I've never felt more irrelevant as a HEALER in ESO...

mairwen85

zvavi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

The ring of pale order was a HUGE mistake. I am actually bewildered at how it got past the brain storm stage in development to being full on coded into the game.

What the ring SHOULD do is attach its heal to the ZOS chosen spammable in each classes toolkit. This way every class gets the heal they want from Templars jabs and healers can maintain healing in a raid/dungeon with no issues.

Wait what not all stam dds have a spammable, sorcs don't either.

Crystal Frags is considered the Sorc spammable now.
I don't play stamina characters so I am not aware of stamina in regards to spammables.

I think they all have one now, stam or mag. Just debatable how good each spammable is. Whip, Stone Giant, Puncturing Sweep, Biting Jabs, Crystal Frags, Crystal Weapon, Swallow Soul, Surprise Attack, Cliff Racer, Cutting Dive, Venom Skull and Ricochet Skull.

Actually you are right. Except the frags part I don't buy that.
[snip]

Spammable = cheap, instant cast, repeatable skill with reasonable damage. Frags, I agree with you, is not that.

Dream96

Imo the problem is that thay have to balance solo content like vma and group content and even pvp. And to complete solo content you need some sort of healing and shielding, so you can build your character around very good dps and good self healing too. As a main healer that play each class at healer, I hope they will make healers more relevant for the future.

Starlight_Whisper

Husan wrote: »

In my experience 3 DDs means less trouble with sustain because stuff actually dies faster than I can deplete all my resources. It means easier runs because stuff dies faster and less mechanics happen. It means safer runs because stuff dies faster and there is less opportunity to die. Any trifecta achievement (no death, speed run, hard mode) I've done in this game has been done with 3DD+tank. They have done healers dirty in this game.

This is the real problem. The fact is you can skip mechics if dps us to high 🔥

KaGaOri

zvavi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

The ring of pale order was a HUGE mistake. I am actually bewildered at how it got past the brain storm stage in development to being full on coded into the game.

What the ring SHOULD do is attach its heal to the ZOS chosen spammable in each classes toolkit. This way every class gets the heal they want from Templars jabs and healers can maintain healing in a raid/dungeon with no issues.

Wait what not all stam dds have a spammable, sorcs don't either.

Crystal Frags is considered the Sorc spammable now.
I don't play stamina characters so I am not aware of stamina in regards to spammables.

I think they all have one now, stam or mag. Just debatable how good each spammable is. Whip, Stone Giant, Puncturing Sweep, Biting Jabs, Crystal Frags, Crystal Weapon, Swallow Soul, Surprise Attack, Cliff Racer, Cutting Dive, Venom Skull and Ricochet Skull.

Actually you are right. Except the frags part I don't buy that.
[snip]

Using unstable wall of storms as spamable on magsorc. Tried frags, but they felt too clunky.

If everyone has their spamables nowadays, how about executes? Created magden recently and either I'm blind, or there isn't any. Not big deal, since it's supposed to be a healer (yes, I've created a healer, call me crazy if you want), but it just feels weird not to have one available if ever needed.

zvavi

KaGaOri wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

The ring of pale order was a HUGE mistake. I am actually bewildered at how it got past the brain storm stage in development to being full on coded into the game.

What the ring SHOULD do is attach its heal to the ZOS chosen spammable in each classes toolkit. This way every class gets the heal they want from Templars jabs and healers can maintain healing in a raid/dungeon with no issues.

Wait what not all stam dds have a spammable, sorcs don't either.

Crystal Frags is considered the Sorc spammable now.
I don't play stamina characters so I am not aware of stamina in regards to spammables.

I think they all have one now, stam or mag. Just debatable how good each spammable is. Whip, Stone Giant, Puncturing Sweep, Biting Jabs, Crystal Frags, Crystal Weapon, Swallow Soul, Surprise Attack, Cliff Racer, Cutting Dive, Venom Skull and Ricochet Skull.

Actually you are right. Except the frags part I don't buy that.
[snip]

Using unstable wall of storms as spamable on magsorc. Tried frags, but they felt too clunky.

If everyone has their spamables nowadays, how about executes? Created magden recently and either I'm blind, or there isn't any. Not big deal, since it's supposed to be a healer (yes, I've created a healer, call me crazy if you want), but it just feels weird not to have one available if ever needed.

Holy mother of god how do you sustain that. Also the bear is an execute.

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Husan wrote: »

In my experience 3 DDs means less trouble with sustain because stuff actually dies faster than I can deplete all my resources. It means easier runs because stuff dies faster and less mechanics happen. It means safer runs because stuff dies faster and there is less opportunity to die. Any trifecta achievement (no death, speed run, hard mode) I've done in this game has been done with 3DD+tank. They have done healers dirty in this game.

This is the real problem. The fact is you can skip mechics if dps us to high 🔥

hmm it feels like it is the giant in icereach, don't take it as an example, he takes extra damage when enraged.

Galarthor

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Hopefully a coming update to the Champion system will address this.

It can't. The current state where healers and to some degree tanks are useless is a direct result of ZOS' philosophy of "Raising the floor and lowering the ceiling" - aka dumbing down the game. They want new players to be able to do pretty much all content right off the bat. Requiring coordinated and / or skillful gameplay is the opposite of that. That's also the reasons why proc sets are so powerful, as they allow players pull decent dps and hps numbers with minimal effort and understanding of the game.

NoMoreChillies

self healing is out of control

UGotBenched91

I guess my question what is it that is making healers less needed?

Personally I think this games dungeon/bosses focuses too much on one shot mechanics instead of enemies just doing more damage. Seems healers would be more needed.

Anotherone773

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

I guess my question what is it that is making healers less needed?

Personally I think this games dungeon/bosses focuses too much on one shot mechanics instead of enemies just doing more damage. Seems healers would be more needed.

In other games ive played, the boss mechanics have not been raid style mechanics with enrage timers and such but each boss requires unique handling to keep them manageable and often by a certain class. In Eso they think making things more challenging means more HP more raid mechanics and insane environmental damage between trash groups.

Honestly id rather have elite trash and decent bosses than all the trash and dps race so we can just ignore mechanics. What makes boss fights unique and interesting is they have mechanics. And we have a lot more here, but we just DPS/heal through them so what is the point?

Tsar_Gekkou

Austacker wrote: »

Healers, the red headed step child of this game.

We're 'needed' for Trial content and.... that's it?

I've played a Breton Templar Healer main since the game launched on Xbox and I've NEVER felt more useless and unwanted in a MMO before.

Don't get me wrong, Healing in MMOs has always been the unappreciated role to play but this game has made healing in all but the top most tier of content utterly useless.

My healer main is over 1000 CP, 100+ Days played and I'm thinking about just coughing up for a respec and going Tank or DPS.

It's almost impossible to enjoy ESO as a healer anymore. The game community laughs at you and tells you you're not needed, the game developers ensure through the game design mechanics you're worthless 99% of the time.

Ring of the Pale order was the biggest middle finger to my class in the game to date.

I give up.

The average dungeon I get into has at least 1 idiot who will melt into a puddle of urine and dirt if I don't keep them healed, so I don't get where all the "we don't need healer" stuff comes from. Some people on the forums say it, but in game people are squishy little rodents that probably don't even set their cp right for the content and probably just dump 100 points into whatever sounds cool. But i'm on Xbox NA so people don't have addons that scream at them to stop standing in stupid so that might play into it. I've only actually seen 1 guy in a dungeon using the pale order ring and he was dying because he wasn't doing enough damage to keep himself healed, like the average dd you meet in dungeons.

Scardan

Austacker wrote: »

Healers, the red headed step child of this game.

We're 'needed' for Trial content and.... that's it?

I've played a Breton Templar Healer main since the game launched on Xbox and I've NEVER felt more useless and unwanted in a MMO before.

Don't get me wrong, Healing in MMOs has always been the unappreciated role to play but this game has made healing in all but the top most tier of content utterly useless.

My healer main is over 1000 CP, 100+ Days played and I'm thinking about just coughing up for a respec and going Tank or DPS.

It's almost impossible to enjoy ESO as a healer anymore. The game community laughs at you and tells you you're not needed, the game developers ensure through the game design mechanics you're worthless 99% of the time.

Ring of the Pale order was the biggest middle finger to my class in the game to date.

I give up.

In my opinion, you are exaggerating a little bit. That phrase about the ring, I like it . You can also say that the vampire subclass is also a middle finger. Or that solo builds are middle finger too. In any MMORPG, even in the old ones, where the classes are so highly specialized that non-healers can only heal themselves with health potions, healer will still only be needed mainly for raids.

mobicera

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

Austacker wrote: »

Healers, the red headed step child of this game.

We're 'needed' for Trial content and.... that's it?

I've played a Breton Templar Healer main since the game launched on Xbox and I've NEVER felt more useless and unwanted in a MMO before.

Don't get me wrong, Healing in MMOs has always been the unappreciated role to play but this game has made healing in all but the top most tier of content utterly useless.

My healer main is over 1000 CP, 100+ Days played and I'm thinking about just coughing up for a respec and going Tank or DPS.

It's almost impossible to enjoy ESO as a healer anymore. The game community laughs at you and tells you you're not needed, the game developers ensure through the game design mechanics you're worthless 99% of the time.

Ring of the Pale order was the biggest middle finger to my class in the game to date.

I give up.

The average dungeon I get into has at least 1 idiot who will melt into a puddle of urine and dirt if I don't keep them healed, so I don't get where all the "we don't need healer" stuff comes from. Some people on the forums say it, but in game people are squishy little rodents that probably don't even set their cp right for the content and probably just dump 100 points into whatever sounds cool. But i'm on Xbox NA so people don't have addons that scream at them to stop standing in stupid so that might play into it. I've only actually seen 1 guy in a dungeon using the pale order ring and he was dying because he wasn't doing enough damage to keep himself healed, like the average dd you meet in dungeons.

The "we don't need a healer stuff" comes from preformed groups, not typically pugs from the group finder.
I agree that quite a bit of group finder pugs require healers, however that is simply because they don't pay attention or aren't very good at avoiding damage.
The better your situational awareness and damage the less you require a healer in 4 person content, at some level it may even become detrimental to run one.
There are however a few exceptions but its typically in vet dlc hm with heal check type mechanics, ie. Vfvhm, vmgfhm, vsghm.

BXR_Lonestar

Healers are definitely needed still in high-end content. My core group was working our way through vet Depths of Malatar the other night and got bogged down on the Dark Orb fight of all places and we couldn't figure out why we were having so much problems, since we basically walked through the fight the first time we tried it, but before we gave up for the night, we tried just balling up on me (the healer), and even with the DPS just half-donkeying the fight by just light/heavy attacking, we nearly finished the fight because I was able to heal them through everything and keep them buffed way more effectively when stayed tightly stacked like that.

Sure, DPS right now is off the charts and that makes easier content so trivial that a healer isn't necessary, but in high-end content, having a healer is a good safety valve. For those high-end fights where a healer is less useful, its honestly because of the overuse of OHK mechanics which makes having a dedicated healer useless and having a third, dedicated DPS more appealing because you have more cumulative DPS to try to beat OHK mechanics.

So the solution to make healers relevant? Just stop using so many OHK mechanics and let good healers carry groups through fights with their righteous healing and timely shielding.

mobicera

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Healers are definitely needed still in high-end content. My core group was working our way through vet Depths of Malatar the other night and got bogged down on the Dark Orb fight of all places and we couldn't figure out why we were having so much problems, since we basically walked through the fight the first time we tried it, but before we gave up for the night, we tried just balling up on me (the healer), and even with the DPS just half-donkeying the fight by just light/heavy attacking, we nearly finished the fight because I was able to heal them through everything and keep them buffed way more effectively when stayed tightly stacked like that.

Sure, DPS right now is off the charts and that makes easier content so trivial that a healer isn't necessary, but in high-end content, having a healer is a good safety valve. For those high-end fights where a healer is less useful, its honestly because of the overuse of OHK mechanics which makes having a dedicated healer useless and having a third, dedicated DPS more appealing because you have more cumulative DPS to try to beat OHK mechanics.

So the solution to make healers relevant? Just stop using so many OHK mechanics and let good healers carry groups through fights with their righteous healing and timely shielding.

The problem you were having wasn't lack of healing.
If you don't have a healer or overwhelming dps play mechanics.
The aurons and orbs that empower them spawn on health check points on the center orb and they are quite close to each other.
Safe way 3 dps
Have dps slowly burn center orb the second the auron spawns stop all dps on center orb and kill the aurons, then push the center orb to the empowering orb and burn down that orb.
Repeat, co-ordinate ultimate so you can ulti each auron wave.
Fast way overwhelming dps, 3dps 1tank.
Riskier
Burn center orb to both auron and empowering orb, stack aurons on the orb coordinate ulti drops for aurons and orbs to nuke each wave asap.
Repeat.
If you try fast way without the dps and tank to do it, you will just likely wipe.

the1andonlyskwex

The main problem is tanks having access to health-scaling heals. The way that most encounters work in ESO is that the tank absorbs damage while everyone else just avoids getting one-shotted (or really damaged at all). This would work out fine if the tanks then had to rely on healers to sustain their health, but instead they have self-heals that scale off the same stat that lets them avoid getting one-shotted in the first place. This relegates "healers" to one of the following:
1) Being buff-bots for DPS (which is a terrible power fantasy compared to actual healing)
2) Respeccing as DPS
3) Playing in PuGs where their teammates aren't very good at the game (which can get very frustrating very fast, because it also usually comes with very low group DPS that makes clearing content a chore)

Furthermore, the health scaling heals mess up PvP too, because they contribute to the unbelievable survivability of high-health builds. One spec shouldn't have access to high burst resistance (i.e. high health) and high health sustain (i.e. strong self-healing) at the same time (and nevermind the fact that those specs currently also have access to decent damage too, in the form of proc sets).

Eiregirl

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Hopefully a coming update to the Champion system will address this.

At the moment it is only hope because to my knowledge nobody knows what those changes will be or what effect the changes will have on the game.

I would not put much hope in it fixing this.

Girl_Number8

This is an over exaggeration from the OP

•Healers, real healers are very much needed in Vet Dungeons. Especially in DLC dungeons for a large part of the eso gaming population. Puglies tend to eat it, even on normal dungeons.

In all of PvP a pocket healer or small scale healer is invaluable and when coordinated they can really turn the tide.

•The Ring of the Pale Order is great for solo content, including arenas and for groups of players focused on certain achievements. And high dps is earned it is not something that is very commonly found when grouping up with others. That is not a problem that should be punished because it is one of the few ways that players progress in a horizontal game. It is something that is an accomplishment.

If you feel irrelevant, maybe you’re just bored or not engaging in the proper content. With the new influx of inexperienced players healers are most certainly needed.

Wolfpaw

Galarthor wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Hopefully a coming update to the Champion system will address this.

It can't. The current state where healers and to some degree tanks are useless is a direct result of ZOS' philosophy of "Raising the floor and lowering the ceiling" - aka dumbing down the game. They want new players to be able to do pretty much all content right off the bat. Requiring coordinated and / or skillful gameplay is the opposite of that. That's also the reasons why proc sets are so powerful, as they allow players pull decent dps and hps numbers with minimal effort and understanding of the game.

ZOS intent idk? It changes every update, & I don't expect the current meta to stay.

Too many low hanging fruit in CP atm. Deepening the CP trees, & moving all the great CP (block, dodge, reduced damage, healing, damage done, etc...to the top of trees would be a good start.

Lowering heal gains through weapon/spell damage/health, & separating crit damage from crit heals would be a good start.

My2c~

majulook

While in a group, they need to remove all healing other that by a player in the Healing role.

Now that would make healers relevant.

Vevvev

majulook wrote: »

While in a group, they need to remove all healing other that by a player in the Healing role.

Now that would make healers relevant.

That'd work in PVE on the group finder, but everywhere else every single person would just check themselves as healers in group and completely get around that issue completely.

KaGaOri

zvavi wrote: »

Holy mother of god how do you sustain that. Also the bear is an execute.

40K magicka before buffs, buff food with mag regen, magpots, occasional heavy attack and fact everything is usually dead before I run out . Good thing is, that even if magicka does run out, enemy is still taking damage from it (+ undaunted orb + boundless storm + lightning flood + Ilambris). Won't pretend it's perfect build, but it worked fine so far from (base game) vet dungeons to soloing world bosses and normal dungeons.

Thanks about the bear info. Haven't examined it too closely before since it's ultimate (and annoyance to have around). Gues I'll level it up to have on standby, just in case. The way healing works in ESO might have to be able to go from healing to damage easily, or run hybrid between healer and dd, unless there are changes to the game. Would prefer being able to run full healer, though. Already have one dd, want to try out support role and not really tank material yet (if ever).

Raideen

Eedat wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

The ring of pale order was a HUGE mistake. I am actually bewildered at how it got past the brain storm stage in development to being full on coded into the game.

What the ring SHOULD do is attach its heal to the ZOS chosen spammable in each classes toolkit. This way every class gets the heal they want from Templars jabs and healers can maintain healing in a raid/dungeon with no issues.

A lot of Mag classes dont get an actual spammable though. Mag is in a sorry state where a lot of them have to resort to ele weapon as their spammable because Mag sustain is straight trash right now.

Think big picture my friend, mag have heals which means little need for the ring.

The Ring of Pale Order was a bad terrible design decision. It creates more problems than solutions.

Vlad9425

I’ll tell you what else makes u feel irrelevant as a healer, seeing someone from your alliance who isn’t in your group in cyrodiil dying and not being able to heal them...

Wolfpaw

Vlad9425 wrote: »

I’ll tell you what else makes u feel irrelevant as a healer, seeing someone from your alliance who isn’t in your group in cyrodiil dying and not being able to heal them...

That, & guild members you're not grouped with....500 person guild!!...12m group pvp.

Grandchamp1989

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The main problem is tanks having access to health-scaling heals. The way that most encounters work in ESO is that the tank absorbs damage while everyone else just avoids getting one-shotted (or really damaged at all). This would work out fine if the tanks then had to rely on healers to sustain their health, but instead they have self-heals that scale off the same stat that lets them avoid getting one-shotted in the first place. This relegates "healers" to one of the following:
1) Being buff-bots for DPS (which is a terrible power fantasy compared to actual healing)
2) Respeccing as DPS
3) Playing in PuGs where their teammates aren't very good at the game (which can get very frustrating very fast, because it also usually comes with very low group DPS that makes clearing content a chore)

Furthermore, the health scaling heals mess up PvP too, because they contribute to the unbelievable survivability of high-health builds. One spec shouldn't have access to high burst resistance (i.e. high health) and high health sustain (i.e. strong self-healing) at the same time (and nevermind the fact that those specs currently also have access to decent damage too, in the form of proc sets).

I main tank and I'll let you know if you remove self heals from Tanks you'll have people who'll seriously start raging at their healer's.

9/10 healers I play with are completely incapable of keeping me alive if I don't have self heals.

Just one BLOCKED hit from an elite add will have you lose 15.000 - 20.000 health.

Sometimes you're holding 3-4 of these fellas and a boss.

If I'm hit with two heavy attacks from elite adds within 1-2 seconds, and lose 35-40k health, goodluck to the healer to get me back in the fight if I don't have self healing.

Healer would literally have to stand ready to babysit their Tanks with burst heals and stacked HOTS.
If you leave your Tank's life entirely in the hands of a healer's, then they can't take their eye off of the Tank in endgame content - even to rez or do anything else.

Trust me, any Tank who's doing endgame content will let you know you can't rely on your healer. How do you think we learned to tank with 3dds to begin with? Bad experiences with Healer's. But it isn't entirely their fault. The amount of sheer punishment and incoming damage you take in certain hardmodes, DLC vet with low dps team, and trials within the blink of an eye.. Healer can not keep up if you take away Tank's health based heals.

Tanks are not the problem though. Tanks are not taking the healer's spot - DDs are because their self heals are too strong and healers are more than capable of healing squishies.

Problem is Damage is king and there's next to no healing checks in dungeons.

Some sustained DOT damage on teams in dungeon's would force DDs to choose between burning their ressources on damage (and die) or use up their ressource pool on constantly having to self heal (and do abysmal damage as a result).
This would bring the healer's back really quick.

Lintashi

Agree. Healers get worst deal in almost every situation. When vampire skilline was reworked, healers were not taken into consideration. When cyrodiil changes came, same thing. Imagine, if damage dealers could deal damage only if they are in group. No group, no damage to other players. So why it is fine for healers? When introducing new content, there are way less healer relevant sets and mechanics, than sets for damage dealers. And yes, Pale order as final slap in the face. In my guild, more and more people prefer 3dd and tank, because why not?

the1andonlyskwex

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The main problem is tanks having access to health-scaling heals. The way that most encounters work in ESO is that the tank absorbs damage while everyone else just avoids getting one-shotted (or really damaged at all). This would work out fine if the tanks then had to rely on healers to sustain their health, but instead they have self-heals that scale off the same stat that lets them avoid getting one-shotted in the first place. This relegates "healers" to one of the following:
1) Being buff-bots for DPS (which is a terrible power fantasy compared to actual healing)
2) Respeccing as DPS
3) Playing in PuGs where their teammates aren't very good at the game (which can get very frustrating very fast, because it also usually comes with very low group DPS that makes clearing content a chore)

Furthermore, the health scaling heals mess up PvP too, because they contribute to the unbelievable survivability of high-health builds. One spec shouldn't have access to high burst resistance (i.e. high health) and high health sustain (i.e. strong self-healing) at the same time (and nevermind the fact that those specs currently also have access to decent damage too, in the form of proc sets).

I main tank and I'll let you know if you remove self heals from Tanks you'll have people who'll seriously start raging at their healer's.

9/10 healers I play with are completely incapable of keeping me alive if I don't have self heals.

Just one BLOCKED hit from an elite add will have you lose 15.000 - 20.000 health.

Sometimes you're holding 3-4 of these fellas and a boss.

If I'm hit with two heavy attacks from elite adds within 1-2 seconds and lose 35-40k health goodluck to the healer to get my back in the fight.

Healer will have to stand ready to babysit their Tanks with burst heals and stacked HOTS.
Leave Tanks lives entirely in the hands of healer's and they can't take their eye of the Tank in endgame to rez or do anything else.

Trust me, any Tank who's doing endgame content will let you know you can't rely on your healer. How do you think we learned to tank with 3dds to begin with? Bad experiences with Healer's. But it isn't entirely their fault. The amount of sheer punishment and incoming damage you take in certain hardmodes, DLC vet with low dps team, and trials within the blink of an eye.. Healer can not keep up if you take away Tanks health based heals.

Tanks are not the problem though. Tanks are not taking the healer's spot - DDs are because their self heals are too strong and healers are more than capable of healing squishies.

Problem is Damage is king and there's next to no healing checks in dungeons.

Some sustained DOT damage on team to force DDs to choose between burning their ressources on damage (and die) or use up their ressource pool on constantly having to self heal (and do abysmal damage as a result) would bring the healer's back really quick.

So the solution to bad healers is to make the healer role useless? Let's also make tanks do 100k DPS, that will solve problems with poor DD, or maybe we should just give medium armor a 99% mitigation passive so we don't have to worry about bad tanks any more.

Additionally, if healers can't do enough healing to keep up with the needs of a tank, that sounds like an argument to buff healers, not an argument to give tanks huge self-heals.

All of that said, part of the reason that you encounter so many poor healers is that the role is so unnecessary. In organized groups, "healers" are speccing as buff bots (mostly for DPS, but also to feed tanks resources), while in PuGs half of the "healers" are fakes because people expect tanks to heal themselves. If ZoS actually made healers useful/necessary, I guarantee you'd see a lot more "healers" actually healing.

Jaimeh

Healers are needed for the vast majority of group content for the vast majority of players: if you queue for a vet DLC dungeon in the finder, it's immediately obvious. Of course there's groups with 3 DDs/tank that fair great, but that's the outlier, and in those cases, the tank carries part of the healer role, while the DDs take some debuff or support responsibility as well (not to mention they have to do good damage). The majority of players are not this kind of DDs and tanks. And of course, healers are very much needed for vet trials. There's a lot of one-shot mechanics, where healing doesn't matter if the DDs are not careful, plus ,more damage can make everything less punishing, but that's not the reason why healers are not as desirable--it's because most healers are not versatile and good at their role. Pure healing is only one aspect (and if DDs and tanks are doing their own roles well, then they won't need much of it anyway), it's the support by means of buff/debuff that are important, and in this most healers are lacking. No wall of elements for consussion, no individual class skills, like PoTL/swarm/ambush etc., for debuff, no good uptime of synergies or buffs... while DDs are all about their trackers (at least on PC), you don't really see that for healers, because it's a role that generally promotes subpar performance by virtue of not being immediately obvious if you are not doing well, and thus not encourages improvement. If you are a DD, it's very obvious if you know how to do damage, on the other hand, and people will let you know right away. I think that's why some groups would rather have the extra DD, however, personally I would take a (good) healer over a DD for most content--but imo, good healers are hard to come by.

the1andonlyskwex

The uselessness of healers (and also tanks, to a degree) is also a big part of the reason why we get so many people queueing as fake tanks and healers. There would be a lot fewer fakes if queueing as the wrong role resulted in failed dungeons.

Grandchamp1989

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The main problem is tanks having access to health-scaling heals. The way that most encounters work in ESO is that the tank absorbs damage while everyone else just avoids getting one-shotted (or really damaged at all). This would work out fine if the tanks then had to rely on healers to sustain their health, but instead they have self-heals that scale off the same stat that lets them avoid getting one-shotted in the first place. This relegates "healers" to one of the following:
1) Being buff-bots for DPS (which is a terrible power fantasy compared to actual healing)
2) Respeccing as DPS
3) Playing in PuGs where their teammates aren't very good at the game (which can get very frustrating very fast, because it also usually comes with very low group DPS that makes clearing content a chore)

Furthermore, the health scaling heals mess up PvP too, because they contribute to the unbelievable survivability of high-health builds. One spec shouldn't have access to high burst resistance (i.e. high health) and high health sustain (i.e. strong self-healing) at the same time (and nevermind the fact that those specs currently also have access to decent damage too, in the form of proc sets).

I main tank and I'll let you know if you remove self heals from Tanks you'll have people who'll seriously start raging at their healer's.

9/10 healers I play with are completely incapable of keeping me alive if I don't have self heals.

Just one BLOCKED hit from an elite add will have you lose 15.000 - 20.000 health.

Sometimes you're holding 3-4 of these fellas and a boss.

If I'm hit with two heavy attacks from elite adds within 1-2 seconds and lose 35-40k health goodluck to the healer to get my back in the fight.

Healer will have to stand ready to babysit their Tanks with burst heals and stacked HOTS.
Leave Tanks lives entirely in the hands of healer's and they can't take their eye of the Tank in endgame to rez or do anything else.

Trust me, any Tank who's doing endgame content will let you know you can't rely on your healer. How do you think we learned to tank with 3dds to begin with? Bad experiences with Healer's. But it isn't entirely their fault. The amount of sheer punishment and incoming damage you take in certain hardmodes, DLC vet with low dps team, and trials within the blink of an eye.. Healer can not keep up if you take away Tanks health based heals.

Tanks are not the problem though. Tanks are not taking the healer's spot - DDs are because their self heals are too strong and healers are more than capable of healing squishies.

Problem is Damage is king and there's next to no healing checks in dungeons.

Some sustained DOT damage on team to force DDs to choose between burning their ressources on damage (and die) or use up their ressource pool on constantly having to self heal (and do abysmal damage as a result) would bring the healer's back really quick.

So the solution to bad healers is to make the healer role useless? Let's also make tanks do 100k DPS, that will solve problems with poor DD, or maybe we should just give medium armor a 99% mitigation passive so we don't have to worry about bad tanks any more.

Additionally, if healers can't do enough healing to keep up with the needs of a tank, that sounds like an argument to buff healers, not an argument to give tanks huge self-heals.

All of that said, part of the reason that you encounter so many poor healers is that the role is so unnecessary. In organized groups, "healers" are speccing as buff bots (mostly for DPS, but also to feed tanks resources), while in PuGs half of the "healers" are fakes because people expect tanks to heal themselves. If ZoS actually made healers useful/necessary, I guarantee you'd see a lot more "healers" actually healing.

People are barely playing Tank as is, if you nerf tanks even more by taking away their heals entirely you might aswell kill the role in PVE.

From your post you make it seem like you don't play endgame Tank.
You don't seem to have a concept of how much incoming damage there is in endgame, the amount of pressure on Tanks is already insane - you don't want to add to it.

Also...
As it stands now as Tank you're entirely at the mercy of your DD's to not be in dungeons 2 hours and hope they do damage.
Imagine if you tank stuff and you don't get healed and can't heal yourself either.

You don't progress due to low damage.
and you die to stuff that isn't your fault because your healer isn't aware.

Nobody will touch that role ever again and can't blame them.
People barely play them endgame right now.