WrathOfInnos wrote: »The ring of pale order was a HUGE mistake. I am actually bewildered at how it got past the brain storm stage in development to being full on coded into the game.
What the ring SHOULD do is attach its heal to the ZOS chosen spammable in each classes toolkit. This way every class gets the heal they want from Templars jabs and healers can maintain healing in a raid/dungeon with no issues.
Wait what not all stam dds have a spammable, sorcs don't either.
Crystal Frags is considered the Sorc spammable now.
I don't play stamina characters so I am not aware of stamina in regards to spammables.
I think they all have one now, stam or mag. Just debatable how good each spammable is. Whip, Stone Giant, Puncturing Sweep, Biting Jabs, Crystal Frags, Crystal Weapon, Swallow Soul, Surprise Attack, Cliff Racer, Cutting Dive, Venom Skull and Ricochet Skull.
Actually you are right. Except the frags part I don't buy that.
[snip]
In my experience 3 DDs means less trouble with sustain because stuff actually dies faster than I can deplete all my resources. It means easier runs because stuff dies faster and less mechanics happen. It means safer runs because stuff dies faster and there is less opportunity to die. Any trifecta achievement (no death, speed run, hard mode) I've done in this game has been done with 3DD+tank. They have done healers dirty in this game.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »The ring of pale order was a HUGE mistake. I am actually bewildered at how it got past the brain storm stage in development to being full on coded into the game.
What the ring SHOULD do is attach its heal to the ZOS chosen spammable in each classes toolkit. This way every class gets the heal they want from Templars jabs and healers can maintain healing in a raid/dungeon with no issues.
Wait what not all stam dds have a spammable, sorcs don't either.
Crystal Frags is considered the Sorc spammable now.
I don't play stamina characters so I am not aware of stamina in regards to spammables.
I think they all have one now, stam or mag. Just debatable how good each spammable is. Whip, Stone Giant, Puncturing Sweep, Biting Jabs, Crystal Frags, Crystal Weapon, Swallow Soul, Surprise Attack, Cliff Racer, Cutting Dive, Venom Skull and Ricochet Skull.
Actually you are right. Except the frags part I don't buy that.
[snip]
WrathOfInnos wrote: »The ring of pale order was a HUGE mistake. I am actually bewildered at how it got past the brain storm stage in development to being full on coded into the game.
What the ring SHOULD do is attach its heal to the ZOS chosen spammable in each classes toolkit. This way every class gets the heal they want from Templars jabs and healers can maintain healing in a raid/dungeon with no issues.
Wait what not all stam dds have a spammable, sorcs don't either.
Crystal Frags is considered the Sorc spammable now.
I don't play stamina characters so I am not aware of stamina in regards to spammables.
I think they all have one now, stam or mag. Just debatable how good each spammable is. Whip, Stone Giant, Puncturing Sweep, Biting Jabs, Crystal Frags, Crystal Weapon, Swallow Soul, Surprise Attack, Cliff Racer, Cutting Dive, Venom Skull and Ricochet Skull.
Actually you are right. Except the frags part I don't buy that.
[snip]
Using unstable wall of storms as spamable on magsorc. Tried frags, but they felt too clunky.
If everyone has their spamables nowadays, how about executes? Created magden recently and either I'm blind, or there isn't any. Not big deal, since it's supposed to be a healer (yes, I've created a healer, call me crazy if you want), but it just feels weird not to have one available if ever needed.
Starlight_Whisper wrote: »In my experience 3 DDs means less trouble with sustain because stuff actually dies faster than I can deplete all my resources. It means easier runs because stuff dies faster and less mechanics happen. It means safer runs because stuff dies faster and there is less opportunity to die. Any trifecta achievement (no death, speed run, hard mode) I've done in this game has been done with 3DD+tank. They have done healers dirty in this game.
This is the real problem. The fact is you can skip mechics if dps us to high 🔥
Hopefully a coming update to the Champion system will address this.
UGotBenched91 wrote: »I guess my question what is it that is making healers less needed?
Personally I think this games dungeon/bosses focuses too much on one shot mechanics instead of enemies just doing more damage. Seems healers would be more needed.
Healers, the red headed step child of this game.
We're 'needed' for Trial content and.... that's it?
I've played a Breton Templar Healer main since the game launched on Xbox and I've NEVER felt more useless and unwanted in a MMO before.
Don't get me wrong, Healing in MMOs has always been the unappreciated role to play but this game has made healing in all but the top most tier of content utterly useless.
My healer main is over 1000 CP, 100+ Days played and I'm thinking about just coughing up for a respec and going Tank or DPS.
It's almost impossible to enjoy ESO as a healer anymore. The game community laughs at you and tells you you're not needed, the game developers ensure through the game design mechanics you're worthless 99% of the time.
Ring of the Pale order was the biggest middle finger to my class in the game to date.
I give up.
Healers, the red headed step child of this game.
We're 'needed' for Trial content and.... that's it?
I've played a Breton Templar Healer main since the game launched on Xbox and I've NEVER felt more useless and unwanted in a MMO before.
Don't get me wrong, Healing in MMOs has always been the unappreciated role to play but this game has made healing in all but the top most tier of content utterly useless.
My healer main is over 1000 CP, 100+ Days played and I'm thinking about just coughing up for a respec and going Tank or DPS.
It's almost impossible to enjoy ESO as a healer anymore. The game community laughs at you and tells you you're not needed, the game developers ensure through the game design mechanics you're worthless 99% of the time.
Ring of the Pale order was the biggest middle finger to my class in the game to date.
I give up.
Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »Healers, the red headed step child of this game.
We're 'needed' for Trial content and.... that's it?
I've played a Breton Templar Healer main since the game launched on Xbox and I've NEVER felt more useless and unwanted in a MMO before.
Don't get me wrong, Healing in MMOs has always been the unappreciated role to play but this game has made healing in all but the top most tier of content utterly useless.
My healer main is over 1000 CP, 100+ Days played and I'm thinking about just coughing up for a respec and going Tank or DPS.
It's almost impossible to enjoy ESO as a healer anymore. The game community laughs at you and tells you you're not needed, the game developers ensure through the game design mechanics you're worthless 99% of the time.
Ring of the Pale order was the biggest middle finger to my class in the game to date.
I give up.
The average dungeon I get into has at least 1 idiot who will melt into a puddle of urine and dirt if I don't keep them healed, so I don't get where all the "we don't need healer" stuff comes from. Some people on the forums say it, but in game people are squishy little rodents that probably don't even set their cp right for the content and probably just dump 100 points into whatever sounds cool. But i'm on Xbox NA so people don't have addons that scream at them to stop standing in stupid so that might play into it. I've only actually seen 1 guy in a dungeon using the pale order ring and he was dying because he wasn't doing enough damage to keep himself healed, like the average dd you meet in dungeons.
BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Healers are definitely needed still in high-end content. My core group was working our way through vet Depths of Malatar the other night and got bogged down on the Dark Orb fight of all places and we couldn't figure out why we were having so much problems, since we basically walked through the fight the first time we tried it, but before we gave up for the night, we tried just balling up on me (the healer), and even with the DPS just half-donkeying the fight by just light/heavy attacking, we nearly finished the fight because I was able to heal them through everything and keep them buffed way more effectively when stayed tightly stacked like that.
Sure, DPS right now is off the charts and that makes easier content so trivial that a healer isn't necessary, but in high-end content, having a healer is a good safety valve. For those high-end fights where a healer is less useful, its honestly because of the overuse of OHK mechanics which makes having a dedicated healer useless and having a third, dedicated DPS more appealing because you have more cumulative DPS to try to beat OHK mechanics.
So the solution to make healers relevant? Just stop using so many OHK mechanics and let good healers carry groups through fights with their righteous healing and timely shielding.
Hopefully a coming update to the Champion system will address this.
It can't. The current state where healers and to some degree tanks are useless is a direct result of ZOS' philosophy of "Raising the floor and lowering the ceiling" - aka dumbing down the game. They want new players to be able to do pretty much all content right off the bat. Requiring coordinated and / or skillful gameplay is the opposite of that. That's also the reasons why proc sets are so powerful, as they allow players pull decent dps and hps numbers with minimal effort and understanding of the game.
While in a group, they need to remove all healing other that by a player in the Healing role.
Now that would make healers relevant.
Holy mother of god how do you sustain that. Also the bear is an execute.
The ring of pale order was a HUGE mistake. I am actually bewildered at how it got past the brain storm stage in development to being full on coded into the game.
What the ring SHOULD do is attach its heal to the ZOS chosen spammable in each classes toolkit. This way every class gets the heal they want from Templars jabs and healers can maintain healing in a raid/dungeon with no issues.
A lot of Mag classes dont get an actual spammable though. Mag is in a sorry state where a lot of them have to resort to ele weapon as their spammable because Mag sustain is straight trash right now.
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »The main problem is tanks having access to health-scaling heals. The way that most encounters work in ESO is that the tank absorbs damage while everyone else just avoids getting one-shotted (or really damaged at all). This would work out fine if the tanks then had to rely on healers to sustain their health, but instead they have self-heals that scale off the same stat that lets them avoid getting one-shotted in the first place. This relegates "healers" to one of the following:
1) Being buff-bots for DPS (which is a terrible power fantasy compared to actual healing)
2) Respeccing as DPS
3) Playing in PuGs where their teammates aren't very good at the game (which can get very frustrating very fast, because it also usually comes with very low group DPS that makes clearing content a chore)
Furthermore, the health scaling heals mess up PvP too, because they contribute to the unbelievable survivability of high-health builds. One spec shouldn't have access to high burst resistance (i.e. high health) and high health sustain (i.e. strong self-healing) at the same time (and nevermind the fact that those specs currently also have access to decent damage too, in the form of proc sets).
Grandchamp1989 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »The main problem is tanks having access to health-scaling heals. The way that most encounters work in ESO is that the tank absorbs damage while everyone else just avoids getting one-shotted (or really damaged at all). This would work out fine if the tanks then had to rely on healers to sustain their health, but instead they have self-heals that scale off the same stat that lets them avoid getting one-shotted in the first place. This relegates "healers" to one of the following:
1) Being buff-bots for DPS (which is a terrible power fantasy compared to actual healing)
2) Respeccing as DPS
3) Playing in PuGs where their teammates aren't very good at the game (which can get very frustrating very fast, because it also usually comes with very low group DPS that makes clearing content a chore)
Furthermore, the health scaling heals mess up PvP too, because they contribute to the unbelievable survivability of high-health builds. One spec shouldn't have access to high burst resistance (i.e. high health) and high health sustain (i.e. strong self-healing) at the same time (and nevermind the fact that those specs currently also have access to decent damage too, in the form of proc sets).
I main tank and I'll let you know if you remove self heals from Tanks you'll have people who'll seriously start raging at their healer's.
9/10 healers I play with are completely incapable of keeping me alive if I don't have self heals.
Just one BLOCKED hit from an elite add will have you lose 15.000 - 20.000 health.
Sometimes you're holding 3-4 of these fellas and a boss.
If I'm hit with two heavy attacks from elite adds within 1-2 seconds and lose 35-40k health goodluck to the healer to get my back in the fight.
Healer will have to stand ready to babysit their Tanks with burst heals and stacked HOTS.
Leave Tanks lives entirely in the hands of healer's and they can't take their eye of the Tank in endgame to rez or do anything else.
Trust me, any Tank who's doing endgame content will let you know you can't rely on your healer. How do you think we learned to tank with 3dds to begin with? Bad experiences with Healer's. But it isn't entirely their fault. The amount of sheer punishment and incoming damage you take in certain hardmodes, DLC vet with low dps team, and trials within the blink of an eye.. Healer can not keep up if you take away Tanks health based heals.
Tanks are not the problem though. Tanks are not taking the healer's spot - DDs are because their self heals are too strong and healers are more than capable of healing squishies.
Problem is Damage is king and there's next to no healing checks in dungeons.
Some sustained DOT damage on team to force DDs to choose between burning their ressources on damage (and die) or use up their ressource pool on constantly having to self heal (and do abysmal damage as a result) would bring the healer's back really quick.
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »The main problem is tanks having access to health-scaling heals. The way that most encounters work in ESO is that the tank absorbs damage while everyone else just avoids getting one-shotted (or really damaged at all). This would work out fine if the tanks then had to rely on healers to sustain their health, but instead they have self-heals that scale off the same stat that lets them avoid getting one-shotted in the first place. This relegates "healers" to one of the following:
1) Being buff-bots for DPS (which is a terrible power fantasy compared to actual healing)
2) Respeccing as DPS
3) Playing in PuGs where their teammates aren't very good at the game (which can get very frustrating very fast, because it also usually comes with very low group DPS that makes clearing content a chore)
Furthermore, the health scaling heals mess up PvP too, because they contribute to the unbelievable survivability of high-health builds. One spec shouldn't have access to high burst resistance (i.e. high health) and high health sustain (i.e. strong self-healing) at the same time (and nevermind the fact that those specs currently also have access to decent damage too, in the form of proc sets).
I main tank and I'll let you know if you remove self heals from Tanks you'll have people who'll seriously start raging at their healer's.
9/10 healers I play with are completely incapable of keeping me alive if I don't have self heals.
Just one BLOCKED hit from an elite add will have you lose 15.000 - 20.000 health.
Sometimes you're holding 3-4 of these fellas and a boss.
If I'm hit with two heavy attacks from elite adds within 1-2 seconds and lose 35-40k health goodluck to the healer to get my back in the fight.
Healer will have to stand ready to babysit their Tanks with burst heals and stacked HOTS.
Leave Tanks lives entirely in the hands of healer's and they can't take their eye of the Tank in endgame to rez or do anything else.
Trust me, any Tank who's doing endgame content will let you know you can't rely on your healer. How do you think we learned to tank with 3dds to begin with? Bad experiences with Healer's. But it isn't entirely their fault. The amount of sheer punishment and incoming damage you take in certain hardmodes, DLC vet with low dps team, and trials within the blink of an eye.. Healer can not keep up if you take away Tanks health based heals.
Tanks are not the problem though. Tanks are not taking the healer's spot - DDs are because their self heals are too strong and healers are more than capable of healing squishies.
Problem is Damage is king and there's next to no healing checks in dungeons.
Some sustained DOT damage on team to force DDs to choose between burning their ressources on damage (and die) or use up their ressource pool on constantly having to self heal (and do abysmal damage as a result) would bring the healer's back really quick.
So the solution to bad healers is to make the healer role useless? Let's also make tanks do 100k DPS, that will solve problems with poor DD, or maybe we should just give medium armor a 99% mitigation passive so we don't have to worry about bad tanks any more.
Additionally, if healers can't do enough healing to keep up with the needs of a tank, that sounds like an argument to buff healers, not an argument to give tanks huge self-heals.
All of that said, part of the reason that you encounter so many poor healers is that the role is so unnecessary. In organized groups, "healers" are speccing as buff bots (mostly for DPS, but also to feed tanks resources), while in PuGs half of the "healers" are fakes because people expect tanks to heal themselves. If ZoS actually made healers useful/necessary, I guarantee you'd see a lot more "healers" actually healing.