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The sorry state of add-on libraries

LalMirchi
LalMirchi
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Why do some people write libraries and never update them?

Specifically I'm looking at LibAddonMenu (-2). which is a dependant file for several addons, including the excellent Beam Me Up, Awesome Guild Store, Combat Metrics, Inventory Insight, Lore Books, Lost Treasure, Postmaster, Potion Maker, Sky Shards, Trait Buddy, Wit Worthy and more, all dependant on one library: LibAddonMenu-2.0

There are many more libraries so I question the hubris of these library authors. Why write a library if you are not able/willing to keep it up to date?
  • Nestor
    Nestor
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    Because maybe the Library does not need to be updated?

    This addon is to allow the stock UI to assign hot keys (IIRC) and if the addons have not changed their shortcuts, there is no reason to update the Library. Libraries that contain say, the Motifs lists or Item Set lists, those need to be updated with most content updates.

    Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.

    PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
    Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"

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  • Easily_Lost
    Easily_Lost
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    The same reason that a lot of addons are not updated, they work fine the way they are.
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  • LalMirchi
    LalMirchi
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    Nestor wrote: »
    Because maybe the Library does not need to be updated?

    With all due respect as I really like your posts why is such an important library not updated? I think that the creators/users of this library >>> Beam Me Up, Awesome Guild Store, Combat Metrics, Inventory Insight, Lore Books, Lost Treasure, Postmaster, Potion Maker, Sky Shards, Trait Buddy, Wit Worthy should have permissions to update this very important library.

    As a technically proficient user I can update the API version manually but this is not really a convenient option, don't you agree?
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  • SirAndy
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    Maybe the author went on to greener pastures? Died of Covid? Lost some fingers and can't type anymore? Found a better game? Lost their job, got evicted and now lives under a bridge? Moved to Philly?
    There's plenty of reasons why people may stop updating their AddOns.

    And one does not need update permissions on esoui to take an out of date library and bring it up to date.
    Anyone can grab the torch and carry it.
    shades.gif

    Edited by SirAndy on November 29, 2020 4:58PM
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  • LalMirchi
    LalMirchi
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    [quote="SirAndy;c-703755 Moved to Philly?[/quote]

    Care to comment on that?
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  • SirAndy
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    LalMirchi wrote: »
    SirAndy wrote: »
    Moved to Philly?
    Care to comment on that?
    Just personal experience ...
    biggrin.gif

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  • LalMirchi
    LalMirchi
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    SirAndy wrote: »
    LalMirchi wrote: »
    SirAndy wrote: »
    Moved to Philly?
    Care to comment on that?
    Just personal experience ...
    biggrin.gif

    But Philly is awesome! Especially the Cheesesteak sandwiches :-)
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  • code65536
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    LalMirchi wrote: »
    Specifically I'm looking at LibAddonMenu

    In this case, the maintainer of the library is active. They just choose not to "update" it because there's nothing to update. The only "update" that LAM needs is for it to say, "yes, I still work with the latest Update 28 version of ESO, please stop asking". It's a placebo, since there aren't any actual changes/updates.

    In such a case, some authors opt to "update" their addon just so that the addon manager doesn't complain about it being "oudated". And some other authors opt not to do these kinds of "placebo updates".

    Just because an addon doesn't get an "update" every quarter to say, "yes, this addon still works" doesn't mean that it's not actually updated.
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  • LalMirchi
    LalMirchi
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    code65536 wrote: »
    LalMirchi wrote: »
    Specifically I'm looking at LibAddonMenu

    In this case, the maintainer of the library is active. They just choose not to "update" it because there's nothing to update. The only "update" that LAM needs is for it to say, "yes, I still work with the latest Update 28 version of ESO, please stop asking". It's a placebo, since there aren't any actual changes/updates.

    In such a case, some authors opt to "update" their addon just so that the addon manager doesn't complain about it being "oudated". And some other authors opt not to do these kinds of "placebo updates".

    Just because an addon doesn't get an "update" every quarter to say, "yes, this addon still works" doesn't mean that it's not actually updated.

    I'm sorry but I do not agree. By creating and hopefully maintaining an add-on one does have an implied duty to update it.

    The mere fact of changing the API-value taking a few seconds in a text editor and the additional few seconds to send the update upstream is trivial.

    Not updating is sheer laziness.
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  • code65536
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    LalMirchi wrote: »
    Not updating is sheer laziness.

    I do hope you realize that your words are more fitting of you than of addon developers. For example: A user who can't be bothered to check "Allow out of date add-ons" is lazy, and addon authors lament the "sorry state" of ungrateful users.

    If an addon actually needs an update to keep working, then, yes, it should be updated. We're not talking about that. These are addons that don't need updates, because there is nothing to update. Now, if an addon author decides to bump the addon so that users won't have to check that checkbox, that's great. And if an addon author decides that non-code changes do not merit updates, that's their prerogative, and if you don't like it, you're free to fork the code and make your own. Have fun!
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  • LalMirchi
    LalMirchi
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    code65536 wrote: »
    LalMirchi wrote: »
    Not updating is sheer laziness.

    I do hope you realize that your words are more fitting of you than of addon developers. For example: A user who can't be bothered to check "Allow out of date add-ons" is lazy, and addon authors lament the "sorry state" of ungrateful users.

    If an addon actually needs an update to keep working, then, yes, it should be updated. We're not talking about that. These are addons that don't need updates, because there is nothing to update. Now, if an addon author decides to bump the addon so that users won't have to check that checkbox, that's great. And if an addon author decides that non-code changes do not merit updates, that's their prerogative, and if you don't like it, you're free to fork the code and make your own. Have fun!

    How about sheer hybris? Read my words:

    " By creating and hopefully maintaining an add-on one does have an implied duty to update it."

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  • code65536
    code65536
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    LalMirchi wrote: »
    code65536 wrote: »
    LalMirchi wrote: »
    Not updating is sheer laziness.

    I do hope you realize that your words are more fitting of you than of addon developers. For example: A user who can't be bothered to check "Allow out of date add-ons" is lazy, and addon authors lament the "sorry state" of ungrateful users.

    If an addon actually needs an update to keep working, then, yes, it should be updated. We're not talking about that. These are addons that don't need updates, because there is nothing to update. Now, if an addon author decides to bump the addon so that users won't have to check that checkbox, that's great. And if an addon author decides that non-code changes do not merit updates, that's their prerogative, and if you don't like it, you're free to fork the code and make your own. Have fun!

    How about sheer hybris? Read my words:

    " By creating and hopefully maintaining an add-on one does have an implied duty to update it."

    "And if an addon author decides that non-code changes do not merit updates, that's their prerogative"

    Nor is it their "duty" to do anything. Nobody pays us. We do this because we feel like it. And although I cannot speak for the author of LibAddonMenus, it would not surprise me if he does not feel like catering to the whims of ingrates.
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  • LalMirchi
    LalMirchi
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    In no way would i denigrate the beautiful contributions that add-on creator accomplish. I rather question the unwillingness/inability to keep these tiny text-files up to date.
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  • code65536
    code65536
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    LalMirchi wrote: »
    In no way would i denigrate the beautiful contributions that add-on creator accomplish. I rather question the unwillingness/inability to keep these tiny text-files up to date.

    Yet you throw around belligerent language like "sorry state" and "sheer laziness".

    I've explained their reason already: It's not a real update with code changes. Some authors will do placebo updates for version bumps. But others see it as unnecessary and want to reserve updates for actual changes. I'm personally in the former group, but I understand and respect the position of those in the latter group.
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  • MoonlightShadow
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    I took a look at the LibAddonMenu2. It was last updated in June, 2020. Which, really, is not that long ago since there have been no api changes that have required that it be updated. However, there are older addons which pre-packaged a form of LibAddonMenu2. These pre-packaged ones are severely out of date and throwing errors. The fault is not in the author of LibAddonMenu2, but with the author who is pre-packaging an outdated broken form of the library.
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  • Baertram
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    LalMirchi wrote: »
    Nestor wrote: »
    Because maybe the Library does not need to be updated?

    With all due respect as I really like your posts why is such an important library not updated? I think that the creators/users of this library >>> Beam Me Up, Awesome Guild Store, Combat Metrics, Inventory Insight, Lore Books, Lost Treasure, Postmaster, Potion Maker, Sky Shards, Trait Buddy, Wit Worthy should have permissions to update this very important library.

    As a technically proficient user I can update the API version manually but this is not really a convenient option, don't you agree?

    Same question was answered in anther context several times already.
    Libraries are also addons.
    Addons that are shown as out of date are not non-functional, as long as they still ARE functional.

    It makes no sense to update just the txt file of any addon/library to change the ## ApiVersion number to the number the server actually uses. That's all: A simple number comparison.
    No code checks, no intelligence, nada!

    This explained you have answered your own question already:
    > As a technical proficient user I can update the API version manually but this is not really covenient, don't you agree.
    So why should we do it then?

    If there is a need as the code is broken. Sure. But if not, no way!

    And for this simple stupid number comparison we won't invest several minutes of updating code, version numbers, packing a new zip file, upload it, wait for approval, answer questions what changed, write a changelog and so on.
    And now consider also that this has to be done for ALL the addons and libraries we maintain after EACH patch where this stupid number changes...

    You get the point I hope. Else: Useless to talk to you about this any longer :-)

    Simple answer: It's not updated due to real life, time and just because there is no need to do this if you, as a user, could simply enable this damn checkbox "Allow outdated addons" in the ingame addon mangager.

    It does not tell you if addons or libs are broken. It just tells you that the txt file of the addons do not match the number.
    And this does not help at all!

    Ask ZOs to remove this checkbox so we all get our peace, finally, after 6 years of the same questions and answers :-)
    Edited by Baertram on December 21, 2020 1:53AM
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  • Baertram
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    I took a look at the LibAddonMenu2. It was last updated in June, 2020. Which, really, is not that long ago since there have been no api changes that have required that it be updated. However, there are older addons which pre-packaged a form of LibAddonMenu2. These pre-packaged ones are severely out of date and throwing errors. The fault is not in the author of LibAddonMenu2, but with the author who is pre-packaging an outdated broken form of the library.

    Correct. This is the real problem here. Outdated addons including old versions of libaries which also are hardcoded into these other addon's txt files.

    If you enabled addons which are updated several months or years ago check the addon's folder.
    If there is a /libs/ subfolder check if any library inside there is already installed in your live/AddOns folder.
    Maybe add the line
    ## DependsOn: LibAddonMenu-2.0
    to the txt file of that addon where you have removed the libs from the subfoder /libs/
    so that the addon manager will load the newest version directly from your live/Addons/LibAddonMenu-2.0/LibAddonMenu-2.0.txt file then.

    This also works with other libraries, not only my example LAM 2 here.

    Oh, and if these addons still use LibStub in their /libs/ folder:
    This library is obsolete since Summerset. Just search any lines in the lua files where it is used
    and replace something like this:

    local LAM = LibStub("LibAddonMenu-2.0")
    with
    local LAM = LibAddonMenu2

    Other libraries got such a newer global variable like LibAddonMenu2 as well. e.g. LibLoadedAddons, or LibSets.
    The names of that variables are written in the libraries's description pagein most cases.
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  • Baertram
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    LalMirchi wrote: »
    code65536 wrote: »
    LalMirchi wrote: »
    Not updating is sheer laziness.

    I do hope you realize that your words are more fitting of you than of addon developers. For example: A user who can't be bothered to check "Allow out of date add-ons" is lazy, and addon authors lament the "sorry state" of ungrateful users.

    If an addon actually needs an update to keep working, then, yes, it should be updated. We're not talking about that. These are addons that don't need updates, because there is nothing to update. Now, if an addon author decides to bump the addon so that users won't have to check that checkbox, that's great. And if an addon author decides that non-code changes do not merit updates, that's their prerogative, and if you don't like it, you're free to fork the code and make your own. Have fun!

    How about sheer hybris? Read my words:

    " By creating and hopefully maintaining an add-on one does have an implied duty to update it."

    Well, easy answer again: ***!
    Created addons can be obsolete after a few hours if a patch appears and the code does not work any longer.

    Noone can force you to use it and noone can force us to update it. It's free to use and free to abandon, every minute.
    Accept this, and don't expect anything else, then you won't be sad in the end :)
    Edited by Baertram on December 21, 2020 2:02AM
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  • twev
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    A major issue with addons being out of date simply because of the version number Vs API changes since the last time the addon was updated is that the average user of addons doesn't always know when an out of date addon is *affected* by more than just the addon version number.

    API changes can render an addon not only broken, but they can break other addons dependent on the original, and lets face it - Lots of addons are incompletely documented, so general users frequently dont know what is a safe addon that is just out of date from one affected by actual API changes, and usually has to turn off addons in various combinations to figure out issues that arise when an API change occurs

    This is just something that doesn't get mentioned or addressed too often in discussions like these.
    The problem with society these days is that no one drinks from the skulls of their enemies anymore.
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  • LalMirchi
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    Thanks for the replies.

    I've had a look at the text files for the libraries that are outdated and copied the latest API number into them. I will test today.

    Hopefully I will now be able to use my inventory without having to disable out of date addons every time.
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  • twev
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    LalMirchi wrote: »
    Thanks for the replies.

    I've had a look at the text files for the libraries that are outdated and copied the latest API number into them. I will test today.

    Hopefully I will now be able to use my inventory without having to disable out of date addons every time.

    Just keep in mind that changing the date may fool the game into thinking the addon is current, but you might lose track of the ones that were broken by an API change if you don't keep good records of the ones you edited to 'current status'.

    Just a friendly reminder.
    Edited by twev on December 22, 2020 5:02PM
    The problem with society these days is that no one drinks from the skulls of their enemies anymore.
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  • Reverb
    Reverb
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    LalMirchi wrote: »
    code65536 wrote: »
    LalMirchi wrote: »
    Specifically I'm looking at LibAddonMenu

    In this case, the maintainer of the library is active. They just choose not to "update" it because there's nothing to update. The only "update" that LAM needs is for it to say, "yes, I still work with the latest Update 28 version of ESO, please stop asking". It's a placebo, since there aren't any actual changes/updates.

    In such a case, some authors opt to "update" their addon just so that the addon manager doesn't complain about it being "oudated". And some other authors opt not to do these kinds of "placebo updates".

    Just because an addon doesn't get an "update" every quarter to say, "yes, this addon still works" doesn't mean that it's not actually updated.

    I'm sorry but I do not agree. By creating and hopefully maintaining an add-on one does have an implied duty to update it.

    The mere fact of changing the API-value taking a few seconds in a text editor and the additional few seconds to send the update upstream is trivial.

    Not updating is sheer laziness.

    You’re welcome to do it yourself then.
    Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • LalMirchi
    LalMirchi
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    Reverb wrote: »
    LalMirchi wrote: »
    code65536 wrote: »
    LalMirchi wrote: »
    Specifically I'm looking at LibAddonMenu

    In this case, the maintainer of the library is active. They just choose not to "update" it because there's nothing to update. The only "update" that LAM needs is for it to say, "yes, I still work with the latest Update 28 version of ESO, please stop asking". It's a placebo, since there aren't any actual changes/updates.

    In such a case, some authors opt to "update" their addon just so that the addon manager doesn't complain about it being "oudated". And some other authors opt not to do these kinds of "placebo updates".

    Just because an addon doesn't get an "update" every quarter to say, "yes, this addon still works" doesn't mean that it's not actually updated.

    I'm sorry but I do not agree. By creating and hopefully maintaining an add-on one does have an implied duty to update it.

    The mere fact of changing the API-value taking a few seconds in a text editor and the additional few seconds to send the update upstream is trivial.

    Not updating is sheer laziness.

    You’re welcome to do it yourself then.

    Why, thank you very much. Your help is much appreciated.
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