For information - All races set bonus equivalent worth in current patch
ExistingRug61
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There has been a lot of discussion this patch about racial balance following the changes to some races. Among this there has often been comparisons made of various race’s individual passives worth using the general set bonus values. However, these have often been incomplete or comparing a single passive. So I thought I would post this to try to give an overall picture of each races racial set bonus value for the updated passives.
The purpose of this isn’t to show if races are stronger or weaker, as there is definitely still some subjectivity in the set bonus values and their relative worth, but merely provide a complete basis for comparison when discussing or comparing the racial passives using set bonus values, as well as pointing out some of the weaknesses of this approach.
Establishing Equivalent Set Bonus Values – either because they exist as set bonuses, or from conversion from 5 piece bonuses, glyphs, jewelry traits, mundus stones or minor buffs(note, these don’t always line up, so where there was a discrepancy I used them in this order). In the case of resource restore I have applied a factor of 1.7 (assuming an average of +70% regen bonuses, which hopefully is about right given +40% from major buff, and then a couple of either the minor buff, armor passive and/or class passives). This gives the following values
Note there are still some racial passives that it isn’t easy to establish a set value for as they don’t exist as bonuses from any of the above sources, which includes weapon cost reduction, damage reduction while casting, sprint speed and cost reduction, sneak radius reduction and detection radius increase. Generally in the case of these passives I am calculating the set worth without it or making an estimate of a suggested value.
Additionally, in the case of stamina resources restore , it should be noted that there is a slight use case advantage of this over regen, in that it will still work while blocking (or in the case of magicka restore when using magicka blocking). This potentially gives a slight advantage that is note shown in these numbers to races that have such resource restore (Argonian, High Elf, Redguard).
**Also, I think that this process is overvaluing elemental resistances – the equivalent set worth for an element resist is less than double the armor value, but only applies to 1/8 of the damage types (which seems a bit weak). I am still using this as I have no other basis for comparison, but it should be noted that any race with these (indicated by ** below) probably has a higher set worth value than it would if these resists were worth less.
[EDIT Following some discussion I have added an alternate method of including the elemental resistances, simply by getting calculating it based on what proportion of incoming damage is that damage type. I'll leave it up to you to decide how much incoming damage is of that type.]
On to the races:
Breton: 5.31 *
(*) because Breton’s spell resistance is variable, and there is also no basis for comparison for just spell resistance. It could be argued that spell resistance standard set line is double that of armour, and this is what was used in conjunction with the assumption of 10% uptime of the extra resistance. If its more Breton would have higher worth.
Redguard: 5.28 *
(*) I made an estimate here that weapon cost reductions standard set bonus would be double generic cost reduction, based on the assumption that weapon abilities make up half the abilities used. This is obviously a very general assumption, so if a lesser proportion weapon abilities is used, redguard gets proportionally weaker value wise.
This value also includes snare reduction, which really could have been ignored given some of the other non-conbat “flavor” passives that were ignored for other races. If so, Redguard is even worse set value than the number above.
Orc: 8.97 * (4.12 without the heal passive, or 5.73 with the heal if using beekeeper 5 piece as reference for the heal instead of standard health regen line)
[edit: there has been some discussion on finding an good basis for comparison for the orc heal. Using the standard set regen bonus of 129 and scaling for recovery buffs (like is done for every other restore value) results in the 8.97. If the beekeeper 5 piece is used instead, this becomes 5.73, but it should be noted that this is a deviation from the standard set bonuses]
(*) Personally I think the heal is being way over valued here and is artificially inflating this value, as it makes up over half the value for the race. The heal is significantly higher than say, High Elf or Redguard restore, but the heal is probably less useful. Unfortunately I had no basis to factor this in, so just take the above value with a grain of salt.
Also I made an estimate that sprint speed and cost reduction is worth about 1/3 of general speed.
Nord: 6.66 ** ([edit] or 4.91 + 3.11*x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming frost damage. 5.3 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)
Argonian: 6.27 ** ([edit] or 4.53 + 1.55*x + 1.55*y, where x and y are the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison and disease damage, respectively. 4.9 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)
Dark Elf: 7.23 ** ([edit] or 5.49 + 3.11*x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming fire damage. 5.87 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)
Khajiit: 5.02 * (+1?)
(*) because I have omitted the sneak radius reduction as I don’t have a proper basis for comparison. I guess I could look at sets like Darloc Brae that give a 2m reduction plus a cost reduction, which would indicate that Khajiit’s 3m reduction might be worth about 1?
Wood Elf: 6.78 * (+1?) ** ([edit] or 5.04 (+1?) + 1.55*x + 1.55*y, where x and y are the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison and disease damage, respectively. 5.42 (+1?) if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)
(*) Same issue as Khajiit but this time with detection. Again, could estimate it about 1?
High Elf: 5.82
Imperial 5.80
[Edit: The following comments were made in the context of the first values listed, which was done first, hence the references to High Elf being low and Argonian high, which was the case then. As stated, this was likely due to the overvaluation of the elemental resistances, which the second updated method tried to do in a better way, which as a result changed the values.
This does however highlight how easily the values given can be varied simply by looking at the bonuses using a different reference for their "worth", which does indicate that this sort of simple numerical approach doesn't tell the whole story for the races].
Possibly the biggest takeaway from all this is that at best, looking at the set bonus equivalence for the races is only part of the story, as it shows that some of the races we consider BiS actually have really low set bonus equivalent worth (ie: High Elf), and some of the races we consider weaker actually have quite high worth (ie: argonian). This is in part due to some bonuses in the set bonus equivalence being over-valued (see: elemental resistances) but also can be a problem if a race has passives that don’t synergize.
I myself have been probably been guilty of leaning on this sort of comparison a bit too much, (especially in some recent discussions regarding argonians). Its still useful, but not the whole picture.
Oh and I've probably made an omission or arithmetical error somewhere in all that, if you notice one let me know and I will update.
Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 21, 2021 5:01AM The purpose of this isn’t to show if races are stronger or weaker, as there is definitely still some subjectivity in the set bonus values and their relative worth, but merely provide a complete basis for comparison when discussing or comparing the racial passives using set bonus values, as well as pointing out some of the weaknesses of this approach.
Establishing Equivalent Set Bonus Values – either because they exist as set bonuses, or from conversion from 5 piece bonuses, glyphs, jewelry traits, mundus stones or minor buffs(note, these don’t always line up, so where there was a discrepancy I used them in this order). In the case of resource restore I have applied a factor of 1.7 (assuming an average of +70% regen bonuses, which hopefully is about right given +40% from major buff, and then a couple of either the minor buff, armor passive and/or class passives). This gives the following values
Direct from Sets:
Health: 1206
Mag/Stam: 1096
Tri-Stat (total) : 1699 (*note there is a slight approximation here as tri stats from sets/glyphs are slightly weight towards health, but tri stats from races are even. But the error should be small)
Regen: 129
Damage: 129 of both
Pen: 1487
Armor: 1487
Healing Done: 4%
Using 5 piece set bonuses as reference (5 piece bonuses are worth 2.32 a set bonus)
Cost Reduction: 10/2.32=4.31 (Using Seducer as reference)
Tri Cost Reduction: 6/2.32=2.58 (Using Alteration Mastery as reference)
Snare Reduction: 50/2.32 = 21.55 (Using Ranger’s Gait)
Ult Gen: 6/5 /2.32 = 0.52 ult/s (from werewolf hide 6 ult every 1.5 sec)
Damage Reduction while casting: 15/2.32*0.9 = 5.82 (from Light of Cyrodiil, but apply a factor of 0.9 as this isn't the full effect of that sets five piece)
Using Jewelry glyphs as reference (glyphs are worth 1.31-1.35 a set bonus, using 1.33)
Tri-Regen (total): 129*1.5=193.5 (Prismatic recovery indicate tri regen totals 1.5x single recovery)
Resist Element** : 3520/1.33 = 2646.6
Using Jewellery Traits (jewelry traits are worth 0.8 of a set bonus)
Speed: 7/0.8 = 8.75 (using swift as reference)
Using Mundus (mundus is worth 1.85 of a set bonus)
Crit Damage: 11/1.85 = 5.96 (Using Shadow)
From minor buffs (in the last update ZOS has indicated that minor buffs are worth 2 set lines)
Using the conversion for regen to restore using a factor of 1.7 (assuming +70% regen bonuses are average)
Restore (per 2 sec) : 129*1.7 = 219.3
Tri Restore (total per 2 sec): 193.5*1.7 = 328.95
Health: 1206
Mag/Stam: 1096
Tri-Stat (total) : 1699 (*note there is a slight approximation here as tri stats from sets/glyphs are slightly weight towards health, but tri stats from races are even. But the error should be small)
Regen: 129
Damage: 129 of both
Pen: 1487
Armor: 1487
Healing Done: 4%
Using 5 piece set bonuses as reference (5 piece bonuses are worth 2.32 a set bonus)
Cost Reduction: 10/2.32=4.31 (Using Seducer as reference)
Tri Cost Reduction: 6/2.32=2.58 (Using Alteration Mastery as reference)
Snare Reduction: 50/2.32 = 21.55 (Using Ranger’s Gait)
Ult Gen: 6/5 /2.32 = 0.52 ult/s (from werewolf hide 6 ult every 1.5 sec)
Damage Reduction while casting: 15/2.32*0.9 = 5.82 (from Light of Cyrodiil, but apply a factor of 0.9 as this isn't the full effect of that sets five piece)
Using Jewelry glyphs as reference (glyphs are worth 1.31-1.35 a set bonus, using 1.33)
Tri-Regen (total): 129*1.5=193.5 (Prismatic recovery indicate tri regen totals 1.5x single recovery)
Resist Element** : 3520/1.33 = 2646.6
Using Jewellery Traits (jewelry traits are worth 0.8 of a set bonus)
Speed: 7/0.8 = 8.75 (using swift as reference)
Using Mundus (mundus is worth 1.85 of a set bonus)
Crit Damage: 11/1.85 = 5.96 (Using Shadow)
From minor buffs (in the last update ZOS has indicated that minor buffs are worth 2 set lines)
Using the conversion for regen to restore using a factor of 1.7 (assuming +70% regen bonuses are average)
Restore (per 2 sec) : 129*1.7 = 219.3
Tri Restore (total per 2 sec): 193.5*1.7 = 328.95
Note there are still some racial passives that it isn’t easy to establish a set value for as they don’t exist as bonuses from any of the above sources, which includes weapon cost reduction, damage reduction while casting, sprint speed and cost reduction, sneak radius reduction and detection radius increase. Generally in the case of these passives I am calculating the set worth without it or making an estimate of a suggested value.
Additionally, in the case of stamina resources restore , it should be noted that there is a slight use case advantage of this over regen, in that it will still work while blocking (or in the case of magicka restore when using magicka blocking). This potentially gives a slight advantage that is note shown in these numbers to races that have such resource restore (Argonian, High Elf, Redguard).
**Also, I think that this process is overvaluing elemental resistances – the equivalent set worth for an element resist is less than double the armor value, but only applies to 1/8 of the damage types (which seems a bit weak). I am still using this as I have no other basis for comparison, but it should be noted that any race with these (indicated by ** below) probably has a higher set worth value than it would if these resists were worth less.
[EDIT Following some discussion I have added an alternate method of including the elemental resistances, simply by getting calculating it based on what proportion of incoming damage is that damage type. I'll leave it up to you to decide how much incoming damage is of that type.]
On to the races:
Breton: 5.31 *
(*) because Breton’s spell resistance is variable, and there is also no basis for comparison for just spell resistance. It could be argued that spell resistance standard set line is double that of armour, and this is what was used in conjunction with the assumption of 10% uptime of the extra resistance. If its more Breton would have higher worth.
Mag: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Mag Regen: 130/129 = 1.01
Spell Resist: (2310 + 0.1*2310)/(1487*2) = 0.85
Mag Cost Red: 7/4.31 = 1.62
Total: 5.31
Mag Regen: 130/129 = 1.01
Spell Resist: (2310 + 0.1*2310)/(1487*2) = 0.85
Mag Cost Red: 7/4.31 = 1.62
Total: 5.31
Redguard: 5.28 *
(*) I made an estimate here that weapon cost reductions standard set bonus would be double generic cost reduction, based on the assumption that weapon abilities make up half the abilities used. This is obviously a very general assumption, so if a lesser proportion weapon abilities is used, redguard gets proportionally weaker value wise.
This value also includes snare reduction, which really could have been ignored given some of the other non-conbat “flavor” passives that were ignored for other races. If so, Redguard is even worse set value than the number above.
Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam Restore: (1005/5*2)/219.3 = 1.83
Weapon Cost Red: 8/(4.31*2) = 0.93
Snare Reduction: 15/21.55 = 0.70
Total: 5.28
Stam Restore: (1005/5*2)/219.3 = 1.83
Weapon Cost Red: 8/(4.31*2) = 0.93
Snare Reduction: 15/21.55 = 0.70
Total: 5.28
Orc: 8.97 * (4.12 without the heal passive, or 5.73 with the heal if using beekeeper 5 piece as reference for the heal instead of standard health regen line)
[edit: there has been some discussion on finding an good basis for comparison for the orc heal. Using the standard set regen bonus of 129 and scaling for recovery buffs (like is done for every other restore value) results in the 8.97. If the beekeeper 5 piece is used instead, this becomes 5.73, but it should be noted that this is a deviation from the standard set bonuses]
(*) Personally I think the heal is being way over valued here and is artificially inflating this value, as it makes up over half the value for the race. The heal is significantly higher than say, High Elf or Redguard restore, but the heal is probably less useful. Unfortunately I had no basis to factor this in, so just take the above value with a grain of salt.
Also I made an estimate that sprint speed and cost reduction is worth about 1/3 of general speed.
Health: 1000/1206 = 0.83
Stam: 1000/1096 = 0.91
Heal: (2125/4*2)/219.3 = 4.85 !! This looks overvalued, it doesn’t seem like it should be worth this much.
Heal alternative: (2125/4*2)/(900*1.7/2.32) = 1.61 (using beekeeper 5 piece as reference)
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Sprint Speed and Cost Reduction: 10/(8.75) *1/3 = 0.38
Total: 8.97
Stam: 1000/1096 = 0.91
Heal: (2125/4*2)/219.3 = 4.85 !! This looks overvalued, it doesn’t seem like it should be worth this much.
Heal alternative: (2125/4*2)/(900*1.7/2.32) = 1.61 (using beekeeper 5 piece as reference)
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Sprint Speed and Cost Reduction: 10/(8.75) *1/3 = 0.38
Total: 8.97
Nord: 6.66 ** ([edit] or 4.91 + 3.11*x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming frost damage. 5.3 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)
Health: 1000/1206 = 0.83
Stam: 1500/1096 = 1.37
Ult: 0.5/0.52 = 0.97
Armor: 2600/1487 = 1.75
Frost Resist: 4620/2646.6 = 1.75
Frost Resist Alternative: 4620/1487 * x = 3.11 x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming frost damage
Total: 6.66 (or 4.91 + 3.11*x)
Stam: 1500/1096 = 1.37
Ult: 0.5/0.52 = 0.97
Armor: 2600/1487 = 1.75
Frost Resist: 4620/2646.6 = 1.75
Frost Resist Alternative: 4620/1487 * x = 3.11 x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming frost damage
Total: 6.66 (or 4.91 + 3.11*x)
Argonian: 6.27 ** ([edit] or 4.53 + 1.55*x + 1.55*y, where x and y are the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison and disease damage, respectively. 4.9 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)
Tri Stat (total): 3000/1699 = 1.77
Tri Restore (total ever 2 sec): = (3*3125/45*2)/328.95 = 1.27
Poison Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Poison Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * x = 1.55x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison damage
Disease Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Disease Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * y = 1.55y, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming disease damage
Healing: 6/4 = 1.5
Total: 6.27 (or 4.53 + 1.55*x + 1.55*y)
Tri Restore (total ever 2 sec): = (3*3125/45*2)/328.95 = 1.27
Poison Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Poison Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * x = 1.55x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison damage
Disease Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Disease Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * y = 1.55y, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming disease damage
Healing: 6/4 = 1.5
Total: 6.27 (or 4.53 + 1.55*x + 1.55*y)
Dark Elf: 7.23 ** ([edit] or 5.49 + 3.11*x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming fire damage. 5.87 if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)
Stam: 1910/1096 = 1.74
Mag: 1910/1096 = 1.74
Fire Resist: 4620/2646.6 = 1.74
Fire Resist Alternative: 4620/1487 * x = 3.11 x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming fire damage
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Total: 7.23 (or 5.49 + 3.11*x)
Mag: 1910/1096 = 1.74
Fire Resist: 4620/2646.6 = 1.74
Fire Resist Alternative: 4620/1487 * x = 3.11 x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming fire damage
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Total: 7.23 (or 5.49 + 3.11*x)
Khajiit: 5.02 * (+1?)
(*) because I have omitted the sneak radius reduction as I don’t have a proper basis for comparison. I guess I could look at sets like Darloc Brae that give a 2m reduction plus a cost reduction, which would indicate that Khajiit’s 3m reduction might be worth about 1?
Tri-Stat (total): 2745/1699 = 1.62
Tri- Regen (total): 270/193.5 = 1.40
Crit Damage and Healing: 12/5.96 = 2.01
Sneak radius reduction: 1?
Total: 5.02 (+1?)
Tri- Regen (total): 270/193.5 = 1.40
Crit Damage and Healing: 12/5.96 = 2.01
Sneak radius reduction: 1?
Total: 5.02 (+1?)
Wood Elf: 6.78 * (+1?) ** ([edit] or 5.04 (+1?) + 1.55*x + 1.55*y, where x and y are the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison and disease damage, respectively. 5.42 (+1?) if incoming damage is an even distribution between the types)
(*) Same issue as Khajiit but this time with detection. Again, could estimate it about 1?
Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam Regen: 258/129 = 2
Pen: 950/1487 = 0.64
Speed: 5/8.74 = 0.57
Poison Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Poison Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * x = 1.55x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison damage
Disease Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Disease Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * y = 1.55y, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming disease damage
Detection radius increase: 1?
Total: 6.78 (+1?) (or 5.04 (+1?) + 1.55*x + 1.55*y
Stam Regen: 258/129 = 2
Pen: 950/1487 = 0.64
Speed: 5/8.74 = 0.57
Poison Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Poison Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * x = 1.55x, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming poison damage
Disease Resist: 2310/2646.6 = 0.87
Disease Resist Alternative: 2310/1487 * y = 1.55y, where x is the proportion (max 1) of incoming disease damage
Detection radius increase: 1?
Total: 6.78 (+1?) (or 5.04 (+1?) + 1.55*x + 1.55*y
High Elf: 5.82
Mag: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Stam or Mag Restore: (625/5*2)/219.3 = 1.13
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Damage Reduction while casting: 5/5.82 = 0.86
Total: 5.82
Stam or Mag Restore: (625/5*2)/219.3 = 1.13
Damage: 258/129 = 2
Damage Reduction while casting: 5/5.82 = 0.86
Total: 5.82
Imperial 5.80
Health: 2000/1206 = 1.66
Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Tri Cost Reduction: 6/2.58 = 2.32
Total: 5.80
Stam: 2000/1096 = 1.82
Tri Cost Reduction: 6/2.58 = 2.32
Total: 5.80
[Edit: The following comments were made in the context of the first values listed, which was done first, hence the references to High Elf being low and Argonian high, which was the case then. As stated, this was likely due to the overvaluation of the elemental resistances, which the second updated method tried to do in a better way, which as a result changed the values.
This does however highlight how easily the values given can be varied simply by looking at the bonuses using a different reference for their "worth", which does indicate that this sort of simple numerical approach doesn't tell the whole story for the races].
Possibly the biggest takeaway from all this is that at best, looking at the set bonus equivalence for the races is only part of the story, as it shows that some of the races we consider BiS actually have really low set bonus equivalent worth (ie: High Elf), and some of the races we consider weaker actually have quite high worth (ie: argonian). This is in part due to some bonuses in the set bonus equivalence being over-valued (see: elemental resistances) but also can be a problem if a race has passives that don’t synergize.
I myself have been probably been guilty of leaning on this sort of comparison a bit too much, (especially in some recent discussions regarding argonians). Its still useful, but not the whole picture.
Oh and I've probably made an omission or arithmetical error somewhere in all that, if you notice one let me know and I will update.
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Kuratius✭✭✭You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.0
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Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nord ultigen is 0,416666 of Werewolf hide 5pc bonus. If a 5pc bonus is worth 2,32 of normal set bonus, than Nord ultigen should be 0,96666 instead of 1,5.5 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Nord ultigen is 0,416666 of Werewolf hide 5pc bonus. If a 5pc bonus is worth 2,32 of normal set bonus, than Nord ultigen should be 0,96666 instead of 1,5.
Ah thanks for that I had forgotten that set. I had used the new ZOS system of equating it via minor herosim which apparently is worth 2 sets as a minor buff, but that's probably a better comparison. I will update the OP.0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Another place to look for comparables would be CP as of Update 29, where the tradeoffs are a lot easier to see than in the old system (and can be presumed up-to-date to boot).
Edited by FrancisCrawford on February 2, 2021 12:16PM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭For the High-Elf reduction while casting, you can use Light of Cyrodiil set as reference.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 2, 2021 12:21PM1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »For the High-Elf reduction while casting, you can use Light of Cyrodiil set as reference.
@Olupajmibanan got a suggestion of a discount to apply to account for the extra effect Light of Cyrodiil has?
ie: 15% reduction isn't worth the full five piece, but would you something like say 80% of it?0 -
Kuratius✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 12:27PM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »For the High-Elf reduction while casting, you can use Light of Cyrodiil set as reference.
@Olupajmibanan got a suggestion of a discount to apply to account for the extra effect Light of Cyrodiil has?
ie: 15% reduction isn't worth the full five piece, but would you something like say 80% of it?
I'd say even more. The value should vary depending on content, in PvE there aren't many chances to get interrupted while casting and the event is pretty rare. In PvP however, you get interrupted wuite often. But despite that, I'd give the 15% reduction 90% worth of a 5pc bonus.0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Yep had a typo (divide by 25 sec instead of 45 <doh>) in my calculation for argonian in excel - thanks for the catch!
Updated the OP with this correction, and change breton passive uptime to 10%.Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »For the High-Elf reduction while casting, you can use Light of Cyrodiil set as reference.
@Olupajmibanan got a suggestion of a discount to apply to account for the extra effect Light of Cyrodiil has?
ie: 15% reduction isn't worth the full five piece, but would you something like say 80% of it?
I'd say even more. The value should vary depending on content, in PvE there aren't many chances to get interrupted while casting and the event is pretty rare. In PvP however, you get interrupted wuite often. But despite that, I'd give the 15% reduction 90% worth of a 5pc bonus.
Added.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 2, 2021 12:35PM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Khajit passive works only on 2/3 when blocking while Argonian works for 100% even while blocking. And honestly, Argonian is usualy picked for that very reason, to be able to restore a lot of stats even while blocking. I think we should account for that.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 2, 2021 12:36PM0 -
Kuratius✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Yep had a typo (divide by 25 sec instead of 45 <doh>) in my calculation for argonian in excel - thanks for the catch!
Updated the OP with this correction, and change breton passive uptime to 10%.Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »For the High-Elf reduction while casting, you can use Light of Cyrodiil set as reference.
@Olupajmibanan got a suggestion of a discount to apply to account for the extra effect Light of Cyrodiil has?
ie: 15% reduction isn't worth the full five piece, but would you something like say 80% of it?
I'd say even more. The value should vary depending on content, in PvE there aren't many chances to get interrupted while casting and the event is pretty rare. In PvP however, you get interrupted wuite often. But despite that, I'd give the 15% reduction 90% worth of a 5pc bonus.
Added.
Fix the spoiler tag in the argonian passive tab, it still has the old total value.Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 12:36PM0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Problem I see with Argonian's Live Mender 6% healing bonus passive is that it is still based on old 2% healing gear set bonus.
2+ years ago (Wrathstone update) initial racial rebalance took place and live mender value was established - 6%.
However, later on, gear set bonus, this passive is based on, was buffed to 4% (as it was heavily underperforming compared to other bonuses, like crit / dmg / stat bonus etc).
But the problem is that Live Mender passive was not touched at all, at that time and it still has "old" set bonus efficiency standards. So this passive should definetly buffed "updated" to current standards. It is 3x 2% so updating it would mean it should be 3x 4% - so 12%.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on February 2, 2021 12:40PM1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Yep had a typo (divide by 25 sec instead of 45 <doh>) in my calculation for argonian in excel - thanks for the catch!
Updated the OP with this correction, and change breton passive uptime to 10%.Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »For the High-Elf reduction while casting, you can use Light of Cyrodiil set as reference.
@Olupajmibanan got a suggestion of a discount to apply to account for the extra effect Light of Cyrodiil has?
ie: 15% reduction isn't worth the full five piece, but would you something like say 80% of it?
I'd say even more. The value should vary depending on content, in PvE there aren't many chances to get interrupted while casting and the event is pretty rare. In PvP however, you get interrupted wuite often. But despite that, I'd give the 15% reduction 90% worth of a 5pc bonus.
Added.
Fix the spoiler tag in the argonian passive tab, it still has the old total value.
It is, changed down from 2.2 to 1.27Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Khajit passive works only on 2/3 when blocking while Argonian works for 100% even while blocking. And honestly, Argonian is usualy picked for that very reason, to be able to restore a lot of stats even while blocking. I think we should account for that.
I haven't taken this effect into account (would also affect wood elf) and can't value it, but I guess the OP is trying to assume generally optimal use cases. I will add a note about it though.0 -
Kuratius✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Khajit passive works only on 2/3 when blocking while Argonian works for 100% even while blocking. And honestly, Argonian is usualy picked for that very reason, to be able to restore a lot of stats even while blocking. I think we should account for that.
This is only relevant for tank builds, it's irrelevant for DD builds.
In comparison with something like the breton passive, you can always take advantage of the regen passive by just not permablocking, but you cant apply elemental status effects to yourself ( and afaik it wouldnt work on the first hit anyways, so it doesnt help with oneshots)Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 12:46PM0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Problem I see with Argonian's Live Mender 6% healing bonus passive is that it is still based on old 2% healing gear set bonus.
2+ years ago (Wrathstone update) initial racial rebalance took place and live mender value was established - 6%.
However, later on, gear set bonus, this passive is based on, was buffed to 4% (as it was heavily underperforming compared to other bonuses, like crit / dmg / stat bonus etc).
But the problem is that Live Mender passive was not touched at all, at that time and it still has "old" set bonus efficiency standards. So this passive should definetly buffed "updated" to current standards. It is 3x 2% so updating it would mean it should be 3x 4% - so 12%.
If you expand the spoiler tabs for set bonuses and Argonian, you will see that in the above calculations I am using the current bonus of 4% as a reference.0 -
Kuratius✭✭✭
Total: 7.29ExistingRug61 wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Yep had a typo (divide by 25 sec instead of 45 <doh>) in my calculation for argonian in excel - thanks for the catch!
Updated the OP with this correction, and change breton passive uptime to 10%.Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »For the High-Elf reduction while casting, you can use Light of Cyrodiil set as reference.
@Olupajmibanan got a suggestion of a discount to apply to account for the extra effect Light of Cyrodiil has?
ie: 15% reduction isn't worth the full five piece, but would you something like say 80% of it?
I'd say even more. The value should vary depending on content, in PvE there aren't many chances to get interrupted while casting and the event is pretty rare. In PvP however, you get interrupted wuite often. But despite that, I'd give the 15% reduction 90% worth of a 5pc bonus.
Added.
Fix the spoiler tag in the argonian passive tab, it still has the old total value.
It is, changed down from 2.2 to 1.27
I'm talking about this part.0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭
Total: 7.29ExistingRug61 wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Yep had a typo (divide by 25 sec instead of 45 <doh>) in my calculation for argonian in excel - thanks for the catch!
Updated the OP with this correction, and change breton passive uptime to 10%.Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »For the High-Elf reduction while casting, you can use Light of Cyrodiil set as reference.
@Olupajmibanan got a suggestion of a discount to apply to account for the extra effect Light of Cyrodiil has?
ie: 15% reduction isn't worth the full five piece, but would you something like say 80% of it?
I'd say even more. The value should vary depending on content, in PvE there aren't many chances to get interrupted while casting and the event is pretty rare. In PvP however, you get interrupted wuite often. But despite that, I'd give the 15% reduction 90% worth of a 5pc bonus.
Added.
Fix the spoiler tag in the argonian passive tab, it still has the old total value.
It is, changed down from 2.2 to 1.27
I'm talking about this part.
Ah yep missed that, fixed.0 -
Iki✭✭✭It`s slightly misleading to compare races by how many set-bonuses their racials provide, because those racial bonuses are not equally useful. For example, you calculated nords frost resistance to be wroth 1.75 set-bonuses, yet in practise theres very little incoming frost-dmg in this game, while majority of elemental dmg is fire or shock, hence nords frost-resistance is close to useless stat. Nords armor bonus is also always same, while bonuses like wep/spell dmg, regen and stam/mag get increased by other buffs and modifiers. Just make orc and nord and go beat iron atronach with identical build and see how much more wep dmg elves got with their wep dmg racial bonus, then you see what I meant.
My opinion regarding nord racials is biased, as i m devout damage dealer nord, and its small comfort for me that nord would be bis for end-game tanking, but fact of the matter still is that racial-bonuses are not equally useful and races should not be compared just by how many "set-bonuses" they got. I`d be happy to give away some of my nords tankyness if I got dps-increase in return instead of useless frost-resistance.2 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »...
I think that you are a little wrong:
First of ALL.
Yes OK. Orc have 8 ?
Altmer 5?
Nord 6.66 + ?
Where will you use frost resist bonus ?
As tank or DD ?
You calculate it AS 1.75 ?
How to use it ? For tank as example ?
For top DPS-
As DD dps out is too small that not even an option.
No magika, stamina only DD ?
1500 and HP ? ... Ult on hit ??? And more def ... .
As tank - 32500 defs, cold resist what ?
Tri stats are good for tanks.
For DD some times clear stats are better.
So for tanking you need all 3 HP, Mana,Stamina.
Khajiit you calculate have 900*3, nord have 2500 ?
Kajiit have better healing and regen resources, you calculate it like:
1.40 and ult gen like : 0.97 good.
So Kajiit have as tank already better points.
2600 def against sneak better and 12 crit heal and dps ?
Not 100% clear choise.
But as DD nord is not good you can understand it even with no calculation.
And how will you use cold res on tank ?
0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭It`s slightly misleading to compare races by how many set-bonuses their racials provide, because those racial bonuses are not equally useful. For example, you calculated nords frost resistance to be wroth 1.75 set-bonuses, yet in practise theres very little incoming frost-dmg in this game, while majority of elemental dmg is fire or shock, hence nords frost-resistance is close to useless stat. Nords armor bonus is also always same, while bonuses like wep/spell dmg, regen and stam/mag get increased by other buffs and modifiers. Just make orc and nord and go beat iron atronach with identical build and see how much more wep dmg elves got with their wep dmg racial bonus, then you see what I meant.
My opinion regarding nord racials is biased, as i m devout damage dealer nord, and its small comfort for me that nord would be bis for end-game tanking, but fact of the matter still is that racial-bonuses are not equally useful and races should not be compared just by how many "set-bonuses" they got. I`d be happy to give away some of my nords tankyness if I got dps-increase in return instead of useless frost-resistance.
Yep I don't disagree with this.
I was using the equivalent values ZOS was using in the game, but I did point out that I think this over-values elemental resistances so put the ** against the races this affects. Unfortunately we don't have a better comparison point for this though, and figured it was better to at least present it accurately based on the numbers an equivalence as it is right now, rather than try to make a judgement call myself on what resistance is "worth".
The main reason I was presenting it all was that these values are getting used in bits and pieces across several discussions right now, and given I already had this analysis done from a previous patch I figured I would add it here as a reference.
I would be the first to admit that it definitely isn't the be all and end all in terms of comparing the races.0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Khajit passive works only on 2/3 when blocking while Argonian works for 100% even while blocking. And honestly, Argonian is usualy picked for that very reason, to be able to restore a lot of stats even while blocking. I think we should account for that.
True, but Argonian passive has quite a substantial kiss-curse effect as it requires a potion and has an actual gold cost. Khajiit has passive that works 100% of the time, while Argonian passive is a "proc" passive - it only works when you drink potion.
Also passive recovery can take advatage of major recovery buffs provided by potions (40%).
If one would min-max potion passive (21 second potion cooldown) this would translate to 380 tri-stat recovery.
(4000 ÷ 21 = 190 every second so 380)
However, using tri-stat recovery glyphs on a same setup would provide 402 tri-stat recovery
(134 + 134 + 134 = 402)
This comparison gets even worse if you would applay Argonian PTS changes - 297 tri-stat recovery.
(3125 ÷ 21 = 148 every second so 297).1 -
Kuratius✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »
Total: 7.29ExistingRug61 wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Yep had a typo (divide by 25 sec instead of 45 <doh>) in my calculation for argonian in excel - thanks for the catch!
Updated the OP with this correction, and change breton passive uptime to 10%.Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »For the High-Elf reduction while casting, you can use Light of Cyrodiil set as reference.
@Olupajmibanan got a suggestion of a discount to apply to account for the extra effect Light of Cyrodiil has?
ie: 15% reduction isn't worth the full five piece, but would you something like say 80% of it?
I'd say even more. The value should vary depending on content, in PvE there aren't many chances to get interrupted while casting and the event is pretty rare. In PvP however, you get interrupted wuite often. But despite that, I'd give the 15% reduction 90% worth of a 5pc bonus.
Added.
Fix the spoiler tag in the argonian passive tab, it still has the old total value.
It is, changed down from 2.2 to 1.27
I'm talking about this part.
Ah yep missed that, fixed.
Once you're done sorting out errors and updating the totals in the spoiler tabs (e.g. breton & Nord too) you probably want to update your conclusions in the text as well. E.g. Argonian is no longer a particularly high value race.
You might also want to provide the old value, before the nerfs.
I think the best way to do this would be to link to a google sheet, so you don't have manually update the forum post every time you spot an error.0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Khajit passive works only on 2/3 when blocking while Argonian works for 100% even while blocking. And honestly, Argonian is usualy picked for that very reason, to be able to restore a lot of stats even while blocking. I think we should account for that.
True, but Argonian passive has quite a substantial kiss-curse effect as it requires a potion and has an actual gold cost. Khajiit has passive that works 100% of the time, while Argonian passive is a "proc" passive - it only works when you drink potion.
Also passive recovery can take advatage of major recovery buffs provided by potions (40%).
If one would min-max potion passive (21 second potion cooldown) this would translate to 380 tri-stat recovery.
(4000 ÷ 21 = 190 every second so 380)
However, using tri-stat recovery glyphs on a same setup would provide 402 tri-stat recovery
(134 + 134 + 134 = 402)
This comparison gets even worse if you would applay Argonian PTS changes - 297 tri-stat recovery.
(3125 ÷ 21 = 148 every second so 297).
Additionally argonian’s recovery isn’t scalable with multipliers0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Khajit passive works only on 2/3 when blocking while Argonian works for 100% even while blocking. And honestly, Argonian is usualy picked for that very reason, to be able to restore a lot of stats even while blocking. I think we should account for that.
True, but Argonian passive has quite a substantial kiss-curse effect as it requires a potion and has an actual gold cost. Khajiit has passive that works 100% of the time, while Argonian passive is a "proc" passive - it only works when you drink potion.
Also passive recovery can take advatage of major recovery buffs provided by potions (40%).
If one would min-max potion passive (21 second potion cooldown) this would translate to 380 tri-stat recovery.
(4000 ÷ 21 = 190 every second so 380)
However, using tri-stat recovery glyphs on a same setup would provide 402 tri-stat recovery
(134 + 134 + 134 = 402)
This comparison gets even worse if you would applay Argonian PTS changes - 297 tri-stat recovery.
(3125 ÷ 21 = 148 every second so 297).
In regards to potion use, the above analysis assumes all (sustain) races are using potions on cooldown in order to provide the major regen buffs. This was part of the assumption of why 1.7 was chosen as the factor for comparing restore vs regen.
So potion use is a moot point in this regard.
But, I will admit it is a bigger discrepancy non endgame where you aren't using potions on cooldown. In this instances the other races still get most of there regen worth, whereas Argonian gets none. This is a downside to Argonian, but it wasn't the scenario consider for these calculations (which was play that maximised the passives).Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Khajit passive works only on 2/3 when blocking while Argonian works for 100% even while blocking. And honestly, Argonian is usualy picked for that very reason, to be able to restore a lot of stats even while blocking. I think we should account for that.
True, but Argonian passive has quite a substantial kiss-curse effect as it requires a potion and has an actual gold cost. Khajiit has passive that works 100% of the time, while Argonian passive is a "proc" passive - it only works when you drink potion.
Also passive recovery can take advatage of major recovery buffs provided by potions (40%).
If one would min-max potion passive (21 second potion cooldown) this would translate to 380 tri-stat recovery.
(4000 ÷ 21 = 190 every second so 380)
However, using tri-stat recovery glyphs on a same setup would provide 402 tri-stat recovery
(134 + 134 + 134 = 402)
This comparison gets even worse if you would applay Argonian PTS changes - 297 tri-stat recovery.
(3125 ÷ 21 = 148 every second so 297).
Additionally argonian’s recovery isn’t scalable with multipliers
This is accounted for by the 1.7 (assumed value as described in the OP) factor which is applied to all resource restore passives as a divisor. The 1.7 is based on an estimate of an average of +70% regen boosts across the resources. Obviously this could be more or less, but I had to pick something to work with to at least try to take this effect into account.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 2, 2021 1:04PM0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭When Altmers have WPD, no lore works.
No logick works.
Magick ORCs ... .
What reason is Frost resistance for ?
It was lore before, now ... for what reason ?Edited by AyaDark on February 2, 2021 1:05PM1 -
Kuratius✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Khajit passive works only on 2/3 when blocking while Argonian works for 100% even while blocking. And honestly, Argonian is usualy picked for that very reason, to be able to restore a lot of stats even while blocking. I think we should account for that.
True, but Argonian passive has quite a substantial kiss-curse effect as it requires a potion and has an actual gold cost. Khajiit has passive that works 100% of the time, while Argonian passive is a "proc" passive - it only works when you drink potion.
Also passive recovery can take advatage of major recovery buffs provided by potions (40%).
If one would min-max potion passive (21 second potion cooldown) this would translate to 380 tri-stat recovery.
(4000 ÷ 21 = 190 every second so 380)
However, using tri-stat recovery glyphs on a same setup would provide 402 tri-stat recovery
(134 + 134 + 134 = 402)
This comparison gets even worse if you would applay Argonian PTS changes - 297 tri-stat recovery.
(3125 ÷ 21 = 148 every second so 297).
Just to make something clear here: Your comparison is slightly flawed because it doesn't take into account the additonal return (the one that is baseline and not from the argonian race) from potions that you get extra if you use potion cooldown - that said, I'd probably say it is apt given their gold cost. Not to mention the fact that you'd be drinking potions more often than what would be efficient for major regen buff uptimes.Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 1:02PM0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭
That resource restore goes for every race, that 7.5k mag or stam or 8k health is the same for all racesTommy_The_Gun wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Khajit passive works only on 2/3 when blocking while Argonian works for 100% even while blocking. And honestly, Argonian is usualy picked for that very reason, to be able to restore a lot of stats even while blocking. I think we should account for that.
True, but Argonian passive has quite a substantial kiss-curse effect as it requires a potion and has an actual gold cost. Khajiit has passive that works 100% of the time, while Argonian passive is a "proc" passive - it only works when you drink potion.
Also passive recovery can take advatage of major recovery buffs provided by potions (40%).
If one would min-max potion passive (21 second potion cooldown) this would translate to 380 tri-stat recovery.
(4000 ÷ 21 = 190 every second so 380)
However, using tri-stat recovery glyphs on a same setup would provide 402 tri-stat recovery
(134 + 134 + 134 = 402)
This comparison gets even worse if you would applay Argonian PTS changes - 297 tri-stat recovery.
(3125 ÷ 21 = 148 every second so 297).
Just to make something clear here: Your comparison is slightly flawed because it doesn't take into account the additonal return (the one that is baseline and not from the argonian race) from potions that you get extra if you use potion cooldown - that said, I'd probably say it is apt given their gold cost. Not to mention the fact that you'd be drinking potions more often than what would be efficient for major regen buff uptimes.
0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭
That resource restore goes for every race, that 7.5k mag or stam or 8k health is the same for all racesTommy_The_Gun wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Khajit passive works only on 2/3 when blocking while Argonian works for 100% even while blocking. And honestly, Argonian is usualy picked for that very reason, to be able to restore a lot of stats even while blocking. I think we should account for that.
True, but Argonian passive has quite a substantial kiss-curse effect as it requires a potion and has an actual gold cost. Khajiit has passive that works 100% of the time, while Argonian passive is a "proc" passive - it only works when you drink potion.
Also passive recovery can take advatage of major recovery buffs provided by potions (40%).
If one would min-max potion passive (21 second potion cooldown) this would translate to 380 tri-stat recovery.
(4000 ÷ 21 = 190 every second so 380)
However, using tri-stat recovery glyphs on a same setup would provide 402 tri-stat recovery
(134 + 134 + 134 = 402)
This comparison gets even worse if you would applay Argonian PTS changes - 297 tri-stat recovery.
(3125 ÷ 21 = 148 every second so 297).
Just to make something clear here: Your comparison is slightly flawed because it doesn't take into account the additonal return (the one that is baseline and not from the argonian race) from potions that you get extra if you use potion cooldown - that said, I'd probably say it is apt given their gold cost. Not to mention the fact that you'd be drinking potions more often than what would be efficient for major regen buff uptimes.
But the comparison made was using glyphs of potion cooldown vs not.
Wit the glyphs your getting that 7.5k mag or stam and 8k health much more frequently, every 21 seconds instead of 45. So your more than doubling the return of the potions base effect over time. Thats why it needs to be taken into account.
Also, the comparison is actually more a comparison of the potion cooldown glyph vs the tri recovery glyph, it just happens to use argonian to maximised the potion cooldown effect.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 2, 2021 1:09PM0 -
Kuratius✭✭✭
That resource restore goes for every race, that 7.5k mag or stam or 8k health is the same for all racesTommy_The_Gun wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »You're probably overvaluing Bretons if you assume 100 % uptime on their spell resist passive. In practice the uptime is quite low & it's a conditional bonus, which are often explicitly allowed to break efficiency standards.
Yeah thats true.
Although in general I am always assuming "best case" above, ie for the passive sthat have a colldown I assume the happen on cooldown, which also overvalues them somewhat as this isn't going to be the case in practicality, but I have no basis to estimate this value.
Ballpark estimate is probably a 10-20 % uptime for the breton passive. You really shouldnt be getting an elemental debuff that often. And even that is probably an overestimate for most fights in the game.
Another thing, either your khajit evaluation is overvalued or your argonian evaluation is undervalued. The Argonian passive should come out weaker than the khajit passive because the khajit passive is somewhere on the ballpark of 438 regen while the argonian passive is around 415 or so. Meanwhile the Khajit passive is 1.4 set bonuses while the argonian one is 2.2 ? WTF?
Khajit passive works only on 2/3 when blocking while Argonian works for 100% even while blocking. And honestly, Argonian is usualy picked for that very reason, to be able to restore a lot of stats even while blocking. I think we should account for that.
True, but Argonian passive has quite a substantial kiss-curse effect as it requires a potion and has an actual gold cost. Khajiit has passive that works 100% of the time, while Argonian passive is a "proc" passive - it only works when you drink potion.
Also passive recovery can take advatage of major recovery buffs provided by potions (40%).
If one would min-max potion passive (21 second potion cooldown) this would translate to 380 tri-stat recovery.
(4000 ÷ 21 = 190 every second so 380)
However, using tri-stat recovery glyphs on a same setup would provide 402 tri-stat recovery
(134 + 134 + 134 = 402)
This comparison gets even worse if you would applay Argonian PTS changes - 297 tri-stat recovery.
(3125 ÷ 21 = 148 every second so 297).
Just to make something clear here: Your comparison is slightly flawed because it doesn't take into account the additonal return (the one that is baseline and not from the argonian race) from potions that you get extra if you use potion cooldown - that said, I'd probably say it is apt given their gold cost. Not to mention the fact that you'd be drinking potions more often than what would be efficient for major regen buff uptimes.
Ah yeah, ty. Still, it's probably best to compare them without potion cooldown in the first place.
Edit: Ignore what I said, the post above by rug explains it.Edited by Kuratius on February 2, 2021 1:11PM0