Elitists "META" Plague

VaranisArano · December 2020

It's always experience or the lack thereof. People who think they can slap on the "meta" gear and skills, then don't actually practice how to play with it are going to fail.

How do I know?

I've done it.

It was the best build in PVP at the time: the pre-Morrowind Blazeplar. Templar+Plague Doctor+Green Pact. Use Blazing Shield. WIN. Just melt groups of enemies. Blazeplars made it look easy. Everyone complained about it. Everyone said it was so easy to do.

Me, being just good enough in PVP to wish I was better at killing things, grabbed my Templar, grabbed the gear, and jumped into Cyrodiil ready to beat zergs and burn players. Right?

Haha. Haha. Oh my, no. I had no clue what I was doing. I died so many times until I realized that - no - this isn't as easy as the videos make it look. If I wanted to succeed as a Blazeplar, I needed to actually practice.

And that's my experience with why you don't copy the meta and expect to succeed without practicing. That was my realization that if someone makes the meta look easy, chances are you are looking at an experienced player doing it. And there's always more going on than just the gear - the situational awareness of what to do in combat is a huge factor that you have to learn for yourself.

MrBrownstone · December 2020

You are totally wrong. There is very little content that actually lets you completely skip mechanics with dps. Maw of Lorkhaj comes to mind, any others? Nope.

Best gear is farmed from Sunspire and Cloudrest where you don't need any mechanics knowledge or good dps on normal. However you say that "noobs have to play mechanics to get better gear to be able to skip those mechanics". Your arguments couldn't be more wrong.

With high dps, you just shorten the time that you're doing mechanics. You can't entirely skip the mandatory mechanics of almost all of the trial/dungeon content. That's not how it works. Pretty sure you haven't reached a point where everyone in your group can do more than 60k and expect everything to turn into a burn when you do. Nope. Once you're there you'll see that you still have to do mechanics.

NEMESIS_97 · December 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

It's always experience or the lack thereof. People who think they can slap on the "meta" gear and skills, then don't actually practice how to play with it are going to fail.

How do I know?

I've done it.

It was the best build in PVP at the time: the pre-Morrowind Blazeplar. Templar+Plague Doctor+Green Pact. Use Blazing Shield. WIN. Just melt groups of enemies. Blazeplars made it look easy. Everyone complained about it. Everyone said it was so easy to do.

Me, being just experienced enough in PVP to wish I was better at killing things, grabbed my Templar, grabbed the gear, and jumped into Cyrodiil ready to beat zergs and burn players. Right?

Haha. Haha. Oh my, no. I had no clue what I was doing.

Very true..have 17th cp 1075 chars..tryed all..on some things like you sad..done everything like on guide..same build..rotation and so on...got 94k dps..skinny cheeks got 110k...why?im not skinny cheeks..thats why...all those builds shows what can be achieved with this build in right hands..hands that training hard to get that..so should you be done same to get even near..completely agree with you

AyaDark · December 2020

NEMESIS_97 wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Miswar wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Why is this gap ?
Becouse you try more different thingth to learn.

All players have now - dps dummy. Is it possible to be good only because of dummy dpsing ?

I think - no.

The dummy will give you an idea what your damage output is.

The idea of dps is stay alive and do damage.

What sort of numbers you do pull from dummy?

You do sound a bit salty so you must have checked that info.

I do 50 k dps full self on 3 kk dps dummy.

21 kk dummy was made to promote only 1 style gameplay, so i even do not think it is correct to use it. As a half support build i gives some part of debuffs used on it, so to get better numbers on it i needremove support debuffs, and who will give them then ?

Dummy do not give you damage output for a lot of builds.

If i am full self sustained - i need no support in it. May be i need support in ultimate not in mana, it do not give me that, so it limits what i can use on it and it is not fair test. Becouse there are sets for that.

If i am Mega AOE+ build iget wrong numbers too. As example:

https://youtu.be/vYNNBb-X1AE

(It is nord tank it was not made for dps but i do not want to swap my main dd to stamina to show numbers).

You can use builds, that can empower your dps to main target if there are adds. Will this work on dummy ? No !
Will it work in real fights - yes. Boss have adds.

All dummy shows is limitation and basic understanding of your solo dps target in some condition.

Dummy gives you mana, but for some builds ifsupport gives you ultimate it is like (mana + dps for you).

So why only 1 type of game play is hardly promoted ? Why other is not shown?

The same for mechaniks! All is about skip all with dps.It is not good at all.

21m trial dummy gives you info what numbers you can get on very good trial group..not best because full optimased can bring even more guidies...and dummy gives you shards for sustain as every group will do..3m dummy is bit low because you will kill it very fast..better use 6m dummy that will show better how can you sustain yourself..but sustain is not your job in group..in very good optimised groups sustain wont be issue

To get sustain you need heals put 2 sets for sustain on. For some builds it is useless sets and they lose dps because of this. 2 sets can give you 10% more dps.

Where is optimization ?

With out sustain sets you can take mana and stamina players in the same rade.

So again, where is optimization ?

Sustain is yours, why look for it is not your job ?

You can sustain with off balance window as example.

You just comfortable to play like this, others are not.

That is all about this, this game play is hardly promoted, nothing more, with other sets they can do better numbers.

As example i am HA build, i will never go out of sustain on 3/6/100500 kk dummy, my hand can start ache yes, but i newer out from mana.

And for othersto sustain it i lose 2 sets from healer.

Other builds like DK can sustain with ultimate sets too, so this sets are promoted for NB party, with other sets we can get better numbers, where is optimization ?

It is 3 years ago meta, now we have more sets. People even do not think about it just go light attack 3 years ago way.

AyaDark · December 2020

MrBrownstone wrote: »

You are totally wrong. There is very little content that actually lets you completely skip mechanics with dps. Maw of Lorkhaj comes to mind, any others? Nope.

Best gear is farmed from Sunspire and Cloudrest where you don't need any mechanics knowledge or good dps on normal. However you say that "noobs have to play mechanics to get better gear to be able to skip those mechanics". Your arguments couldn't be more wrong.

With high dps, you just shorten the time that you're doing mechanics. You can't entirely skip the mandatory mechanics of almost all of the trial/dungeon content. That's not how it works. Pretty sure you haven't reached a point where everyone in your group can do more than 60k and expect everything to turn into a burn when you do. Nope. Once you're there you'll see that you still have to do mechanics.

As example vSS.

It is much different for tank will he hold 1-2-3 ... ads on himself.

vCR - do you need go 1 time portal 2 ...3 or more.

If you need not 2 portal groups - you need not 3 tanks. You need only 1 part of group exp in portal.

vMOL - gold stage skip is classick example.

vHOF - just skip 1st boss.

A lot of difference in game play.

Tank can hold 1-2 big adds, 3 is harder to sustain + 2*x adds.

Time us different to, you can easely sustain 1 minute, but 2-3 minutes with more mobs is much harder to stand.

It all is important to calculate for new formed group.

A lot if people do not even think this way.

NEMESIS_97 · December 2020

AyaDark wrote: »

NEMESIS_97 wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Miswar wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Why is this gap ?
Becouse you try more different thingth to learn.

All players have now - dps dummy. Is it possible to be good only because of dummy dpsing ?

I think - no.

The dummy will give you an idea what your damage output is.

The idea of dps is stay alive and do damage.

What sort of numbers you do pull from dummy?

You do sound a bit salty so you must have checked that info.

I do 50 k dps full self on 3 kk dps dummy.

21 kk dummy was made to promote only 1 style gameplay, so i even do not think it is correct to use it. As a half support build i gives some part of debuffs used on it, so to get better numbers on it i needremove support debuffs, and who will give them then ?

Dummy do not give you damage output for a lot of builds.

If i am full self sustained - i need no support in it. May be i need support in ultimate not in mana, it do not give me that, so it limits what i can use on it and it is not fair test. Becouse there are sets for that.

If i am Mega AOE+ build iget wrong numbers too. As example:

https://youtu.be/vYNNBb-X1AE

(It is nord tank it was not made for dps but i do not want to swap my main dd to stamina to show numbers).

You can use builds, that can empower your dps to main target if there are adds. Will this work on dummy ? No !
Will it work in real fights - yes. Boss have adds.

All dummy shows is limitation and basic understanding of your solo dps target in some condition.

Dummy gives you mana, but for some builds ifsupport gives you ultimate it is like (mana + dps for you).

So why only 1 type of game play is hardly promoted ? Why other is not shown?

The same for mechaniks! All is about skip all with dps.It is not good at all.

21m trial dummy gives you info what numbers you can get on very good trial group..not best because full optimased can bring even more guidies...and dummy gives you shards for sustain as every group will do..3m dummy is bit low because you will kill it very fast..better use 6m dummy that will show better how can you sustain yourself..but sustain is not your job in group..in very good optimised groups sustain wont be issue

To get sustain you need heals put 2 sets for sustain on. For some builds it is useless sets and they lose dps because of this. 2 sets can give you 10% more dps.

Where is optimization ?

With out sustain sets you can take mana and stamina players in the same rade.

So again, where is optimization ?

Sustain is yours, why look for it is not your job ?

You can sustain with off balance window as example.

You just comfortable to play like this, others are not.

That is all about this, this game play is hardly promoted, nothing more, with other sets they can do better numbers.

As example i am HA build, i will never go out of sustain on 3/6/100500 kk dummy, my hand can start ache yes, but i newer out from mana.

And for othersto sustain it i lose 2 sets from healer.

Other builds like DK can sustain with ultimate sets too, so this sets are promoted for NB party, with other sets we can get better numbers, where is optimization ?

It is 3 years ago meta, now we have more sets. People even do not think about it just go light attack 3 years ago way.

Healers provide sustain even with shards/orbs...speaking of trials..one healer should wear olo+ any other healer becomes christmas tree..and for dps there is always meta sets that will bring best numbers...and for healers/tanks is same meta sets that brings best for group..ha builds was in history...if you wont la wieving..you will lose dps...if you do ha alot in trial groups..something isnt right...never ever got issues with sustain in decent trial groups

Czekoludek · December 2020

AyaDark wrote: »

Sustain is yours, why look for it is not your job ?

You can sustain with off balance window as example.

You just comfortable to play like this, others are not.

Following this logic, your health is yours so why healing yourself as dd is not your job?

But in all seriousness, there is a huge difference between builds from yt videos and ones that ppl use for nuke. Dummy builds are (mostly) perfectly capable for most single target bosses that includes doing mechanics (no, even with siroria you can play most bosses on most trials without issues), just switch food buff and you are ready to go. No mechanic fights like vCR without portals or skiping portal in vSS Navi HM requires specific setup in terms of gear, class, race and skills from every member of the group. Nuke is easy only in older trials like MoL or HoF as these are more then 3 years old which in mmo world means eternity.

Ppl tend to focus on single target setups as it is the most difficult content in the game, most trash pulls are easy af with only couple being hard enough to justify specific setup.

NEMESIS_97 · December 2020

Czekoludek wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Sustain is yours, why look for it is not your job ?

You can sustain with off balance window as example.

You just comfortable to play like this, others are not.

Following this logic, your health is yours so why healing yourself as dd is not your job?

But in all seriousness, there is a huge difference between builds from yt videos and ones that ppl use for nuke. Dummy builds are (mostly) perfectly capable for most single target bosses that includes doing mechanics (no, even with siroria you can play most bosses on most trials without issues), just switch food buff and you are ready to go. No mechanic fights like vCR without portals or skiping portal in vSS Navi HM requires specific setup in terms of gear, class, race and skills from every member of the group. Nuke is easy only in older trials like MoL or HoF as these are more then 3 years old which in mmo world means eternity.

Ppl tend to focus on single target setups as it is the most difficult content in the game, most trash pulls are easy af with only couple being hard enough to justify specific setup.

Finally someone writes perfectly..cookie from me..agree with you...perfectly done

washbern · December 2020

You have to find the right streamer to find a build. WHen i first started, i tried to follow Alcast's builds and i failed miserably. Alcast (IMO) for the most part is geared toward people that already understand the basics. It doesn't matter how much he dumbs down his explanations, most of his builds are still min-maxed. I only started improving in this game when i started following Hack the Minataur. While a lot of his builds are not super META, they are good enough to get you started.

There are many streamers that gear towards many different players and levels of play. Watching Skinnycheeks rotations makes me dizzy. I know that i will likely never pull that off so i stick to what i know and what i can do.

akdave0 · December 2020

I run a trials group, I don’t force the issue of parse. We focus mainly on mechanics. We do teaching trials for the newer players and vet players whom want to do harder content. The biggest issue with pug groups, raid teams, is that they don’t teach vet mechanics, and positions during normal trials. We explain why we are doing what we’re doing in normals you get players ready for vet content. We help players get equipment through gear farms, which server as a teaching tool as well. Moving and positioning as a group is always focused on as well. I think more players and guilds should be focused on the teaching aspect rather than big burn and mechs ignorance. So I would say find a guild that teaches and has good understanding, patient GMs. It will make a huge difference when the time comes. If you’re on Xbox na shoot me a dm if you have an open slot and we’ll teach you how and why.

Jeirno · December 2020

AyaDark wrote: »

Do you know the reason, why a lot of partys fail in vDLC and trials ?

The reason is simple - Elitists make there video about "META super duper" builds and people who do not understand how to play try it.

Just think logically. You have a good group with good DD and healers.
You are as example tank.

You have enough healing and resources, so with good group you can put support sets on. You can try it.
You pass content a lot of times so you have exp and can experement, because you have experience ! Because you run content a lot of times.

If you are exp. you need not videos how to, because you do it million times.

Another example:
You did not pass some thing. You look video and try play like it.
But you have no exp if you need to watch it. You have no game understanding.

And so we start - you are noob tank, you try to put this sets on, because party ask it. DPS is bad, healers are not yet exp and party can not pass.

Not enough sustain, tank can not survive, not enough healing and meta gear on.

People do not understand that it do not work like that, but ask each other put meta gear.

Trials that us possible to do with half party 200+, or not exp people others try to pass for years because of this !!!

vSS, vMOL and etc we run with first time noobs from first try, but some people fail for many runs !!! They can not pass. Problem they have are always the same !

Because they try to play like "meta man on video" - it do not work like that !!!

Good players will not even watch you DPS dummy guys, but normal or just start play players will and they will be deceived because of you.

They will not get exp, because there party fail !

Good players do not need such videos, noobs will fail because of it - new players need builds for starters not this "meta dirt" that do not let them pass and get real exp. to form good groups and may be use some meta gear but based on situation and there own exp and understanding of situation.

Videos and content like this us Plague for starting players made by Elitists to promote themselfs !

Good players do not need it, for starters it is anchor that will not let people get exp and learn to play.

This is main reason why so less tanks are in randoms and play ! Reason why so many party fail.

Try to understand it. Elitists already make partys and friends to play and yes it work for them.

But exp players know it all from there iwn groups and have groups like this, they do not need such video content.

For starters it is anchor, nothing more than plague that do not let them learn and exp to pass content.

The way you hit enter after every sentence and the bad punctuation and broken English makes this a painful read.

BUT blaming content creators for posting videos of how they do stuff and noobies going copy pasta is not their fault. People need to start thinking themselves, not let other people think for them.

vamp_emily · December 2020

I don't think it is a elitist meta plague, I think it is more like a instant gratification plague. Too many players just want it now without doing the work.

NEMESIS_97 · December 2020

vamp_emily wrote: »

I don't think it is a elitist meta plague, I think it is more like a instant gratification plague. Too many players just want it now without doing the work.

Noobs who dont want to do [snip] in improving/learning/training..but want to get everything on hot plate is plague..they are always to blame for not needed nerfs and balance..that is real plague

[Edited to remove Profanity]

F22nickell · December 2020

Have been in the game for six month now. Also, ESO is my first MMO so I'm a real noob to this stuff. However, from in-game chat and reading the forum, it seems a lot of this discussion can be broken down into five types of players:

1) NOOB that is totally unprepared to run vet/hard stuff and doesn't care. Does not want to be critiqued, wears RP gear, doesn't want to learn mechanics, and (usually unsaid) expects to be carried by rest of the team = TOXIC NOOB
2) NOOB that is a noob but wants to learn. Tries to get the best gear they can from normal/overland/crafting, tries to learn, etc. However, when they want to finally run Vet/hard stuff to get the gear, they get shamed and vote kicked by the pros = TOXIC PRO
3) NOOB that is a noob but wants to learn. Tries to get the best gear they can from normal/overland/crafting, tries to learn, etc Starts with normal dungeons and trials, then finally moves on to harder stuff to get gear. Listens to other player advice, practices, etc. = GOOD NOOB.
4) PRO that runs trials and dungeons (usually in a Guild and on Discord to explain mechanics.) Helps noobs learn what they need to do in a particular dungeon/trial. Takes time to explain, etc. = GOOD PRO.

5) Rest of the pack ... Usually those folks that just PUG dungeons or LF trial members in Zone chat. Little group communication, neither helping or hindering. = LARGEST PLAYER BASE ( I think)

I consider myself a GOOD NOOB. However, I am an old man with terrible hand-eye coordination and sub-par situational skills ( I never played video games as a kid because I could never get my quarter's worth of playing time, lol).

I accept my limitations and do not expect others to carry me. With that, I choose to not run Vet dungeons, DLC Dungeons, or Trials unless I ask within my guild - They know me and know what to expect.

I am not horrible. I have my rotations down, my LA weaving is getting better, and (for the most part) know when to "stay out of stupid". However, no amount of training dummy time or multiple runs through dungeons is going to help me see when to block, interrupt, or roll-dodge. I know my limitations.

Bottom line I suppose ... I accept that I will never be "end-game" material so, with that, I choose not to do end-game material. I respect other's and where they are in their skill, and hope others will do the same.

Shootsfoot · December 2020

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Knowing mechanics
Staying out of stupid
Grabbing bashes
Knowing when to block
Ability to self sustain
Target priority
Having Minimum build requirements met
Etc....

This list goes on and on and really none of that requires META. Vet groups fail because far too many of these examples have happened.

Correct. All meta sets really do for you, generally speaking, is mitigate the mistakes made.

SidraWillowsky · December 2020

Kwoung wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with builds posted, except they are 90% all the same, but there is a reason for that... those sets work well together and with the right skills/passives you will do more DPS, even if you have serious L2P issues.
.

Yeah, people rag on the meta, but I've done extensive testing in the PTS using probably 80% of the mag DD sets available. The highest DPS I can achieve is always, always using what ends up being the meta sets. It's probably actually smarter for most players to listen to content creators unless they themselves have 2893021 free hours to test things.

But to the broader point of this thread- the issue isn't the meta or so-called elitists, it's that the game does a p*ss-poor job of teaching new players the things that are the most important, especially if they've never played an MMO before. I personally came from Skyrim, where you only really perform light and heavy attacks with physical weapons and where staves are entirely different. I had a terrible time at first because I was using only a handful of direct, single-target damage skills and had my CP allocated incorrectly (from a noob perspective, I had put all of my blue CP into Physical Weapons Expert because duh, you'd want your daggers to do as much damage as possible), and in general was entirely unfamiliar with how the game works.

As far as I can tell, the game explains almost nothing to players- that light attacks with staves scale off of max mag whereas DW scale off of max stam (or they used to; I'm glad that's not the case, though either way it's not explained), the differences between crit/pen/physical/magical/elemental/etc damage and why some are better than others for various builds, the only reference to LA weaving is a rather vague load screen message, and I could go on and on.

So blame ZOS, not the meta or "elitist" players. And perhaps, if you constantly have issues with these elitists, consider how your actions may come across, because your comments come across as pretty derisive. I'm not saying that elitists don't exist, just that people are prone to snapping at you sometimes if pushed hard enough.

mairwen85 · December 2020

Meta is a fluid thing. It just means most effective tactics available. In theory, that will change on a per group basis depending on the encounter, players, available classes, roles, experience, and knowledge. There is a defined top end meta, naturally, but ultimately what works for you and your group is the pool of tactics you have. As you progress, you polish it and optimise and naturally, organically those tactics and strategies get narrower in choice as you refine them. So, there isn't an elite meta plague. This whole thread just displays a lack of understanding for what meta means and the why and how certain configurations work. No matter the sets and load outs, compositions, you still need to play the content; you still need that knowledge of the game and mechanics to build on. What content creators provide are tried and tested, proven configurations that have worked for them. It's an aspirational end point discerning viable vs optimal, and the venom of the OP does that effort a disservice, and feels heavy with sour grapes if I'm honest about it.

https://eso-u.com/articles/is_anything_viable_can_my_build_work_is_the_meta_toxic_optimal_vs_viability

manny254 · December 2020

This thread feels like a plague.

Drdeath20 · December 2020

Vet dlc trials is an argument and category by itself. People gotta coordinate and communicate. Id bet dollars to donuts that not many random pick up groups could clear most vet dlc trials without communicating and coordinating. Wearing META matters most here.

Vet dlc dungeons are a different argument

Everest_Lionheart · December 2020

NEMESIS_97 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It's always experience or the lack thereof. People who think they can slap on the "meta" gear and skills, then don't actually practice how to play with it are going to fail.

How do I know?

I've done it.

It was the best build in PVP at the time: the pre-Morrowind Blazeplar. Templar+Plague Doctor+Green Pact. Use Blazing Shield. WIN. Just melt groups of enemies. Blazeplars made it look easy. Everyone complained about it. Everyone said it was so easy to do.

Me, being just experienced enough in PVP to wish I was better at killing things, grabbed my Templar, grabbed the gear, and jumped into Cyrodiil ready to beat zergs and burn players. Right?

Haha. Haha. Oh my, no. I had no clue what I was doing.

Very true..have 17th cp 1075 chars..tryed all..on some things like you sad..done everything like on guide..same build..rotation and so on...got 94k dps..skinny cheeks got 110k...why?im not skinny cheeks..thats why...all those builds shows what can be achieved with this build in right hands..hands that training hard to get that..so should you be done same to get even near..completely agree with you

I tried me of the new Skinny cheeks builds for Markarth as well. The 110K Stamden and was only able to hit 84K myself. Of course I didn’t have perfected Rele and was using Deadly instead of AY, Velidreth instead of Selene and no BRP DW on backbar so the expectation was to come out lower in my “off meta” build.

However I did tweak the skills a bit, used a different spamable, added another dot to the back bar, placed my ultimate in a different place to take advantage of better uptimes and less overcasting of skills and hit 89K. An improvement of 5K because I was working within the limits of my own set and able to manage better uptimes with less overcasting on a static rotation compared to the guide I was using.

But wait, there’s more! In addition to the gear listed above I also carry VO, Briarheart, Tzogvin, maelstrom bow, earthgore, sellistrix, pale order ring and use them situationally. I rotate different skills in like brawler and green lotus for solo and 4 man content. Slot a group heal if there are 3DD, ice fortress if no other warden is there to give the buff, whirling blades if there are heavy trash mobs. It’s all situational, and sometimes depends on my mood. Sometimes I just wanna spam spin to win so throw on tzo with VO and Sellistrix and 1 bar my way through the dungeons because I can.

So what you get from guides is a roadmap or blueprint of how to put out numbers, but there is always freedom to tweak builds to fit your play style to make them better.

Lab3360 · December 2020

Czekoludek wrote: »

No, toxic players who throw terms like "elitists" are much more problematic then these ppl who give build advices on YT. You basically said that it is not a fault of unexperienced ppl that they cannot clear the harder content (as they should because lack of experience) but because they use build from internet that they don't understand.
Builds from internet are for ppl who don't want to spend time on theorycrafting so they have actualy more time to learn the content. Ppl in that videos often gives you some advices about the class, gear, skills and how it synergizes with passives. Noobs fail to clear trials like vSS not because they try to be a "meta man from yt" but because they are noobs, until they learn how to do the content (it's called natural progression). Shifting the burden on content creators is toxic af and doesn't help the community at all.
Problems are not with vets who want to share their knowledge but with toxic players and ones that think they are better then in reality, know more then they do in reality and wants other ppl to give 200% but don't want to work hard on their dps/healing/tanking skills themselves.

I agree with everything you ssid except the start of your statement. You could have left out the innuendoes and you would had a more effective argument.

thegreat_one · December 2020

And then the DPS spawn a Deadroth and that MOFO runs right over my toon, Takes up my entire screen, and I can't see the Selenes proc that killed me right as she dies. Luckily I got the No death run still.

Astrid · December 2020

Doesn’t matter what you run in dungeons. Class, race, group comp, healer/no healer. Legitimately doesn’t matter. They’re not hard content like, be meta or non meta in there to your hearts content it genuinely doesn’t matter. Power creep is so high that a monkey could complete them with just mechanical knowledge.
Trials is a different story.

This is just becoming another thread of people complaining about high DPS groups skipping mechanics of certain things because they’re following the meta - which is proven to be the best for damage/healing/tanking output. Entirely pointless, causes an arguement between those who actually care about what they’re hitting numbers wise and those who want to role play and take their time.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · December 2020

Nonsense. It's an MMO. People are always going to try to optimize their build. For some portion of the community, that is what brings them enjoyment. Why shoudlnt they put their content out there for the rest of us to benefit?

Balancing veteran content around the lowest common denominator, the play any way you want crowd, would destroy end game. If you want to play the hardest stuff, improve your build, and news flash, content creators are the best resource for that. If you dont want to improve your build, well, we have normal content for a reason.

idk · December 2020

AyaDark wrote: »

Do you know the reason, why a lot of partys fail in vDLC and trials ?

The reason is simple - Elitists make there video about "META super duper" builds and people who do not understand how to play try it.

Just think logically. You have a good group with good DD and healers.

The issue is not that they copied a good build. The issue is they are not good DDs. It is making excuses to blame someone else's build for one's shortcoming in playing the game.

Over the years I have raided with competitive teams and very casual groups. In one casual group, three of us were doing 70% of the damage because five players were not good and it had nothing to do with where they got their build from.

That fight was the tipping point for that casual guild. They set DPS requirements for those wanting to raid the vet trials which turned things around for their raiding. They continued to do normal trials to make sure everyone had the opportunity to raid.

Bald_templar · December 2020

I feel that the problem op is trying to address is that tank and healer are trying to run many buff/debuff sets and too busy cast all kinds of buff/debuff instead of trying to survive and learn the mechanics. And with an overall inexperienced group, those has little to help with the low dps. As a result the “meta” gear only makes support roles squishier and the fight lasts shorter before anyone can learn the mechanics.

The op has a point. For new players, it is more important to perform their roles and learn through the game mechanics before they can skip mechanics or mix roles.

However, shifting the gears to non meta will not make any drastic changes. As a dd, you will lose more dps for not performing a good rotation than wearing the correct gear. (We have logs where an experienced dd accidentally put on a random blue staff and 6 pieces armor set and still out dps everyone else.) For healers, skill castings are also more important than gears in terms of hps. And for tanks the balance between resistance and resource management relies more on mechanics (heavy attacks, buffs, hots), rather than a set. Most of the sets for healers and tanks will give you a similar amount of resources and stats. Changing sets sometimes can help, but it will not create a floor and ceiling difference.

On the other hand, during a progression, sometimes it is more beneficial to run gears like iceheart kagrenacs or even necro rez ult to maximize the learning time. Lots of the top pve guilds are doing this to help new players experience the mechanics. Most of the contents do have penalties depending on time ( ads, dots increasing, healing debuff etc) so that people cannot clear it by for example kiting around forever. It is the balance between surviving and pushing through makes the whole group progress.

I do want to add one more thing about running meta gear. Since the meta gear pushes the dps/survive balance to the limit. Sometimes it is more noticeable using it to see what is the obstruction. For example, tank died because of
failing the mechanics
unable to mitigate heavy inc dmg through block or roll dodge
lack of self heal
lack of healing from healer
lack of resource support from healer
The factors are usually more noticeable because there is a smaller room for error.
But again, if the group need more time to learn, then it is good to build for more survive. If you think the basic mechanics are being performed, then build for more dmg to reduce time-dependent penalty.

Eiregirl · December 2020

If you want to be honest about it then everyone in this thread is right to a certain extent.

DPS focusing to much on how much damage they do instead paying attention to the mechanics of the fight have probably killed more players in every MMO than anything. Tanks losing taunt on a boss or dangerous mob, people running away from heals, blatantly standing in bad trying to get that next cast off. People not knowing how to roll dodge, block and interrupt and don’t care to know because they don’t think they should have to do that.

It is all very simple and it is all about the mechanics of the fight.

I would rather have a full group of inexperienced players who know nothing about the dungeon or trial but are willing to learn to do the mechanics right and wear nothing but overland/crafted gear than a group of players in meta setups but are not following the mechanics and are causing nothing but headache after headache and do not want to learn.

The people willing to learn and improve may never be the best in the game but they will always be better than anyone who does not play well with others no matter how good that person thinks they are.

I would prefer to have players who know their role and know the fights and follow the mechanics just like everyone else would but unless you are in a group with people you know or get lucky with pugs that is just not going to happen all the time.

I do not understand people who blatantly reject good advice on how to improve or are unwilling to improve and according to threads on these forums there are a lot of those people in the game and thankfully I have not come across many of them.

Those who are willing to learn the mechanics will be the good players in the game and those who do not no matter how much damage they do on a static dummy will never be good players.

In short I will take the players willing to learn the mechanics any day over the 100K parse who does not want to learn the fights and follow the mechanics…who simply does not play well with others.

LashanW · December 2020

AyaDark wrote: »

If you wipe you do not learn it is simple logick.

You ever play games like Dark Souls?

That "simple" logic is so wrong.

idk · December 2020

NEMESIS_97 wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Miswar wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Why is this gap ?
Becouse you try more different thingth to learn.

All players have now - dps dummy. Is it possible to be good only because of dummy dpsing ?

I think - no.

The dummy will give you an idea what your damage output is.

The idea of dps is stay alive and do damage.

What sort of numbers you do pull from dummy?

You do sound a bit salty so you must have checked that info.

I do 50 k dps full self on 3 kk dps dummy.

21 kk dummy was made to promote only 1 style gameplay, so i even do not think it is correct to use it. As a half support build i gives some part of debuffs used on it, so to get better numbers on it i needremove support debuffs, and who will give them then ?

Dummy do not give you damage output for a lot of builds.

If i am full self sustained - i need no support in it. May be i need support in ultimate not in mana, it do not give me that, so it limits what i can use on it and it is not fair test. Becouse there are sets for that.

If i am Mega AOE+ build iget wrong numbers too. As example:

https://youtu.be/vYNNBb-X1AE

(It is nord tank it was not made for dps but i do not want to swap my main dd to stamina to show numbers).

You can use builds, that can empower your dps to main target if there are adds. Will this work on dummy ? No !
Will it work in real fights - yes. Boss have adds.

All dummy shows is limitation and basic understanding of your solo dps target in some condition.

Dummy gives you mana, but for some builds ifsupport gives you ultimate it is like (mana + dps for you).

So why only 1 type of game play is hardly promoted ? Why other is not shown?

The same for mechaniks! All is about skip all with dps.It is not good at all.

21m trial dummy gives you info what numbers you can get on very good trial group..not best because full optimased can bring even more guidies...and dummy gives you shards for sustain as every group will do..3m dummy is bit low because you will kill it very fast..better use 6m dummy that will show better how can you sustain yourself..but sustain is not your job in group..in very good optimised groups sustain wont be issue

This is correct. Support role should be providing help with sustain. If someone is building for self-sustain by increasing regen or cost reduction they are decreasing the damage they are doing.

The 3 mil test dummy has long been considered to small to be worthwhile for a long time. The more health the better. Even in the video it seemed the person was running low on stam towards the end.

AyaDark wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Knowing mechanics
Staying out of stupid
Grabbing bashes
Knowing when to block
Ability to self sustain
Target priority
Having Minimum build requirements met
Etc....

This list goes on and on and really none of that requires META. Vet groups fail because far too many of these examples have happened.

But as exemple some mech can not be done without self heal, some players remove heal for more dps..

In those situations, one builds for it.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · December 2020

AyaDark wrote: »

Do you know the reason, why a lot of partys fail in vDLC and trials ?

The reason is simple - Elitists make there video about "META super duper" builds and people who do not understand how to play try it.

Just think logically. You have a good group with good DD and healers.
You are as example tank.

You have enough healing and resources, so with good group you can put support sets on. You can try it.
You pass content a lot of times so you have exp and can experement, because you have experience ! Because you run content a lot of times.

If you are exp. you need not videos how to, because you do it million times.

Another example:
You did not pass some thing. You look video and try play like it.
But you have no exp if you need to watch it. You have no game understanding.

And so we start - you are noob tank, you try to put this sets on, because party ask it. DPS is bad, healers are not yet exp and party can not pass.

Not enough sustain, tank can not survive, not enough healing and meta gear on.

People do not understand that it do not work like that, but ask each other put meta gear.

Trials that us possible to do with half party 200+, or not exp people others try to pass for years because of this !!!

vSS, vMOL and etc we run with first time noobs from first try, but some people fail for many runs !!! They can not pass. Problem they have are always the same !

Because they try to play like "meta man on video" - it do not work like that !!!

Good players will not even watch you DPS dummy guys, but normal or just start play players will and they will be deceived because of you.

They will not get exp, because there party fail !

Good players do not need such videos, noobs will fail because of it - new players need builds for starters not this "meta dirt" that do not let them pass and get real exp. to form good groups and may be use some meta gear but based on situation and there own exp and understanding of situation.

Videos and content like this us Plague for starting players made by Elitists to promote themselfs !

Good players do not need it, for starters it is anchor that will not let people get exp and learn to play.

This is main reason why so less tanks are in randoms and play ! Reason why so many party fail.

Try to understand it. Elitists already make partys and friends to play and yes it work for them.

But exp players know it all from there iwn groups and have groups like this, they do not need such video content.

For starters it is anchor, nothing more than plague that do not let them learn and exp to pass content.

iam sorry to disagree but elite players never have ago or tell peeps to what wear, norm they keep to them self's, its metaritist players that take there builds and say its the only way to play elite players will never say that