Maintenance for the week of September 15:
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• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 15, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
We will be performing maintenance for patch 11.2.0 on the PTS on Monday at 8:00AM EDT (12:00 UTC).
For information - All races set bonus equivalent worth in current patch
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JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Khajit passive works only on 2/3 when blocking while Argonian works for 100% even while blocking. And honestly, Argonian is usualy picked for that very reason, to be able to restore a lot of stats even while blocking. I think we should account for that.
True, but Argonian passive has quite a substantial kiss-curse effect as it requires a potion and has an actual gold cost. Khajiit has passive that works 100% of the time, while Argonian passive is a "proc" passive - it only works when you drink potion.
Also passive recovery can take advatage of major recovery buffs provided by potions (40%).
If one would min-max potion passive (21 second potion cooldown) this would translate to 380 tri-stat recovery.
(4000 ÷ 21 = 190 every second so 380)
However, using tri-stat recovery glyphs on a same setup would provide 402 tri-stat recovery
(134 + 134 + 134 = 402)
This comparison gets even worse if you would applay Argonian PTS changes - 297 tri-stat recovery.
(3125 ÷ 21 = 148 every second so 297).
Just to make something clear here: Your comparison is slightly flawed because it doesn't take into account the additonal return (the one that is baseline and not from the argonian race) from potions that you get extra if you use potion cooldown - that said, I'd probably say it is apt given their gold cost. Not to mention the fact that you'd be drinking potions more often than what would be efficient for major regen buff uptimes.
Also I forgot to mention, the recovery from tri stat glyphs is scalable on regen modifiers0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »
That resource restore goes for every race, that 7.5k mag or stam or 8k health is the same for all racesTommy_The_Gun wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Khajit passive works only on 2/3 when blocking while Argonian works for 100% even while blocking. And honestly, Argonian is usualy picked for that very reason, to be able to restore a lot of stats even while blocking. I think we should account for that.
True, but Argonian passive has quite a substantial kiss-curse effect as it requires a potion and has an actual gold cost. Khajiit has passive that works 100% of the time, while Argonian passive is a "proc" passive - it only works when you drink potion.
Also passive recovery can take advatage of major recovery buffs provided by potions (40%).
If one would min-max potion passive (21 second potion cooldown) this would translate to 380 tri-stat recovery.
(4000 ÷ 21 = 190 every second so 380)
However, using tri-stat recovery glyphs on a same setup would provide 402 tri-stat recovery
(134 + 134 + 134 = 402)
This comparison gets even worse if you would applay Argonian PTS changes - 297 tri-stat recovery.
(3125 ÷ 21 = 148 every second so 297).
Just to make something clear here: Your comparison is slightly flawed because it doesn't take into account the additonal return (the one that is baseline and not from the argonian race) from potions that you get extra if you use potion cooldown - that said, I'd probably say it is apt given their gold cost. Not to mention the fact that you'd be drinking potions more often than what would be efficient for major regen buff uptimes.
But the comparison made was using glyphs of potion cooldown vs not.
Wit the glyphs your getting that 7.5k mag or stam and 8k health much more frequently, every 21 seconds instead of 45. So your more than doubling the return of the potions base effect over time. Thats why it needs to be taken into account.
Also, the comparison is actually more a comparison of the potion cooldown glyph vs the tri recovery glyph, it just happens to use argonian to maximised the potion cooldown effect.
Gotcha0 -
Artanisul✭✭✭✭Thanks for the Maths!
I like how you compare what we have, not debate how useful that is, and give an unbiased comparison of the data. Thanks for the work you did!2 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So in conclusion, time to buff High Elf with some more utility effects. I like that conclusion.
Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭About Argonians:
As DD it looks not as good.
But for tank you regen this value IN BLOCK.
If you use this and ultimate - you can or can not get full resources from this.
Just values not baced on real play style can not be compared.
And yes some values are now strange calculated by ZOS, so it can not be just translated 1 to another.
+ We will have different values due to changes, so only really bad stats is easy to see.Edited by AyaDark on February 2, 2021 1:17PM0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭So in conclusion, time to buff High Elf with some more utility effects. I like that conclusion.
Haha I'll leave it to others to make conclusions on the races themselves.
(Actually I probably won't, and will make suggestions on races in other threads, but it wasn't the point of this post)
My only real conclusion here was that this data isn't necessarily indicative of the races performance and that the set bonus equivalence for some stats may be flawed, basically invalidating my work to a degree.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 2, 2021 1:23PM0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »So in conclusion, time to buff High Elf with some more utility effects. I like that conclusion.
Haha I'll leave it to others to make conclusions on the races themselves.
(Actually I probably won't, and will make suggestions on races in other threads, but it wasn't the point of this post)
My only real conclusion here was that this data isn't necessarily indicative of the races performance and that the set bonus equivalence for some stats may be flawed, basically invalidating my work to a degree.
Your work is above valid, as it shows that some people seem to be unaware how stat dense their race is.
For example Argonians, Wood Elves and Nord are constantly being complained about, even though they are amongst the most stat dense races already. Stat dense of course does not mean strongest, when you have a lot but are not great at 1 specific thing.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »So in conclusion, time to buff High Elf with some more utility effects. I like that conclusion.
Haha I'll leave it to others to make conclusions on the races themselves.
(Actually I probably won't, and will make suggestions on races in other threads, but it wasn't the point of this post)
My only real conclusion here was that this data isn't necessarily indicative of the races performance and that the set bonus equivalence for some stats may be flawed, basically invalidating my work to a degree.
Your work is above valid, as it shows that some people seem to be unaware how stat dense their race is.
For example Argonians, Wood Elves and Nord are constantly being complained about, even though they are amongst the most stat dense races already. Stat dense of course does not mean strongest, when you have a lot but are not great at 1 specific thing.
Yeah I've had that discussion a bit in some other threads.
However, I think partially this effect is that elemental resistances are overvalued if we base there equivalence from jewelry elem resist glyph values. Unfortunately, this is the only comparison point in the game so I had nothing else to use. But it doesn't seem right that its worth value when comparing to armour. ie: for the same "worth" get less than double the amount of individual element resist than if you just use straight armor. But that individual element only affects 1 of 8 damage types in the game.
I am tempted to add an alternate value where it uses the 8:1 ratio of worth between elem resist and armour, but this would mean I am going against a value of equivalence that is present in the game, whereas so far I had tried to limit my assumptions only when a direct comparison wasn't available.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 2, 2021 1:37PM0 -
Kuratius✭✭✭This is your list after removing situational /generally less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races. I think you should probably figure out a good way to rank the healing passive. With it, orc tops both charts.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 1:42PM1 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is your list after removing situational /generaller less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.
Did you stop accounting for Orc heal proc alltogether? I think out of all useless passives such as elemental resistances, Orc heal is the only one that actually does something that is not only situationaly usefulEdited by Olupajmibanan on February 2, 2021 1:42PM3 -
Kuratius✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »This is your list after removing situational /generaller less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.
Did you stop accounting for Orc heal proc alltogether? I think out of all useless passives such as elemental resistances, Orc heal is the only that actually does something that is not situationaly useful
Yeah, I did. If you include it, orc tops both charts.0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »This is your list after removing situational /generaller less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.
Did you stop accounting for Orc heal proc alltogether? I think out of all useless passives such as elemental resistances, Orc heal is the only that actually does something that is not situationaly useful
Yeah, I did. If you include it, orc tops both charts.
Yeah that heal bonus is wildly distorting, with its individual worth of like 4.8. I keep trying to think of a reason why its shouldn't follow the rules that apply to other resource restore effects, but can't really think of one.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 2, 2021 1:45PM0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »This is your list after removing situational /generaller less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.
Did you stop accounting for Orc heal proc alltogether? I think out of all useless passives such as elemental resistances, Orc heal is the only that actually does something that is not situationaly useful
Yeah, I did. If you include it, orc tops both charts.
People in pve are obsessed with the ring of pale order. So Orc having passive healing like this is actually quite impactful and strong. 530 health very second is very good in pve, especially for free.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos3 -
Kuratius✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »This is your list after removing situational /generaller less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.
Did you stop accounting for Orc heal proc alltogether? I think out of all useless passives such as elemental resistances, Orc heal is the only that actually does something that is not situationaly useful
Yeah, I did. If you include it, orc tops both charts.
Yeah that heal bonus is wildly distorting, with its individual worth of like 4.8. I keep trying to think of a reason why its shouldn't follow the rules that apply to other resource restore effects, but can't really think of one.
It probably needs to be relatively strong to have a tangible gameplay effect in PvE (and to not get completely destroyed in pvp). It was probably balanced with pvp debuffs in mind, so maybe try a penalty equal to the healing debuffs in pvp?0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »This is your list after removing situational /generaller less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.
Did you stop accounting for Orc heal proc alltogether? I think out of all useless passives such as elemental resistances, Orc heal is the only that actually does something that is not situationaly useful
Yeah, I did. If you include it, orc tops both charts.
Yeah that heal bonus is wildly distorting, with its individual worth of like 4.8. I keep trying to think of a reason why its shouldn't follow the rules that apply to other resource restore effects, but can't really think of one.
Maybe we could compare it to health recovery bonus. That's the nearest we can get I think.
Unify it to health restored per second and then directly compare it. The only problem is that modifiers for hp regen and orc heal differ. But we get at least a rough estimate.
I just suggest comparing it to 5pc Beekeeper bonus.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 2, 2021 1:52PM0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »This is your list after removing situational /generaller less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.
Did you stop accounting for Orc heal proc alltogether? I think out of all useless passives such as elemental resistances, Orc heal is the only that actually does something that is not situationaly useful
Yeah, I did. If you include it, orc tops both charts.
Yeah that heal bonus is wildly distorting, with its individual worth of like 4.8. I keep trying to think of a reason why its shouldn't follow the rules that apply to other resource restore effects, but can't really think of one.
Maybe we could compare it to health recovery bonus. That's the nearest we can get I think.
Unify it to health restored per second and then directly compare it. The only problem is that modifiers for hp regen and orc heal differ. But we get at least a rough estimate.
That's what I used, with a 1.7 factor as an average estimate to account for the buffs that can apply to regen.
ie: 1 health regen is equivalent to 1.7 health restore.
So then using a standard health recovery line of 129, this would equate to 219.3 heal /2 sec. So Orc was 2125/4*2 = 1062/5 heal/2 sec which in set bonus worth gives 1062/219.3 = 4.84.
I realise now that this ignores the potential for healing done/received buffs, which can effect the orc heal (do they also affect argonian's racial health restore from potions??). But that would actually make the orc heal be worth even more set bonus wise.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 2, 2021 1:58PM0 -
Kuratius✭✭✭from.
Health regen doesn't take a penalty in pvp, but healing does. I think that's where most of the difference comes from. So a 50-60 % penalty for the orc racial would be appropriate.Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »This is your list after removing situational /generaller less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.
Did you stop accounting for Orc heal proc alltogether? I think out of all useless passives such as elemental resistances, Orc heal is the only that actually does something that is not situationaly useful
Yeah, I did. If you include it, orc tops both charts.
Yeah that heal bonus is wildly distorting, with its individual worth of like 4.8. I keep trying to think of a reason why its shouldn't follow the rules that apply to other resource restore effects, but can't really think of one.
Maybe we could compare it to health recovery bonus. That's the nearest we can get I think.
Unify it to health restored per second and then directly compare it. The only problem is that modifiers for hp regen and orc heal differ. But we get at least a rough estimate.
I just suggest comparing it to 5pc Beekeeper bonus.
Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 1:55PM0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is your list after removing situational /generally less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races. I think you should probably figure out a good way to rank the healing passive. With it, orc tops both charts.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.
Poison and disease damage is fairly common in game espeically pvp. Same with flame damage1 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »This is your list after removing situational /generaller less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.
Did you stop accounting for Orc heal proc alltogether? I think out of all useless passives such as elemental resistances, Orc heal is the only that actually does something that is not situationaly useful
Yeah, I did. If you include it, orc tops both charts.
Yeah that heal bonus is wildly distorting, with its individual worth of like 4.8. I keep trying to think of a reason why its shouldn't follow the rules that apply to other resource restore effects, but can't really think of one.
Maybe we could compare it to health recovery bonus. That's the nearest we can get I think.
Unify it to health restored per second and then directly compare it. The only problem is that modifiers for hp regen and orc heal differ. But we get at least a rough estimate.
That's what I used, with a 1.7 factor as an average estimate to account for the buffs that can apply to regen.
ie: 1 health regen is equivalent to 1.7 health restore.
Orc is 531 per second before modifiers.
Beekeeper is 450 before modifiers
Orc is something like 637 after CPs and before Major and Minor mending (Mendings are usually class specific bonuses).
Beekeeper is 720 after Major and Minor Fortitude not counting for class specific bonuses.
So I'd say that orc heal is somwhere around 88% of a 5pc bonus giving it an effective value of +-2.
And accounting for the battle spirit penalty I'd say 1,5 would be the right value which would put orc somewhere to the value of Imperial which actually seems right.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 2, 2021 2:00PM0 -
phantasmalD✭✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »Using Jewelry glyphs as reference (glyphs are worth 1.31-1.35 a set bonus, using 1.33)
Tri-Regen (total): 129*1.5=193.5 (Prismatic recovery indicate tri regen totals 1.5x single recovery)
Resist Element** : 3520/1.33 = 2646.6
I was thinking of doing the same, taking glyphs as a basis for the value of partial resistances, but unfortunately I don't think you can really do that. Because let's look at the glyphs for increased resources:
Truly Superb Glyph of Magicka - +868 magicka.
The set bonus for magicka is 1096, so the glyph/set bonus ratio in this case is 868/1096 = 0.792. Very far from the 1.33 conversion standard. The glyphs just quite frankly haven't been updated to reflect the set bonus system and still use pre-standardization values.
(Most of the glyphs are quite esoteric tbh and there's no set bonus to compare, like Glyph of Bracing or Glyphof Potion Speed, so it's understandable that they haven't really touched them)
We also have these:
Truly Superb Glyph of Decrease Physical/Spell Harm: +927 Phys/Spell resist
If you took this as reference for the Breton's spell resistance (and applied the assumed 1.33 conversion) then suddenly it would worth ( 2310+0.1*2310)/(927/1.33) = 3.65 set bonus value.
So really, glyphs are a mess valuewise and calculating a set standard value for partial resistances is a headache.
Imo instead of basing the partial resistances on glyphs, use the same logic you used for the Breton's resistance: divide with a multiple of 1437.
So the value for argonian resistance is (2x2310)/(1437*8) = 0.4018
Goodness knows what value ZoS associates with these racials. Would be great if we knew why they consider these perfectly balanced.Edited by phantasmalD on February 2, 2021 1:59PM0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »This is your list after removing situational /generaller less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.
Did you stop accounting for Orc heal proc alltogether? I think out of all useless passives such as elemental resistances, Orc heal is the only that actually does something that is not situationaly useful
Yeah, I did. If you include it, orc tops both charts.
Yeah that heal bonus is wildly distorting, with its individual worth of like 4.8. I keep trying to think of a reason why its shouldn't follow the rules that apply to other resource restore effects, but can't really think of one.
Maybe we could compare it to health recovery bonus. That's the nearest we can get I think.
Unify it to health restored per second and then directly compare it. The only problem is that modifiers for hp regen and orc heal differ. But we get at least a rough estimate.
That's what I used, with a 1.7 factor as an average estimate to account for the buffs that can apply to regen.
ie: 1 health regen is equivalent to 1.7 health restore.
Orc is 531 per second before modifiers.
Beekeeper is 450 before modifiers
Orc is something like 637 after CPs and before Major and Minor mending (Mendings are usually class specific bonuses).
Beekeeper is 720 after Major and Minor Fortitude not counting for class specific bonuses.
So I'd say that orc heal is somwhere around 88% of a 5pc bonus giving it an effective value of +-2.
And accounting for the battle spirit penalty I'd say 1,5 would be the right value which would put orc somewhere to the value of Imperial which actually seems right.
Hmmm that is interesting. Beekeeper has a totally different standard for health regen in its 5 piece than the standard set bonus, which would imply the 5 piece is 129 * 2.32 = 299. AN yet its 900.
Using that as a standard would reduce the value of the orc heal by a factor of three, down to ~1.6, but it seems odd to use a health regen standard from one set as opposed to the standard set line.
For consistency this would also imply the health regen or restore that Khajiit and Argonian get is also worth even less, so I am a bit hesitant to update them all.0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »This is your list after removing situational /generaller less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.
Did you stop accounting for Orc heal proc alltogether? I think out of all useless passives such as elemental resistances, Orc heal is the only that actually does something that is not situationaly useful
Yeah, I did. If you include it, orc tops both charts.
Yeah that heal bonus is wildly distorting, with its individual worth of like 4.8. I keep trying to think of a reason why its shouldn't follow the rules that apply to other resource restore effects, but can't really think of one.
Maybe we could compare it to health recovery bonus. That's the nearest we can get I think.
Unify it to health restored per second and then directly compare it. The only problem is that modifiers for hp regen and orc heal differ. But we get at least a rough estimate.
That's what I used, with a 1.7 factor as an average estimate to account for the buffs that can apply to regen.
ie: 1 health regen is equivalent to 1.7 health restore.
Orc is 531 per second before modifiers.
Beekeeper is 450 before modifiers
Orc is something like 637 after CPs and before Major and Minor mending (Mendings are usually class specific bonuses).
Beekeeper is 720 after Major and Minor Fortitude not counting for class specific bonuses.
So I'd say that orc heal is somwhere around 88% of a 5pc bonus giving it an effective value of +-2.
And accounting for the battle spirit penalty I'd say 1,5 would be the right value which would put orc somewhere to the value of Imperial which actually seems right.
Taking into account Orc heal the list is now looking as following:
6,36 Dunmer
5,82 Altmer
5,8 Imperial
5,62 Orc
5,31 Breton
5,28 Redguard
5,04 Bosmer
5,02 Khajit
4,91 Nord
4,53 Argonian1 -
Kuratius✭✭✭The most fair way to rank partial resistances is probably to assume 50:50 split betweem magic and physical damage, with each subtype of damage being equally common. So e.g. fire/ice/lightning would take a 1/3*1/2 = 1/6 penalty multiplier, so an around 80 % penalty.Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 2:07PM0
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AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭What are you writing ???
It looks for me like :
We have 2 apples. We add 3 oranges to it and all this becomes 5 potato.
5 potato 🥔 cost like 10 kg sand in some country, but it is not a food.
And Fish 🐟 is a food !
Wish can be 2 kg ! So it is like 5 fishes !
So 2 apples + 3 oranges = 5 fishes !!!
It just do not work like this, can you pls make calculation in real conditions, where stats you use can be usefull !!!
If race is bad tank, bad heal, bad DD, even if it has a lot of useless stats it is useless.
So no one will play 10 item sets bonuses race if it will look like:
5 k fire res, 5k snow res, 5 k desis res, 5 k and etc !
You calculate it like 1.75 bonus ?
But 8 stats like that are just as 5 k resists, that is 4 - 2 set bonuses right ?
So you can calculate it differently, but lets talk about REAL conditions where it is possible to use.
Not some theory that can not be used.
You take race not becouse of theory.
You take it if:
You just like it.
It is better in thing you need.
If you like it and it is bad in ALL, it is desapoitment !
If you need some thing good, you will not even take it.Edited by AyaDark on February 2, 2021 2:09PM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The most fair way to rank partial resistances is probably to assume 50:50 split betweem magic and physical damage, with each subtype of damage being equally common.
I can partially agree with that. Elemental resistances bypass armor cap making them actually useful. However this applies only to dungeons and PvP. There is no trial with other damage types than magic, physical, poison, shock and fire. So a ranking between elemental passives is needed.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 2, 2021 2:08PM0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭The most fair way to rank partial resistances is probably to assume 50:50 split betweem magic and physical damage, with each subtype of damage being equally common.
Yeah I think I will add an extra value that uses this method.
Like @phantasmalD pointed out, the jewelry glyph values for resistance are a bit of a mess, but that was all I had as a comparison basis.
Now that we have bleed as its own subtype it simply means there are four of each of physical and magical so its a simple 1/8 of each.0 -
Kuratius✭✭✭What are you writing ???
It looks for me like :
We have 2 apples. We add 3 oranges to it and all this becomes 5 potato.
5 potato 🥔 cost like 10 kg in some country, but it is not a food.
And Fish 🐟 is a food !
Wish can be 2 kg ! So it is like 5 fishes !
So 2 apples + 3 oranges = 5 fishes !!!
It just do not work like this, can you pls make calculation in real conditions, where stats you use can be usefull !!!
If race is bad tank, bad heal, bad DD, even if it has a lot of useless stats it is useless.
So no one will play 10 item sets bonuses race if it will look like:
5 k fire res, 5k snow res, 5 k desis res, 5 k and etc !
You calculate it like 1.75 bonus ?
But 8 stats like that are just as 5 k resists, that is 4 - 2 set bonuses right ?
So you can calculate it differently, but lets talk about REAL conditions where it is possible to use.
Not some theory that can not be used.
You take race not becouse of theory.
You take it if:
You just like it.
It is better in thing you need.
If you like it and it is bad in ALL, it is desapoitment !
If you need some thing good, you will not even take it.
What we're doing isn't rigorous in the same way a mathematical proof is. Something like that would be impossible. But we're trying to find good arguments that would pass a plausibility check to do something sort of like a fermi estimate, assuming you're familiar with that way of thinking.Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 2:15PM1 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »The most fair way to rank partial resistances is probably to assume 50:50 split betweem magic and physical damage, with each subtype of damage being equally common.
Yeah I think I will add an extra value that uses this method.
Like @phantasmalD pointed out, the jewelry glyph values for resistance are a bit of a mess, but that was all I had as a comparison basis.
Now that we have bleed as its own subtype it simply means there are four of each of physical and magical so its a simple 1/8 of each.
How does the list sorts out after accounting for elemental resistances and giving orc heal a 1,5?0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »This is your list after removing situational /generaller less valued bonuses (like resistances that rarely come up):
Situational bonuses removed or ameliorated
Original List
The only one that looks out of place to me is orc, the rest of the list in the ameliorated image seems to agree with how I would rank races.
Ameliorated in this case means removing resistances against damage types that are comparatively rare, like poison, frost, or disease damage and halving the value of fire resist.
Did you stop accounting for Orc heal proc alltogether? I think out of all useless passives such as elemental resistances, Orc heal is the only that actually does something that is not situationaly useful
Yeah, I did. If you include it, orc tops both charts.
Yeah that heal bonus is wildly distorting, with its individual worth of like 4.8. I keep trying to think of a reason why its shouldn't follow the rules that apply to other resource restore effects, but can't really think of one.
Maybe we could compare it to health recovery bonus. That's the nearest we can get I think.
Unify it to health restored per second and then directly compare it. The only problem is that modifiers for hp regen and orc heal differ. But we get at least a rough estimate.
That's what I used, with a 1.7 factor as an average estimate to account for the buffs that can apply to regen.
ie: 1 health regen is equivalent to 1.7 health restore.
Orc is 531 per second before modifiers.
Beekeeper is 450 before modifiers
Orc is something like 637 after CPs and before Major and Minor mending (Mendings are usually class specific bonuses).
Beekeeper is 720 after Major and Minor Fortitude not counting for class specific bonuses.
So I'd say that orc heal is somwhere around 88% of a 5pc bonus giving it an effective value of +-2.
And accounting for the battle spirit penalty I'd say 1,5 would be the right value which would put orc somewhere to the value of Imperial which actually seems right.
Taking into account Orc heal the list is now looking as following:
6,36 Dunmer
5,82 Altmer
5,8 Imperial
5,62 Orc
5,31 Breton
5,28 Redguard
5,04 Bosmer
5,02 Khajit
4,91 Nord
4,53 Argonian
Honestly I’d bump up argonian and bosmer as poison and disease damage in pvp is very prevalent if you look at the most commonly used skills, outstandingly so if you include proc sets and double damage poisons0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »The most fair way to rank partial resistances is probably to assume 50:50 split betweem magic and physical damage, with each subtype of damage being equally common.
I can partially agree with that. Elemental resistances bypass armor cap making them actually useful. However this applies only to dungeons and PvP. There is no trial with other damage types than magic, physical, poison, shock and fire. So a ranking between elemental passives is needed.
About bypass armor cap, can you pls show some examples, i may be do not understand you right ?0