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More Tank nerfs?
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Mythreindeer✭✭✭✭✭The racial nerfs seem overkill for sure.
Meh...always nerfing the wrong thing. Creating unintended balance issues.1 -
gatekeeper13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I dont how roll-dodge cost increase will work in pve tanking when they have built ALL HARD CONTENT around 1-shot mechanics, where the tank has to roll-dodge or will die.
It's a nice change for PVP because it makes ZERO sense for someone in heavy armor to roll-dodge like a ninja. But as pve is right now, just no.Okay, anyone got a list of all the "roll dodge or die" attacks that a tank literally *can't* tank even by blocking? Things that are autokill, or do more than (say) 40k to a blocking character in heavy armour?
I can say for certain that in the 1st Ogre bosses in vSCP, the melee Ogre 1-shots you even if you try to block his heavy attack. I always roll-dodge it.
Edited by gatekeeper13 on January 28, 2021 12:03PM2 -
Stahlor✭✭✭✭✭Wolfchild07 wrote: »Nord
Resist Frost:
This passive no longer grants immunity to the Chilled status effect.
Increased the Frost Resistance to 4620, up from 2310.
Rugged: Reduced the Armor granted from this passive to 2600, down from 3960.
It's ~6% mitigation reduced to ~4% --> that doesn't kill Nords...
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Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Wolfchild07 wrote: »Nord
Resist Frost:
This passive no longer grants immunity to the Chilled status effect.
Increased the Frost Resistance to 4620, up from 2310.
Rugged: Reduced the Armor granted from this passive to 2600, down from 3960.
It's ~6% mitigation reduced to ~4% --> that doesn't kill Nords...
+2% more dmg mitigation from a 150.000k blocked heavy attack from an elite add is still 3000 less health lost i believe.Edited by Grandchamp1989 on January 28, 2021 12:19PM0 -
Stahlor✭✭✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »+2% more dmg mitigation from a 150.000k blocked heavy attack from an elite add is still 3000 less health lost i believe.
How could all the other races survive - still having 2600CPs less after the nerf??
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Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »+2% more dmg mitigation from a 150.000k blocked heavy attack from an elite add is still 3000 less health lost i believe.
How could all the other races survive - still having 2600CPs less after the nerf??
Any race can "survive" not having any bonuses at all. But it doesn't take away from the fact that it's still a nerf to the most played Tank race 2% or not.
Some races excel at something while other races are better at something else.
You can still DPS on a high elf even if you took his spell damage (and now weapon damage) away but it's still a nerf regardless and will make it a less attractive choice.
PVE Tanking isn't exactly in a good place right now, so why you would nerf the most played Tank race (on the least played role: Tank) in the game is beyond me.
On top of that they're making it slower to Tank, less ressource sufficient and harder to dodge...
I'm sure Zos got a reason behind the madness but I can't see it.4 -
Stahlor✭✭✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »...so why you would nerf the most played Tank race (on the least played role: Tank) in the game is beyond me...
Maybe to give the second tanking race (Imperial) also a right to exist?
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wheresbes✭✭✭✭This thread is about tanking, I get it, but I was also thinking about the "play as you like", "do what your little heart desires" stuff.
When I tank with my Nord I see how I can live with fewer resistances (but WHY DO I HAVE TO?), but when I swap gear to DD well, that will make a difference.
We don't have high bonuses concerning stats, no added weapon or spell damage, so it made sense that we had high resistances (to something useful, not frost). I might not have the edge of a high elf/dunmer damage-wise, but I tend not to die unless I play stupid.
Compare that passive with Fortified Brass. Seems a huge loss to me.1 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »...so why you would nerf the most played Tank race (on the least played role: Tank) in the game is beyond me...
Maybe to give the second tanking race (Imperial) also a right to exist?
His cousin the imperial Tank got nerfed too lol2 -
Stahlor✭✭✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »His cousin the imperial Tank got nerfed too lol
3% --> 6% cost reduction is a nerf?
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caperb✭✭✭✭✭
✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »His cousin the imperial Tank got nerfed too lol
3% --> 6% cost reduction is a nerf?
Yes, since you wanted the stamina return from the passive2 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »His cousin the imperial Tank got nerfed too lol
3% --> 6% cost reduction is a nerf?
Tanks needs the sustain and ressources coming in to keep block up.
3% reduction does nothing compared to what was lost.
For a Tank it's clearly a nerf.
You do play Tank right?1 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It is time ZOS makes tank changes to PvP and only PvP, which do not affect PvE tanking. Tank is already barely played in PvE as is.
And I agree with the general concensus here... fix every dungeon to 100% allow blocking instead of forcing roll-dodging.5 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭It is time ZOS makes tank changes to PvP and only PvP, which do not affect PvE tanking. Tank is already barely played in PvE as is.
And I agree with the general concensus here... fix every dungeon to 100% allow blocking instead of forcing roll-dodging.
What exactly do you think needs to be changed about PvP tanking?0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PvE tanks are getting major buff of 20% more blocked damage (which is 25% more blocked dmg cause of how blocked dmg works). It is a change in play style.Edited by zvavi on January 28, 2021 1:34PM2 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I know ZOS has issues with characters in PvP being too tanky. This directly results in PvE tank nerfs, as is shown time and time again. Tank is already a very very very rare role in PvE, and nerfing PvE tanks does not help this.edward_frigidhands wrote: »It is time ZOS makes tank changes to PvP and only PvP, which do not affect PvE tanking. Tank is already barely played in PvE as is.
And I agree with the general concensus here... fix every dungeon to 100% allow blocking instead of forcing roll-dodging.
What exactly do you think needs to be changed about PvP tanking?
Now it does not matter if I agree or disagree with ZOS on their stance about PvP tanks, but they keep forgetting tanking nerfs hit PvE tanks as well.
**For the record: I do agree with a lot less tankyness in PvP, as some players seem invincible, even against groups.**
Thing is, in PvP we need less tankyness. Where in PvE we need to keep tanks on par/be stronger. So any changes to tanking will result in an imbalance on the other side of the spectrum(PvE vs PvP).2 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »
CP. It is a gold star, so no allocation needed.Grandchamp1989 wrote: »
CP. It is a gold star, so no allocation needed.
That is a change in playstyle, they want the slow blocking tank I see.
I guess you could just put on medium armor with your heavy armor piece being a gold chestplate.
If they want most of the mitigation to be through block anyway why not go with the armor choice with no drawbacks and cheaper blocks.1 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭
I know ZOS has issues with characters in PvP being too tanky. This directly results in PvE tank nerfs, as is shown time and time again. Tank is already a very very very rare role in PvE, and nerfing PvE tanks does not help this.edward_frigidhands wrote: »It is time ZOS makes tank changes to PvP and only PvP, which do not affect PvE tanking. Tank is already barely played in PvE as is.
And I agree with the general concensus here... fix every dungeon to 100% allow blocking instead of forcing roll-dodging.
What exactly do you think needs to be changed about PvP tanking?
Now it does not matter if I agree or disagree with ZOS on their stance about PvP tanks, but they keep forgetting tanking nerfs hit PvE tanks as well.
**For the record: I do agree with a lot less tankyness in PvP, as some players seem invincible, even against groups.**
Thing is, in PvP we need less tankyness. Where in PvE we need to keep tanks on par/be stronger. So any changes to tanking will result in an imbalance on the other side of the spectrum(PvE vs PvP).
There has been no evidence to support what you're saying about ZOS having issues with tanks in PvP. I am not sure where you're coming from about why tanks need to be less tanky in PvP. I am going to guess this is an anecdotal thing.
Right now PvP damage is at an all time high and it is very easy to build a character that can drop anything from 100%-0% in seconds. I can't even fathom why a role that is not really played much in PvP in a game where characters can build characters with massive burst damage would be an issue.
This is the first I am hearing of anyone mentioning tank pvp being an issue. To me it sounds like a dueling issue rather than an issue with actual PvP.1 -
WuChiWuGen✭✭✭The trouble with the tank meta's in PVP is simply they can't be killed and yet can kill easily.
When 12 can kill 60 the PVP game is totally broken.
It totally makes sense to go trolling tanky but to still be able to one shoot people is broken.
If heavy armor adds 33 percent more damage absorb it should reduce all damage by 33 percent.
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edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭WuChiWuGen wrote: »The trouble with the tank meta's in PVP is simply they can't be killed and yet can kill easily.
When 12 can kill 60 the PVP game is totally broken.
It totally makes sense to go trolling tanky but to still be able to one shoot people is broken.
If heavy armor adds 33 percent more damage absorb it should reduce all damage by 33 percent.
Can you show me a tank build that combines excellent survival with the ability to one-shot people?2 -
caperb✭✭✭✭✭
✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »WuChiWuGen wrote: »The trouble with the tank meta's in PVP is simply they can't be killed and yet can kill easily.
When 12 can kill 60 the PVP game is totally broken.
It totally makes sense to go trolling tanky but to still be able to one shoot people is broken.
If heavy armor adds 33 percent more damage absorb it should reduce all damage by 33 percent.
Can you show me a tank build that combines excellent survival with the ability to one-shot people?
Arctic blast + malacath + random proc set combination
Mist form + malacath + vate + zaan
Sweeps + vampire ulti
Werewolf + alessian
Well, not all of these combinations one shot and they all need more sets/skills to be dangerous, but they add a lot of pressure and I think you will get the idea.1 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »WuChiWuGen wrote: »The trouble with the tank meta's in PVP is simply they can't be killed and yet can kill easily.
When 12 can kill 60 the PVP game is totally broken.
It totally makes sense to go trolling tanky but to still be able to one shoot people is broken.
If heavy armor adds 33 percent more damage absorb it should reduce all damage by 33 percent.
Can you show me a tank build that combines excellent survival with the ability to one-shot people?
Arctic blast + malacath + random proc set combination
Mist form + malacath + vate + zaan
Sweeps + vampire ulti
Werewolf + alessian
Well, not all of these combinations one shot and they all need more sets/skills to be dangerous, but they add a lot of pressure and I think you will get the idea.
None of those 1-shot and the issue with those is not tanks but specific sets and playstyles (namely werewolf) being problematic.
This is the same as how there are characters possible with any other role that are able to do things they shouldn't because a specific item set is broken rather than the entire role (tank or dps) being broken.
This stuff (item sets and werewolves) is already being addressed with next patch.
Also sweeps plus vampire ultimate Is not even close to an example of this...0 -
starlizard70ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WuChiWuGen wrote: »The trouble with the tank meta's in PVP is simply they can't be killed and yet can kill easily.
When 12 can kill 60 the PVP game is totally broken.
It totally makes sense to go trolling tanky but to still be able to one shoot people is broken.
If heavy armor adds 33 percent more damage absorb it should reduce all damage by 33 percent.
This is the reason why they should have separate skill sets for PvP vs PvE. Unfortunately that didn't happen. I play both PvP and PvE, so the changes effect me in both places. It's going to be annoying for PvEer, mainly trial teams, etc, to change things around. But for PvPers this change was needed. Something is needed to break up the heavy tank ball group meta.Edited by starlizard70ub17_ESO on January 28, 2021 2:36PM"We have found a cave, but I don't think there are warm fires and friendly faces inside."1 -
caperb✭✭✭✭✭
✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »edward_frigidhands wrote: »WuChiWuGen wrote: »The trouble with the tank meta's in PVP is simply they can't be killed and yet can kill easily.
When 12 can kill 60 the PVP game is totally broken.
It totally makes sense to go trolling tanky but to still be able to one shoot people is broken.
If heavy armor adds 33 percent more damage absorb it should reduce all damage by 33 percent.
Can you show me a tank build that combines excellent survival with the ability to one-shot people?
Arctic blast + malacath + random proc set combination
Mist form + malacath + vate + zaan
Sweeps + vampire ulti
Werewolf + alessian
Well, not all of these combinations one shot and they all need more sets/skills to be dangerous, but they add a lot of pressure and I think you will get the idea.
None of those 1-shot and the issue with those is not tanks but specific sets and playstyles (namely werewolf) being problematic.
This is the same as how there are characters possible with any other role that are able to do things they shouldn't because a specific item set is broken rather than the entire role (tank or dps) being broken.
This stuff (item sets and werewolves) is already being addressed with next patch.
Also sweeps plus vampire ultimate Is not even close to an example of this...
You asked for tank builds that still are able to kill people, I gave you them. Sweeps + vampire ulti is a perfect example of a combination used in builds that is very tanky and hard to kill though at the same time can sweep a player in 1 or 2 seconds, especially when using the templar stun from behind.
But I think you have come to the same conclusion as me: It is the sets that are the problem and not the role in general. Yet some blame PvP tank builds for PvE tank nerfs, which is not true at all. It is just that ZOS made it viable to have both very high damage mitigation abilities as well as damage dealing abilities in the same build because of items like malacath and insane proc sets. For people who not make such builds it looks like the tankiness is the problem and then they come on the forum asking for nerfs to tanks.
Zos has the possibility to avoid nerfing PvE tanks though, for example by not focusing the damage mitigation but by adjusting the damage dealt when certain standards are set. PvE tanks will still be viable while at the same time a PvP tank has to make a choice whether he wants more mitigation or more damage.0 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »edward_frigidhands wrote: »WuChiWuGen wrote: »The trouble with the tank meta's in PVP is simply they can't be killed and yet can kill easily.
When 12 can kill 60 the PVP game is totally broken.
It totally makes sense to go trolling tanky but to still be able to one shoot people is broken.
If heavy armor adds 33 percent more damage absorb it should reduce all damage by 33 percent.
Can you show me a tank build that combines excellent survival with the ability to one-shot people?
Arctic blast + malacath + random proc set combination
Mist form + malacath + vate + zaan
Sweeps + vampire ulti
Werewolf + alessian
Well, not all of these combinations one shot and they all need more sets/skills to be dangerous, but they add a lot of pressure and I think you will get the idea.
None of those 1-shot and the issue with those is not tanks but specific sets and playstyles (namely werewolf) being problematic.
This is the same as how there are characters possible with any other role that are able to do things they shouldn't because a specific item set is broken rather than the entire role (tank or dps) being broken.
This stuff (item sets and werewolves) is already being addressed with next patch.
Also sweeps plus vampire ultimate Is not even close to an example of this...
You asked for tank builds that still are able to kill people, I gave you them.
You didn't though.
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