PTS Update 29 - Feedback Thread for Armor Bonuses & Penalties

dcmgti · January 2021

Maybe they should try and balance armor through battlespirit for pvp. Or allow heavy armor users to take more crit damage in pvp as others have suggested. Just an adjustment to Malacath would curb heavy armor in my opinion. I still don't see why anyone would wear light armor in pvp next patch, especially for melee mag classes like magplar and magdk.

StarOfElyon · January 2021

I'm excited for the armor changes but there have been some good points raised. Light armor should be the least penalized armor because it is already weaker, having super low armor ratings. So adding penalties against martial attacks from these 8k weapon damage tank-canons out there won't result in anything good. As it is now, heavy armor and health stacking (while still being able to pump out loads of damage) are a serious problem in PVP.

People will complain about nerfs to Nords and Heavy Armor but the truth is that both are overperforming. No magicka class, especially the melee variety, has a chance against these Tank-Canon builds. If you attempt to block these powerful 2H melee attacks with your block penalties, you'll quickly be out of stamina needed to flee the fight.

Medium armor gets no penalties so why wouldn't people also just load up on medium armor and stack health and weapon damage. Again, light armor is going to be the worst type of armor to wear. It would only be advised for a MagSorc with massive shields and the ability to stay at range to use light armor. At that point, you might as well just rename it Sorc Armor. So there needs to be some more defensive bonuses to light armor against martial attacks for all those magicka classes that can't use shields as effectively.

Dracane · January 2021

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Medium armor gets no penalties so why wouldn't people also just load up on medium armor and stack health and weapon damage. Again, light armor is going to be the worst type of armor to wear. It would only be advised for a MagSorc with massive shields and the ability to stay at range to use light armor. At that point, you might as well just rename it Sorc Armor. So there needs to be some more defensive bonuses to light armor against martial attacks for all those magicka classes that can't use shields as effectively.

Absolutely true. I am under the impression they balance light armor only with MagSorc in mind.
How any other class is supposed to manage wearing this, is beyond me.
What is expected of someone wearing light armor? How do they expect you to survive? You will get rolled over with no chance to escape or retaliate.

The only thing keeping light armor alive is streak and nightblade shade.
Light armor needs a survival strategy. Though neither does it buff heals nor shields, since it gives no spell damage, magicka or % buffs to either. If light armor is about moving fast, then replace this atrociously useless slow "reduction" passive and replace it with straight up movement speed per piece worn.

Firstmep · January 2021

Dracane wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

The "Dream" of running 4/3 or 4/2/1 etc is a pipe dream, if you want to run a set thats light armor, you will still run that set in light armor and be forced into running light armor and deal with its downsides.

Not much of a choice really.

That's why sets also exist for jewelry and weapons.
I agree though, probably nothing will change.

I still like the armor changes, they just need some reconsideration. I doubt ZoS will change their mind and remove it all together. So what we can and should do, is give feedback on how to properly balance penalties and benefits instead of complaining how much we want them gone.

I fear that when all we do is to voice how much we want it all reverted instead of giving advise, this might just go live as it is. Time is always short here.

I dont mind the underlying concept, but imho it does nothing, but further accentuate the difference in armor weights, and heavy armor seems like too big a of a winner here, frankly.

Light armor specifically, really needs some love in pvp.

I suggested a while back to give light armor a passive that improves all damage shields( increased size and maybe even cost reduction).
I should also add that Annulement by itself is incredibly underhelming currently, mostly due to ZOS' effort to nerf high damage shield magsorcs, which they couldve solved years ago by removing shield stacking and rebalancing shields around that.

Firstmep · January 2021

Dracane wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Medium armor gets no penalties so why wouldn't people also just load up on medium armor and stack health and weapon damage. Again, light armor is going to be the worst type of armor to wear. It would only be advised for a MagSorc with massive shields and the ability to stay at range to use light armor. At that point, you might as well just rename it Sorc Armor. So there needs to be some more defensive bonuses to light armor against martial attacks for all those magicka classes that can't use shields as effectively.

Absolutely true. I am under the impression they balance light armor only with MagSorc in mind.
How any other class is supposed to manage wearing this, is beyond me.
What is expected of someone wearing light armor? How do they expect you to survive? You will get rolled over with no chance to escape or retaliate.

The only thing keeping light armor alive is streak and nightblade shade.
Light armor needs a survival strategy. Though neither does it buff heals nor shields, since it gives no spell damage, magicka or % buffs to either. If light armor is about moving fast, then replace this atrociously useless slow "reduction" passive and replace it with straight up movement speed per piece worn.

Honestly, i couldnt aggree with you more.

I dont see how were supposed to survive on something like a magcro in light armor.

Mistform is grossly overperforming right now, but even with that its not enough, that should tell everyone how bad light armor is right now.

Dracane · January 2021

Firstmep wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

The "Dream" of running 4/3 or 4/2/1 etc is a pipe dream, if you want to run a set thats light armor, you will still run that set in light armor and be forced into running light armor and deal with its downsides.

Not much of a choice really.

That's why sets also exist for jewelry and weapons.
I agree though, probably nothing will change.

I still like the armor changes, they just need some reconsideration. I doubt ZoS will change their mind and remove it all together. So what we can and should do, is give feedback on how to properly balance penalties and benefits instead of complaining how much we want them gone.

I fear that when all we do is to voice how much we want it all reverted instead of giving advise, this might just go live as it is. Time is always short here.

I dont mind the underlying concept, but imho it does nothing, but further accentuate the difference in armor weights, and heavy armor seems like too big a of a winner here, frankly.

Light armor specifically, really needs some love in pvp.

I suggested a while back to give light armor a passive that improves all damage shields( increased size and maybe even cost reduction).
I should also add that Annulement by itself is incredibly underhelming currently, mostly due to ZOS' effort to nerf high damage shield magsorcs, which they couldve solved years ago by removing shield stacking and rebalancing shields around that.

A removal of Shieldstacking and a resulting rejuvenation of individual shields is a dream I have since years. It just feels like a burden to be forced into shieldstacking.

Syrpynt · January 2021

Here's a concept:

Heavy armor
--> (1/2) increase your buffs and debuffs done by 1%, but reduce your healing done by 3% and reduce your damage done by 4% per piece worn.
--> (2/2) increase your buffs and debuffs done by 2%, but reduce your healing done by 1% and reduce your damage done by 2% per piece worn.

Medium Armor
--> (1/2) increase your penetration done by 1%, but reduce your buffs and debuffs done by 3% and reduce your healing done by 4% per piece worn.
--> (2/2) increase your penetration done by 2%, but reduce your buffs and debuffs done by 1% and reduce your healing done by 2% per piece worn.

Light Armor
--> (1/2) increase your damage and healing done by 1%, but reduce your buffs and debuffs by 3% and increase your chance for status effects by 4% per piece worn.
--> (2/2) increase your damage and healing done by 2%, but reduce your buffs and debuffs by 1% and increase your chance for status effects by 2% per piece worn.

Hear me out:
• Heavy armor users shouldn't be worried about doing damage, but buffing teammates and taking damage well.
• Medium armor users know how to fight, they stab things--penetrate armor if you will.
• Light armor users should be getting the damage/healing buff but the risk should be that that they can get their damage shields bypassed with status effects. Healers don't need spell penetration, so why light and medium armor had damage and penetration swapped that way--makes no sense to me.

I'd like to go a step further and say that:
• Spell and weapon power should simply be one "Power" (since penetration is often both physical and spell).
• "Power" should be separated from healing.
• Resource pool size should have nothing to do with damage and healing, but with how long you will last in a fight. This will also save calculations for damage and healing done.
• Add total healing done, healing received, and total penetration into the tooltip character menu.

Now the last fix needed for HEAVY proc sets:

Crimson: Reduce damage by half, heal for a flat amount only affected by the healing received/done. IE: '4,500 bleed damage to all enemies in the area and heal for 9,000 once every 8 seconds.' and the 9,000 could 9,900 if you have 10% healing done bonus.

Thews of the Harbinger: Increase AoE damage received by 5%, status affects shouldn't proc the set's damaging effect.

etc...

Xebov · January 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

Hear me out:
• Heavy armor users shouldn't be worried about doing damage, but buffing teammates and taking damage well.
• Medium armor users know how to fight, they stab things--penetrate armor if you will.
• Light armor users should be getting the damage/healing buff but the risk should be that that they can get their damage shields bypassed with status effects. Healers don't need spell penetration, so why light and medium armor had damage and penetration swapped that way--makes no sense to me.

Tanks have to be able to heal themselves in certain situations so giving them - healing done is counterproductive.
Healers have to debuff enemies and buff teammates as well so having - buff and debuff is counterproductive.

Faulgor · January 2021

Dracane wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Medium armor gets no penalties so why wouldn't people also just load up on medium armor and stack health and weapon damage. Again, light armor is going to be the worst type of armor to wear. It would only be advised for a MagSorc with massive shields and the ability to stay at range to use light armor. At that point, you might as well just rename it Sorc Armor. So there needs to be some more defensive bonuses to light armor against martial attacks for all those magicka classes that can't use shields as effectively.

Absolutely true. I am under the impression they balance light armor only with MagSorc in mind.
How any other class is supposed to manage wearing this, is beyond me.
What is expected of someone wearing light armor? How do they expect you to survive? You will get rolled over with no chance to escape or retaliate.

The only thing keeping light armor alive is streak and nightblade shade.
Light armor needs a survival strategy. Though neither does it buff heals nor shields, since it gives no spell damage, magicka or % buffs to either. If light armor is about moving fast, then replace this atrociously useless slow "reduction" passive and replace it with straight up movement speed per piece worn.

What I'd love, thematically, is a bonus to armor enchantments for Light Armor, like the Infused trait. That makes a lot of sense to me as a defensive bonus for magical armor. Better shields and a bonus to healing done are other obvious options, which is why I find it so strange that ZOS chose to copy bonuses from Medium Armor instead. IMO the armor types should be more distinct than that.

Dracane · January 2021

Faulgor wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Medium armor gets no penalties so why wouldn't people also just load up on medium armor and stack health and weapon damage. Again, light armor is going to be the worst type of armor to wear. It would only be advised for a MagSorc with massive shields and the ability to stay at range to use light armor. At that point, you might as well just rename it Sorc Armor. So there needs to be some more defensive bonuses to light armor against martial attacks for all those magicka classes that can't use shields as effectively.

Absolutely true. I am under the impression they balance light armor only with MagSorc in mind.
How any other class is supposed to manage wearing this, is beyond me.
What is expected of someone wearing light armor? How do they expect you to survive? You will get rolled over with no chance to escape or retaliate.

The only thing keeping light armor alive is streak and nightblade shade.
Light armor needs a survival strategy. Though neither does it buff heals nor shields, since it gives no spell damage, magicka or % buffs to either. If light armor is about moving fast, then replace this atrociously useless slow "reduction" passive and replace it with straight up movement speed per piece worn.

What I'd love, thematically, is a bonus to armor enchantments for Light Armor, like the Infused trait. That makes a lot of sense to me as a defensive bonus for magical armor. Better shields and a bonus to healing done are other obvious options, which is why I find it so strange that ZOS chose to copy bonuses from Medium Armor instead. IMO the armor types should be more distinct than that.

This sounds like the perfect idea. Would make sense that magical linen can hold stronger magic.
This reminds me of a skyrim mod that added an enchantment perk that made enchants applied to robes stronger.
Would be cool if they did that here. Sounds only logical.

Replacing that useless bash cost reduction with 2% enchantment value per piece worn, would be interesting. Not very impactful, though it has flavor. With 7 light armor and full magicka enchants, that would only be around 550 magicka. Not really impactful at all outside of a good feeling. So maybe more like 4% per piece.

Syrpynt · January 2021

Xebov wrote: »

Tanks have to be able to heal themselves in certain situations so giving them - healing done is counterproductive.
Healers have to debuff enemies and buff teammates as well so having - buff and debuff is counterproductive.

Yes, but if tanks have more buffing for the group and debuffing for the enemies, healer doesn't need to do that as much anymore.

If healer is healing more, then they don't need to buff the group or debuff enemies as much anymore.

If dps is damaging more, they won't have to heal or buff themselves as much.

If you look at the values I gave as examples, you're losing only 7 to 14% in "minor" actions when the roles should be focusing on their +14% "primary" actions for their assigned role. The point is that you don't need to do those things if you have others in your group doing it for you.

Now, I'm not saying the-above is all that would need to be done--The game's solo content would need to be rebalanced to compensate, but the good thing is that the solo content isn't that difficult anyway, unless you're talkin' vMA or vVH.

Firstmep · January 2021

Dracane wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

The "Dream" of running 4/3 or 4/2/1 etc is a pipe dream, if you want to run a set thats light armor, you will still run that set in light armor and be forced into running light armor and deal with its downsides.

Not much of a choice really.

That's why sets also exist for jewelry and weapons.
I agree though, probably nothing will change.

I still like the armor changes, they just need some reconsideration. I doubt ZoS will change their mind and remove it all together. So what we can and should do, is give feedback on how to properly balance penalties and benefits instead of complaining how much we want them gone.

I fear that when all we do is to voice how much we want it all reverted instead of giving advise, this might just go live as it is. Time is always short here.

I dont mind the underlying concept, but imho it does nothing, but further accentuate the difference in armor weights, and heavy armor seems like too big a of a winner here, frankly.

Light armor specifically, really needs some love in pvp.

I suggested a while back to give light armor a passive that improves all damage shields( increased size and maybe even cost reduction).
I should also add that Annulement by itself is incredibly underhelming currently, mostly due to ZOS' effort to nerf high damage shield magsorcs, which they couldve solved years ago by removing shield stacking and rebalancing shields around that.

A removal of Shieldstacking and a resulting rejuvenation of individual shields is a dream I have since years. It just feels like a burden to be forced into shieldstacking.

Well, great minds think alike.

Dracane · January 2021

Firstmep wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

The "Dream" of running 4/3 or 4/2/1 etc is a pipe dream, if you want to run a set thats light armor, you will still run that set in light armor and be forced into running light armor and deal with its downsides.

Not much of a choice really.

That's why sets also exist for jewelry and weapons.
I agree though, probably nothing will change.

I still like the armor changes, they just need some reconsideration. I doubt ZoS will change their mind and remove it all together. So what we can and should do, is give feedback on how to properly balance penalties and benefits instead of complaining how much we want them gone.

I fear that when all we do is to voice how much we want it all reverted instead of giving advise, this might just go live as it is. Time is always short here.

I dont mind the underlying concept, but imho it does nothing, but further accentuate the difference in armor weights, and heavy armor seems like too big a of a winner here, frankly.

Light armor specifically, really needs some love in pvp.

I suggested a while back to give light armor a passive that improves all damage shields( increased size and maybe even cost reduction).
I should also add that Annulement by itself is incredibly underhelming currently, mostly due to ZOS' effort to nerf high damage shield magsorcs, which they couldve solved years ago by removing shield stacking and rebalancing shields around that.

A removal of Shieldstacking and a resulting rejuvenation of individual shields is a dream I have since years. It just feels like a burden to be forced into shieldstacking.

Well, great minds think alike.

That is very sweet of you to say.

Xebov · January 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Tanks have to be able to heal themselves in certain situations so giving them - healing done is counterproductive.
Healers have to debuff enemies and buff teammates as well so having - buff and debuff is counterproductive.

Yes, but if tanks have more buffing for the group and debuffing for the enemies, healer doesn't need to do that as much anymore.

You are aware that certain buffs/debuffs are tied to typical tank used gear and skills while others are tied to typical healer used gear and skills?

Syrpynt · January 2021

(Edit: Fixed a quote bracket typo)

Xebov wrote: »

You are aware that certain buffs/debuffs are tied to typical tank used gear and skills while others are tied to typical healer used gear and skills?

Yeah, then you'd have to allocate more CP into those sub-actions as a penalty for doing something outside of your role.

And you realize there are sets you can use as a tank in certain slots that are a "light armor set" that can surpass some tank sets like Almalexia's mercy (heal group) or Sanctuary (increase healing for group)?

If you're suggesting to remove roles entirely--I'm not against this either. But this whole "Let's pretend everyone has a role with a button in group menu, and then no one gets consequences for faking it" hurts PvE and PvP alike.

There needs to be something that gaps roles to ensure people are doing what they say they are doing. Whether Zenimax does it through armor, role tags, or active effects--doesn't matter. As long as the game becomes balanced again.

stefj68 · January 2021

medium armor have now 2 sneak cost reduction... one from the armor bonus passive, and one from the skills you pick... they prolly didnt realize it ... 5 per pieces from the medium armor passive and 7 per pieces from improved sneak

i tested a few 4/3 and 4/2/1 scenario and i like it... (on tank and dps)
even if they dont reduce armor skills to 4 pieces instead of 5, in some builds i will go 4/3 or 4/2/1

guys they are asking us feedback on the current system, not to develop a new one... they are going in a direction we should gave them our feedback so its not totally g..... not a new overhaul system on it...

ACamaroGuy · January 2021

Firstmep wrote: »

So here i come with my overall thoughts:

1. When i first saw they introduce the new bonuses/penalties, i thought: Why? Why do we need more stats?

Armor weights already have thematic passives, if you are mage, light armor makes you a better mage.

This bonus/penalty system is going to come back biting them in the future if they want to change anything balance related.

This just feels like unnecessary stat bloat for no reason( kinda like many of the new cp stars(oh we 6 trillions stars to "choose" from!)yeah right..)

2. It looks very clear that they didnt think about the overall balance of the game, when coming up with these bonuses.

Heavy armor already dominated the pvp meta, and now you are making it even stronger for no apparent reason, while with the same stroke putting extra pressure on pve tanks?

3. They couldve just as easily baked these into new purchasable passives.

For example, rather than just taking more physical damage for wearing light armor, we could have a passive that increases our damage with magicka based attacks, but we also take more damage from martial attacks.

We can then CHOOSE if we want to take this passive that provides us with more damage, that comes with a downside or not.

In the current system if i want to play a magicka dd in pve i still have to use mostly light armor to maximize dmg and efficiency, so these new passives arent really a choice.

4. I feel like ZOS forgot that most sets in this game have 5pc bonuses and they also only drop in 1 armor weight XD.

The "Dream" of running 4/3 or 4/2/1 etc is a pipe dream, if you want to run a set thats light armor, you will still run that set in light armor and be forced into running light armor and deal with its downsides.

Not much of a choice really.

I think the only way around this would be if we were to get the armor pieces we should be able to change them for free to the weight we want. This way allowing us to choose our bonus and penalties. This would allow us the option to play how we want to play.

katorga · January 2021

Firstmep wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Medium armor gets no penalties so why wouldn't people also just load up on medium armor and stack health and weapon damage. Again, light armor is going to be the worst type of armor to wear. It would only be advised for a MagSorc with massive shields and the ability to stay at range to use light armor. At that point, you might as well just rename it Sorc Armor. So there needs to be some more defensive bonuses to light armor against martial attacks for all those magicka classes that can't use shields as effectively.

Absolutely true. I am under the impression they balance light armor only with MagSorc in mind.
How any other class is supposed to manage wearing this, is beyond me.
What is expected of someone wearing light armor? How do they expect you to survive? You will get rolled over with no chance to escape or retaliate.

The only thing keeping light armor alive is streak and nightblade shade.
Light armor needs a survival strategy. Though neither does it buff heals nor shields, since it gives no spell damage, magicka or % buffs to either. If light armor is about moving fast, then replace this atrociously useless slow "reduction" passive and replace it with straight up movement speed per piece worn.

Honestly, i couldnt aggree with you more.

I dont see how were supposed to survive on something like a magcro in light armor.

Mistform is grossly overperforming right now, but even with that its not enough, that should tell everyone how bad light armor is right now.

I dunno. With performance like it is mistform can be hit or miss (and shields).

High health and procs seem to be the best defense against the server, in addition to all the other benefits.

ealdwin · February 2021

Another, perhaps simpler, idea:

ZOS could also just straight up eliminate the penalties for each armor type, relying on the penalty being missing out on the benefits of the other armor types. Then:

Reduce the universal movement speed by a smidge.

Change the Light Armor Benefits to increase Movement Speed at all times (not just when sneaking) by 3% per piece.

No changes to Medium Armor Benefits

No changes to Heavy Armor Benefits

Extinct_Solo_Player · February 2021

For the heavy armor bonuses you could change the heavy armor benefit of reducing damage taken by 2% per piece. Many people would complain about this passive as there is no incentive to choose the other armor type over damage reduction. I suggest to make heavy armor unique to your original plan of making it for brawlers. You could do this by changing it to " Increase damage done with sword and shield abilities by 2/3% percent per piece of heavy equipped"

tomofhyrule · February 2021

Firstmep wrote: »

2. It looks very clear that they didn't think about the overall balance of the game, when coming up with these bonuses.

Heavy armor already dominated the pvp meta, and now you are making it even stronger for no apparent reason, while with the same stroke putting extra pressure on pve tanks?

This. The PvP meta won't change much with this, since the meta is currently wearing heavy armor and doing major burst damage with stam weapons like 2H. If these changes go as planned, then these PvP tanks will take even less damage from most weapons.

Meanwhile, people always complain about the lack of support roles in PvE since support roles don't do much damage so it's tougher to get through overland. This idea that heavy armor will take more mag damage, when there's a lot of incoming magic damage in dungeons/trials, ends up being a massive nerf to tanks. As if we don't have enough problems...

I really think that the heavy penalty should be damage instead. Most fully-kitted PvE tanks are pulling around 1.5k-3.5k DPS since we're mostly slotting buffs/cc skills, while we've got bursty heavy DPS in PvP who can still dole out a lot of damage. A damage penalty per heavy piece wouldn't really affect PvE tanks too much - If I'm pulling 3500 DPS, ending up getting even a 20% damage nerf to 2800 isn't a huge difference. But a huge nerf to someone doing 20-30k DPS... that would be a significant drop.

Firstmep wrote: »

4. I feel like ZOS forgot that most sets in this game have 5pc bonuses and they also only drop in 1 armor weight XD.

The "Dream" of running 4/3 or 4/2/1 etc is a pipe dream, if you want to run a set thats light armor, you will still run that set in light armor and be forced into running light armor and deal with its downsides.

Not much of a choice really.

Again, this is a big PvE problem. Every dungeon comes with a magDPS/healer set, a stam DPS set, and a tank set. Trials give us one set for each. And for the most part, these are the meta sets - sets like Hollowfang (light) and Yolnakriin (heavy) are basically required for certain support roles. It's tough to run less than 5 pieces of any of these because of those bonuses.

I'm guessing the idea would be for us to wear a few pieces and then jewels/weapons of these sets? But then we lose the bonus when bar swapping, and that also precludes using arena weapons as well. Or are they expecting us to use crafted sets? Pity there's no Minor Aegis bonus for crafted sets then...

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · February 2021

The more you nerf things in the name of diversity, the more restrictive the choices actually become. Pve tanks suffer enough as it is, and trying to make heavy armour feel "realistic" by penalizing movement is simply not realistic at all, but simply a forced contrivance. No thank you to the extra magic damage in vet trials and dungeons, and a fat no thank you to that roll dodge penalty. And light armour.. Where do I even begin. Where is the logic in wearing an armour.. an armour... and actually taking more damage from weapons than what your bare skin could handle??? Please explain this to me? I'm just shaking my head. There deserves to be entire essays about all the pseudo logic in these changes.

Firstmep · February 2021

katorga wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Medium armor gets no penalties so why wouldn't people also just load up on medium armor and stack health and weapon damage. Again, light armor is going to be the worst type of armor to wear. It would only be advised for a MagSorc with massive shields and the ability to stay at range to use light armor. At that point, you might as well just rename it Sorc Armor. So there needs to be some more defensive bonuses to light armor against martial attacks for all those magicka classes that can't use shields as effectively.

Absolutely true. I am under the impression they balance light armor only with MagSorc in mind.
How any other class is supposed to manage wearing this, is beyond me.
What is expected of someone wearing light armor? How do they expect you to survive? You will get rolled over with no chance to escape or retaliate.

The only thing keeping light armor alive is streak and nightblade shade.
Light armor needs a survival strategy. Though neither does it buff heals nor shields, since it gives no spell damage, magicka or % buffs to either. If light armor is about moving fast, then replace this atrociously useless slow "reduction" passive and replace it with straight up movement speed per piece worn.

Honestly, i couldnt aggree with you more.

I dont see how were supposed to survive on something like a magcro in light armor.

Mistform is grossly overperforming right now, but even with that its not enough, that should tell everyone how bad light armor is right now.

I dunno. With performance like it is mistform can be hit or miss (and shields).

High health and procs seem to be the best defense against the server, in addition to all the other benefits.

Yeah but I can do health and procs in heavy armor too, and better than in light.
My magplar runs around with 600 mag recovery with 100 mist form cost.
My point is that light in general is too weak defensively, and you don't lose too much dmg by using heavy.
With the further nerfs to crits, heavy armor and mala are only getting stronger in comparison.
And that's before the staggering 10-14% global dmg reduction from the new HA bonuses.
Like I said, I really think damage shields should get reworked, and light armor should be the prime armor weight that drives home that playstyle.

echo2omega · February 2021

Incentivize don't penalize:

Example. heavy armor is slow

Light armor +2% move speed per piece.
Medium armor +1% move speed per piece.
Heavy armor +0% move speed increase.

now wearing heavy armor makes the wearer slow. Not via a debuff or penalty but by the other armor weights providing a more substantial bonus.

Example: Light armor is strong vs spell damage weak vs martial damage (resistance values of armor weights may need readjusted)

Light armor +2%[or flat number] damage resistance vs spell damage per piece
Medium armor +1%[or flat number] damage resistance vs martial and spell damage per piece
Heavy armor +2%[or flat number] damage resistance vs martial damage.

In this form light armor will provide more significant protection vs spell damage than heavy armor. Heavy armor provides maximum protection vs martial damage but is "weak" against spell damage. Again, this is done by not penalizing players for making choices.

Example: Diversified bonuses.

Light armor provides +3% dodge cost reduction per piece.
Medium armor provides +3% break free cost reduction per piece.
Heavy armor provides +3% block cost reduction per piece.

Unified bonuses: (for example)
Light armor provides 768 spell AND martial damage penetration per piece.
Medium armor provides 768 spell AND martial crit chance per piece.
Heavy armor provides +1% healing received per piece.

And of course the BIG hurdle that would also need bridged is item sets need to come and all 3 weights.

"easy" fix. Allow crafters to fortify or unburden armor.
Fortify allows a crafter to increase the armor weight ( light -> medium -> heavy )
Unburden allows a crafter to decrease the armor weight (heavy -> medium -> light )

Mauin · February 2021

If the changes are being done for PvP, then for the love of the gods, put those changes into Battle Spirit instead of doing THIS. These changes are, quite frankly, awful, and make no sense at all. As other people have stated, the armor available as drops in game are meant to be used on magicka DPS, stamina DPS, healers, and tanks. They ONLY drop in the weights they are meant for, so the only way we can easily mix and match weights (beyond 2/5 or 1/1/5 via a monster set or Medusa) is by using crafted gear, and crafted gear is weaker than what we can farm. We're now essentially being penalized for the (previously) optimal gear we've spent who knows how long farming.

Secondly, having medium armor somehow escaping these changes with no penalties at all is vastly unfair to both light and heavy armor users, who now have to deal with extra penalties on top of what already existed. Example: light armor already had lower resistances, so why does it need to take EVEN MORE physical damage, which as was pointed out earlier, means that light armor users somehow take more physical damage than when they're naked, which is... Really, I have no comment for that. The same applies to heavy armor and the increased magic damage. Why do we take more damage than when we're naked?

Third, the current bonuses and penalties, beyond some of them making no sense, are over tuned. Again, I'm going to pick on light and heavy armor. Light armor does not need to be taking more physical damage when it's already the weakest in that aspect, nor does it need a 21% increase to the cost of block. Heavy armor also does not need to take more damage from magical attacks, nor does it need a 21% increase to the cost of dodge roll. A 21% increase on anything is too much. If those penalties (and the bonuses) remain, then they need to be reduced. 1% per piece (or even every two pieces) would be more acceptable.

At the very least, if this is being done because of a heavy armor meta in PvP, then just make heavy armor do significantly reduced damage (instead of taking increased magic damage), or target the source of the problem (which seems to be sets and items like Malacath, if I'm understanding correctly?). Now, I say that because I main a PvE tank and if some of these changes go through, or if the penalties are made worse for some reason, I may stop playing the role (as it's being made even less enjoyable), which is a shame since it's the only role I can currently do without major joint pain in both hands.

As it stands, I have tested things, and I am not able to counter the increased dodge cost in full heavy with my current CP level (1525), though I can get close on DK and Templar tanks via one of the new CP stars (which means sacrificing other stars that might be useful). I am also unable to counter the increased magic damage, which is going to be painful in vet trials or dungeons where there is a significant amount of incoming damage (Sunspire rings a bell). So, not only do I take more magic damage for no real reason in PvE, I also can't dodge roll the abundance of one-shot attacks (or tank busters) that seem to exist in veteran level PvE content.

Overall, I think these changes were poorly thought out and an attempt at balancing PvP (without affecting the heavy armor meta at all) while instead heavily affecting PvE. Such changes would fit better into Battle Spirit.

Firstmep · February 2021

Mauin wrote: »

If the changes are being done for PvP, then for the love of the gods, put those changes into Battle Spirit instead of doing THIS. These changes are, quite frankly, awful, and make no sense at all. As other people have stated, the armor available as drops in game are meant to be used on magicka DPS, stamina DPS, healers, and tanks. They ONLY drop in the weights they are meant for, so the only way we can easily mix and match weights (beyond 2/5 or 1/1/5 via a monster set or Medusa) is by using crafted gear, and crafted gear is weaker than what we can farm. We're now essentially being penalized for the (previously) optimal gear we've spent who knows how long farming.

Secondly, having medium armor somehow escaping these changes with no penalties at all is vastly unfair to both light and heavy armor users, who now have to deal with extra penalties on top of what already existed. Example: light armor already had lower resistances, so why does it need to take EVEN MORE physical damage, which as was pointed out earlier, means that light armor users somehow take more physical damage than when they're naked, which is... Really, I have no comment for that. The same applies to heavy armor and the increased magic damage. Why do we take more damage than when we're naked?

Third, the current bonuses and penalties, beyond some of them making no sense, are over tuned. Again, I'm going to pick on light and heavy armor. Light armor does not need to be taking more physical damage when it's already the weakest in that aspect, nor does it need a 21% increase to the cost of block. Heavy armor also does not need to take more damage from magical attacks, nor does it need a 21% increase to the cost of dodge roll. A 21% increase on anything is too much. If those penalties (and the bonuses) remain, then they need to be reduced. 1% per piece (or even every two pieces) would be more acceptable.

At the very least, if this is being done because of a heavy armor meta in PvP, then just make heavy armor do significantly reduced damage (instead of taking increased magic damage), or target the source of the problem (which seems to be sets and items like Malacath, if I'm understanding correctly?). Now, I say that because I main a PvE tank and if some of these changes go through, or if the penalties are made worse for some reason, I may stop playing the role (as it's being made even less enjoyable), which is a shame since it's the only role I can currently do without major joint pain in both hands.

As it stands, I have tested things, and I am not able to counter the increased dodge cost in full heavy with my current CP level (1525), though I can get close on DK and Templar tanks via one of the new CP stars (which means sacrificing other stars that might be useful). I am also unable to counter the increased magic damage, which is going to be painful in vet trials or dungeons where there is a significant amount of incoming damage (Sunspire rings a bell). So, not only do I take more magic damage for no real reason in PvE, I also can't dodge roll the abundance of one-shot attacks (or tank busters) that seem to exist in veteran level PvE content.

Overall, I think these changes were poorly thought out and an attempt at balancing PvP (without affecting the heavy armor meta at all) while instead heavily affecting PvE. Such changes would fit better into Battle Spirit.

And frankly some of these bonuses aren't even very thematic, nothing about dodge cost reduction screams magic user to me.
Also how does wearing light armor makes it more difficult to block?
And from a balance pov this puts heavy armor even further ahead in pvp, when it's already the most powerful armor type.

tomofhyrule · February 2021

echo2omega wrote: »

Incentivize don't penalize:

I agree with this for the most part, but I think some penalties could still be worthwhile - just nothing that affects taking damage too much.

A lot of people are pointing out that a physical damage penalty for light armor is stupid because you'd end up taking more damage with a robe than you would be naked. I think the damage taken should never end up as a penalty, only as a buff for certain types.

However movement I'm fine with being a penalty. I can't imagine it making any more sense to be faster in a robe than I am naked, but I could imagine being slower in full plate than I am naked. Yes, you can find youtube videos of people doing gymnastics in full plate, but I'd imagine that they'd probably feel more comfortable doing said feats in something a bit lighter - there's a reason that everyone in Olympic gymnastics wears spandex instead of chainmail.

For me, a penalty of -X% movement speed per piece of heavy is reasonable. A penalty of -X% resist per piece is not.

Here's another thing, but I don't know how feasible it is - I wouldn't argue with a 'costs stam to jump' penalty added as well. There aren't many mechanics in PvE stuff that need you to jump around, but PvP is a bunny hop fest. If heavier armor made jumping harder, you'd see the meta in PvP start to shift while not giving too many issues to the PvE side.

I'm still really hoping they change the heavy penalty to damage instead of mag resist, since as a PvE tank I can deal with being a 1K DPS who takes 5-10 minutes to kill a delve boss much more than I can handle not being able to stand up to any trial boss if I intend to be wearing sets that buff the group.

Zer0oo · February 2021

Disclaimer: i was not on the pts and it is mostly pvp pov

I am slightly concerned about the passives:

light armor:

sneak speed is nice but really nice aka only mag nb with cloak can make full use of it - useless for most of the other classes
roll dodge cost decrease is a theoretically a "good" passive, but seems from strange to give the light armor now what was something medium armor trademark is. dodging in the current state not really reliable because of unresponsive server, desync and most burst can NOT be dodged especial from the most dangerous stam specs stam neco and warden and neither can you avoid proc/dot builds with it.
increased block cost: since it is already quite expensive to block on anything else than a s&b especial if you outnumbered - 2k stam per blocked attack+15% (300) but i guess you could theoretical get some of the amount back from reduced breakfree. This calculation only works if you are only against 1 attack and the server would be responsive so you do not have to block longer than needed to make sure it actually gets blocked. Those conditions are for me at least almost never met.
increased damage received: that sounds really bad for light armor, because light armor already has the lowest resistances of all armors increasing this damage further will just make them even more unpopular than they are already. Right now i can effectively reduce the armor of most light armor builds to almost 0 resistance. Let's assume i run a low damage build on a stam warden with 15k shalk+15k dawnbreaker+4k light attack+8k vate 2h=42k burst damage with malacat and the 5% damage increase from light armor =>27.5k damage in pvp which will kill most light armor build or bring them into execute and they still have to cc break - note this combo can not be dodge

Dracane · February 2021

The logic of light armor taking more physical damage than being naked on top of having the lowest physical resistance, is widely deemed non sense. And so is the one that heavy takes more magic damage. I however tend to disagree.

Heavy armor would reduce the initial velocity of a magic projectile as is fullfilled by its high spell resistance. But since my partner is a metal worker, I know that metal stores and conducts heat and cold very efficiently, as well as electricity. (As do most people)

So while heavy armor would shelter you from the direct fireball, lightning bolt or ice spike; the metal would expose you to prolonged suffering by allowing shock to travel across your entire body and flame and frost prolonging the heat and cold.
Clothing makes sense to have extra magic mitigation. I make most of my clothes myself at home and know that cloth is very terrible at storing thermal energy or energy in general. Additionally the assumption that thread used in ESO, has certain magical properties to amplify this effect.

What does make sense, is that light armor would offer close to no protection against critical strikes.
I am not a fan of giving light armor either weakness though, as it already is weak defensively. I fear any light armor user who does not have cloak, shade and bolt escape next patch, will meet a swift and bitter end like this.

dcmgti · February 2021

Dracane wrote: »

The logic of light armor taking more physical damage than being naked on top of having the lowest physical resistance, is widely deemed non sense. And so is the one that heavy takes more magic damage. I however tend to disagree.

Heavy armor would reduce the initial velocity of a magic projectile as is fullfilled by its high spell resistance. But since my partner is a metal worker, I know that metal stores and conducts heat and cold very efficiently, as well as electricity. (As do most people)

So while heavy armor would shelter you from the direct fireball, lightning bolt or ice spike; the metal would expose you to prolonged suffering by allowing shock to travel across your entire body and flame and frost prolonging the heat and cold.
Clothing makes sense to have extra magic mitigation. I make most of my clothes myself at home and know that cloth is very terrible at storing thermal energy or energy in general. Additionally the assumption that thread used in ESO, has certain magical properties to amplify this effect.

What does make sense, is that light armor would offer close to no protection against critical strikes.
I am not a fan of giving light armor either weakness though, as it already is weak defensively. I fear any light armor user who does not have cloak, shade and bolt escape next patch, will meet a swift and bitter end like this.

I feel like this is already the case for any mag class that isn't NB or Sorc. At least a Magden has excellent healing. Magdk and Magplar will be the most effected. I play Magplar in heavy this patch because light armor is almost insta death right now. It will be even worse next patch.