cost Reduction: 10/2.32=4.31 (Using Seducer as reference)
Tri Cost Reduction: 6/2.32=2.58 (Using Alteration Mastery as reference)
Snare Reduction: 50/2.32 = 21.55 (Using Ranger’s Gait)
Ult Gen: 6/5 /2.32 = 0.52 ult/s (from werewolf hide 6 ult every 1.5 sec)
Damage Reduction while casting: 15/2.32*0.9 = 5.82 (from Light of Cyrodiil, but apply a factor of 0.9 as this isn't the full effect of that sets five piece)
Using Jewelry glyphs as reference (glyphs are worth 1.31-1.35 a set bonus, using 1.33)
Tri-Regen (total): 129*1.5=193.5 (Prismatic recovery indicate tri regen totals 1.5x single recovery)
Resist Element** : 3520/1.33 = 2646.6
Using Jewellery Traits (jewelry traits are worth 0.8 of a set bonus)
Speed: 7/0.8 = 8.75 (using swift as reference)
Using Mundus (mundus is worth 1.85 of a set bonus)
Crit Damage: 11/1.85 = 5.96 (Using Shadow)
From minor buffs (in the last update ZOS has indicated that minor buffs are worth 2 set lines)
Using the conversion for regen to restore using a factor of 1.7 (assuming +70% regen bonuses are average)
Restore (per 2 sec) : 129*1.7 = 219.3
Tri Restore (total per 2 sec): 193.5*1.7 = 328.95
Note there are still some racial passives that it isn’t easy to establish a set value for as they don’t exist as bonuses from any of the above sources, which includes weapon cost reduction, damage reduction while casting, sprint speed and cost reduction, sneak radius reduction and detection radius increase. Generally in the case of these passives I am calculating the set worth without it or making an estimate of a suggested value.
Additionally, in the case of stamina resources restore , it should be noted that there is a slight use case advantage of this over regen, in that it will still work while blocking (or in the case of magicka restore when using magicka blocking). This potentially gives a slight advantage that is note shown in these numbers to races that have such resource restore (Argonian, High Elf, Redguard).
**Also, I think that this process is overvaluing elemental resistances – the equivalent set worth for an element resist is less than double the armor value, but only applies to 1/8 of the damage types (which seems a bit weak). I am still using this as I have no other basis for comparison, but it should be noted that any race with these (indicated by ** below) probably has a higher set worth value than it would if these resists were worth less.
[EDIT Following some discussion I have added an alternate method of including the elemental resistances, simply by getting calculating it based on what proportion of incoming damage is that damage type. I'll leave it up to you to decide how much incoming damage is of that type.]
On to the races:
Breton: 5.31 *
(*) because Breton’s spell resistance is variable, and there is also no basis for comparison for just spell resistance. It could be argued that spell resistance standard set line is double that of armour, and this is what was used in conjunction with the assumption of 10% uptime of the extra resistance. If its more Breton would have higher worth.Mag: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Mag Regen: 130/129 = 1.01
Spell Resist: (2310 + 0.1*2310)/(1487*2) = 0.85
Mag Cost Red: 7/4.31 = 1.62
Total: 6.01
Redguard: 5.28 *
(*) I made an estimate here that weapon cost reductions standard set bonus would be double generic cost reduction, based on the assumption that weapon abilities make up half the abilities used. This is obviously a very general assumption, so if a lesser proportion weapon abilities is used, redguard gets proportionally weaker value wise.
This value also includes snare reduction, which really could have been ignored given some of the other non-conbat “flavor” passives that were ignored for other races. If so, Redguard is even worse set value than the number above.Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam Restore: (1005/5*2)/219.3 = 1.83
Weapon Cost Red: 8/(4.31*2) = 0.93
Snare Reduction: 15/21.55 = 0.70
Total: 5.28
Orc: 8.97 * (4.12 without the heal passive) [edit: there has been some discussion on finding an good basis for comparison for the orc heal. Using the standard set regen bonus of 129 and scaling for recovery buffs (like is done for every other restore value) results in the 8.97. If the beekeeper 5 piece is used instead, this becomes 5.73, but it should be noted that this is a deviation from the standard set bonuses]
(*) Personally I think the heal is being way over valued here and is artificially inflating this value, as it makes up over half the value for the race. The heal is significantly higher than say, High Elf or Redguard restore, but the heal is probably less useful. Unfortunately I had no basis to factor this in, so just take the above value with a grain of salt.
Also I made an estimate that sprint speed and cost reduction is worth about 1/3 of general speed.Health: 1000/1206 = 0.83
Stam: 1000/1096 = 0.91
Heal: (2125*2)/219.3 = 4.85 !! This looks overvalued, it doesn’t seem like it should be worth this much.
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Sprint Speed and Cost Reduction: 10/(8.75) *1/3 = 0.38
Total: 8.97
Nord: 6.66 ** ([edit] or 4.91 + 3.11*x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming frost damage. 5.3 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Health: 1000/1206 = 0.83
Stam: 1500/1096 = 1.37
Ult: 0.5/0.52 = 0.97
Armor: 2600/1487 = 1.75
Frost Resist: 4620/2646.6 = 1.75
Frost Resist Alternative: 4620/1487 * x = 3.11 x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming frost damage
Total: 6.66 (or 4.91 + 3.11*x)
Argonian: 6.27 ** ([edit] or 4.53 + 1.55*x + 1.55*y, where x and y are the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison and disease damage, respectively. 4.9 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Tri Stat (total): 3000/1699 = 1.77
Tri Restore (total ever 2 sec): = (3*3125/45*2)/328.95 = 1.27
Poison Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Poison Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * x = 1.55x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison damage
Disease Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Disease Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * y = 1.55y, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming disease damage
Healing: 6/4 = 1.5
Total: 6.27 (or 4.53 + 1.55*x + 1.55*y)
Dark Elf: 7.23 ** ([edit] or 5.49 + 3.11*x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming fire damage. 5.87 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Stam: 1910/1096 = 1.74
Mag: 1910/1096 = 1.74
Fire Resist: 4620/2646.6 = 1.74
Fire Resist Alternative: 4620/1487 * x = 3.11 x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming fire damage
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Total: 7.23 (or 5.49 + 3.11*x)
Khajiit: 5.02 * (+1?)
(*) because I have omitted the sneak radius reduction as I don’t have a proper basis for comparison. I guess I could look at sets like Darloc Brae that give a 2m reduction plus a cost reduction, which would indicate that Khajiit’s 3m reduction might be worth about 1?Tri-Stat (total): 2745/1699 = 1.62
Tri- Regen (total): 270/193.5 = 1.40
Crit Damage and Healing: 12/5.96 = 2.01
Sneak radius reduction: 1?
Total: 5.02 (+1?)
Wood Elf: 6.78 * (+1?) ** ([edit] or 5.04 (+1?) + 1.55*x + 1.55*y, where x and y are the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison and disease damage, respectively. 5.42 (+1?) if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)
(*) Same issue as Khajiit but this time with detection. Again, could estimate it about 1?Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam Regen: 258/129 = 2
Pen: 950/1487 = 0.64
Speed: 5/8.74 = 0.57
Poison Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Poison Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * x = 1.55x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison damage
Disease Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Disease Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * y = 1.55y, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming disease damage
Detection radius increase: 1?
Total: 6.78 (+1?) (or 5.04 (+1?) + 1.55*x + 1.55*y
High Elf: 5.82
(*) Have omitted damage reduction while casting, given no basis for comparison. Would add just a little, 0.5?Mag: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam or Mag Restore: (625/5*2)/219.3 = 1.13
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Damage Reduction while casting: 5/5.82 = 0.86
Total: 4.96 (+0.5?)
Imperial 5.80Health: 2000/1206 = 1.66
Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Tri Cost Reduction: 6/2.58 = 2.32
Total: 5.80
Possibly the biggest takeaway from all this is that at best, looking at the set bonus equivalence for the races is only part of the story, as it shows that some of the races we consider BiS actually have really low set bonus equivalent worth (ie: High Elf), and some of the races we consider weaker actually have quite high worth (ie: argonian). This is in part due to some bonuses in the set bonus equivalence being over-valued (see: elemental resitances) but also can be a problem if a race has passives that don’t synergize.
I myself have been probably been guilty of leaning on this sort of comparison a bit too much, (especially in some recent discussions regarding argonians). Its still useful, but not the whole picture.
Oh and I've probably made an omission or arithmetical error somewhere in all that, if you notice one let me know and I will update.
Awesome job compiling all this, I've wanted to do this for a while but never took the time to. One thing: bonuses to health in set bonuses, attribute points, glyphs, and food grant exactly 1.1x that of offensive stats (1206=1.1x 1096),and this can be used to find that Tristat glyphs and set bonuses provide exactly 1.5x the bonus to single offensive stats. This should help you in some of your calculations.
Yeah, the slight complexity here that I somewhat averaged out was the tri-stat glyphs and jewellery traits all follow this idea where health is 1.1x the others. But in the races its not like that, and the races have equal health stam and mag. So it doesn't compare exactly. I couldn't think of a good way to account for this slight discrepancy, so ended up just averaging it all out across the stats by using the total.
The other alternative Alternatives I considered but didn't use was to consider the racial tristats bonus the races get as made up of two components, one that follows the tri glyph ratio of 1.1/1/1 and then a second the is just a little bit of extra mag and stam to make up the difference. And then calculate worth from these components individually.
ie: Khajiit: 915/915/915
Consider this as one component that is 915/831.8/831.8 (to follow the tri glyph ratio).
Then another component that is the remaining 83.2 mag and stam.
The first part of 915/831.8/831.8 follows the exact ratio of a tri-glyph so can be directly compare via that to a single set tri stat bonus would be 603/548/548. So this component is worth 1.52
Then look at the second part which is just the extra bit of mag and stam as individual stats. These give 83.2/1096 = 0.076 each
So total would be 1.52+2*0.076 = 1.67 (which is slightly more than I get using the simple total method)
In the end I didn't do this method as the difference is small, thought it would add too much complexity and confusion and I couldn't be bothered and instead just used the simple method of totals with should be accurate to with ~5%1 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »There has been a lot of discussion this patch about racial balance following the changes to some races. Among this there has often been comparisons made of various race’s individual passives worth using the general set bonus values. However, these have often been incomplete or comparing a single passive. So I thought I would post this to try to give an overall picture of each races racial set bonus value for the updated passives.
The purpose of this isn’t to show if races are stronger or weaker, as there is definitely still some subjectivity in the set bonus values and their relative worth, but merely provide a complete basis for comparison when discussing or comparing the racial passives using set bonus values, as well as pointing out some of the weaknesses of this approach.
Establishing Equivalent Set Bonus Values – either because they exist as set bonuses, or from conversion from 5 piece bonuses, glyphs, jewelry traits, mundus stones or minor buffs(note, these don’t always line up, so where there was a discrepancy I used them in this order). In the case of resource restore I have applied a factor of 1.7 (assuming an average of +70% regen bonuses, which hopefully is about right given +40% from major buff, and then a couple of either the minor buff, armor passive and/or class passives). This gives the following valuesDirect from Sets:
Health: 1206
Mag/Stam: 1096
Tri-Stat (total) : 1699 (*note there is a slight approximation here as tri stats from sets/glyphs are slightly weight towards health, but tri stats from races are even. But the error should be small)
Regen: 129
Damage: 129 of both
Pen: 1487
Armor: 1487
Healing Done: 4%
Using 5 piece set bonuses as reference (5 piece bonuses are worth 2.32 a set bonus)
Cost Reduction: 10/2.32=4.31 (Using Seducer as reference)
Tri Cost Reduction: 6/2.32=2.58 (Using Alteration Mastery as reference)
Snare Reduction: 50/2.32 = 21.55 (Using Ranger’s Gait)
Ult Gen: 6/5 /2.32 = 0.52 ult/s (from werewolf hide 6 ult every 1.5 sec)
Damage Reduction while casting: 15/2.32*0.9 = 5.82 (from Light of Cyrodiil, but apply a factor of 0.9 as this isn't the full effect of that sets five piece)
Using Jewelry glyphs as reference (glyphs are worth 1.31-1.35 a set bonus, using 1.33)
Tri-Regen (total): 129*1.5=193.5 (Prismatic recovery indicate tri regen totals 1.5x single recovery)
Resist Element** : 3520/1.33 = 2646.6
Using Jewellery Traits (jewelry traits are worth 0.8 of a set bonus)
Speed: 7/0.8 = 8.75 (using swift as reference)
Using Mundus (mundus is worth 1.85 of a set bonus)
Crit Damage: 11/1.85 = 5.96 (Using Shadow)
From minor buffs (in the last update ZOS has indicated that minor buffs are worth 2 set lines)
Using the conversion for regen to restore using a factor of 1.7 (assuming +70% regen bonuses are average)
Restore (per 2 sec) : 129*1.7 = 219.3
Tri Restore (total per 2 sec): 193.5*1.7 = 328.95
Note there are still some racial passives that it isn’t easy to establish a set value for as they don’t exist as bonuses from any of the above sources, which includes weapon cost reduction, damage reduction while casting, sprint speed and cost reduction, sneak radius reduction and detection radius increase. Generally in the case of these passives I am calculating the set worth without it or making an estimate of a suggested value.
Additionally, in the case of stamina resources restore , it should be noted that there is a slight use case advantage of this over regen, in that it will still work while blocking (or in the case of magicka restore when using magicka blocking). This potentially gives a slight advantage that is note shown in these numbers to races that have such resource restore (Argonian, High Elf, Redguard).
**Also, I think that this process is overvaluing elemental resistances – the equivalent set worth for an element resist is less than double the armor value, but only applies to 1/8 of the damage types (which seems a bit weak). I am still using this as I have no other basis for comparison, but it should be noted that any race with these (indicated by ** below) probably has a higher set worth value than it would if these resists were worth less.
[EDIT Following some discussion I have added an alternate method of including the elemental resistances, simply by getting calculating it based on what proportion of incoming damage is that damage type. I'll leave it up to you to decide how much incoming damage is of that type.]
On to the races:
Breton: 5.31 *
(*) because Breton’s spell resistance is variable, and there is also no basis for comparison for just spell resistance. It could be argued that spell resistance standard set line is double that of armour, and this is what was used in conjunction with the assumption of 10% uptime of the extra resistance. If its more Breton would have higher worth.Mag: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Mag Regen: 130/129 = 1.01
Spell Resist: (2310 + 0.1*2310)/(1487*2) = 0.85
Mag Cost Red: 7/4.31 = 1.62
Total: 6.01
Redguard: 5.28 *
(*) I made an estimate here that weapon cost reductions standard set bonus would be double generic cost reduction, based on the assumption that weapon abilities make up half the abilities used. This is obviously a very general assumption, so if a lesser proportion weapon abilities is used, redguard gets proportionally weaker value wise.
This value also includes snare reduction, which really could have been ignored given some of the other non-conbat “flavor” passives that were ignored for other races. If so, Redguard is even worse set value than the number above.Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam Restore: (1005/5*2)/219.3 = 1.83
Weapon Cost Red: 8/(4.31*2) = 0.93
Snare Reduction: 15/21.55 = 0.70
Total: 5.28
Orc: 8.97 * (4.12 without the heal passive) [edit: there has been some discussion on finding an good basis for comparison for the orc heal. Using the standard set regen bonus of 129 and scaling for recovery buffs (like is done for every other restore value) results in the 8.97. If the beekeeper 5 piece is used instead, this becomes 5.73, but it should be noted that this is a deviation from the standard set bonuses]
(*) Personally I think the heal is being way over valued here and is artificially inflating this value, as it makes up over half the value for the race. The heal is significantly higher than say, High Elf or Redguard restore, but the heal is probably less useful. Unfortunately I had no basis to factor this in, so just take the above value with a grain of salt.
Also I made an estimate that sprint speed and cost reduction is worth about 1/3 of general speed.Health: 1000/1206 = 0.83
Stam: 1000/1096 = 0.91
Heal: (2125*2)/219.3 = 4.85 !! This looks overvalued, it doesn’t seem like it should be worth this much.
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Sprint Speed and Cost Reduction: 10/(8.75) *1/3 = 0.38
Total: 8.97
Nord: 6.66 ** ([edit] or 4.91 + 3.11*x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming frost damage. 5.3 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Health: 1000/1206 = 0.83
Stam: 1500/1096 = 1.37
Ult: 0.5/0.52 = 0.97
Armor: 2600/1487 = 1.75
Frost Resist: 4620/2646.6 = 1.75
Frost Resist Alternative: 4620/1487 * x = 3.11 x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming frost damage
Total: 6.66 (or 4.91 + 3.11*x)
Argonian: 6.27 ** ([edit] or 4.53 + 1.55*x + 1.55*y, where x and y are the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison and disease damage, respectively. 4.9 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Tri Stat (total): 3000/1699 = 1.77
Tri Restore (total ever 2 sec): = (3*3125/45*2)/328.95 = 1.27
Poison Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Poison Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * x = 1.55x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison damage
Disease Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Disease Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * y = 1.55y, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming disease damage
Healing: 6/4 = 1.5
Total: 6.27 (or 4.53 + 1.55*x + 1.55*y)
Dark Elf: 7.23 ** ([edit] or 5.49 + 3.11*x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming fire damage. 5.87 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Stam: 1910/1096 = 1.74
Mag: 1910/1096 = 1.74
Fire Resist: 4620/2646.6 = 1.74
Fire Resist Alternative: 4620/1487 * x = 3.11 x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming fire damage
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Total: 7.23 (or 5.49 + 3.11*x)
Khajiit: 5.02 * (+1?)
(*) because I have omitted the sneak radius reduction as I don’t have a proper basis for comparison. I guess I could look at sets like Darloc Brae that give a 2m reduction plus a cost reduction, which would indicate that Khajiit’s 3m reduction might be worth about 1?Tri-Stat (total): 2745/1699 = 1.62
Tri- Regen (total): 270/193.5 = 1.40
Crit Damage and Healing: 12/5.96 = 2.01
Sneak radius reduction: 1?
Total: 5.02 (+1?)
Wood Elf: 6.78 * (+1?) ** ([edit] or 5.04 (+1?) + 1.55*x + 1.55*y, where x and y are the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison and disease damage, respectively. 5.42 (+1?) if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)
(*) Same issue as Khajiit but this time with detection. Again, could estimate it about 1?Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam Regen: 258/129 = 2
Pen: 950/1487 = 0.64
Speed: 5/8.74 = 0.57
Poison Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Poison Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * x = 1.55x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison damage
Disease Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Disease Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * y = 1.55y, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming disease damage
Detection radius increase: 1?
Total: 6.78 (+1?) (or 5.04 (+1?) + 1.55*x + 1.55*y
High Elf: 5.82
(*) Have omitted damage reduction while casting, given no basis for comparison. Would add just a little, 0.5?Mag: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam or Mag Restore: (625/5*2)/219.3 = 1.13
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Damage Reduction while casting: 5/5.82 = 0.86
Total: 4.96 (+0.5?)
Imperial 5.80Health: 2000/1206 = 1.66
Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Tri Cost Reduction: 6/2.58 = 2.32
Total: 5.80
Possibly the biggest takeaway from all this is that at best, looking at the set bonus equivalence for the races is only part of the story, as it shows that some of the races we consider BiS actually have really low set bonus equivalent worth (ie: High Elf), and some of the races we consider weaker actually have quite high worth (ie: argonian). This is in part due to some bonuses in the set bonus equivalence being over-valued (see: elemental resitances) but also can be a problem if a race has passives that don’t synergize.
I myself have been probably been guilty of leaning on this sort of comparison a bit too much, (especially in some recent discussions regarding argonians). Its still useful, but not the whole picture.
Oh and I've probably made an omission or arithmetical error somewhere in all that, if you notice one let me know and I will update.
Awesome job compiling all this, I've wanted to do this for a while but never took the time to. One thing: bonuses to health in set bonuses, attribute points, glyphs, and food grant exactly 1.1x that of offensive stats (1206=1.1x 1096),and this can be used to find that Tristat glyphs and set bonuses provide exactly 1.5x the bonus to single offensive stats. This should help you in some of your calculations.
Yeah, the slight complexity here that I somewhat averaged out was the tri-stat glyphs and jewellery traits all follow this idea where health is 1.1x the others. But in the races its not like that, and the races have equal health stam and mag. So it doesn't compare exactly. I couldn't think of a good way to account for this slight discrepancy, so ended up just averaging it all out across the stats by using the total.
The other alternative Alternatives I considered but didn't use was to consider the racial tristats bonus the races get as made up of two components, one that follows the tri glyph ratio of 1.1/1/1 and then a second the is just a little bit of extra mag and stam to make up the difference. And then calculate worth from these components individually.
ie: Khajiit: 915/915/915
Consider this as one component that is 915/831.8/831.8 (to follow the tri glyph ratio).
Then another component that is the remaining 83.2 mag and stam.
The first part of 915/831.8/831.8 follows the exact ratio of a tri-glyph so can be directly compare via that to a single set tri stat bonus would be 603/548/548. So this component is worth 1.52
Then look at the second part which is just the extra bit of mag and stam as individual stats. These give 83.2/1096 = 0.076 each
So total would be 1.52+2*0.076 = 1.67 (which is slightly more than I get using the simple total method)
In the end I didn't do this method as the difference is small, thought it would add too much complexity and confusion and I couldn't be bothered and instead just used the simple method of totals with should be accurate to with ~5%
Tbh I don't think it's on you, I think ZOS was just lazy/forgetful in the racial passives, and didn't account for health being 1.1x the value of offensive stats in all other parts of the game when designing these racial skills. It's just another flaw in their system.Edited by twing1_ on February 3, 2021 3:36AM2 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »There has been a lot of discussion this patch about racial balance following the changes to some races. Among this there has often been comparisons made of various race’s individual passives worth using the general set bonus values. However, these have often been incomplete or comparing a single passive. So I thought I would post this to try to give an overall picture of each races racial set bonus value for the updated passives.
The purpose of this isn’t to show if races are stronger or weaker, as there is definitely still some subjectivity in the set bonus values and their relative worth, but merely provide a complete basis for comparison when discussing or comparing the racial passives using set bonus values, as well as pointing out some of the weaknesses of this approach.
Establishing Equivalent Set Bonus Values – either because they exist as set bonuses, or from conversion from 5 piece bonuses, glyphs, jewelry traits, mundus stones or minor buffs(note, these don’t always line up, so where there was a discrepancy I used them in this order). In the case of resource restore I have applied a factor of 1.7 (assuming an average of +70% regen bonuses, which hopefully is about right given +40% from major buff, and then a couple of either the minor buff, armor passive and/or class passives). This gives the following valuesDirect from Sets:
Health: 1206
Mag/Stam: 1096
Tri-Stat (total) : 1699 (*note there is a slight approximation here as tri stats from sets/glyphs are slightly weight towards health, but tri stats from races are even. But the error should be small)
Regen: 129
Damage: 129 of both
Pen: 1487
Armor: 1487
Healing Done: 4%
Using 5 piece set bonuses as reference (5 piece bonuses are worth 2.32 a set bonus)
Cost Reduction: 10/2.32=4.31 (Using Seducer as reference)
Tri Cost Reduction: 6/2.32=2.58 (Using Alteration Mastery as reference)
Snare Reduction: 50/2.32 = 21.55 (Using Ranger’s Gait)
Ult Gen: 6/5 /2.32 = 0.52 ult/s (from werewolf hide 6 ult every 1.5 sec)
Damage Reduction while casting: 15/2.32*0.9 = 5.82 (from Light of Cyrodiil, but apply a factor of 0.9 as this isn't the full effect of that sets five piece)
Using Jewelry glyphs as reference (glyphs are worth 1.31-1.35 a set bonus, using 1.33)
Tri-Regen (total): 129*1.5=193.5 (Prismatic recovery indicate tri regen totals 1.5x single recovery)
Resist Element** : 3520/1.33 = 2646.6
Using Jewellery Traits (jewelry traits are worth 0.8 of a set bonus)
Speed: 7/0.8 = 8.75 (using swift as reference)
Using Mundus (mundus is worth 1.85 of a set bonus)
Crit Damage: 11/1.85 = 5.96 (Using Shadow)
From minor buffs (in the last update ZOS has indicated that minor buffs are worth 2 set lines)
Using the conversion for regen to restore using a factor of 1.7 (assuming +70% regen bonuses are average)
Restore (per 2 sec) : 129*1.7 = 219.3
Tri Restore (total per 2 sec): 193.5*1.7 = 328.95
Note there are still some racial passives that it isn’t easy to establish a set value for as they don’t exist as bonuses from any of the above sources, which includes weapon cost reduction, damage reduction while casting, sprint speed and cost reduction, sneak radius reduction and detection radius increase. Generally in the case of these passives I am calculating the set worth without it or making an estimate of a suggested value.
Additionally, in the case of stamina resources restore , it should be noted that there is a slight use case advantage of this over regen, in that it will still work while blocking (or in the case of magicka restore when using magicka blocking). This potentially gives a slight advantage that is note shown in these numbers to races that have such resource restore (Argonian, High Elf, Redguard).
**Also, I think that this process is overvaluing elemental resistances – the equivalent set worth for an element resist is less than double the armor value, but only applies to 1/8 of the damage types (which seems a bit weak). I am still using this as I have no other basis for comparison, but it should be noted that any race with these (indicated by ** below) probably has a higher set worth value than it would if these resists were worth less.
[EDIT Following some discussion I have added an alternate method of including the elemental resistances, simply by getting calculating it based on what proportion of incoming damage is that damage type. I'll leave it up to you to decide how much incoming damage is of that type.]
On to the races:
Breton: 5.31 *
(*) because Breton’s spell resistance is variable, and there is also no basis for comparison for just spell resistance. It could be argued that spell resistance standard set line is double that of armour, and this is what was used in conjunction with the assumption of 10% uptime of the extra resistance. If its more Breton would have higher worth.Mag: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Mag Regen: 130/129 = 1.01
Spell Resist: (2310 + 0.1*2310)/(1487*2) = 0.85
Mag Cost Red: 7/4.31 = 1.62
Total: 6.01
Redguard: 5.28 *
(*) I made an estimate here that weapon cost reductions standard set bonus would be double generic cost reduction, based on the assumption that weapon abilities make up half the abilities used. This is obviously a very general assumption, so if a lesser proportion weapon abilities is used, redguard gets proportionally weaker value wise.
This value also includes snare reduction, which really could have been ignored given some of the other non-conbat “flavor” passives that were ignored for other races. If so, Redguard is even worse set value than the number above.Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam Restore: (1005/5*2)/219.3 = 1.83
Weapon Cost Red: 8/(4.31*2) = 0.93
Snare Reduction: 15/21.55 = 0.70
Total: 5.28
Orc: 8.97 * (4.12 without the heal passive) [edit: there has been some discussion on finding an good basis for comparison for the orc heal. Using the standard set regen bonus of 129 and scaling for recovery buffs (like is done for every other restore value) results in the 8.97. If the beekeeper 5 piece is used instead, this becomes 5.73, but it should be noted that this is a deviation from the standard set bonuses]
(*) Personally I think the heal is being way over valued here and is artificially inflating this value, as it makes up over half the value for the race. The heal is significantly higher than say, High Elf or Redguard restore, but the heal is probably less useful. Unfortunately I had no basis to factor this in, so just take the above value with a grain of salt.
Also I made an estimate that sprint speed and cost reduction is worth about 1/3 of general speed.Health: 1000/1206 = 0.83
Stam: 1000/1096 = 0.91
Heal: (2125*2)/219.3 = 4.85 !! This looks overvalued, it doesn’t seem like it should be worth this much.
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Sprint Speed and Cost Reduction: 10/(8.75) *1/3 = 0.38
Total: 8.97
Nord: 6.66 ** ([edit] or 4.91 + 3.11*x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming frost damage. 5.3 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Health: 1000/1206 = 0.83
Stam: 1500/1096 = 1.37
Ult: 0.5/0.52 = 0.97
Armor: 2600/1487 = 1.75
Frost Resist: 4620/2646.6 = 1.75
Frost Resist Alternative: 4620/1487 * x = 3.11 x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming frost damage
Total: 6.66 (or 4.91 + 3.11*x)
Argonian: 6.27 ** ([edit] or 4.53 + 1.55*x + 1.55*y, where x and y are the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison and disease damage, respectively. 4.9 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Tri Stat (total): 3000/1699 = 1.77
Tri Restore (total ever 2 sec): = (3*3125/45*2)/328.95 = 1.27
Poison Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Poison Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * x = 1.55x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison damage
Disease Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Disease Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * y = 1.55y, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming disease damage
Healing: 6/4 = 1.5
Total: 6.27 (or 4.53 + 1.55*x + 1.55*y)
Dark Elf: 7.23 ** ([edit] or 5.49 + 3.11*x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming fire damage. 5.87 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Stam: 1910/1096 = 1.74
Mag: 1910/1096 = 1.74
Fire Resist: 4620/2646.6 = 1.74
Fire Resist Alternative: 4620/1487 * x = 3.11 x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming fire damage
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Total: 7.23 (or 5.49 + 3.11*x)
Khajiit: 5.02 * (+1?)
(*) because I have omitted the sneak radius reduction as I don’t have a proper basis for comparison. I guess I could look at sets like Darloc Brae that give a 2m reduction plus a cost reduction, which would indicate that Khajiit’s 3m reduction might be worth about 1?Tri-Stat (total): 2745/1699 = 1.62
Tri- Regen (total): 270/193.5 = 1.40
Crit Damage and Healing: 12/5.96 = 2.01
Sneak radius reduction: 1?
Total: 5.02 (+1?)
Wood Elf: 6.78 * (+1?) ** ([edit] or 5.04 (+1?) + 1.55*x + 1.55*y, where x and y are the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison and disease damage, respectively. 5.42 (+1?) if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)
(*) Same issue as Khajiit but this time with detection. Again, could estimate it about 1?Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam Regen: 258/129 = 2
Pen: 950/1487 = 0.64
Speed: 5/8.74 = 0.57
Poison Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Poison Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * x = 1.55x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison damage
Disease Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Disease Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * y = 1.55y, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming disease damage
Detection radius increase: 1?
Total: 6.78 (+1?) (or 5.04 (+1?) + 1.55*x + 1.55*y
High Elf: 5.82
(*) Have omitted damage reduction while casting, given no basis for comparison. Would add just a little, 0.5?Mag: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam or Mag Restore: (625/5*2)/219.3 = 1.13
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Damage Reduction while casting: 5/5.82 = 0.86
Total: 4.96 (+0.5?)
Imperial 5.80Health: 2000/1206 = 1.66
Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Tri Cost Reduction: 6/2.58 = 2.32
Total: 5.80
Possibly the biggest takeaway from all this is that at best, looking at the set bonus equivalence for the races is only part of the story, as it shows that some of the races we consider BiS actually have really low set bonus equivalent worth (ie: High Elf), and some of the races we consider weaker actually have quite high worth (ie: argonian). This is in part due to some bonuses in the set bonus equivalence being over-valued (see: elemental resitances) but also can be a problem if a race has passives that don’t synergize.
I myself have been probably been guilty of leaning on this sort of comparison a bit too much, (especially in some recent discussions regarding argonians). Its still useful, but not the whole picture.
Oh and I've probably made an omission or arithmetical error somewhere in all that, if you notice one let me know and I will update.
Awesome job compiling all this, I've wanted to do this for a while but never took the time to. One thing: bonuses to health in set bonuses, attribute points, glyphs, and food grant exactly 1.1x that of offensive stats (1206=1.1x 1096),and this can be used to find that Tristat glyphs and set bonuses provide exactly 1.5x the bonus to single offensive stats. This should help you in some of your calculations.
Yeah, the slight complexity here that I somewhat averaged out was the tri-stat glyphs and jewellery traits all follow this idea where health is 1.1x the others. But in the races its not like that, and the races have equal health stam and mag. So it doesn't compare exactly. I couldn't think of a good way to account for this slight discrepancy, so ended up just averaging it all out across the stats by using the total.
The other alternative Alternatives I considered but didn't use was to consider the racial tristats bonus the races get as made up of two components, one that follows the tri glyph ratio of 1.1/1/1 and then a second the is just a little bit of extra mag and stam to make up the difference. And then calculate worth from these components individually.
ie: Khajiit: 915/915/915
Consider this as one component that is 915/831.8/831.8 (to follow the tri glyph ratio).
Then another component that is the remaining 83.2 mag and stam.
The first part of 915/831.8/831.8 follows the exact ratio of a tri-glyph so can be directly compare via that to a single set tri stat bonus would be 603/548/548. So this component is worth 1.52
Then look at the second part which is just the extra bit of mag and stam as individual stats. These give 83.2/1096 = 0.076 each
So total would be 1.52+2*0.076 = 1.67 (which is slightly more than I get using the simple total method)
In the end I didn't do this method as the difference is small, thought it would add too much complexity and confusion and I couldn't be bothered and instead just used the simple method of totals with should be accurate to with ~5%
Tbh I don't think it's on you, I think ZOS was just lazy/forgetful in the racial passives, and didn't account for health being 1.1x the value of offensive stats in all other parts of the game when designing these racial skills. It's just another flaw in their system.
That is not a fair thing to say at all. The previous racial passives did account for that, and it seems to have been a deliberate choice on their end. For example, Imperial previously had 10% max stam and 12% max health.Edited by manny254 on February 3, 2021 6:19AM- Mojican1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »There has been a lot of discussion this patch about racial balance following the changes to some races. Among this there has often been comparisons made of various race’s individual passives worth using the general set bonus values. However, these have often been incomplete or comparing a single passive. So I thought I would post this to try to give an overall picture of each races racial set bonus value for the updated passives.
The purpose of this isn’t to show if races are stronger or weaker, as there is definitely still some subjectivity in the set bonus values and their relative worth, but merely provide a complete basis for comparison when discussing or comparing the racial passives using set bonus values, as well as pointing out some of the weaknesses of this approach.
Establishing Equivalent Set Bonus Values – either because they exist as set bonuses, or from conversion from 5 piece bonuses, glyphs, jewelry traits, mundus stones or minor buffs(note, these don’t always line up, so where there was a discrepancy I used them in this order). In the case of resource restore I have applied a factor of 1.7 (assuming an average of +70% regen bonuses, which hopefully is about right given +40% from major buff, and then a couple of either the minor buff, armor passive and/or class passives). This gives the following valuesDirect from Sets:
Health: 1206
Mag/Stam: 1096
Tri-Stat (total) : 1699 (*note there is a slight approximation here as tri stats from sets/glyphs are slightly weight towards health, but tri stats from races are even. But the error should be small)
Regen: 129
Damage: 129 of both
Pen: 1487
Armor: 1487
Healing Done: 4%
Using 5 piece set bonuses as reference (5 piece bonuses are worth 2.32 a set bonus)
Cost Reduction: 10/2.32=4.31 (Using Seducer as reference)
Tri Cost Reduction: 6/2.32=2.58 (Using Alteration Mastery as reference)
Snare Reduction: 50/2.32 = 21.55 (Using Ranger’s Gait)
Ult Gen: 6/5 /2.32 = 0.52 ult/s (from werewolf hide 6 ult every 1.5 sec)
Damage Reduction while casting: 15/2.32*0.9 = 5.82 (from Light of Cyrodiil, but apply a factor of 0.9 as this isn't the full effect of that sets five piece)
Using Jewelry glyphs as reference (glyphs are worth 1.31-1.35 a set bonus, using 1.33)
Tri-Regen (total): 129*1.5=193.5 (Prismatic recovery indicate tri regen totals 1.5x single recovery)
Resist Element** : 3520/1.33 = 2646.6
Using Jewellery Traits (jewelry traits are worth 0.8 of a set bonus)
Speed: 7/0.8 = 8.75 (using swift as reference)
Using Mundus (mundus is worth 1.85 of a set bonus)
Crit Damage: 11/1.85 = 5.96 (Using Shadow)
From minor buffs (in the last update ZOS has indicated that minor buffs are worth 2 set lines)
Using the conversion for regen to restore using a factor of 1.7 (assuming +70% regen bonuses are average)
Restore (per 2 sec) : 129*1.7 = 219.3
Tri Restore (total per 2 sec): 193.5*1.7 = 328.95
Note there are still some racial passives that it isn’t easy to establish a set value for as they don’t exist as bonuses from any of the above sources, which includes weapon cost reduction, damage reduction while casting, sprint speed and cost reduction, sneak radius reduction and detection radius increase. Generally in the case of these passives I am calculating the set worth without it or making an estimate of a suggested value.
Additionally, in the case of stamina resources restore , it should be noted that there is a slight use case advantage of this over regen, in that it will still work while blocking (or in the case of magicka restore when using magicka blocking). This potentially gives a slight advantage that is note shown in these numbers to races that have such resource restore (Argonian, High Elf, Redguard).
**Also, I think that this process is overvaluing elemental resistances – the equivalent set worth for an element resist is less than double the armor value, but only applies to 1/8 of the damage types (which seems a bit weak). I am still using this as I have no other basis for comparison, but it should be noted that any race with these (indicated by ** below) probably has a higher set worth value than it would if these resists were worth less.
[EDIT Following some discussion I have added an alternate method of including the elemental resistances, simply by getting calculating it based on what proportion of incoming damage is that damage type. I'll leave it up to you to decide how much incoming damage is of that type.]
On to the races:
Breton: 5.31 *
(*) because Breton’s spell resistance is variable, and there is also no basis for comparison for just spell resistance. It could be argued that spell resistance standard set line is double that of armour, and this is what was used in conjunction with the assumption of 10% uptime of the extra resistance. If its more Breton would have higher worth.Mag: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Mag Regen: 130/129 = 1.01
Spell Resist: (2310 + 0.1*2310)/(1487*2) = 0.85
Mag Cost Red: 7/4.31 = 1.62
Total: 6.01
Redguard: 5.28 *
(*) I made an estimate here that weapon cost reductions standard set bonus would be double generic cost reduction, based on the assumption that weapon abilities make up half the abilities used. This is obviously a very general assumption, so if a lesser proportion weapon abilities is used, redguard gets proportionally weaker value wise.
This value also includes snare reduction, which really could have been ignored given some of the other non-conbat “flavor” passives that were ignored for other races. If so, Redguard is even worse set value than the number above.Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam Restore: (1005/5*2)/219.3 = 1.83
Weapon Cost Red: 8/(4.31*2) = 0.93
Snare Reduction: 15/21.55 = 0.70
Total: 5.28
Orc: 8.97 * (4.12 without the heal passive) [edit: there has been some discussion on finding an good basis for comparison for the orc heal. Using the standard set regen bonus of 129 and scaling for recovery buffs (like is done for every other restore value) results in the 8.97. If the beekeeper 5 piece is used instead, this becomes 5.73, but it should be noted that this is a deviation from the standard set bonuses]
(*) Personally I think the heal is being way over valued here and is artificially inflating this value, as it makes up over half the value for the race. The heal is significantly higher than say, High Elf or Redguard restore, but the heal is probably less useful. Unfortunately I had no basis to factor this in, so just take the above value with a grain of salt.
Also I made an estimate that sprint speed and cost reduction is worth about 1/3 of general speed.Health: 1000/1206 = 0.83
Stam: 1000/1096 = 0.91
Heal: (2125*2)/219.3 = 4.85 !! This looks overvalued, it doesn’t seem like it should be worth this much.
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Sprint Speed and Cost Reduction: 10/(8.75) *1/3 = 0.38
Total: 8.97
Nord: 6.66 ** ([edit] or 4.91 + 3.11*x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming frost damage. 5.3 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Health: 1000/1206 = 0.83
Stam: 1500/1096 = 1.37
Ult: 0.5/0.52 = 0.97
Armor: 2600/1487 = 1.75
Frost Resist: 4620/2646.6 = 1.75
Frost Resist Alternative: 4620/1487 * x = 3.11 x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming frost damage
Total: 6.66 (or 4.91 + 3.11*x)
Argonian: 6.27 ** ([edit] or 4.53 + 1.55*x + 1.55*y, where x and y are the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison and disease damage, respectively. 4.9 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Tri Stat (total): 3000/1699 = 1.77
Tri Restore (total ever 2 sec): = (3*3125/45*2)/328.95 = 1.27
Poison Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Poison Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * x = 1.55x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison damage
Disease Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Disease Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * y = 1.55y, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming disease damage
Healing: 6/4 = 1.5
Total: 6.27 (or 4.53 + 1.55*x + 1.55*y)
Dark Elf: 7.23 ** ([edit] or 5.49 + 3.11*x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming fire damage. 5.87 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)Stam: 1910/1096 = 1.74
Mag: 1910/1096 = 1.74
Fire Resist: 4620/2646.6 = 1.74
Fire Resist Alternative: 4620/1487 * x = 3.11 x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming fire damage
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Total: 7.23 (or 5.49 + 3.11*x)
Khajiit: 5.02 * (+1?)
(*) because I have omitted the sneak radius reduction as I don’t have a proper basis for comparison. I guess I could look at sets like Darloc Brae that give a 2m reduction plus a cost reduction, which would indicate that Khajiit’s 3m reduction might be worth about 1?Tri-Stat (total): 2745/1699 = 1.62
Tri- Regen (total): 270/193.5 = 1.40
Crit Damage and Healing: 12/5.96 = 2.01
Sneak radius reduction: 1?
Total: 5.02 (+1?)
Wood Elf: 6.78 * (+1?) ** ([edit] or 5.04 (+1?) + 1.55*x + 1.55*y, where x and y are the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison and disease damage, respectively. 5.42 (+1?) if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)
(*) Same issue as Khajiit but this time with detection. Again, could estimate it about 1?Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam Regen: 258/129 = 2
Pen: 950/1487 = 0.64
Speed: 5/8.74 = 0.57
Poison Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Poison Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * x = 1.55x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison damage
Disease Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Disease Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * y = 1.55y, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming disease damage
Detection radius increase: 1?
Total: 6.78 (+1?) (or 5.04 (+1?) + 1.55*x + 1.55*y
High Elf: 5.82
(*) Have omitted damage reduction while casting, given no basis for comparison. Would add just a little, 0.5?Mag: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam or Mag Restore: (625/5*2)/219.3 = 1.13
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Damage Reduction while casting: 5/5.82 = 0.86
Total: 4.96 (+0.5?)
Imperial 5.80Health: 2000/1206 = 1.66
Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Tri Cost Reduction: 6/2.58 = 2.32
Total: 5.80
Possibly the biggest takeaway from all this is that at best, looking at the set bonus equivalence for the races is only part of the story, as it shows that some of the races we consider BiS actually have really low set bonus equivalent worth (ie: High Elf), and some of the races we consider weaker actually have quite high worth (ie: argonian). This is in part due to some bonuses in the set bonus equivalence being over-valued (see: elemental resitances) but also can be a problem if a race has passives that don’t synergize.
I myself have been probably been guilty of leaning on this sort of comparison a bit too much, (especially in some recent discussions regarding argonians). Its still useful, but not the whole picture.
Oh and I've probably made an omission or arithmetical error somewhere in all that, if you notice one let me know and I will update.
Awesome job compiling all this, I've wanted to do this for a while but never took the time to. One thing: bonuses to health in set bonuses, attribute points, glyphs, and food grant exactly 1.1x that of offensive stats (1206=1.1x 1096),and this can be used to find that Tristat glyphs and set bonuses provide exactly 1.5x the bonus to single offensive stats. This should help you in some of your calculations.
Yeah, the slight complexity here that I somewhat averaged out was the tri-stat glyphs and jewellery traits all follow this idea where health is 1.1x the others. But in the races its not like that, and the races have equal health stam and mag. So it doesn't compare exactly. I couldn't think of a good way to account for this slight discrepancy, so ended up just averaging it all out across the stats by using the total.
The other alternative Alternatives I considered but didn't use was to consider the racial tristats bonus the races get as made up of two components, one that follows the tri glyph ratio of 1.1/1/1 and then a second the is just a little bit of extra mag and stam to make up the difference. And then calculate worth from these components individually.
ie: Khajiit: 915/915/915
Consider this as one component that is 915/831.8/831.8 (to follow the tri glyph ratio).
Then another component that is the remaining 83.2 mag and stam.
The first part of 915/831.8/831.8 follows the exact ratio of a tri-glyph so can be directly compare via that to a single set tri stat bonus would be 603/548/548. So this component is worth 1.52
Then look at the second part which is just the extra bit of mag and stam as individual stats. These give 83.2/1096 = 0.076 each
So total would be 1.52+2*0.076 = 1.67 (which is slightly more than I get using the simple total method)
In the end I didn't do this method as the difference is small, thought it would add too much complexity and confusion and I couldn't be bothered and instead just used the simple method of totals with should be accurate to with ~5%
Tbh I don't think it's on you, I think ZOS was just lazy/forgetful in the racial passives, and didn't account for health being 1.1x the value of offensive stats in all other parts of the game when designing these racial skills. It's just another flaw in their system.
That is not a fair thing to say at all. The previous racial passives did account for that, and it seems to have been a deliberate choice on their end. For example, Imperial previously have 10% max stam and 12% max health.
Yeah I don't think that it was lazy or a flaw on ZOS's part with the stat values the assigned to the races. There's no actual reason the values need to individually align with the set bonus values rather than being "round" values like the are. They can make them whatever they want as long as the overall races combined passives are somewhat balanced between races.
It's just that because they don't it makes this sort of analysis a little more complex.1 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭I hope you don't mind, but I linked this thread as mathematical justification behind the proposed racial changes I make in this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/560656/balancing-racial-skills-definitively#latest
Let me know if you want me to remove it.1 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭About Orc healing. I don't know how you come up with those values, why you multiply it by 2?
Wouldn't it be better to compare this passive with sets like
Shalidor curse:
(5 items) While you are under 50% Health, dealing damage with a Light or Heavy Attack heals you for 2294 Health. This effect can occur once every 1 second.
Or Hist Sap:
(5 items) After being hit by a disabling effect, immobilization, or snare, you heal for 2000 Health every 1 second for 5 seconds. The effect can apply once every second, but cannot stack.
Take into consideration that those heals are ticking every second while orc passive has 4s cool down so it would be closer to something like this:
(2125/4)/2000 or (2125/4)/2294 which gives us 0,26 and 0,23 respectively.
It's hard to compare trigger conditions.
Even when we compare it to sets that are giving flat hp recovery (Eternal Vigor) (2125/2)/1011=1,05.
It's still no where close to 4.85. I think Orc healing passive is more like Hist Sap/Shalidor Curse 5pc bonus just a lot weaker.Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭I hope you don't mind, but I linked this thread as mathematical justification behind the proposed racial changes I make in this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/560656/balancing-racial-skills-definitively#latest
Let me know if you want me to remove it.
That's fine. As I said my purpose here was just to try to present the numbers as they are.About Orc healing. I don't know how you come up with those values, why you multiply it by 2?
Wouldn't it be better to compare this passive with sets like
Shalidor curse:
(5 items) While you are under 50% Health, dealing damage with a Light or Heavy Attack heals you for 2294 Health. This effect can occur once every 1 second.
Or Hist Sap:
(5 items) After being hit by a disabling effect, immobilization, or snare, you heal for 2000 Health every 1 second for 5 seconds. The effect can apply once every second, but cannot stack.
Take into consideration that those heals are ticking every second while orc passive has 4s cool down so it would be closer to something like this:
(2125/4)/2000 or (2125/4)/2294 which gives us 0,26 and 0,23 respectively.
It's hard to compare trigger conditions.
Even when we compare it to sets that are giving flat hp recovery (Eternal Vigor) (2125/2)/1011=1,05.
It's still no where close to 4.85. I think Orc healing passive is more like Hist Sap/Shalidor Curse 5pc bonus just a lot weaker.
The reason I shied away from those sort of effects is that they have a proc condition that leads to variable uptime, whereas in theory orc's heal can proc on cooldown in combat under normal circumstances. Thus I would have to try to make a judgement call on the expected uptime of the sets, which I was trying to avoid where possible.
Thus, initially I used the most standardised option of comparing it to the standard health regen line of 129, which was converted to a a restore value of 219.3 every two sec using a factor of 1.7 (the 1.7 is an assumption based on an average of a +70% buff to regen from buffs/passives. I know I said I tried to avoid assumptions on things like uptimes, but this one was unavoidable).
Then it was a matter of converting orcs heal to a value per 2 sec and comparing to this (that's where the *2 comes from - I divide the heal by the cooldown, but then multiply by 2 to change to a per 2 sec value to align with the above comparison value).
[edit: just noticed that in the OP spoiler tab for orc I had a typo as I had omitted the /4 in the text so it just said 2125*2 instead of 2125/4*2 which is probably what you were referring to (but the actual calculation for the end value was correct). This typo has been corrected]
Which gave the 4.84 result.
I agree that this seems way to high.
And I suppose the reason is that ZOS is very inconsistent with the value of health regen (in comparison to other stat lines), in general. There are many more exceptions to health regen equivalence than most values, such as beekeeper, eternal vigor, all the newer gold foods that seemingly give it "free".
Hence the alternate comparison using the Beekeeper 2 piece just to highlight how much subjectivity there is in this value.
Using Beekeeper and repeating the above changes the equivalence down to 1.6.
Also, note that in your examples, you are overlooking the fact that as a general rule a five piece is worth 2.32x a standard set line.
Applying that to you above examples would give
Shalidor's Curse (100% uptime): (2125/4)/(2000/2.32) = 0.62
Hist Sap (100% uptime): (2125/4)/(2294/2.32) = 0.46
Eternal Vigor: (2125/2)/(1011*1.7/2.32) = 1.43 **Note extra 1.7 factor here as Eternal Vigor is a regen effect so normalise its value from from regen to restore.
If we then consider some other uptimes of the first two (considering uptimes on eternal Vigor is a bit hard as it gives you something else in the other case) :
Shalidor's Curse (25% uptime): (2125/4)/(2000/2.32*0.25) = 2.47
Hist Sap (25% uptime): (2125/4)/(2294/2.32*0.25) = 1.85
Shalidor's Curse (50% uptime): (2125/4)/(2000/2.32*0.5) = 1.23
Hist Sap (50% uptime): (2125/4)/(2294/2.32*0.5) = 0.93
Shalidor's Curse (75% uptime): (2125/4)/(2000/2.32*0.5) = 0.82
Hist Sap (75% uptime): (2125/4)/(2294/2.32*0.5) = 0.62
All of the above seems to suggest it the heal should be somewhere in the range of ~0.5 - 2.5.
But as I said, this is all quite subjective so I didn't want to go this way. Although the alternate that I did include in the update (using Beekeeper) which gives 1.6 (leading to the total for orc of 5.73) does also generally align with the above, so that may be a good way of looking at it.
In the end, this is subjective so readers can make their own judgement regarding this. Hence the note I had against orc and the alternate value as an example.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 4, 2021 12:03AM1 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yup Shalidor and Hist Sap are conditional, but lets make it clear, Hist Sap has 75-100% uptime in PvP due to you're going to be constantly hit by snares, roots and definetly CC's on cool down. Orc racial passive is also conditional, you have to attack your opponent to make it work. If you're hiding, running away or kiting around you wont get anything from it like you would do from passive health regen.
About your calculations you're of course right
Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I was looking at racial changes recently and I realized something. Some races that previously had only weapon dmg bonus now also have equivalent spell dmg bonus too (Orcs for example).
But, this means that such races now have 2x of certain bonus, meaning they got 2x stronger passive (mathematically that is).
So for example - even tgough Orcs got 1K stamina less, they got 258 spell dmg - so overall (mathematically) - they are stronger.
One could argue that ZOS simply counts it as "Damage" bonus and counts as one effect but the reason I think it is not the case is that apparently Argonian passives somehow were too strong (went overbudget, at least mathematically) so + 1K stamina meant that they had to reduce something else (potion passive). I also don't think the reason for the Argonian sustain nerf is CP changes, as Breton (bis mag sustain race) got buffed with more mag recovery.
Idk... I think some changes should have also a "common" sense, not only "mathematical" one...
Otherwise it will kinda be imbalanced...Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on February 4, 2021 9:12AM1 -
Wuerstal✭✭✭So this is all fine and good. But only because they all kinda fit into the same places at ZOS matrix doesn't mean they are balanced. has noone considered that the matrix is just BS?
2-4pc bonuses aren't even balanced and still we are trying to use these as a measurement.. For PvE dps there is a clear statpower leader for 2-4pc bonuses (live) : crit > spell/wepon damage > max stat > regeneration
For healers: reg > spell > maxstat > crit > healing done.
For stam dps put pen somewhere above max stats.
So by ZOS matrix a set that only gives healing done is as good as a healer set like a set that gives reg or spelldamage on all bonuses. and that is factually false. Atleast for PvE.
As a tank I don't really care what bonuses the sets have.
Healers profit more of spell dmg than healing done.
Dps don't gain anything from regeneration as it is really easy to get.
So a passive that gives regeneration cannot be as good as one that gives dmg bonuses.
In pvp this might be somewbat different as sustain is a higher priority but my point still stands. Set bonus =/= set bonus.
HEALING DONE IS WOTHLESSEdited by Wuerstal on February 4, 2021 11:42AM3 -
Wuerstal✭✭✭According to this matrix stuff they could give a race tiny bonuses across all stats, like 1% cost reduction, 10regeneration, 50max stats, 20weapon damage, 1% healing done, etc. According to the matix they will eventually be balanced. And will still suck at everything.Edited by Wuerstal on February 4, 2021 11:59AM1
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Aznox✭✭✭✭✭@ExistingRug61 sorry if i missed it, but have you taken into account that everybody runs with something like 2x modifier to ressource regen ? (Pots alone is 1.4 ...)
If not you are overvaluing flat resource restore by a lot vs regen (be it mag/stam or even health)Aznox
PC EU
Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
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CP1500+ club2 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@ExistingRug61 sorry if i missed it, but have you taken into account that everybody runs with something like 2x modifier to ressource regen ? (Pots alone is 1.4 ...)
If not you are overvaluing flat resource restore by a lot vs regen (be it mag/stam or even health)
Indeed, the value of real recovery is being underestimated here. I always have around a 2x modifier on recoveries.
Also, I find the Altmer cast/channel passive is blown out of proportions. It's basically non existing and can as well be removed from the equation. Almost nothing in the game really has casttimes. It's nothing compared to even frost resistance, that is always active. As long as it's not changed to linger for a few seconds after a cast, I do not even want to hear about it.
It's the worst racial of all. Even worse than the Redguard's Slow "Reduction". (Please imagine Jim Sterling saying Tripple A whenever I say Slow Reduction)
I know what this thread is trying to state. It's about quantifying. I would like a bit more realism added to it and this Altmer passive is not very realistic, just like the Redguard Slow "Reduction".Edited by Dracane on February 4, 2021 12:31PMAuri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭I still can't get over how they ignored Argonians stats and lore in the rest of the entire series. It even says in the Morrowind description that male Argonians can make the finest Nightblades............. and every game says they make great thieves and assassins. Somehow they decided they should be tanks when they always had some of the lowest HP. They were meant to be Healer/Stam dps, good job on completely ignoring like nearly everything about Argonians over the entire series.1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭@ExistingRug61 sorry if i missed it, but have you taken into account that everybody runs with something like 2x modifier to ressource regen ? (Pots alone is 1.4 ...)
If not you are overvaluing flat resource restore by a lot vs regen (be it mag/stam or even health)
Indeed, the value of real recovery is being underestimated here. I always have around a 2x modifier on recoveries.
Also, I find the Altmer cast/channel passive is blown out of proportions. It's basically non existing and can as well be removed from the equation. Almost nothing in the game really has casttimes. It's nothing compared to even frost resistance, that is always active. As long as it's not changed to linger for a few seconds after a cast, I do not even want to hear about it. It's the worst racial of all. Even worse than the Redguard's Slow "Reduction". (Please imagine Jim Sterling saying Tripple A whenever I say Slow Reduction)
I know what this thread is trying to state. It's about quantifying. I would like a bit more realism added to it and this Altmer passive is not very realistic, just like the Redguard Slow "Reduction".
@Aznox
I used a factor of 1.7x (or +70%buffs), which was a judgement call on my part, unfortunately an unavoidable one.
While this is less than the potential maximum, which as you state can often be at or more than 2x, this was because it needed to be something that I could apply to all regens, not just your primary stat. And, generally speaking, it is unlikely that a build will have 2x on all three regens simultaneously, more likely it will be something like 1.9-2x on primary stat (depending on class), and then then maybe 1.5-1.6 on the others (this assumes tri-pots, which may not even be the case, in which case this would be even lower). Partially because the regen bonuses from armor are mutually exclusive, but also because builds are less likely to worry about getting the regen buffs for their off resources. So I took a ballpark sort of average of around 1.7x.
Especially given that outside of redguard, all the races that restore resources either don't get their primary stat (altmer is always off stat, orc is most likely not the primary stat given its dps focused) or get all three (argonian), meant that I though using the max multiplier was a little out of place. And I didn't want to have to try to justify a different multiplier for each race based on what I thought its application would be, so went for a sort of average fit.
If we were to do this sort of thing, it would probably mean that a higher multiplier is needed for redguard, which would lower redguards value. Argonian probably stays about the same as if we split the stats and applied one high multiplier and two lower it will probably come out similar. High Elf and maybe orc would have a lower multiplier and thus come out with slightly higher values.
But all of that is subjective. It certainly has a place in discussions on the races, I was trying (with at best limited success) to avoid inserting my own bias.
I would say a similar thing regarding the point made @dracane regarding that some passives are potentially worthless in some situations. This sort of consideration definitely has a place when comparing races, and the quantities given here are definitely not the whole picture.
There's also the fact that a race with scattered or unfocused bonuses (say a mixture of dps, healing and tanking passives) is always going to be worse off than one that is focused (say with most passives applicable to dps), even if they come out with similar values in this sort of analysis. There's little to no benefit from a race being say "4th best at everything" , as this results in that race never being the right choice.
The only point I would make in that area is that given it seems like ZOS does seem to try to keep to some sort of "mathematical balance" then if a race seems to be underperforming yet is mathematically at about the same, potentially we are more likely to get a successful change if we suggest changing something less useful to something more useful (while keeping the mathematical budget the same) than simply suggesting to increase something (thus unbalancing the "maths")
Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 4, 2021 10:49PM1