Grandchamp1989 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »The main problem is tanks having access to health-scaling heals. The way that most encounters work in ESO is that the tank absorbs damage while everyone else just avoids getting one-shotted (or really damaged at all). This would work out fine if the tanks then had to rely on healers to sustain their health, but instead they have self-heals that scale off the same stat that lets them avoid getting one-shotted in the first place. This relegates "healers" to one of the following:
1) Being buff-bots for DPS (which is a terrible power fantasy compared to actual healing)
2) Respeccing as DPS
3) Playing in PuGs where their teammates aren't very good at the game (which can get very frustrating very fast, because it also usually comes with very low group DPS that makes clearing content a chore)
Furthermore, the health scaling heals mess up PvP too, because they contribute to the unbelievable survivability of high-health builds. One spec shouldn't have access to high burst resistance (i.e. high health) and high health sustain (i.e. strong self-healing) at the same time (and nevermind the fact that those specs currently also have access to decent damage too, in the form of proc sets).
I main tank and I'll let you know if you remove self heals from Tanks you'll have people who'll seriously start raging at their healer's.
9/10 healers I play with are completely incapable of keeping me alive if I don't have self heals.
Just one BLOCKED hit from an elite add will have you lose 15.000 - 20.000 health.
Sometimes you're holding 3-4 of these fellas and a boss.
If I'm hit with two heavy attacks from elite adds within 1-2 seconds and lose 35-40k health goodluck to the healer to get my back in the fight.
Healer will have to stand ready to babysit their Tanks with burst heals and stacked HOTS.
Leave Tanks lives entirely in the hands of healer's and they can't take their eye of the Tank in endgame to rez or do anything else.
Trust me, any Tank who's doing endgame content will let you know you can't rely on your healer. How do you think we learned to tank with 3dds to begin with? Bad experiences with Healer's. But it isn't entirely their fault. The amount of sheer punishment and incoming damage you take in certain hardmodes, DLC vet with low dps team, and trials within the blink of an eye.. Healer can not keep up if you take away Tanks health based heals.
Tanks are not the problem though. Tanks are not taking the healer's spot - DDs are because their self heals are too strong and healers are more than capable of healing squishies.
Problem is Damage is king and there's next to no healing checks in dungeons.
Some sustained DOT damage on team to force DDs to choose between burning their ressources on damage (and die) or use up their ressource pool on constantly having to self heal (and do abysmal damage as a result) would bring the healer's back really quick.
So the solution to bad healers is to make the healer role useless? Let's also make tanks do 100k DPS, that will solve problems with poor DD, or maybe we should just give medium armor a 99% mitigation passive so we don't have to worry about bad tanks any more.
Additionally, if healers can't do enough healing to keep up with the needs of a tank, that sounds like an argument to buff healers, not an argument to give tanks huge self-heals.
All of that said, part of the reason that you encounter so many poor healers is that the role is so unnecessary. In organized groups, "healers" are speccing as buff bots (mostly for DPS, but also to feed tanks resources), while in PuGs half of the "healers" are fakes because people expect tanks to heal themselves. If ZoS actually made healers useful/necessary, I guarantee you'd see a lot more "healers" actually healing.
People are barely playing Tank as is, if you nerf tanks even more by taking away their heals entirely you might aswell kill the role in PVE.
From your post you make it seem like you don't play endgame Tank.
You don't seem to have a concept of how much incoming damage there is in endgame, the amount of pressure on Tanks is already insane - you don't want to add to it.
Also...
As it stands now as Tank you're entirely at the mercy of your DD's to not be in dungeons 2 hours and hope they do damage.
Imagine if you tank stuff and you don't get healed and can't heal yourself either.
You don't progress due to low damage.
and you die to stuff that isn't your fault because your healer isn't aware.
Nobody will touch that role ever again and can't blame them.
People barely play them endgame right now.
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »The main problem is tanks having access to health-scaling heals. The way that most encounters work in ESO is that the tank absorbs damage while everyone else just avoids getting one-shotted (or really damaged at all). This would work out fine if the tanks then had to rely on healers to sustain their health, but instead they have self-heals that scale off the same stat that lets them avoid getting one-shotted in the first place. This relegates "healers" to one of the following:
1) Being buff-bots for DPS (which is a terrible power fantasy compared to actual healing)
2) Respeccing as DPS
3) Playing in PuGs where their teammates aren't very good at the game (which can get very frustrating very fast, because it also usually comes with very low group DPS that makes clearing content a chore)
Furthermore, the health scaling heals mess up PvP too, because they contribute to the unbelievable survivability of high-health builds. One spec shouldn't have access to high burst resistance (i.e. high health) and high health sustain (i.e. strong self-healing) at the same time (and nevermind the fact that those specs currently also have access to decent damage too, in the form of proc sets).
I main tank and I'll let you know if you remove self heals from Tanks you'll have people who'll seriously start raging at their healer's.
9/10 healers I play with are completely incapable of keeping me alive if I don't have self heals.
Just one BLOCKED hit from an elite add will have you lose 15.000 - 20.000 health.
Sometimes you're holding 3-4 of these fellas and a boss.
If I'm hit with two heavy attacks from elite adds within 1-2 seconds and lose 35-40k health goodluck to the healer to get my back in the fight.
Healer will have to stand ready to babysit their Tanks with burst heals and stacked HOTS.
Leave Tanks lives entirely in the hands of healer's and they can't take their eye of the Tank in endgame to rez or do anything else.
Trust me, any Tank who's doing endgame content will let you know you can't rely on your healer. How do you think we learned to tank with 3dds to begin with? Bad experiences with Healer's. But it isn't entirely their fault. The amount of sheer punishment and incoming damage you take in certain hardmodes, DLC vet with low dps team, and trials within the blink of an eye.. Healer can not keep up if you take away Tanks health based heals.
Tanks are not the problem though. Tanks are not taking the healer's spot - DDs are because their self heals are too strong and healers are more than capable of healing squishies.
Problem is Damage is king and there's next to no healing checks in dungeons.
Some sustained DOT damage on team to force DDs to choose between burning their ressources on damage (and die) or use up their ressource pool on constantly having to self heal (and do abysmal damage as a result) would bring the healer's back really quick.
So the solution to bad healers is to make the healer role useless? Let's also make tanks do 100k DPS, that will solve problems with poor DD, or maybe we should just give medium armor a 99% mitigation passive so we don't have to worry about bad tanks any more.
Additionally, if healers can't do enough healing to keep up with the needs of a tank, that sounds like an argument to buff healers, not an argument to give tanks huge self-heals.
All of that said, part of the reason that you encounter so many poor healers is that the role is so unnecessary. In organized groups, "healers" are speccing as buff bots (mostly for DPS, but also to feed tanks resources), while in PuGs half of the "healers" are fakes because people expect tanks to heal themselves. If ZoS actually made healers useful/necessary, I guarantee you'd see a lot more "healers" actually healing.
People are barely playing Tank as is, if you nerf tanks even more by taking away their heals entirely you might aswell kill the role in PVE.
From your post you make it seem like you don't play endgame Tank.
You don't seem to have a concept of how much incoming damage there is in endgame, the amount of pressure on Tanks is already insane - you don't want to add to it.
Also...
As it stands now as Tank you're entirely at the mercy of your DD's to not be in dungeons 2 hours and hope they do damage.
Imagine if you tank stuff and you don't get healed and can't heal yourself either.
You don't progress due to low damage.
and you die to stuff that isn't your fault because your healer isn't aware.
Nobody will touch that role ever again and can't blame them.
People barely play them endgame right now.
So, in summary, you don't like having to rely on other people. Why are you even playing an MMO?
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »The main problem is tanks having access to health-scaling heals. The way that most encounters work in ESO is that the tank absorbs damage while everyone else just avoids getting one-shotted (or really damaged at all). This would work out fine if the tanks then had to rely on healers to sustain their health, but instead they have self-heals that scale off the same stat that lets them avoid getting one-shotted in the first place. This relegates "healers" to one of the following:
1) Being buff-bots for DPS (which is a terrible power fantasy compared to actual healing)
2) Respeccing as DPS
3) Playing in PuGs where their teammates aren't very good at the game (which can get very frustrating very fast, because it also usually comes with very low group DPS that makes clearing content a chore)
Furthermore, the health scaling heals mess up PvP too, because they contribute to the unbelievable survivability of high-health builds. One spec shouldn't have access to high burst resistance (i.e. high health) and high health sustain (i.e. strong self-healing) at the same time (and nevermind the fact that those specs currently also have access to decent damage too, in the form of proc sets).
I main tank and I'll let you know if you remove self heals from Tanks you'll have people who'll seriously start raging at their healer's.
9/10 healers I play with are completely incapable of keeping me alive if I don't have self heals.
Just one BLOCKED hit from an elite add will have you lose 15.000 - 20.000 health.
Sometimes you're holding 3-4 of these fellas and a boss.
If I'm hit with two heavy attacks from elite adds within 1-2 seconds and lose 35-40k health goodluck to the healer to get my back in the fight.
Healer will have to stand ready to babysit their Tanks with burst heals and stacked HOTS.
Leave Tanks lives entirely in the hands of healer's and they can't take their eye of the Tank in endgame to rez or do anything else.
Trust me, any Tank who's doing endgame content will let you know you can't rely on your healer. How do you think we learned to tank with 3dds to begin with? Bad experiences with Healer's. But it isn't entirely their fault. The amount of sheer punishment and incoming damage you take in certain hardmodes, DLC vet with low dps team, and trials within the blink of an eye.. Healer can not keep up if you take away Tanks health based heals.
Tanks are not the problem though. Tanks are not taking the healer's spot - DDs are because their self heals are too strong and healers are more than capable of healing squishies.
Problem is Damage is king and there's next to no healing checks in dungeons.
Some sustained DOT damage on team to force DDs to choose between burning their ressources on damage (and die) or use up their ressource pool on constantly having to self heal (and do abysmal damage as a result) would bring the healer's back really quick.
So the solution to bad healers is to make the healer role useless? Let's also make tanks do 100k DPS, that will solve problems with poor DD, or maybe we should just give medium armor a 99% mitigation passive so we don't have to worry about bad tanks any more.
Additionally, if healers can't do enough healing to keep up with the needs of a tank, that sounds like an argument to buff healers, not an argument to give tanks huge self-heals.
All of that said, part of the reason that you encounter so many poor healers is that the role is so unnecessary. In organized groups, "healers" are speccing as buff bots (mostly for DPS, but also to feed tanks resources), while in PuGs half of the "healers" are fakes because people expect tanks to heal themselves. If ZoS actually made healers useful/necessary, I guarantee you'd see a lot more "healers" actually healing.
People are barely playing Tank as is, if you nerf tanks even more by taking away their heals entirely you might aswell kill the role in PVE.
From your post you make it seem like you don't play endgame Tank.
You don't seem to have a concept of how much incoming damage there is in endgame, the amount of pressure on Tanks is already insane - you don't want to add to it.
Also...
As it stands now as Tank you're entirely at the mercy of your DD's to not be in dungeons 2 hours and hope they do damage.
Imagine if you tank stuff and you don't get healed and can't heal yourself either.
You don't progress due to low damage.
and you die to stuff that isn't your fault because your healer isn't aware.
Nobody will touch that role ever again and can't blame them.
People barely play them endgame right now.
So, in summary, you don't like having to rely on other people. Why are you even playing an MMO?
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »The main problem is tanks having access to health-scaling heals. The way that most encounters work in ESO is that the tank absorbs damage while everyone else just avoids getting one-shotted (or really damaged at all). This would work out fine if the tanks then had to rely on healers to sustain their health, but instead they have self-heals that scale off the same stat that lets them avoid getting one-shotted in the first place. This relegates "healers" to one of the following:
1) Being buff-bots for DPS (which is a terrible power fantasy compared to actual healing)
2) Respeccing as DPS
3) Playing in PuGs where their teammates aren't very good at the game (which can get very frustrating very fast, because it also usually comes with very low group DPS that makes clearing content a chore)
Furthermore, the health scaling heals mess up PvP too, because they contribute to the unbelievable survivability of high-health builds. One spec shouldn't have access to high burst resistance (i.e. high health) and high health sustain (i.e. strong self-healing) at the same time (and nevermind the fact that those specs currently also have access to decent damage too, in the form of proc sets).
I main tank and I'll let you know if you remove self heals from Tanks you'll have people who'll seriously start raging at their healer's.
9/10 healers I play with are completely incapable of keeping me alive if I don't have self heals.
Just one BLOCKED hit from an elite add will have you lose 15.000 - 20.000 health.
Sometimes you're holding 3-4 of these fellas and a boss.
If I'm hit with two heavy attacks from elite adds within 1-2 seconds and lose 35-40k health goodluck to the healer to get my back in the fight.
Healer will have to stand ready to babysit their Tanks with burst heals and stacked HOTS.
Leave Tanks lives entirely in the hands of healer's and they can't take their eye of the Tank in endgame to rez or do anything else.
Trust me, any Tank who's doing endgame content will let you know you can't rely on your healer. How do you think we learned to tank with 3dds to begin with? Bad experiences with Healer's. But it isn't entirely their fault. The amount of sheer punishment and incoming damage you take in certain hardmodes, DLC vet with low dps team, and trials within the blink of an eye.. Healer can not keep up if you take away Tanks health based heals.
Tanks are not the problem though. Tanks are not taking the healer's spot - DDs are because their self heals are too strong and healers are more than capable of healing squishies.
Problem is Damage is king and there's next to no healing checks in dungeons.
Some sustained DOT damage on team to force DDs to choose between burning their ressources on damage (and die) or use up their ressource pool on constantly having to self heal (and do abysmal damage as a result) would bring the healer's back really quick.
So the solution to bad healers is to make the healer role useless? Let's also make tanks do 100k DPS, that will solve problems with poor DD, or maybe we should just give medium armor a 99% mitigation passive so we don't have to worry about bad tanks any more.
Additionally, if healers can't do enough healing to keep up with the needs of a tank, that sounds like an argument to buff healers, not an argument to give tanks huge self-heals.
All of that said, part of the reason that you encounter so many poor healers is that the role is so unnecessary. In organized groups, "healers" are speccing as buff bots (mostly for DPS, but also to feed tanks resources), while in PuGs half of the "healers" are fakes because people expect tanks to heal themselves. If ZoS actually made healers useful/necessary, I guarantee you'd see a lot more "healers" actually healing.
People are barely playing Tank as is, if you nerf tanks even more by taking away their heals entirely you might aswell kill the role in PVE.
From your post you make it seem like you don't play endgame Tank.
You don't seem to have a concept of how much incoming damage there is in endgame, the amount of pressure on Tanks is already insane - you don't want to add to it.
Also...
As it stands now as Tank you're entirely at the mercy of your DD's to not be in dungeons 2 hours and hope they do damage.
Imagine if you tank stuff and you don't get healed and can't heal yourself either.
You don't progress due to low damage.
and you die to stuff that isn't your fault because your healer isn't aware.
Nobody will touch that role ever again and can't blame them.
People barely play them endgame right now.
So, in summary, you don't like having to rely on other people. Why are you even playing an MMO?
It is not relying, it is being overly dependant. There are phases in which u take massive damage in the hard content, of twice your health over 3 seconds, when healer and tank need to both spam heals for the tank to survive. Negating tanks of self heals will do one of the two things, either dumb down the role to the point they need only minor heals to survive, or to be miserable entities that are dependent on a good healer to survive. As if we don't lack tanks as it is.
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »The main problem is tanks having access to health-scaling heals. The way that most encounters work in ESO is that the tank absorbs damage while everyone else just avoids getting one-shotted (or really damaged at all). This would work out fine if the tanks then had to rely on healers to sustain their health, but instead they have self-heals that scale off the same stat that lets them avoid getting one-shotted in the first place. This relegates "healers" to one of the following:
1) Being buff-bots for DPS (which is a terrible power fantasy compared to actual healing)
2) Respeccing as DPS
3) Playing in PuGs where their teammates aren't very good at the game (which can get very frustrating very fast, because it also usually comes with very low group DPS that makes clearing content a chore)
Furthermore, the health scaling heals mess up PvP too, because they contribute to the unbelievable survivability of high-health builds. One spec shouldn't have access to high burst resistance (i.e. high health) and high health sustain (i.e. strong self-healing) at the same time (and nevermind the fact that those specs currently also have access to decent damage too, in the form of proc sets).
I main tank and I'll let you know if you remove self heals from Tanks you'll have people who'll seriously start raging at their healer's.
9/10 healers I play with are completely incapable of keeping me alive if I don't have self heals.
Just one BLOCKED hit from an elite add will have you lose 15.000 - 20.000 health.
Sometimes you're holding 3-4 of these fellas and a boss.
If I'm hit with two heavy attacks from elite adds within 1-2 seconds and lose 35-40k health goodluck to the healer to get my back in the fight.
Healer will have to stand ready to babysit their Tanks with burst heals and stacked HOTS.
Leave Tanks lives entirely in the hands of healer's and they can't take their eye of the Tank in endgame to rez or do anything else.
Trust me, any Tank who's doing endgame content will let you know you can't rely on your healer. How do you think we learned to tank with 3dds to begin with? Bad experiences with Healer's. But it isn't entirely their fault. The amount of sheer punishment and incoming damage you take in certain hardmodes, DLC vet with low dps team, and trials within the blink of an eye.. Healer can not keep up if you take away Tanks health based heals.
Tanks are not the problem though. Tanks are not taking the healer's spot - DDs are because their self heals are too strong and healers are more than capable of healing squishies.
Problem is Damage is king and there's next to no healing checks in dungeons.
Some sustained DOT damage on team to force DDs to choose between burning their ressources on damage (and die) or use up their ressource pool on constantly having to self heal (and do abysmal damage as a result) would bring the healer's back really quick.
So the solution to bad healers is to make the healer role useless? Let's also make tanks do 100k DPS, that will solve problems with poor DD, or maybe we should just give medium armor a 99% mitigation passive so we don't have to worry about bad tanks any more.
Additionally, if healers can't do enough healing to keep up with the needs of a tank, that sounds like an argument to buff healers, not an argument to give tanks huge self-heals.
All of that said, part of the reason that you encounter so many poor healers is that the role is so unnecessary. In organized groups, "healers" are speccing as buff bots (mostly for DPS, but also to feed tanks resources), while in PuGs half of the "healers" are fakes because people expect tanks to heal themselves. If ZoS actually made healers useful/necessary, I guarantee you'd see a lot more "healers" actually healing.
People are barely playing Tank as is, if you nerf tanks even more by taking away their heals entirely you might aswell kill the role in PVE.
From your post you make it seem like you don't play endgame Tank.
You don't seem to have a concept of how much incoming damage there is in endgame, the amount of pressure on Tanks is already insane - you don't want to add to it.
Also...
As it stands now as Tank you're entirely at the mercy of your DD's to not be in dungeons 2 hours and hope they do damage.
Imagine if you tank stuff and you don't get healed and can't heal yourself either.
You don't progress due to low damage.
and you die to stuff that isn't your fault because your healer isn't aware.
Nobody will touch that role ever again and can't blame them.
People barely play them endgame right now.
So, in summary, you don't like having to rely on other people. Why are you even playing an MMO?
It is not relying, it is being overly dependant. There are phases in which u take massive damage in the hard content, of twice your health over 3 seconds, when healer and tank need to both spam heals for the tank to survive. Negating tanks of self heals will do one of the two things, either dumb down the role to the point they need only minor heals to survive, or to be miserable entities that are dependent on a good healer to survive. As if we don't lack tanks as it is.
The ring of pale order was a HUGE mistake. I am actually bewildered at how it got past the brain storm stage in development to being full on coded into the game.
What the ring SHOULD do is attach its heal to the ZOS chosen spammable in each classes toolkit. This way every class gets the heal they want from Templars jabs and healers can maintain healing in a raid/dungeon with no issues.
redspecter23 wrote: »If the members of your party don't want you because of the ring, they are ignoring the powerful buffs and debuffs a healer can bring to the party.