Tank looking for suggestions for more effective tanking of last boss of vDSA

josiahva · August 2020

Ok, currently my main tank is an Imperial DK and I find my default pug sets great for most of vDSA(Default sets are TBS, Imperium, and Lord Warden). I am working with 40k health, 24k magicka, and 30k stamina fully buffed and I have been doing 3DPS runs of vDSA. The only place I am struggling to survive is the last boss. I will grab the boss, take him to the door, let the group have him, then grab the mini bosses and take them away...the first 2 minis arent any real problem...the problems start when I hear the audio cue and go back for the 2nd set of minis....sometimes the boss will drag me all the way to the door...sometimes not...when he does, it hits me for 38k...no big deal, I just heal back up(though to be safe, more often than not I hit barrier or magma shell at this time, which also helps the group)...but immediately after this I am perma-rooted. I have found purge seems to fix this so I do have that play-around, but when I grab the 2nd round of minis I am in a bind because at this point I am pretty low on stamina keeping taunts on everything but the boss...this is fine if I have a potion or ult up but that is not always the case.

Since I am spending the vast majority of this fight far from the rest of the group...I can drop Imperium for a selfish set(dont want to drop Twice-Born-Star for this fight if I dont have to since resetting the mundus is just a PITA)...and Lord Warden for that matter. I have been looking and looking and can't seem to come up with 2 sets that will really help out here. Keep in mind that the set has to be available in weapons and jewelry(and the 2nd one a monster set)...meaning no Black Rose, etc.

To be clear, I am able to survive this fight as-is....but its not reliable enough...half the time I end up dead and cause the group to wipe. So I am looking for suggestions for sets that will better increase my survival in this stamina-draining fight, or skills I may not have considered using, or alternate ways to tank the fight, I am new to vDSA, only having just recently started farming it....and this is the way I was told to tank the fight...but it really makes no sense to me since the minis always spawn at the door...it seems as if there has to be a better spot for the group to stand than the door since they are often in the way of me getting good targeting on the minis to taunt. For that matter....why am I even taking the minis away? does the mage randomly target people or something? Seems far easier for me to just stay with the group to begin with...where I can shield them as needed and not spend twice the stamina needed on taunts.

Urzigurumash · August 2020

Before I go any further, are you using a Frost Staff on one bar and Sword & Shield on the other?

josiahva · August 2020

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Before I go any further, are you using a Frost Staff on one bar and Sword & Shield on the other?

Default is S&B front bar and Resto back bar...but I should swap to Ice staff for that fight, you are correct...but the real problem is the stam drain that comes from inner fire and dodge rolling out of roots(I inevitably do this at least once before I realize I can purge) which makes it so I cant sprint in the way I seem to need to there. So I will re-morph inner fire to the magicka version(since I only really need it for the last fight there...chains isn't a real taunt, but it does jump to the top of the threat list on everything but gargoyles in DSA...functioning the same till I can puncture...using chains in that way is nice since its a free cast a lot of the time....in fact, come to think of it, I should not slot inner fire at all, chains there should be enough...will help a LOT with the stam issue without reducing my magicka pool since I can't pull the minis.

I will however swap to Ice staff for that fight, the taunt is probably too slow for initial aggro, but the magicka block could come in handy, and since I am away from the group they dont need the combat prayer and healing ward any more.

That just returns us at last to the reason for tanking it this way...why? It seems there are plenty of places the group could stand to avoid the fire waves from the stationary ads without being in the way of the mini boss spawns.

blendertoes · August 2020

I have been farming vDSA recently and our tank runs Hatchling Shell, Earthgore and a couple of arena sword and board sets. The real problem is your groups DPS. If you can burn from 50 percent to 25 percent fast enough, you won’t get any more minis. It doesn’t take tremendous DPS, our group was at 63k for our last clear. They key is to have a war horn right before 50 percent and then the DPS drop ultis and parse. Every time we get the burn correct we clear. Every time we don’t, something goes sideways and we die.

Urzigurumash · August 2020

josiahva wrote: »

Seems far easier for me to just stay with the group to begin with...where I can shield them as needed and not spend twice the stamina needed on taunts.

I'm not a pro at this thing, so I could definitely be wrong, but I think the Mini-Bosses spawn wherever the boss is, and that two of them spawn right after 75%, and two of them spawn right after 50%, and that never changes. The first Knight Mini-Boss casts a healing rune, and the second Mage Mini-Boss casts a negate, and they all can do considerable damage to the DDs, so they have to focus them down first if they're near them for long - this delays burning down Hiath, who spawns more Atronachs the longer he is out, which will eventually overwhelm the group if they're not taken down first. Doing it this way probably requires a dedicated healer. I'm not sure if this is true, but purportedly that's the way this was supposed to be ran - the whole group goes up to the steps, tank stands in front of Hiath, group behind him, and tank chains in every Atro and Mini and the DDs focus them before returning to burn down Hiath. It seems to take a long time compared to the 3 DD shortcut method.

The 3 DD shortcut method just requires you to get all of the mini-bosses away from the group before they cause trouble and for the DDs to burn Hiath down fast enough that few Atros spawn. When it goes smoothly it goes really quickly. It going smoothly is far from a given so here's what I recommend being a moderately skilled PvP player who just tanked this place again for a few times:

- Use an Ice Staff to help keep your stam up as much as possible while you're tanking the First Two Mini-Bosses, so you can sprint and break-free and roll-dodge your way over to the Second Two Mini-Bosses in time and still have stam to keep all 4 taunted and out of there ASAP. Eat Bear Haunch instead of Sugar Skulls, this food works well with Ice Staff / S&B combo.

- Highlight Hiath as much as you can, so you don't accidentally taunt him when grabbing the Second Two, and likewise the fake-tank should keep Hiath highlighted so they don't accidentally grab one of the Mini-Bosses

- Take the First Two all the way up the steps at the far side. This will put you out of range of his 50% pull/blast thing. Tell your group to keep you notified, because you won't know when it happens, and you need to hightail it back there to grab the Second Two. Take all four as close to the steps as you can.

That's really it, the rest is on the DDs.

As for sets, there are quite a number of different tank sustain sets. Incidentally in your first post you mentioned Black Rose, I assume you meant the BRP weapons - that's also a 5 piece Heavy Armor sustain set from Imperial City, but intended for PvP. There are a number of great sets you can find fairly easily at traders - for health, Battalion Defender and Crest of Cyrodiil, for stam/mag sustain Eternal Vigor and Senchal Defender. Battalion Defender is indispensable for no-healer 4 man content. There are a number of other options if you expand the scope beyond Bind on Equip sets, including Arena Sword & Boards, Mythic Items, and Monster Sets. Despite the recent nerf to it, I still seem to do quite well in Stonekeeper when I need additional sustain. Also, if you really like using Twice Born, just take the Serpent and Atronach signs, use a Frost Staff, eat Bear Haunch, use tri-pots, and you'll have pretty good sustain, but note the numbers on TBS+Serpent+Atronach vs Eternal Vigor + Atronach or Serpent.

idk · August 2020

Urzigurumash wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Seems far easier for me to just stay with the group to begin with...where I can shield them as needed and not spend twice the stamina needed on taunts.

I'm not a pro at this thing, so I could definitely be wrong, but I think the Mini-Bosses spawn wherever the boss is, and that two of them spawn right after 75%, and two of them spawn right after 50%, and that never changes. .

This is correct. I do not know why OP is getting pulled in unless the group is not beating the timers. With 3 DPS that should not be an issue.

@josiahva When you get pulled in does everyone get a fire buff at their feet?

If so the group is not DPSing through the timers which is what that strat is based on. With three DD that should not be an issue. Your gear will not help them with that and being the second set off adds are spawning about the same time it increased the RNG factor for the entire group.

It really should not be happening. It is easier to be at range when the second set of adds spawn and range taunt them so they move away from the group. The RNG of something going very wrong is high as long as the adds are near the group. It is the very reason why the tank brings them away.

The root probably comes from the mage. Roll dodge should get you out of it, iirc. Again, you are likely being pulled in because the DDs are not burning the boss fast enough to beat the timers. Not a gear issue but a DPS issue.

finehair · August 2020

I use Torugs, ebon and tremorscale. I change tremor for something more selfish on the last round, maybe pirate skeleton just to have that survivability if the group dps is bit low.

Plan is; group waits at the gate where you come in to the arena. You, tank, go the boss and wait in his spawn point until he uses his flame aoe and spawns the fire atronach. Then you bring boss to the gate, to your dps and healer. Tank-debuff it until %75 hp.
After that point, healer takes the taunt on main boss. You take the minis and go all the way back to main boss' spawn location, pass the small lava river. That way, boss will not pull you when he does that pull mechanic. After first pull, you go back and gather the other mini bosses that spawned around and go all the way back again until %25.

You need ice staff on backbar for this though, because spamming inner fire will just take all the resources you have. Be sure to slot your "oh crap" ulti like support shield or dk %3 damage thing, I use that one and works great.

Don't spam unnecessary taunts on mini bosses and deplete your stam, that's what I used to do and it was a problem for me.

Also if the dps is good you won't have any troubles with keeping the minis for a while, just go pass the lava river towards the stairs and don't get pulled.

laissezfaire · August 2020

I used to use mist form when moving from front of the room to back or back to front. That doesn't really address your set issue but I found it worked well for not getting cc'd at all. I haven't done vdsa in a while though and dont know if tactics have changed. But I also remember using sustain sets on last boss. Engine guardian, dragon, desert rose. Again, that was a couple years ago... I am sure potentates and the mag Regen mythic item is probably better. You could run 3 PC potentates, mythic and 1 PC trainee with your tbs and monster set.

Edit:. But those meet your exact parameters. But not sure why you couldn't shuffle things around.

josiahva · August 2020

Well, I ran it a few more times this weekend, and I made some changes:

1. I re-morphed inner fire from inner beast(stam morph) to inner rage(magicka morph). This change alone made the biggest difference.
2. I started asking whoever has the boss taunt to step a few steps away from the gate when the minis spawn...this makes a HUGE difference in and off itself for targeting purposes.
3. I started taking the ads to just the other side of the lava stream...this puts me outside the range of the pull, but still allows me to be close enough to see the boss health.
4. I slotted meditate from Psijiic skill line...like Pirate Skeleton this give me access to major protection and more rss...on demand.

The audio cue for the pull is "You haven't even seen what I am capable of" or some such thing....at that point, his pull CCs his own minis and I know to head back to pick up the other two. I have zero problems with the first two ads now, I could tank them forever....with all 4 up, I do still have a clock, but it is far better...assuming the DPS is reasonable I can usually survive now for quite a bit longer.

finehair wrote: »

You need ice staff on backbar for this though, because spamming inner fire will just take all the resources you have. Be sure to slot your "oh crap" ulti like support shield or dk %3 damage thing, I use that one and works great.

Its not my magicka that is the issue in this fight...I have 1300 magicka regen and always have plenty with the pool of 24k, its the constant stam drain from breaking free, roll dodging, blocking, and sprinting that is the biggest issue...I would love to be able to trade health or magicka for stam(wish they had a stamina version of balance)....so with all of that I find resto staff better back bar here simply because the heavy restores more magicka if needed than the destro staff.

laissezfaire wrote: »

I used to use mist form when moving from front of the room to back or back to front. That doesn't really address your set issue but I found it worked well for not getting cc'd at all. I haven't done vdsa in a while though and dont know if tactics have changed. But I also remember using sustain sets on last boss. Engine guardian, dragon, desert rose. Again, that was a couple years ago... I am sure potentates and the mag Regen mythic item is probably better. You could run 3 PC potentates, mythic and 1 PC trainee with your tbs and monster set.

Edit:. But those meet your exact parameters. But not sure why you couldn't shuffle things around.

I wasn't even thinking in terms of non 5-piece sets for that, thank you. The Torc of Tonal Constancy would be great there...and while I wouldnt neccesarily chose potentates(ult cost reduction good...but the 2 piece isnt so useful there) I could indeed go with 2 piece Agility and 2 piece Trainee

In any case, the changes I have already made have greatly increased my survival, and I will consider the others, thank you guys.

NoMoreChillies · December 2020

Healer tanks boss, Tank + DPS smash adds other side of lava river

idk · December 2020

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Healer tanks boss, Tank + DPS smash adds other side of lava river

It is faster for the tank to just pull the adds away and then burn from 50 to the end. The DPS never stop DPSing the boss.

It is slower to kill the adds which also means a lower score. Of course, the group needs to have enough DPS to burn the boss fast enough but that seems to be a low bar.

Stahlor · December 2020

josiahva wrote: »

1. I re-morphed inner fire from inner beast(stam morph) to inner rage(magicka morph). This change alone made the biggest difference..

That was your issue - nobody uses the stam morph of that taunt.

Destyran · December 2020

One dps taunts main boss after minis spawn and then nuke main boss

Noldornir · January 2021

josiahva wrote: »

3. I started taking the ads to just the other side of the lava stream...this puts me outside the range of the pull, but still allows me to be close enough to see the boss health.

IMHO this is your issue: you are playing too close to group. The only effective way to know u can't be pulled in is the inability to see the boss health else you are playing in a some metre only borderline safe area.

You don't need to see boss health to know when to come back to entrance because you will immediatly realize the boss pulled when all the 3 DD health will drop in a single blow to like 5%; This is the pull u want to avoid.

When DPS is good you might not have time to do this the second time (bloodthirsthy and executes will kick in) and you might be pulled when trying to run away.

In order to learn content as tank you should rly go with healer tho and then go back in after without

NordSwordnBoard · January 2021

I've changed out ebon for something more selfish, as much of the time they may not get the buff due to range. Desert Rose is one I've used. I know mag isn t the issue, but that helps with the other inner fire and mag sustain. Bloodspawn can help you push out more warhorns or other ultimates.

code65536 · January 2021

A bit late to the party, but I wanted to clarify the mechanics in question...

Hiath will do two pull-ins, once at 50% and again at 25%.

At some point between those two pull-ins, Hiath is supposed to summon the second wave of adds. I'm not clear on exactly when those adds are supposed to be summoned, because that summoning can be delayed by other mechanics that Hiath does. I think it's somewhere in the ballpark of 30 to 40%.

When people talk about skipping those adds, what they're doing is burning the boss quickly from 40% to 25% because the boss will not summon the second wave of adds after the second pull-in, so if the boss is pushed to the 25% pull-in before he has a chance to do the second add summons (and this is because the add summoning can be delayed by other mechanics that he has queued up to do), those summons just won't happen. So if you want to try to push for a skip of the second add summons, have your DDs ulti-bomb the boss immediately after the first pull-in.

--- --- ---

But what if you do get the second wave of adds? As the tank, you do need to go back and taunt them. And this is where the danger for you lies. Because the second pull-in always happens shortly after the second add spawn.

So if you're coming back for the second wave of adds, you will most likely have to contend with the second pull-in. You could come in just close enough for your range taunt and then get away out of pull-in range as soon as you've taunted, but that's not super-reliable.

The other solution is to make sure that you have a damage shield up before you are pulled. The damage from Empowered Pull is Oblivion damage (cannot be mitigated or shielded) and it's designed to always leave a player with exactly 50 health remaining. Empowered Pull is incapable of actually killing anyone: it will reduce everyone to within a sliver of death, but it will never ever kill a player.

What kills people, then, is if they take any other damage from any other source, before they're able to recover from Empowered Pull. During the Empowered Pull itself, Hiath is not doing anything else, and all the adds are stunned for the duration of that mechanic, so players usually have a chance to heal back up before the action resumes, but if a player has a DoT on them (e.g., Entropy from Mavus Talnarith) or if there is a ground effect (e.g., the fire lines or the ground DoT from a hostile negate, nova, or meteor), they can die before they are healed back up. With just 50 health, a single tick of anything will instantly kill someone.

And that's where having a damage shield helps. The Empowered Pull bypasses and ignores the damage shield, so while you may be taken down to 50 health, your shield will remain at full strength, and that shield will protect you from other damage sources while you recover your health.

TL;DR: As a tank, when you come in to taunt the second wave of adds, make sure you keep your Igneous Shield up so that you won't die from the subsequent pull-in.

fred4 · January 2021

I run a pretty "selfish" dungeon PuG tank that I've taken into vDSA once or twice. Double SnB. Cyrodiil's Crest. Almalexia's Mercy. 5 heavy, 2 light. Vateshran SnB on one bar. Master's SnB on the other. Pretty impossible to die on that build. If you want to keep TBS and your monster set, I would try Cyrodiil's Crest on one bar, Master's SnB on the other. I have not used Imperium, but that shield has a 15 second cooldown, whereas Crest can heal you every 5 seconds and the Master's SnB does it when you taunt. With Puncture so cheap, the latter is a great heal and has no cooldown.

Urzigurumash · January 2021

fred4 wrote: »

Double SnB. Cyrodiil's Crest. Almalexia's Mercy. 5 heavy, 2 light. Vateshran SnB on one bar. Master's SnB on the other.

In my opinion Almalexia's is perfect for some of these rounds, but of course a poor choice for the shortcut method in the final stage, since you shouldn't be near your teammates after the first mini-bosses spawn. I would always recommend Master's S&B for any pug tank build if you can fit it in.

josiahva · January 2021

I ended up using slotting a Trainee ice staff, plus the Torc of Tonal Constancy backbar in lieu of a true 2nd set and now I rarely have any issues holding the 2nd group of minis unless the DPS is just incredibly low.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Double SnB. Cyrodiil's Crest. Almalexia's Mercy. 5 heavy, 2 light. Vateshran SnB on one bar. Master's SnB on the other.

In my opinion Almalexia's is perfect for some of these rounds, but of course a poor choice for the shortcut method in the final stage, since you shouldn't be near your teammates after the first mini-bosses spawn. I would always recommend Master's S&B for any pug tank build if you can fit it in.

I do use master S&B as well for that matter front bar.

dcmgti · January 2021

In relation to the stam drain from sprint and snare removal, I've found Race Against Time is extremely handy on my tanks for the last boss. Given you have a magicka recovery tank build(which is what mine are). Just casting it will remove the snares and help with speed so you dont have to sprint quite as much.

Almalexias Mercy or Battalion with masters s&b is definitely nice if you are taking all 4 minis. Yes true the group will be far away but you'll still get the heals from these sets. I personally like Almalexias Mercy over Battalion but that just comes down to personal preference.

Stonekeeper can be nice and selfish if you are blocking all the attacks from the minis and can help with sustain.

The single biggest thing that helped me was running race. DK wings will work for damage mit and snare removal but wont give you the speed boost

mobicera · January 2021

Something confuses me.
If you look at what code wrote you can see the easiest and most efficient way to do this is to hard nuke after first set of adds.
Now what confuses me is the suggestion of selfish gear.
See the damage done to a target isn't really the sole work of the dps, it's also on the support they receive and the debuffing of targets.
I would suggest taking this into consideration.
The best thing you can do as a tank is speed up the fight by providing support.
Now to see that the add skip occurs you need to do what you can to assist the nuke after first adds.
You can and probably should be running yolna/olo/masters sword and board my monster set of choice is earthgore.
Now when first set of adds spawn in make sure to drop a wall of elements with infused crusher this also will proc olo aim it so it hits your dps as well as the main boss, taunt both adds and then horn dropping an altar as you run away.
Then have the dps ulti dump.
This assuming you're 3dps are decent will skip the second add phase.

josiahva · January 2021

mobicera wrote: »

Something confuses me.
If you look at what code wrote you can see the easiest and most efficient way to do this is to hard nuke after first set of adds.
Now what confuses me is the suggestion of selfish gear.
See the damage done to a target isn't really the sole work of the dps, it's also on the support they receive and the debuffing of targets.
I would suggest taking this into consideration.
The best thing you can do as a tank is speed up the fight by providing support.
Now to see that the add skip occurs you need to do what you can to assist the nuke after first adds.
You can and probably should be running yolna/olo/masters sword and board my monster set of choice is earthgore.
Now when first set of adds spawn in make sure to drop a wall of elements with infused crusher this also will proc olo aim it so it hits your dps as well as the main boss, taunt both adds and then horn dropping an altar as you run away.
Then have the dps ulti dump.
This assuming you're 3dps are decent will skip the second add phase.

I disagree 100% on this for several reasons:

1. You are spending 75% of this fight with ZERO group support, no shards, no heals, nothing. This means that personal survival(IE "selfish" sets) is the priority.
2. As I said, its not the first set of minis that is any type of problem...easy to hold those forever regardless of what you are wearing as far as sets go...its the SECOND set of minis that starts the resource drain....think about what this means for a second, if you are in a good high damage group, the 2nd set of minis never even spawns so running Yoln, Powerful assault, Olo, whatever will do NOTHING to help(even if you could be close enough for Olo to have an effect, which you can't unless you want your group negated by the mini casters) groups who have damage low enough for the 2nd group to spawn to start with.

In reality, you would be correct that would be the most effective way to do it with 3 GOOD DPS putting out good numbers...but in reality, the ONLY way I ever do vDSA is with pugs simply because if you run it with guildies/friends, then it needs to be scheduled and I am really bad about scheduling time to play video games, feels way too much like work then.

The idea behind this thread to begin with was to find methods that allowed a group of any composition to complete it, and "selfish" sets are the best way for this particular fight.

dcmgti wrote: »

In relation to the stam drain from sprint and snare removal, I've found Race Against Time is extremely handy on my tanks for the last boss. Given you have a magicka recovery tank build(which is what mine are). Just casting it will remove the snares and help with speed so you dont have to sprint quite as much.

Almalexias Mercy or Battalion with masters s&b is definitely nice if you are taking all 4 minis. Yes true the group will be far away but you'll still get the heals from these sets. I personally like Almalexias Mercy over Battalion but that just comes down to personal preference.

Stonekeeper can be nice and selfish if you are blocking all the attacks from the minis and can help with sustain.

The single biggest thing that helped me was running race. DK wings will work for damage mit and snare removal but wont give you the speed boost

Amalexia's Mercy doesn't seem very useful...gives no base stats aside from health(armor is already maxed of course) and health isn't the problem in the fight, its stamina in particular that gets drained quickly with 4 minis with all the breaking free and blocking(more the breaking free or and/roll dodging) same thing with Battalion defender...far better to run a Trainee ice staff back bar and the Torc of Tonal Constancy and then just swap back and forth between magicka blocking and stamina blocking.

I have been playing around with something else that could be useful in this fight, though I have yet to test it:

Set 1: Grave Guardian
Set 2: Mighty Glacier(this can be swapped out with something more useful, Alkosh, Yoln, Olo, PA, Dragon's Defilement, even Knightmare, all depending on what you are going for) if you run a Warden tank
Monster Set: Lord Warden

I was testing this with a friend in light armor...uptime is great, and his resistances ended up at 32k spell resistance and 26k physical resistance. Essentially the entire group would get tank resistances...which would allow a simple stack and burn by the gate...yes, enemy negates would still be a thing and inconvenient, but easily countered if there is a sorc in the group with negates of their own they hold back.(a sorc tank might come in handy here)

mobicera · January 2021

josiahva wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

Something confuses me.
If you look at what code wrote you can see the easiest and most efficient way to do this is to hard nuke after first set of adds.
Now what confuses me is the suggestion of selfish gear.
See the damage done to a target isn't really the sole work of the dps, it's also on the support they receive and the debuffing of targets.
I would suggest taking this into consideration.
The best thing you can do as a tank is speed up the fight by providing support.
Now to see that the add skip occurs you need to do what you can to assist the nuke after first adds.
You can and probably should be running yolna/olo/masters sword and board my monster set of choice is earthgore.
Now when first set of adds spawn in make sure to drop a wall of elements with infused crusher this also will proc olo aim it so it hits your dps as well as the main boss, taunt both adds and then horn dropping an altar as you run away.
Then have the dps ulti dump.
This assuming you're 3dps are decent will skip the second add phase.

I disagree 100% on this for several reasons:

1. You are spending 75% of this fight with ZERO group support, no shards, no heals, nothing. This means that personal survival(IE "selfish" sets) is the priority.
2. As I said, its not the first set of minis that is any type of problem...easy to hold those forever regardless of what you are wearing as far as sets go...its the SECOND set of minis that starts the resource drain....think about what this means for a second, if you are in a good high damage group, the 2nd set of minis never even spawns so running Yoln, Powerful assault, Olo, whatever will do NOTHING to help(even if you could be close enough for Olo to have an effect, which you can't unless you want your group negated by the mini casters) groups who have damage low enough for the 2nd group to spawn to start with.

In reality, you would be correct that would be the most effective way to do it with 3 GOOD DPS putting out good numbers...but in reality, the ONLY way I ever do vDSA is with pugs simply because if you run it with guildies/friends, then it needs to be scheduled and I am really bad about scheduling time to play video games, feels way too much like work then.

The idea behind this thread to begin with was to find methods that allowed a group of any composition to complete it, and "selfish" sets are the best way for this particular fight.

dcmgti wrote: »

In relation to the stam drain from sprint and snare removal, I've found Race Against Time is extremely handy on my tanks for the last boss. Given you have a magicka recovery tank build(which is what mine are). Just casting it will remove the snares and help with speed so you dont have to sprint quite as much.

Almalexias Mercy or Battalion with masters s&b is definitely nice if you are taking all 4 minis. Yes true the group will be far away but you'll still get the heals from these sets. I personally like Almalexias Mercy over Battalion but that just comes down to personal preference.

Stonekeeper can be nice and selfish if you are blocking all the attacks from the minis and can help with sustain.

The single biggest thing that helped me was running race. DK wings will work for damage mit and snare removal but wont give you the speed boost

Amalexia's Mercy doesn't seem very useful...gives no base stats aside from health(armor is already maxed of course) and health isn't the problem in the fight, its stamina in particular that gets drained quickly with 4 minis with all the breaking free and blocking(more the breaking free or and/roll dodging) same thing with Battalion defender...far better to run a Trainee ice staff back bar and the Torc of Tonal Constancy and then just swap back and forth between magicka blocking and stamina blocking.

I have been playing around with something else that could be useful in this fight, though I have yet to test it:

Set 1: Grave Guardian
Set 2: Mighty Glacier(this can be swapped out with something more useful, Alkosh, Yoln, Olo, PA, Dragon's Defilement, even Knightmare, all depending on what you are going for) if you run a Warden tank
Monster Set: Lord Warden

I was testing this with a friend in light armor...uptime is great, and his resistances ended up at 32k spell resistance and 26k physical resistance. Essentially the entire group would get tank resistances...which would allow a simple stack and burn by the gate...yes, enemy negates would still be a thing and inconvenient, but easily countered if there is a sorc in the group with negates of their own they hold back.(a sorc tank might come in handy here)

I suggest you actually read what I wrote and think about it.
Olo lasts 20s
You make sure to proc olo as you run away that way they have the buff as you leave.
For the most crucial part, you also proc other buffs as you leave.
You can change a 2 minute fight to a 40s fight if you buff people and forget about being selfish.
I mean when I run away the fight is ending around the time their olo would run out.
They probably don't have it for a few seconds in execute, but they most certainly do for the crucial push

josiahva · January 2021

mobicera wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

Something confuses me.
If you look at what code wrote you can see the easiest and most efficient way to do this is to hard nuke after first set of adds.
Now what confuses me is the suggestion of selfish gear.
See the damage done to a target isn't really the sole work of the dps, it's also on the support they receive and the debuffing of targets.
I would suggest taking this into consideration.
The best thing you can do as a tank is speed up the fight by providing support.
Now to see that the add skip occurs you need to do what you can to assist the nuke after first adds.
You can and probably should be running yolna/olo/masters sword and board my monster set of choice is earthgore.
Now when first set of adds spawn in make sure to drop a wall of elements with infused crusher this also will proc olo aim it so it hits your dps as well as the main boss, taunt both adds and then horn dropping an altar as you run away.
Then have the dps ulti dump.
This assuming you're 3dps are decent will skip the second add phase.

I disagree 100% on this for several reasons:

1. You are spending 75% of this fight with ZERO group support, no shards, no heals, nothing. This means that personal survival(IE "selfish" sets) is the priority.
2. As I said, its not the first set of minis that is any type of problem...easy to hold those forever regardless of what you are wearing as far as sets go...its the SECOND set of minis that starts the resource drain....think about what this means for a second, if you are in a good high damage group, the 2nd set of minis never even spawns so running Yoln, Powerful assault, Olo, whatever will do NOTHING to help(even if you could be close enough for Olo to have an effect, which you can't unless you want your group negated by the mini casters) groups who have damage low enough for the 2nd group to spawn to start with.

In reality, you would be correct that would be the most effective way to do it with 3 GOOD DPS putting out good numbers...but in reality, the ONLY way I ever do vDSA is with pugs simply because if you run it with guildies/friends, then it needs to be scheduled and I am really bad about scheduling time to play video games, feels way too much like work then.

The idea behind this thread to begin with was to find methods that allowed a group of any composition to complete it, and "selfish" sets are the best way for this particular fight.

dcmgti wrote: »

In relation to the stam drain from sprint and snare removal, I've found Race Against Time is extremely handy on my tanks for the last boss. Given you have a magicka recovery tank build(which is what mine are). Just casting it will remove the snares and help with speed so you dont have to sprint quite as much.

Almalexias Mercy or Battalion with masters s&b is definitely nice if you are taking all 4 minis. Yes true the group will be far away but you'll still get the heals from these sets. I personally like Almalexias Mercy over Battalion but that just comes down to personal preference.

Stonekeeper can be nice and selfish if you are blocking all the attacks from the minis and can help with sustain.

The single biggest thing that helped me was running race. DK wings will work for damage mit and snare removal but wont give you the speed boost

Amalexia's Mercy doesn't seem very useful...gives no base stats aside from health(armor is already maxed of course) and health isn't the problem in the fight, its stamina in particular that gets drained quickly with 4 minis with all the breaking free and blocking(more the breaking free or and/roll dodging) same thing with Battalion defender...far better to run a Trainee ice staff back bar and the Torc of Tonal Constancy and then just swap back and forth between magicka blocking and stamina blocking.

I have been playing around with something else that could be useful in this fight, though I have yet to test it:

Set 1: Grave Guardian
Set 2: Mighty Glacier(this can be swapped out with something more useful, Alkosh, Yoln, Olo, PA, Dragon's Defilement, even Knightmare, all depending on what you are going for) if you run a Warden tank
Monster Set: Lord Warden

I was testing this with a friend in light armor...uptime is great, and his resistances ended up at 32k spell resistance and 26k physical resistance. Essentially the entire group would get tank resistances...which would allow a simple stack and burn by the gate...yes, enemy negates would still be a thing and inconvenient, but easily countered if there is a sorc in the group with negates of their own they hold back.(a sorc tank might come in handy here)

I suggest you actually read what I wrote and think about it.
Olo lasts 20s
You make sure to proc olo as you run away that way they have the buff as you leave.
For the most crucial part, you also proc other buffs as you leave.
You can change a 2 minute fight to a 40s fight if you buff people and forget about being selfish.
I mean when I run away the fight is ending around the time their olo would run out.
They probably don't have it for a few seconds in execute, but they most certainly do for the crucial push

lol, some 300 spell and weapon damage doesn't do a thing for low DPS, that is my point. Its great for those groups that can take advantage of it, but if you are looking at a group DPS of 40k its not going to help whereas those selfish sets will. What is average spell and weapon damage these days anyway? maybe 3k? increasing it 10% will increase group damage from 40k to 44k ...you might as well sit there with the group and spam light attacks and do the same thing. Now if group DPS is 160k, then its a huge difference.

I will say that its a viable strategy for groups that have group DPS on the verge of being able to push from 4 minis to 2 minis...but those groups will be few and far between...most times a group either has good DPS or bad DPS, its a rarity when they are on the threshold where 5-10k group DPS is going to be the deciding factor

mobicera · January 2021

josiahva wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

Something confuses me.
If you look at what code wrote you can see the easiest and most efficient way to do this is to hard nuke after first set of adds.
Now what confuses me is the suggestion of selfish gear.
See the damage done to a target isn't really the sole work of the dps, it's also on the support they receive and the debuffing of targets.
I would suggest taking this into consideration.
The best thing you can do as a tank is speed up the fight by providing support.
Now to see that the add skip occurs you need to do what you can to assist the nuke after first adds.
You can and probably should be running yolna/olo/masters sword and board my monster set of choice is earthgore.
Now when first set of adds spawn in make sure to drop a wall of elements with infused crusher this also will proc olo aim it so it hits your dps as well as the main boss, taunt both adds and then horn dropping an altar as you run away.
Then have the dps ulti dump.
This assuming you're 3dps are decent will skip the second add phase.

I disagree 100% on this for several reasons:

1. You are spending 75% of this fight with ZERO group support, no shards, no heals, nothing. This means that personal survival(IE "selfish" sets) is the priority.
2. As I said, its not the first set of minis that is any type of problem...easy to hold those forever regardless of what you are wearing as far as sets go...its the SECOND set of minis that starts the resource drain....think about what this means for a second, if you are in a good high damage group, the 2nd set of minis never even spawns so running Yoln, Powerful assault, Olo, whatever will do NOTHING to help(even if you could be close enough for Olo to have an effect, which you can't unless you want your group negated by the mini casters) groups who have damage low enough for the 2nd group to spawn to start with.

In reality, you would be correct that would be the most effective way to do it with 3 GOOD DPS putting out good numbers...but in reality, the ONLY way I ever do vDSA is with pugs simply because if you run it with guildies/friends, then it needs to be scheduled and I am really bad about scheduling time to play video games, feels way too much like work then.

The idea behind this thread to begin with was to find methods that allowed a group of any composition to complete it, and "selfish" sets are the best way for this particular fight.

dcmgti wrote: »

In relation to the stam drain from sprint and snare removal, I've found Race Against Time is extremely handy on my tanks for the last boss. Given you have a magicka recovery tank build(which is what mine are). Just casting it will remove the snares and help with speed so you dont have to sprint quite as much.

Almalexias Mercy or Battalion with masters s&b is definitely nice if you are taking all 4 minis. Yes true the group will be far away but you'll still get the heals from these sets. I personally like Almalexias Mercy over Battalion but that just comes down to personal preference.

Stonekeeper can be nice and selfish if you are blocking all the attacks from the minis and can help with sustain.

The single biggest thing that helped me was running race. DK wings will work for damage mit and snare removal but wont give you the speed boost

Amalexia's Mercy doesn't seem very useful...gives no base stats aside from health(armor is already maxed of course) and health isn't the problem in the fight, its stamina in particular that gets drained quickly with 4 minis with all the breaking free and blocking(more the breaking free or and/roll dodging) same thing with Battalion defender...far better to run a Trainee ice staff back bar and the Torc of Tonal Constancy and then just swap back and forth between magicka blocking and stamina blocking.

I have been playing around with something else that could be useful in this fight, though I have yet to test it:

Set 1: Grave Guardian
Set 2: Mighty Glacier(this can be swapped out with something more useful, Alkosh, Yoln, Olo, PA, Dragon's Defilement, even Knightmare, all depending on what you are going for) if you run a Warden tank
Monster Set: Lord Warden

I was testing this with a friend in light armor...uptime is great, and his resistances ended up at 32k spell resistance and 26k physical resistance. Essentially the entire group would get tank resistances...which would allow a simple stack and burn by the gate...yes, enemy negates would still be a thing and inconvenient, but easily countered if there is a sorc in the group with negates of their own they hold back.(a sorc tank might come in handy here)

I suggest you actually read what I wrote and think about it.
Olo lasts 20s
You make sure to proc olo as you run away that way they have the buff as you leave.
For the most crucial part, you also proc other buffs as you leave.
You can change a 2 minute fight to a 40s fight if you buff people and forget about being selfish.
I mean when I run away the fight is ending around the time their olo would run out.
They probably don't have it for a few seconds in execute, but they most certainly do for the crucial push

lol, some 300 spell and weapon damage doesn't do a thing for low DPS, that is my point. Its great for those groups that can take advantage of it, but if you are looking at a group DPS of 40k its not going to help whereas those selfish sets will. What is average spell and weapon damage these days anyway? maybe 3k? increasing it 10% will increase group damage from 40k to 44k ...you might as well sit there with the group and spam light attacks and do the same thing. Now if group DPS is 160k, then its a huge difference.

I will say that its a viable strategy for groups that have group DPS on the verge of being able to push from 4 minis to 2 minis...but those groups will be few and far between...most times a group either has good DPS or bad DPS, its a rarity when they are on the threshold where 5-10k group DPS is going to be the deciding factor

Its more than 300 spell damage, major and minor buffs calculate into this.
It's also flawed to assume a tank spamming la will exceed the dps gain provided by a tank providing as much group support and utility as they can.
Now if you're running with a group dps of 40k well that's your fault even a craglorn pug will exceed that.
Try showing people you can support on a tank and make friends you can clear the last round in maybe a minute.

Try this one day
Find a friend of yours that's hitting average numbers ie. 80k on a 21 million dummy.
Now get then to parse on a 6 solo
Then get them to parse with you on a tank providing olo/yolna crusher mino and major breach a minor buff if you have it, poop fist, bugs etc.
Fully support the person's dps
You may just be surprised how much a good support buffs dps...

Calm_Fury · January 2021

As others have said, this really shouldn't be happening with 3 DDs. The whole goal is for them to DPS the boss fast enough to skip the second add phase.

If they don't, it is a coin toss. Sometimes the second adds will immediately drop a negate where the group is and that is very hard to recover from with an inexperienced group.

If you still want to do try and are having issues, you have some options like using an Immobilization pot when you hear the sound. That will prevent them from rooting you.

When the boss pulls, everyone will be at 1% health, no matter what sets or skills they are using. I'm pretty sure not even Magma Shell can bypass that.

When I'm tanking that with inexperienced groups, I do Leeching / Baharas and either Stonekeeper or Engine Guardian for sustain.

Finally, though, if I were in your position, I would be trying to address the fact that the 3DDs are not burning the boss hard enough. So maybe the solution is to review the buffs/debuffs they are using. 4 years ago, my group had 1 DD running Major Breach (now it would be Ele Drain or Caltrops), one would have Warhorn to drop at exactly 50% (the goal is to push from 50 to 25 so he doesn't spawn the second set of adds) and generally see what your DDs area doing that the damage is low.

This burn can be done with 2 average DDs and a healer. Should be much easier with 3.

josiahva · January 2021

mobicera wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

Something confuses me.
If you look at what code wrote you can see the easiest and most efficient way to do this is to hard nuke after first set of adds.
Now what confuses me is the suggestion of selfish gear.
See the damage done to a target isn't really the sole work of the dps, it's also on the support they receive and the debuffing of targets.
I would suggest taking this into consideration.
The best thing you can do as a tank is speed up the fight by providing support.
Now to see that the add skip occurs you need to do what you can to assist the nuke after first adds.
You can and probably should be running yolna/olo/masters sword and board my monster set of choice is earthgore.
Now when first set of adds spawn in make sure to drop a wall of elements with infused crusher this also will proc olo aim it so it hits your dps as well as the main boss, taunt both adds and then horn dropping an altar as you run away.
Then have the dps ulti dump.
This assuming you're 3dps are decent will skip the second add phase.

I disagree 100% on this for several reasons:

1. You are spending 75% of this fight with ZERO group support, no shards, no heals, nothing. This means that personal survival(IE "selfish" sets) is the priority.
2. As I said, its not the first set of minis that is any type of problem...easy to hold those forever regardless of what you are wearing as far as sets go...its the SECOND set of minis that starts the resource drain....think about what this means for a second, if you are in a good high damage group, the 2nd set of minis never even spawns so running Yoln, Powerful assault, Olo, whatever will do NOTHING to help(even if you could be close enough for Olo to have an effect, which you can't unless you want your group negated by the mini casters) groups who have damage low enough for the 2nd group to spawn to start with.

In reality, you would be correct that would be the most effective way to do it with 3 GOOD DPS putting out good numbers...but in reality, the ONLY way I ever do vDSA is with pugs simply because if you run it with guildies/friends, then it needs to be scheduled and I am really bad about scheduling time to play video games, feels way too much like work then.

The idea behind this thread to begin with was to find methods that allowed a group of any composition to complete it, and "selfish" sets are the best way for this particular fight.

dcmgti wrote: »

In relation to the stam drain from sprint and snare removal, I've found Race Against Time is extremely handy on my tanks for the last boss. Given you have a magicka recovery tank build(which is what mine are). Just casting it will remove the snares and help with speed so you dont have to sprint quite as much.

Almalexias Mercy or Battalion with masters s&b is definitely nice if you are taking all 4 minis. Yes true the group will be far away but you'll still get the heals from these sets. I personally like Almalexias Mercy over Battalion but that just comes down to personal preference.

Stonekeeper can be nice and selfish if you are blocking all the attacks from the minis and can help with sustain.

The single biggest thing that helped me was running race. DK wings will work for damage mit and snare removal but wont give you the speed boost

Amalexia's Mercy doesn't seem very useful...gives no base stats aside from health(armor is already maxed of course) and health isn't the problem in the fight, its stamina in particular that gets drained quickly with 4 minis with all the breaking free and blocking(more the breaking free or and/roll dodging) same thing with Battalion defender...far better to run a Trainee ice staff back bar and the Torc of Tonal Constancy and then just swap back and forth between magicka blocking and stamina blocking.

I have been playing around with something else that could be useful in this fight, though I have yet to test it:

Set 1: Grave Guardian
Set 2: Mighty Glacier(this can be swapped out with something more useful, Alkosh, Yoln, Olo, PA, Dragon's Defilement, even Knightmare, all depending on what you are going for) if you run a Warden tank
Monster Set: Lord Warden

I was testing this with a friend in light armor...uptime is great, and his resistances ended up at 32k spell resistance and 26k physical resistance. Essentially the entire group would get tank resistances...which would allow a simple stack and burn by the gate...yes, enemy negates would still be a thing and inconvenient, but easily countered if there is a sorc in the group with negates of their own they hold back.(a sorc tank might come in handy here)

I suggest you actually read what I wrote and think about it.
Olo lasts 20s
You make sure to proc olo as you run away that way they have the buff as you leave.
For the most crucial part, you also proc other buffs as you leave.
You can change a 2 minute fight to a 40s fight if you buff people and forget about being selfish.
I mean when I run away the fight is ending around the time their olo would run out.
They probably don't have it for a few seconds in execute, but they most certainly do for the crucial push

lol, some 300 spell and weapon damage doesn't do a thing for low DPS, that is my point. Its great for those groups that can take advantage of it, but if you are looking at a group DPS of 40k its not going to help whereas those selfish sets will. What is average spell and weapon damage these days anyway? maybe 3k? increasing it 10% will increase group damage from 40k to 44k ...you might as well sit there with the group and spam light attacks and do the same thing. Now if group DPS is 160k, then its a huge difference.

I will say that its a viable strategy for groups that have group DPS on the verge of being able to push from 4 minis to 2 minis...but those groups will be few and far between...most times a group either has good DPS or bad DPS, its a rarity when they are on the threshold where 5-10k group DPS is going to be the deciding factor

Its more than 300 spell damage, major and minor buffs calculate into this.
It's also flawed to assume a tank spamming la will exceed the dps gain provided by a tank providing as much group support and utility as they can.
Now if you're running with a group dps of 40k well that's your fault even a craglorn pug will exceed that.
Try showing people you can support on a tank and make friends you can clear the last round in maybe a minute.

Try this one day
Find a friend of yours that's hitting average numbers ie. 80k on a 21 million dummy.
Now get then to parse on a 6 solo
Then get them to parse with you on a tank providing olo/yolna crusher mino and major breach a minor buff if you have it, poop fist, bugs etc.
Fully support the person's dps
You may just be surprised how much a good support buffs dps...

ok, 40k is an exaggeration, but with Craglorn pugs running 3 DPS I often see 60-70k group DPS....that is the brutal truth of the matter. Of course its not always like that, but its not uncommon either. Have you ever wondering why Yoln, Alkosh, etc only drop in trials? Its because they are FAR more effective in a 12 person group than they are in a 4 person group, I truly doubt that a 60k group is going to see more than 6k from equipping those. You are operating under the assumption that every DPS out there does 80k...that is simply NOT the reality of the matter. Pug groups are pug groups.

To be clear, I do not mind doing hard content with lower DPS, not everything is about DPS. As an example, yesterday I pugged vDoM and group DPS was 23k...yes, you read that right...23k(though likely it did go as high as 35-40k for the clone guy, since people were alive more). It did NOT stop us from finishing the dungeon, it did make the content significantly harder, but doing it anyway taught me some new tricks that I would never have bothered to learn otherwise. My skill increased because the group composition was less than ideal, and that is fine....the skill of the rest of the group increased as well because they had to learn the most efficient way to get past each fight working with limited DPS.

Another thing to note here....that stupid 21mil trial dummy is worthless for providing real DPS in real situations...ESPECIALLY when it comes to 4 man content. A 3mil or 6mil dummy is far closer to reality when it comes to 4 man groups. As for major breach...just how exactly do you apply that for anything more than the 1st 25% of the fight? It requires pierce armor or weakness to elements(or a Necro/Warden/Nightblade tank I suppose could do it while running away, doesnt help the other classes), minor breach is even rarer, limited to wearing Dragon's Defilement, Sunderflame or being a Templar. Crusher enchant is also limited in effect here because again, for 75% of the fight you aren't there.

What you describe would be the best way to help, but it requires an optimal group...if you don't have an optimal group, it becomes near worthless because with lower DPS groups where 4 minis spawn, survival is paramount, otherwise you die on minis 3 & 4, and then all 4 run back to the rest of the group and kill them fast....hence, with lower DPS groups, "selfish" sets are simply better than buff sets for this fight.

I think sometimes people lose sight of the fact that these fights were never designed to be able to skip mechanics with "moar deeps"...originally it was difficult to even have a group with enough DPS skip the atro spawning stage...of course power creep has taken care of that.

One other thing to note here...I don't have access to Yoln/Olo(perfected or not) simply because in all this time I have yet to tank those trials....the reason is stupid really, I don't know the fights, and I would rather not ruin the content for myself by watching videos....but without watching the videos there is no way to learn exactly what I need to do as tank, and so I wait and wait and wait until I have an opportunity to join some learning group for normal versions of those trials who will be willing to give me a quick description of each fight as it pertains to tanking. Its a real problem...anything newer than HoF I am locked out of in that way, unless I want to DPS them instead and I really don't want to(though I may be forced into doing just that)

dcmgti · January 2021

As stated if I was having trouble holding all 4 minis for an extended time in a low dps group I would run Race Against Time or DK wings for snare removal, both cost magicka. This isn't a problem for me personally because my DK and Warden both run about 1700 mag recovery, 1300 mag recov should handle these two skills just fine. That saves your stamina from breaking free.

I would also run stuff that is selfish if in your situation. Stonekeeper/EG for sustain and a 5 pc that self heals, which ends up helping your sustain because you aren't spamming heals. Maybe even change some jewelry to infused potion cooldown, then you could chug pots for easier sustain. Full warning, it gets expensive lol. I have a tank that was specifically built for 4 man content and is a pot chugger every 30 seconds. It's expensive but sustain is nice.

Calm_Fury · January 2021

I just saw that you are using the Stamina morph ot Inner Fire. Don't do that, this will really drain your stamina. Always use the magicka morpth for that skill. That should already help you a lot managing your stam.

Noldornir · January 2021

josiahva wrote: »

The idea behind this thread to begin with was to find methods that allowed a group of any composition to complete it, and "selfish" sets are the best way for this particular fight.

I have been playing around with something else that could be useful in this fight, though I have yet to test it:

Set 1: Grave Guardian
Set 2: Mighty Glacier(this can be swapped out with something more useful, Alkosh, Yoln, Olo, PA, Dragon's Defilement, even Knightmare, all depending on what you are going for) if you run a Warden tank
Monster Set: Lord Warden

I was testing this with a friend in light armor...uptime is great, and his resistances ended up at 32k spell resistance and 26k physical resistance. Essentially the entire group would get tank resistances...which would allow a simple stack and burn by the gate...yes, enemy negates would still be a thing and inconvenient, but easily countered if there is a sorc in the group with negates of their own they hold back.(a sorc tank might come in handy here)

Yes for a safe clear since the tank can't actually buff ppl here he should wear selfish sets

Go Battalion Defender if u want to be able to last all time.

As warden u can have infinite magicka since one of the mini (mage) is just using projectiles on you 90% times.
On DK just block, move away from meteor and use igneous shield every 4-5 hits

If you need more sustain and not more resistance (you should hit the cap already) go with mighty chudan so u can free a slot+save magicka to cast the warding skill. The good thing of lord warden is the buff to others close to you but there will be none here.

go with 2 block cost reduction and 1 magicka regen glyph and u won't need shard or heal for at least 40 mins.