VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most of this "but the elves really are descended from the Aedra" stuff seems to me to be missing the original point.

Yeah, they are descended from the Aedra.

So what? It doesn't make them any less awful, objectively. It doesn't make them any less xenophobic, racist, and bigoted. Being "right" about their reason doesn't make it any better that their go-to response is oppression or disdain for anyone who isn't their race of Mer. Because of their ancestry, many of the elven races have chosen to treat others badly as a deliberate choice - let's not pretend that they couldn't have chosen differently.

Now, I'll admit this could be derailing into a discussion of "the ends justify the means", in which the Altmer are especially prone to going with "our ends are great for everyone, so who cares if we crack a few eggs to make the omelette" in both TES V and Shadowfen. Whelp, the Nords, the Imperials, the Redguards, and the Argonians very much care, Altmer A-holes! The Altmer haven't gotten their comeuppance from their victims yet in the TES games (aside from getting their butts kicked out of Hammerfell by the Redguards), but if I were them, I'd be rather worried given the example of the Argonians vs the Dunmer after Red Year. Pride goeth before a great fall, even for the elves. There are always consequences for awful behavior stored up down the line.


And arguably, its actually causing their own people more problems than if they weren't correct about their ancestry. The 2nd Era Altmer are a prime example. Their decision to isolate themselves to seek perfection while coasting on their ancestors' accomplishments has left their 2nd Era society in a fragile state, unable to cope with the current crisis. Because right now, the "best" are begging my nebarra Vestige to save them.

This circles back to my first post. Altmer society has certain cultural touchstones that they think make them "the best." A high level of social stratification where everyone knows their place and their ancestry, respect for everyone's path to Alaxon, seeking after perfection, heavy emphasis on ceremoniarchy, and a collection of expertise in the Sapiarchs. They think these things are good and necessary since it reflects the ways they see themselves as descended from the Aedra. On the other hand, these very aspects of their society leave them woefully, cripplingly unprepared to deal with the crisis happening in Summerset, even to the point that they are hiring mercenary nebarra adventurers to go deal with their problems. Throughout the whole questline, we see multiple failures of the Altmer society. It seems that its the sort of society that only works well when its relatively static and isolated and when it can exile the people who don't fit in.

Though it's easy to see why many Altmer fool themselves into thinking they have the best society. Because they are so isolated and parochial, all they see is outsiders causing chaos without considering that their society is so fragile that it can't handle what every other society on Tamriel manages on a daily basis: foreigners and immigrants going about their business, *gasp*. But that requires a certain level of flexibility, which is decidedly not one of the strengths of the Altmer.

After all, if you are descended from the Aedra, why should you have to be flexible? And thus we see one way that the Altmer ideology harms them in their own arrogance. They wouldn't see it that way, but its plain for outsiders (or players, looking objectively) to see. Most Altmer who DO see it tend to be outsiders in one way or another like Ayrenn or Vanus Galerion (who's Mages Guild is far more effective in the Planemeld crisis than the ideologically-opposite Sapiarchs are during Summerset.)

So, sure, the elves are descended from the Aedra.

So what? Turns out you can be descended from the Aedra and still be awful.

And that's bad? There's absolutely zero things wrong with characters being mean and nasty. It's what makes it fun. Everyone else seems to be missing the point that nobody actually wants to consume tepid stories about mild modestlets.

And nah, consequences are never stored up as a default. Sometimes they are, but sometimes the bad guys get away with it, and that's just another type of story.

Yes, that was one of the points I made in my first post. None of the cultures in the TES series would be good to live in, but they are interesting, which is why players like the complexity of the series. Flawed characters and societies with crippling weaknesses make for good stories.

I agree with "the elves are descended from the Aedra" as a statement of fact.

What I'm bringing to the discussion is to point out that "the elves are descended from the Aedra" has led them to justify and excuse absolutely awful behavior, resulting in rolling conflicts with humans and beastfolk that often came back to bite the Altmer and Dunmer.

In addition, their beliefs and actions that rest on "we're descended from the Aedra" have left their societies with glaring and crippling weaknesses, leading both of them to need an outsider - explicitly, in the case of the Nerevarine, and implicitly in Summerset with the nebarra Vestige - to come in and save them when the system is tested in a major crisis. You'd think "the best" would have this figured out on their own, right?

This all makes for interesting storytelling, sure! But its a far cry from the positive spin that "Aedric ancestry" was getting as the source of their vaunted superiority.

If nothing else, we're proving the OP's point again. Even the best justification for why the elves think its okay to be awful only underscores their awfulness, both in their treatment of others and the problems in their own societies.


I also disagree about consequences. There are always consequences, though perhaps not as cataclysmic or karmic as Red Year was for the Dunmer. We have only to look at the history of elven-human conflicts in Tamriel to see the layers and layers of consequences for actions on both sides. I doubt Tiber Septim intended to cause the White-Gold Concordat when he conquered Summerset with his Numidium, but that was one end result, and that action by the Thalmor will continue to have consequences down the line in future games (unless, of course, Bethesda says "The Thalmor deactivated the towers! No more TES games!" At which point, I suppose you could definitively say that the elves won...)

Er no, lol. There are many stories in which either there are no consequences, or the villains are even rewarded. The story of Lamae Bal, for instance, or Mannimarco (remember how he got to make Vanus his zombie, just like he always wanted? lol), pretty much all the daedra do stuff with little to no consequences because they can't die, and even Vivec got off scot free, because he was never at all punished and only disappeared because he wanted to (maybe even reached amaranth). Not just in TES, but in many other works you have this theme of "injustice" or "tragedy".

And the fact that it's even said the elves in general are "awful" is just criminally untrue. What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome. And for most of the games now, it's the tension between the local culture (and sometimes even environment) and the hero that makes the game good. It's kind of why we keep starting out as a prisoner, the very bottom of any society we find ourselves in.
Let's face it, the true experience in Morrowind and Skyrim is to come to love the NPCs in spite of how mean they are to you. And hell, isn't Frostfall one of the most popular mods for Skyrim? Fact is, the games exist on the back of the adversity our characters face. That is not, in any way, "awful".

You could say it's awful in the game-world but for who? The Telvanni and Hlaalu might have thought the Redoran were awful, until they were the only militia against the Oblivion gates and Argonians, then suddenly they weren't so awful anymore. Another good thing about the writing for ye old TES games, which is sorely lacking in ESO, is the storytelling that reveals characters to not be like mirrors - what you see is what you get - but multifaceted like diamonds. Everyone's awful sometimes, to certain characters, in certain situations, but there's always a good side too (or in a good story, there should be). One doesn't cancel the other. You wouldn't say a sweetheart just because he is like that toward his loved ones, so why say he's awful just because he's like that to NPCs they hate or disvalue?

So yeah, it's not only wrong to paint elves wholesale as awful from a player perspective, but from an in-game view as well, because it usually isn't true, and when it is true it's incomplete writing rather than the character group's fault.

You are moving the goalposts to talk about individual villains. I am speaking historically about races and societies. Alessia may not have faced personal consequences for her rebellion against the Ayleids, but the consequences of that rebellion and the acts that led to it have reverberated through Elder Scrolls history impacting elven and human societies.

Unless Bethesda ends the series, there is no reason to think that there will not be consequences going forward for what the Thalmor did in and prior to Skyrim. That's just how history works. Individuals like Elenwen may escape the personal consequences of their misdeeds, but there are always consequences resulting from major actions like the White-Gold Concordat.

Which, well, duh. The entire game of TES V is all about the consequences of the White-Gold Concordat some years afterward. The entire game of TES III goes even further back, dealing with the consequences of the actions of the Dwemer and the Tribunal centuries before the game happens. Vivec might escape the consequences personally - aside from the loss of his powers and maybe the Nerevarine killing him - but the Dunmer people sure don't!

The TES series is all about consequences. Maybe not on the individual level, for every single villain, but it happens pretty organically on a societal level.



Moreover, you are getting into roleplaying territory when you talk about "What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome."

Quit moving the goalposts. We're not talking about Hlaalu v Redoran rivalries. We're talking about slavery, racism and xenophobia. As the OP said, "Altmer, Dunmer, and Dwemer are literal nazis, chauvinists, snobs... They insult everyone and feel superior to everything."

I'm even specifically talking about how Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia has created crippling weaknesses in their societies, especially because they fully buy into "we're descended from the Aedra; we do what we want." Their awful actions have detrimentally effected their own societies in multiple ways and you want me to call that awesome?

If that's what you think makes them awesome, you do you. But if you wanna roleplay your apologia for Dunmer and Altmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia, you go spew that at someone else. That's not my scene.

At best, I will acknowledge that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them interesting, complex, and thus fascinating races to roleplay in a video game. But sorry, you will not sell me the load of bull that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them not only not awful, objectively, but makes them awesome.

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most of this "but the elves really are descended from the Aedra" stuff seems to me to be missing the original point.

Yeah, they are descended from the Aedra.

So what? It doesn't make them any less awful, objectively. It doesn't make them any less xenophobic, racist, and bigoted. Being "right" about their reason doesn't make it any better that their go-to response is oppression or disdain for anyone who isn't their race of Mer. Because of their ancestry, many of the elven races have chosen to treat others badly as a deliberate choice - let's not pretend that they couldn't have chosen differently.

Now, I'll admit this could be derailing into a discussion of "the ends justify the means", in which the Altmer are especially prone to going with "our ends are great for everyone, so who cares if we crack a few eggs to make the omelette" in both TES V and Shadowfen. Whelp, the Nords, the Imperials, the Redguards, and the Argonians very much care, Altmer A-holes! The Altmer haven't gotten their comeuppance from their victims yet in the TES games (aside from getting their butts kicked out of Hammerfell by the Redguards), but if I were them, I'd be rather worried given the example of the Argonians vs the Dunmer after Red Year. Pride goeth before a great fall, even for the elves. There are always consequences for awful behavior stored up down the line.


And arguably, its actually causing their own people more problems than if they weren't correct about their ancestry. The 2nd Era Altmer are a prime example. Their decision to isolate themselves to seek perfection while coasting on their ancestors' accomplishments has left their 2nd Era society in a fragile state, unable to cope with the current crisis. Because right now, the "best" are begging my nebarra Vestige to save them.

This circles back to my first post. Altmer society has certain cultural touchstones that they think make them "the best." A high level of social stratification where everyone knows their place and their ancestry, respect for everyone's path to Alaxon, seeking after perfection, heavy emphasis on ceremoniarchy, and a collection of expertise in the Sapiarchs. They think these things are good and necessary since it reflects the ways they see themselves as descended from the Aedra. On the other hand, these very aspects of their society leave them woefully, cripplingly unprepared to deal with the crisis happening in Summerset, even to the point that they are hiring mercenary nebarra adventurers to go deal with their problems. Throughout the whole questline, we see multiple failures of the Altmer society. It seems that its the sort of society that only works well when its relatively static and isolated and when it can exile the people who don't fit in.

Though it's easy to see why many Altmer fool themselves into thinking they have the best society. Because they are so isolated and parochial, all they see is outsiders causing chaos without considering that their society is so fragile that it can't handle what every other society on Tamriel manages on a daily basis: foreigners and immigrants going about their business, *gasp*. But that requires a certain level of flexibility, which is decidedly not one of the strengths of the Altmer.

After all, if you are descended from the Aedra, why should you have to be flexible? And thus we see one way that the Altmer ideology harms them in their own arrogance. They wouldn't see it that way, but its plain for outsiders (or players, looking objectively) to see. Most Altmer who DO see it tend to be outsiders in one way or another like Ayrenn or Vanus Galerion (who's Mages Guild is far more effective in the Planemeld crisis than the ideologically-opposite Sapiarchs are during Summerset.)

So, sure, the elves are descended from the Aedra.

So what? Turns out you can be descended from the Aedra and still be awful.

And that's bad? There's absolutely zero things wrong with characters being mean and nasty. It's what makes it fun. Everyone else seems to be missing the point that nobody actually wants to consume tepid stories about mild modestlets.

And nah, consequences are never stored up as a default. Sometimes they are, but sometimes the bad guys get away with it, and that's just another type of story.

Yes, that was one of the points I made in my first post. None of the cultures in the TES series would be good to live in, but they are interesting, which is why players like the complexity of the series. Flawed characters and societies with crippling weaknesses make for good stories.

I agree with "the elves are descended from the Aedra" as a statement of fact.

What I'm bringing to the discussion is to point out that "the elves are descended from the Aedra" has led them to justify and excuse absolutely awful behavior, resulting in rolling conflicts with humans and beastfolk that often came back to bite the Altmer and Dunmer.

In addition, their beliefs and actions that rest on "we're descended from the Aedra" have left their societies with glaring and crippling weaknesses, leading both of them to need an outsider - explicitly, in the case of the Nerevarine, and implicitly in Summerset with the nebarra Vestige - to come in and save them when the system is tested in a major crisis. You'd think "the best" would have this figured out on their own, right?

This all makes for interesting storytelling, sure! But its a far cry from the positive spin that "Aedric ancestry" was getting as the source of their vaunted superiority.

If nothing else, we're proving the OP's point again. Even the best justification for why the elves think its okay to be awful only underscores their awfulness, both in their treatment of others and the problems in their own societies.


I also disagree about consequences. There are always consequences, though perhaps not as cataclysmic or karmic as Red Year was for the Dunmer. We have only to look at the history of elven-human conflicts in Tamriel to see the layers and layers of consequences for actions on both sides. I doubt Tiber Septim intended to cause the White-Gold Concordat when he conquered Summerset with his Numidium, but that was one end result, and that action by the Thalmor will continue to have consequences down the line in future games (unless, of course, Bethesda says "The Thalmor deactivated the towers! No more TES games!" At which point, I suppose you could definitively say that the elves won...)

Er no, lol. There are many stories in which either there are no consequences, or the villains are even rewarded. The story of Lamae Bal, for instance, or Mannimarco (remember how he got to make Vanus his zombie, just like he always wanted? lol), pretty much all the daedra do stuff with little to no consequences because they can't die, and even Vivec got off scot free, because he was never at all punished and only disappeared because he wanted to (maybe even reached amaranth). Not just in TES, but in many other works you have this theme of "injustice" or "tragedy".

And the fact that it's even said the elves in general are "awful" is just criminally untrue. What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome. And for most of the games now, it's the tension between the local culture (and sometimes even environment) and the hero that makes the game good. It's kind of why we keep starting out as a prisoner, the very bottom of any society we find ourselves in.
Let's face it, the true experience in Morrowind and Skyrim is to come to love the NPCs in spite of how mean they are to you. And hell, isn't Frostfall one of the most popular mods for Skyrim? Fact is, the games exist on the back of the adversity our characters face. That is not, in any way, "awful".

You could say it's awful in the game-world but for who? The Telvanni and Hlaalu might have thought the Redoran were awful, until they were the only militia against the Oblivion gates and Argonians, then suddenly they weren't so awful anymore. Another good thing about the writing for ye old TES games, which is sorely lacking in ESO, is the storytelling that reveals characters to not be like mirrors - what you see is what you get - but multifaceted like diamonds. Everyone's awful sometimes, to certain characters, in certain situations, but there's always a good side too (or in a good story, there should be). One doesn't cancel the other. You wouldn't say a sweetheart just because he is like that toward his loved ones, so why say he's awful just because he's like that to NPCs they hate or disvalue?

So yeah, it's not only wrong to paint elves wholesale as awful from a player perspective, but from an in-game view as well, because it usually isn't true, and when it is true it's incomplete writing rather than the character group's fault.

You are moving the goalposts to talk about individual villains. I am speaking historically about races and societies. Alessia may not have faced personal consequences for her rebellion against the Ayleids, but the consequences of that rebellion and the acts that led to it have reverberated through Elder Scrolls history impacting elven and human societies.

Unless Bethesda ends the series, there is no reason to think that there will not be consequences going forward for what the Thalmor did in and prior to Skyrim. That's just how history works. Individuals like Elenwen may escape the personal consequences of their misdeeds, but there are always consequences resulting from major actions like the White-Gold Concordat.

Which, well, duh. The entire game of TES V is all about the consequences of the White-Gold Concordat some years afterward. The entire game of TES III goes even further back, dealing with the consequences of the actions of the Dwemer and the Tribunal centuries before the game happens. Vivec might escape the consequences personally - aside from the loss of his powers and maybe the Nerevarine killing him - but the Dunmer people sure don't!

The TES series is all about consequences. Maybe not on the individual level, for every single villain, but it happens pretty organically on a societal level.



Moreover, you are getting into roleplaying territory when you talk about "What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome."

Quit moving the goalposts. We're not talking about Hlaalu v Redoran rivalries. We're talking about slavery, racism and xenophobia. As the OP said, "Altmer, Dunmer, and Dwemer are literal nazis, chauvinists, snobs... They insult everyone and feel superior to everything."

I'm even specifically talking about how Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia has created crippling weaknesses in their societies, especially because they fully buy into "we're descended from the Aedra; we do what we want." Their awful actions have detrimentally effected their own societies in multiple ways and you want me to call that awesome?

If that's what you think makes them awesome, you do you. But if you wanna roleplay your apologia for Dunmer and Altmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia, you go spew that at someone else. That's not my scene.

At best, I will acknowledge that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them interesting, complex, and thus fascinating races to roleplay in a video game. But sorry, you will not sell me the load of bull that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them not only not awful, objectively, but makes them awesome.

I'm not talking about individuals, I'm talking about stories. Like, specific parts of lore detailed upon. I don't care if it's "societies" or whatever, it's about the writing that is done for the games.

And I so revolt against notions of "oh like history". Nope, tendency of writing fiction for the franchise is what matters, cause that's... what we're talking about. The writing.

And nah, Vivec was around for way after the Nerevarine left for Akavir, and iIrc he left as a point to the Dunmer to have them develop self reliance, rather than have a god or gods protect them. Vivec achieved CHIM, so he didn't really depend on the Heart as much as Almalexia might've.

Like, I get the feeling you're talking about real life stuff? And that's sooo detrimental. To judge escapist fiction by real life "morality" is like trying to eat soup with a fork. Both you, and the OP, are not using the fork for its intended purpose, and you're just hurting yourselves by fretting about "moral issues" in a fiction, which has the main duty of giving people an out from reality. No wonder you're not getting anywhere by trying to bash imaginary characters for things they did not do wrong.

The characters are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing. Hence, they're the opposite of awful

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most of this "but the elves really are descended from the Aedra" stuff seems to me to be missing the original point.

Yeah, they are descended from the Aedra.

So what? It doesn't make them any less awful, objectively. It doesn't make them any less xenophobic, racist, and bigoted. Being "right" about their reason doesn't make it any better that their go-to response is oppression or disdain for anyone who isn't their race of Mer. Because of their ancestry, many of the elven races have chosen to treat others badly as a deliberate choice - let's not pretend that they couldn't have chosen differently.

Now, I'll admit this could be derailing into a discussion of "the ends justify the means", in which the Altmer are especially prone to going with "our ends are great for everyone, so who cares if we crack a few eggs to make the omelette" in both TES V and Shadowfen. Whelp, the Nords, the Imperials, the Redguards, and the Argonians very much care, Altmer A-holes! The Altmer haven't gotten their comeuppance from their victims yet in the TES games (aside from getting their butts kicked out of Hammerfell by the Redguards), but if I were them, I'd be rather worried given the example of the Argonians vs the Dunmer after Red Year. Pride goeth before a great fall, even for the elves. There are always consequences for awful behavior stored up down the line.


And arguably, its actually causing their own people more problems than if they weren't correct about their ancestry. The 2nd Era Altmer are a prime example. Their decision to isolate themselves to seek perfection while coasting on their ancestors' accomplishments has left their 2nd Era society in a fragile state, unable to cope with the current crisis. Because right now, the "best" are begging my nebarra Vestige to save them.

This circles back to my first post. Altmer society has certain cultural touchstones that they think make them "the best." A high level of social stratification where everyone knows their place and their ancestry, respect for everyone's path to Alaxon, seeking after perfection, heavy emphasis on ceremoniarchy, and a collection of expertise in the Sapiarchs. They think these things are good and necessary since it reflects the ways they see themselves as descended from the Aedra. On the other hand, these very aspects of their society leave them woefully, cripplingly unprepared to deal with the crisis happening in Summerset, even to the point that they are hiring mercenary nebarra adventurers to go deal with their problems. Throughout the whole questline, we see multiple failures of the Altmer society. It seems that its the sort of society that only works well when its relatively static and isolated and when it can exile the people who don't fit in.

Though it's easy to see why many Altmer fool themselves into thinking they have the best society. Because they are so isolated and parochial, all they see is outsiders causing chaos without considering that their society is so fragile that it can't handle what every other society on Tamriel manages on a daily basis: foreigners and immigrants going about their business, *gasp*. But that requires a certain level of flexibility, which is decidedly not one of the strengths of the Altmer.

After all, if you are descended from the Aedra, why should you have to be flexible? And thus we see one way that the Altmer ideology harms them in their own arrogance. They wouldn't see it that way, but its plain for outsiders (or players, looking objectively) to see. Most Altmer who DO see it tend to be outsiders in one way or another like Ayrenn or Vanus Galerion (who's Mages Guild is far more effective in the Planemeld crisis than the ideologically-opposite Sapiarchs are during Summerset.)

So, sure, the elves are descended from the Aedra.

So what? Turns out you can be descended from the Aedra and still be awful.

And that's bad? There's absolutely zero things wrong with characters being mean and nasty. It's what makes it fun. Everyone else seems to be missing the point that nobody actually wants to consume tepid stories about mild modestlets.

And nah, consequences are never stored up as a default. Sometimes they are, but sometimes the bad guys get away with it, and that's just another type of story.

Yes, that was one of the points I made in my first post. None of the cultures in the TES series would be good to live in, but they are interesting, which is why players like the complexity of the series. Flawed characters and societies with crippling weaknesses make for good stories.

I agree with "the elves are descended from the Aedra" as a statement of fact.

What I'm bringing to the discussion is to point out that "the elves are descended from the Aedra" has led them to justify and excuse absolutely awful behavior, resulting in rolling conflicts with humans and beastfolk that often came back to bite the Altmer and Dunmer.

In addition, their beliefs and actions that rest on "we're descended from the Aedra" have left their societies with glaring and crippling weaknesses, leading both of them to need an outsider - explicitly, in the case of the Nerevarine, and implicitly in Summerset with the nebarra Vestige - to come in and save them when the system is tested in a major crisis. You'd think "the best" would have this figured out on their own, right?

This all makes for interesting storytelling, sure! But its a far cry from the positive spin that "Aedric ancestry" was getting as the source of their vaunted superiority.

If nothing else, we're proving the OP's point again. Even the best justification for why the elves think its okay to be awful only underscores their awfulness, both in their treatment of others and the problems in their own societies.


I also disagree about consequences. There are always consequences, though perhaps not as cataclysmic or karmic as Red Year was for the Dunmer. We have only to look at the history of elven-human conflicts in Tamriel to see the layers and layers of consequences for actions on both sides. I doubt Tiber Septim intended to cause the White-Gold Concordat when he conquered Summerset with his Numidium, but that was one end result, and that action by the Thalmor will continue to have consequences down the line in future games (unless, of course, Bethesda says "The Thalmor deactivated the towers! No more TES games!" At which point, I suppose you could definitively say that the elves won...)

Er no, lol. There are many stories in which either there are no consequences, or the villains are even rewarded. The story of Lamae Bal, for instance, or Mannimarco (remember how he got to make Vanus his zombie, just like he always wanted? lol), pretty much all the daedra do stuff with little to no consequences because they can't die, and even Vivec got off scot free, because he was never at all punished and only disappeared because he wanted to (maybe even reached amaranth). Not just in TES, but in many other works you have this theme of "injustice" or "tragedy".

And the fact that it's even said the elves in general are "awful" is just criminally untrue. What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome. And for most of the games now, it's the tension between the local culture (and sometimes even environment) and the hero that makes the game good. It's kind of why we keep starting out as a prisoner, the very bottom of any society we find ourselves in.
Let's face it, the true experience in Morrowind and Skyrim is to come to love the NPCs in spite of how mean they are to you. And hell, isn't Frostfall one of the most popular mods for Skyrim? Fact is, the games exist on the back of the adversity our characters face. That is not, in any way, "awful".

You could say it's awful in the game-world but for who? The Telvanni and Hlaalu might have thought the Redoran were awful, until they were the only militia against the Oblivion gates and Argonians, then suddenly they weren't so awful anymore. Another good thing about the writing for ye old TES games, which is sorely lacking in ESO, is the storytelling that reveals characters to not be like mirrors - what you see is what you get - but multifaceted like diamonds. Everyone's awful sometimes, to certain characters, in certain situations, but there's always a good side too (or in a good story, there should be). One doesn't cancel the other. You wouldn't say a sweetheart just because he is like that toward his loved ones, so why say he's awful just because he's like that to NPCs they hate or disvalue?

So yeah, it's not only wrong to paint elves wholesale as awful from a player perspective, but from an in-game view as well, because it usually isn't true, and when it is true it's incomplete writing rather than the character group's fault.

You are moving the goalposts to talk about individual villains. I am speaking historically about races and societies. Alessia may not have faced personal consequences for her rebellion against the Ayleids, but the consequences of that rebellion and the acts that led to it have reverberated through Elder Scrolls history impacting elven and human societies.

Unless Bethesda ends the series, there is no reason to think that there will not be consequences going forward for what the Thalmor did in and prior to Skyrim. That's just how history works. Individuals like Elenwen may escape the personal consequences of their misdeeds, but there are always consequences resulting from major actions like the White-Gold Concordat.

Which, well, duh. The entire game of TES V is all about the consequences of the White-Gold Concordat some years afterward. The entire game of TES III goes even further back, dealing with the consequences of the actions of the Dwemer and the Tribunal centuries before the game happens. Vivec might escape the consequences personally - aside from the loss of his powers and maybe the Nerevarine killing him - but the Dunmer people sure don't!

The TES series is all about consequences. Maybe not on the individual level, for every single villain, but it happens pretty organically on a societal level.



Moreover, you are getting into roleplaying territory when you talk about "What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome."

Quit moving the goalposts. We're not talking about Hlaalu v Redoran rivalries. We're talking about slavery, racism and xenophobia. As the OP said, "Altmer, Dunmer, and Dwemer are literal nazis, chauvinists, snobs... They insult everyone and feel superior to everything."

I'm even specifically talking about how Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia has created crippling weaknesses in their societies, especially because they fully buy into "we're descended from the Aedra; we do what we want." Their awful actions have detrimentally effected their own societies in multiple ways and you want me to call that awesome?

If that's what you think makes them awesome, you do you. But if you wanna roleplay your apologia for Dunmer and Altmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia, you go spew that at someone else. That's not my scene.

At best, I will acknowledge that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them interesting, complex, and thus fascinating races to roleplay in a video game. But sorry, you will not sell me the load of bull that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them not only not awful, objectively, but makes them awesome.

I'm not talking about individuals, I'm talking about stories. Like, specific parts of lore detailed upon. I don't care if it's "societies" or whatever, it's about the writing that is done for the games.

And I so revolt against notions of "oh like history". Nope, tendency of writing fiction for the franchise is what matters, cause that's... what we're talking about. The writing.

And nah, Vivec was around for way after the Nerevarine left for Akavir, and iIrc he left as a point to the Dunmer to have them develop self reliance, rather than have a god or gods protect them. Vivec achieved CHIM, so he didn't really depend on the Heart as much as Almalexia might've.

Like, I get the feeling you're talking about real life stuff? And that's sooo detrimental. To judge escapist fiction by real life "morality" is like trying to eat soup with a fork. Both you, and the OP, are not using the fork for its intended purpose, and you're just hurting yourselves by fretting about "moral issues" in a fiction, which has the main duty of giving people an out from reality. No wonder you're not getting anywhere by trying to bash imaginary characters for things they did not do wrong.

The characters are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing. Hence, they're the opposite of awful

You are moving your goalposts all over the place, buddy. Can't stand a little critique of your "escapist fantasy", or something?

I've pointed out how in-universe the Altmer and Dunmer have damaged their own people and crippled their own societies with their slavery, racism, and xenophobia, something that comes directly from the whole "the elves are descended from the Aedra" business.

"But it's fantasy!"

Yeah, and even in a fantasy universe, in these TES stories, there are historical and societal consequences for the Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia. We've seen that again and again in the TES stories and I've pointed out examples. I'm not gonna rehash it again.

"But that stuff makes them awesome!"

It makes them interesting and complex as video game characters, sure. It would be absolutely awful to not be an Altmer or Dunmer in universe, and have to live with their slavery, racism, and xenophobia. For that matter, it'd be pretty awful to be an Altmer or Dunmer who got stuck with the consequences of that slavery, racism, and xenophobia. I mean, we can talk Red Yearn but it also kinda sucks to be the Altmer flailing about in Summerset going "but how do we deal with people who don't fit in when the queen says we can't just exile them", right? Their belief in their own superiority actively makes their lives worse, but they can't admit that because they've based so much of their worth around that "we're better because we're descended from the Aedra."

"You don't get it. It's escapist fantasy. Quit trying to bring in outside morality. Just accept it as escapism."

Yeah...well, someone's trying to sell an escapist fantasy where the Dunmer and Altmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia hasn't caused massive problems for themselves but instead is what makes them awesome!

Sorry. I'll stick to the TES games and lore, where as it turns out, Dunmer and Altmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia are at the root of a lot of their problems as a faction in that fantasy setting. The complexity between their ideologies and the problems it causes them is one aspect that makes them well-done in terms of writing. Denying those consequences of their decisions also removes a good portion of the lore and game writing that makes them interesting. As characters, I really like Altmer and Dunmer, but spewing apologia for their bad actions is so not my scene.

"Man, you take this too seriously."

Buddy, we're all discussing the lore of a video game series on an MMO forum. Its serious and also all in good fun. If you don't wanna have your escapist fantasy elf characters dunked on for endorsing slavery, racism, and xenophobia even when it causes themselves problems in universe, you might want to look at Tolkien elves instead. (But not the Silmarillion elves, nope, not that bunch of Noldor murderers...well, crud.)

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most of this "but the elves really are descended from the Aedra" stuff seems to me to be missing the original point.

Yeah, they are descended from the Aedra.

So what? It doesn't make them any less awful, objectively. It doesn't make them any less xenophobic, racist, and bigoted. Being "right" about their reason doesn't make it any better that their go-to response is oppression or disdain for anyone who isn't their race of Mer. Because of their ancestry, many of the elven races have chosen to treat others badly as a deliberate choice - let's not pretend that they couldn't have chosen differently.

Now, I'll admit this could be derailing into a discussion of "the ends justify the means", in which the Altmer are especially prone to going with "our ends are great for everyone, so who cares if we crack a few eggs to make the omelette" in both TES V and Shadowfen. Whelp, the Nords, the Imperials, the Redguards, and the Argonians very much care, Altmer A-holes! The Altmer haven't gotten their comeuppance from their victims yet in the TES games (aside from getting their butts kicked out of Hammerfell by the Redguards), but if I were them, I'd be rather worried given the example of the Argonians vs the Dunmer after Red Year. Pride goeth before a great fall, even for the elves. There are always consequences for awful behavior stored up down the line.


And arguably, its actually causing their own people more problems than if they weren't correct about their ancestry. The 2nd Era Altmer are a prime example. Their decision to isolate themselves to seek perfection while coasting on their ancestors' accomplishments has left their 2nd Era society in a fragile state, unable to cope with the current crisis. Because right now, the "best" are begging my nebarra Vestige to save them.

This circles back to my first post. Altmer society has certain cultural touchstones that they think make them "the best." A high level of social stratification where everyone knows their place and their ancestry, respect for everyone's path to Alaxon, seeking after perfection, heavy emphasis on ceremoniarchy, and a collection of expertise in the Sapiarchs. They think these things are good and necessary since it reflects the ways they see themselves as descended from the Aedra. On the other hand, these very aspects of their society leave them woefully, cripplingly unprepared to deal with the crisis happening in Summerset, even to the point that they are hiring mercenary nebarra adventurers to go deal with their problems. Throughout the whole questline, we see multiple failures of the Altmer society. It seems that its the sort of society that only works well when its relatively static and isolated and when it can exile the people who don't fit in.

Though it's easy to see why many Altmer fool themselves into thinking they have the best society. Because they are so isolated and parochial, all they see is outsiders causing chaos without considering that their society is so fragile that it can't handle what every other society on Tamriel manages on a daily basis: foreigners and immigrants going about their business, *gasp*. But that requires a certain level of flexibility, which is decidedly not one of the strengths of the Altmer.

After all, if you are descended from the Aedra, why should you have to be flexible? And thus we see one way that the Altmer ideology harms them in their own arrogance. They wouldn't see it that way, but its plain for outsiders (or players, looking objectively) to see. Most Altmer who DO see it tend to be outsiders in one way or another like Ayrenn or Vanus Galerion (who's Mages Guild is far more effective in the Planemeld crisis than the ideologically-opposite Sapiarchs are during Summerset.)

So, sure, the elves are descended from the Aedra.

So what? Turns out you can be descended from the Aedra and still be awful.

And that's bad? There's absolutely zero things wrong with characters being mean and nasty. It's what makes it fun. Everyone else seems to be missing the point that nobody actually wants to consume tepid stories about mild modestlets.

And nah, consequences are never stored up as a default. Sometimes they are, but sometimes the bad guys get away with it, and that's just another type of story.

Yes, that was one of the points I made in my first post. None of the cultures in the TES series would be good to live in, but they are interesting, which is why players like the complexity of the series. Flawed characters and societies with crippling weaknesses make for good stories.

I agree with "the elves are descended from the Aedra" as a statement of fact.

What I'm bringing to the discussion is to point out that "the elves are descended from the Aedra" has led them to justify and excuse absolutely awful behavior, resulting in rolling conflicts with humans and beastfolk that often came back to bite the Altmer and Dunmer.

In addition, their beliefs and actions that rest on "we're descended from the Aedra" have left their societies with glaring and crippling weaknesses, leading both of them to need an outsider - explicitly, in the case of the Nerevarine, and implicitly in Summerset with the nebarra Vestige - to come in and save them when the system is tested in a major crisis. You'd think "the best" would have this figured out on their own, right?

This all makes for interesting storytelling, sure! But its a far cry from the positive spin that "Aedric ancestry" was getting as the source of their vaunted superiority.

If nothing else, we're proving the OP's point again. Even the best justification for why the elves think its okay to be awful only underscores their awfulness, both in their treatment of others and the problems in their own societies.


I also disagree about consequences. There are always consequences, though perhaps not as cataclysmic or karmic as Red Year was for the Dunmer. We have only to look at the history of elven-human conflicts in Tamriel to see the layers and layers of consequences for actions on both sides. I doubt Tiber Septim intended to cause the White-Gold Concordat when he conquered Summerset with his Numidium, but that was one end result, and that action by the Thalmor will continue to have consequences down the line in future games (unless, of course, Bethesda says "The Thalmor deactivated the towers! No more TES games!" At which point, I suppose you could definitively say that the elves won...)

Er no, lol. There are many stories in which either there are no consequences, or the villains are even rewarded. The story of Lamae Bal, for instance, or Mannimarco (remember how he got to make Vanus his zombie, just like he always wanted? lol), pretty much all the daedra do stuff with little to no consequences because they can't die, and even Vivec got off scot free, because he was never at all punished and only disappeared because he wanted to (maybe even reached amaranth). Not just in TES, but in many other works you have this theme of "injustice" or "tragedy".

And the fact that it's even said the elves in general are "awful" is just criminally untrue. What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome. And for most of the games now, it's the tension between the local culture (and sometimes even environment) and the hero that makes the game good. It's kind of why we keep starting out as a prisoner, the very bottom of any society we find ourselves in.
Let's face it, the true experience in Morrowind and Skyrim is to come to love the NPCs in spite of how mean they are to you. And hell, isn't Frostfall one of the most popular mods for Skyrim? Fact is, the games exist on the back of the adversity our characters face. That is not, in any way, "awful".

You could say it's awful in the game-world but for who? The Telvanni and Hlaalu might have thought the Redoran were awful, until they were the only militia against the Oblivion gates and Argonians, then suddenly they weren't so awful anymore. Another good thing about the writing for ye old TES games, which is sorely lacking in ESO, is the storytelling that reveals characters to not be like mirrors - what you see is what you get - but multifaceted like diamonds. Everyone's awful sometimes, to certain characters, in certain situations, but there's always a good side too (or in a good story, there should be). One doesn't cancel the other. You wouldn't say a sweetheart just because he is like that toward his loved ones, so why say he's awful just because he's like that to NPCs they hate or disvalue?

So yeah, it's not only wrong to paint elves wholesale as awful from a player perspective, but from an in-game view as well, because it usually isn't true, and when it is true it's incomplete writing rather than the character group's fault.

You are moving the goalposts to talk about individual villains. I am speaking historically about races and societies. Alessia may not have faced personal consequences for her rebellion against the Ayleids, but the consequences of that rebellion and the acts that led to it have reverberated through Elder Scrolls history impacting elven and human societies.

Unless Bethesda ends the series, there is no reason to think that there will not be consequences going forward for what the Thalmor did in and prior to Skyrim. That's just how history works. Individuals like Elenwen may escape the personal consequences of their misdeeds, but there are always consequences resulting from major actions like the White-Gold Concordat.

Which, well, duh. The entire game of TES V is all about the consequences of the White-Gold Concordat some years afterward. The entire game of TES III goes even further back, dealing with the consequences of the actions of the Dwemer and the Tribunal centuries before the game happens. Vivec might escape the consequences personally - aside from the loss of his powers and maybe the Nerevarine killing him - but the Dunmer people sure don't!

The TES series is all about consequences. Maybe not on the individual level, for every single villain, but it happens pretty organically on a societal level.



Moreover, you are getting into roleplaying territory when you talk about "What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome."

Quit moving the goalposts. We're not talking about Hlaalu v Redoran rivalries. We're talking about slavery, racism and xenophobia. As the OP said, "Altmer, Dunmer, and Dwemer are literal nazis, chauvinists, snobs... They insult everyone and feel superior to everything."

I'm even specifically talking about how Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia has created crippling weaknesses in their societies, especially because they fully buy into "we're descended from the Aedra; we do what we want." Their awful actions have detrimentally effected their own societies in multiple ways and you want me to call that awesome?

If that's what you think makes them awesome, you do you. But if you wanna roleplay your apologia for Dunmer and Altmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia, you go spew that at someone else. That's not my scene.

At best, I will acknowledge that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them interesting, complex, and thus fascinating races to roleplay in a video game. But sorry, you will not sell me the load of bull that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them not only not awful, objectively, but makes them awesome.

I'm not talking about individuals, I'm talking about stories. Like, specific parts of lore detailed upon. I don't care if it's "societies" or whatever, it's about the writing that is done for the games.

And I so revolt against notions of "oh like history". Nope, tendency of writing fiction for the franchise is what matters, cause that's... what we're talking about. The writing.

And nah, Vivec was around for way after the Nerevarine left for Akavir, and iIrc he left as a point to the Dunmer to have them develop self reliance, rather than have a god or gods protect them. Vivec achieved CHIM, so he didn't really depend on the Heart as much as Almalexia might've.

Like, I get the feeling you're talking about real life stuff? And that's sooo detrimental. To judge escapist fiction by real life "morality" is like trying to eat soup with a fork. Both you, and the OP, are not using the fork for its intended purpose, and you're just hurting yourselves by fretting about "moral issues" in a fiction, which has the main duty of giving people an out from reality. No wonder you're not getting anywhere by trying to bash imaginary characters for things they did not do wrong.

The characters are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing. Hence, they're the opposite of awful

You are moving your goalposts all over the place, buddy. Can't stand a little critique of your "escapist fantasy", or something?

I've pointed out how in-universe the Altmer and Dunmer have damaged their own people and crippled their own societies with their slavery, racism, and xenophobia, something that comes directly from the whole "the elves are descended from the Aedra" business.

"But it's fantasy!"

Yeah, and even in a fantasy universe, in these TES stories, there are historical and societal consequences for the Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia. We've seen that again and again in the TES stories and I've pointed out examples. I'm not gonna rehash it again.

"But that stuff makes them awesome!"

It makes them interesting and complex as video game characters, sure. It would be absolutely awful to not be an Altmer or Dunmer in universe, and have to live with their slavery, racism, and xenophobia. For that matter, it'd be pretty awful to be an Altmer or Dunmer who got stuck with the consequences of that slavery, racism, and xenophobia. I mean, we can talk Red Yearn but it also kinda sucks to be the Altmer flailing about in Summerset going "but how do we deal with people who don't fit in when the queen says we can't just exile them", right? Their belief in their own superiority actively makes their lives worse, but they can't admit that because they've based so much of their worth around that "we're better because we're descended from the Aedra."

"You don't get it. It's escapist fantasy. Quit trying to bring in outside morality. Just accept it as escapism."

Yeah...well, someone's trying to sell an escapist fantasy where the Dunmer and Altmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia hasn't caused massive problems for themselves but instead is what makes them awesome!

Sorry. I'll stick to the TES games and lore, where as it turns out, Dunmer and Altmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia are at the root of a lot of their problems as a faction in that fantasy setting. The complexity between their ideologies and the problems it causes them is one aspect that makes them well-done in terms of writing. Denying those consequences of their decisions also removes a good portion of the lore and game writing that makes them interesting. As characters, I really like Altmer and Dunmer, but spewing apologia for their bad actions is so not my scene.

"Man, you take this too seriously."

Buddy, we're all discussing the lore of a video game series on an MMO forum. Its serious and also all in good fun. If you don't wanna have your escapist fantasy elf characters dunked on for endorsing slavery, racism, and xenophobia even when it causes themselves problems in universe, you might want to look at Tolkien elves instead. (But not the Silmarillion elves, nope, not that bunch of Noldor murderers...well, crud.)

Yeah you just seem to be judging things by a way different perspective.

Look at it as "awefulness" in a box. Does a character do a thing which is bad? Yes and no, because it is good and bad at the same time, depending on who is on the receiving end and who is on the benefiting end. So brushing it all off as being one thing, namely "awful", ignores this aspect and is faulty for that reason.

It's what I said before, the mirror vs the diamond. You can judge a certain act to be immoral from a real-life perspective, but I don't see that as the correct thing to do at all. I think fiction is completely separate from reality and should only concern itself with its own internal rules, and we should only concern ourselves with the extent that it's fun and distracting from real life. That doesn't seem to be the tone of posts in this thread

Are Dunmer and Altmer "destroying" their own societies? I don't see how. Certainly not more than any other society, seeing as all of them do horrible things to their neighbors and to each-other. The Orcs are not hand-holding kumbaya singing hippies, nor are the Bretons, or the Redguards, or anyone at all.

In fact, the Altmer are fine and dandy with their mean wicked flawed society up to TES5, and seem to be on the winning side by the end, and Dunmeri society didn't collapse because of how it was organised, it collapsed because of stuff completely outside of their control, namely the destruction of Red Mountain (arguably the deactivation of that tower). The Nerevarine wanted to do good, and to be fair actually did by releasing the Dunmer from their dependence on the Tribunal, but they also set things in motion that ruined the place.

Same with the Skyrim civil war, the main destructive event was in a way the arrival of the Dragonborn, and likely once TES6 comes out we'll see that Skyrim as well is now a mess following the otherwise benevolent intervention of the hero. Might've been an even bigger mess without, but "without the hero there is no event"

Same with Daggerfall actually, as the activation of Numidium had a very destructive impact to those around, even though the hero was just trying to follow the emperor's orders.

All the games are like this. Only ESO seems to create the crisis before the player-character comes - probably because ESO is an MMO and its storytelling is, well... dissonant to that of the games.
And Arena was like this too, to be fair, but it was closer to a D&D game and it had almost no lore to speak of.

The view that "this group does xyz thing which is bad therefore bad" is way too manichaen, and it's really disheartening to see it take over in places where there is such potential to get lost in nuance and weirdness. It's like back to fairy tales where the big strong hero slays the dragon - that's nice and all, but there's place today for way better stories that don't conform to simplistic classicism.

So yeah, there's z e r o things awful with anything any of the races do in the game. It can only be perceived as awful from individual characters on the receiving end, but from the higher perspective in-world, it's just one other action in a series through the passage of time, and from our perspective as players it's either well executed or poorly executed. And it's why a lot of us like these games, because others would not even approach the wild creativity and freedom in storytelling that TES games did, or if they do they only do it veeery rarely. Can't possibly call something like that awful, like, there's just no way.

It seems like now you only want to evaluate fiction on its own internal rules AND you want to say we can't critique anything because everything's subjective based on who's benefiting and who's being harmed.

A. I hate to repeat stuff I've already said, so I'll point you back to my critique of Altmer society. Of course most Altmer are happy with their society - I already pointed out that they can't admit that they've got a problem with inflexibility and they usually purge/exile the Altmer who don't fall into line because to do otherwise would be to admit they've been wrong about how they went about seeking perfection. Can't be wrong or deviate from the norm when you're descended from the Aedra, right? Its no wonder they wound up with a Thalmor regime in the 4th Era raring to go impose their vision on other people and crush those humans who are messing everything up. That's what the Altmer do.

As for the Dunmer, I find your mealy-mouthed refusal to acknowledge that the collapse after Red Year was in large part finished by the Saxheel invasion in revenge for, hmm, centuries of slavery, to be rather disingenuous. There's also the catastrophic impact on their agriculture on not just Red Mountain but also losing their reliance on, hmm, slave labor plantations. Both of those together make it a rather telling omission.

If you want to argue about fiction via its own internal logic and lore, don't go conveniently leaving out the bits you don't like.

By the internal logic and rules of the TES games, yes, every race and faction has bad ideas, ideologies, and actions that create problems for them as a society. (I said already that in my first comment. If you want the rant on how the other races do that too, though, we might need another thread.) You are quick to point the finger at Bretons, Orcs, and Redguards, so why be so defensive about the Altmer and Dunmer?

I mean, ultimately, you like what you like. You are free to think that Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia is what makes them awesome.

I think it makes them interesting, complex, and awful.

B. Judgment doesn't have to be black and white or Manichaean. But a solid critique needs to be more substantial than "it is good and bad at the same time, depending on who is on the receiving end and who is on the benefiting end."

You say that, and you wonder why you've got other posters going "Dude, have you considered the real world parallels?"

I generally avoid the real life parallels in these discussion because I don't find it helpful for discussing these things in good faith.

But I'm not interested in a simplistic standard which boils down to "You can't critique anyone at all because every race is good and bad at the same time depending on who's on the receiving end and who's benefiting." You can justify anything and everything with that, which makes it pointless as a argument except to avoid having to actually render judgment on anything at all. I find that simplistic, boring, and reductive of the moral complexity of the TES characters, races, and stories. That's not even reaching the level of black and white storytelling. It's just bland "quit judging me for my escapist fantasy, man," type stuff.

Again, you can like what you like. You are free to think that Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia are what make them awesome. After all, by your own standard, "its both good and bad at the same time."

I think it makes them interesting, complex, even fascinating and, yes, still awful.

Inyhel wrote: »

The condescending Altmer attitudes just makes killing them all the more satisfying.

I like how the races of ESO generally have parallels irl. At least in my mind:

Thalmor = White supremacists
High Elves = White people
Dark Elves = East Asians
Khajit/ Argonians = Black people
Redguards = Arabs
Imperials = Romans
Akaviri = Japanese
Nords = Nordic people

If you think about how close the the parallels are on all the different levels then this game can be quite politically incorrect...

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most of this "but the elves really are descended from the Aedra" stuff seems to me to be missing the original point.

Yeah, they are descended from the Aedra.

So what? It doesn't make them any less awful, objectively. It doesn't make them any less xenophobic, racist, and bigoted. Being "right" about their reason doesn't make it any better that their go-to response is oppression or disdain for anyone who isn't their race of Mer. Because of their ancestry, many of the elven races have chosen to treat others badly as a deliberate choice - let's not pretend that they couldn't have chosen differently.

Now, I'll admit this could be derailing into a discussion of "the ends justify the means", in which the Altmer are especially prone to going with "our ends are great for everyone, so who cares if we crack a few eggs to make the omelette" in both TES V and Shadowfen. Whelp, the Nords, the Imperials, the Redguards, and the Argonians very much care, Altmer A-holes! The Altmer haven't gotten their comeuppance from their victims yet in the TES games (aside from getting their butts kicked out of Hammerfell by the Redguards), but if I were them, I'd be rather worried given the example of the Argonians vs the Dunmer after Red Year. Pride goeth before a great fall, even for the elves. There are always consequences for awful behavior stored up down the line.


And arguably, its actually causing their own people more problems than if they weren't correct about their ancestry. The 2nd Era Altmer are a prime example. Their decision to isolate themselves to seek perfection while coasting on their ancestors' accomplishments has left their 2nd Era society in a fragile state, unable to cope with the current crisis. Because right now, the "best" are begging my nebarra Vestige to save them.

This circles back to my first post. Altmer society has certain cultural touchstones that they think make them "the best." A high level of social stratification where everyone knows their place and their ancestry, respect for everyone's path to Alaxon, seeking after perfection, heavy emphasis on ceremoniarchy, and a collection of expertise in the Sapiarchs. They think these things are good and necessary since it reflects the ways they see themselves as descended from the Aedra. On the other hand, these very aspects of their society leave them woefully, cripplingly unprepared to deal with the crisis happening in Summerset, even to the point that they are hiring mercenary nebarra adventurers to go deal with their problems. Throughout the whole questline, we see multiple failures of the Altmer society. It seems that its the sort of society that only works well when its relatively static and isolated and when it can exile the people who don't fit in.

Though it's easy to see why many Altmer fool themselves into thinking they have the best society. Because they are so isolated and parochial, all they see is outsiders causing chaos without considering that their society is so fragile that it can't handle what every other society on Tamriel manages on a daily basis: foreigners and immigrants going about their business, *gasp*. But that requires a certain level of flexibility, which is decidedly not one of the strengths of the Altmer.

After all, if you are descended from the Aedra, why should you have to be flexible? And thus we see one way that the Altmer ideology harms them in their own arrogance. They wouldn't see it that way, but its plain for outsiders (or players, looking objectively) to see. Most Altmer who DO see it tend to be outsiders in one way or another like Ayrenn or Vanus Galerion (who's Mages Guild is far more effective in the Planemeld crisis than the ideologically-opposite Sapiarchs are during Summerset.)

So, sure, the elves are descended from the Aedra.

So what? Turns out you can be descended from the Aedra and still be awful.

And that's bad? There's absolutely zero things wrong with characters being mean and nasty. It's what makes it fun. Everyone else seems to be missing the point that nobody actually wants to consume tepid stories about mild modestlets.

And nah, consequences are never stored up as a default. Sometimes they are, but sometimes the bad guys get away with it, and that's just another type of story.

Yes, that was one of the points I made in my first post. None of the cultures in the TES series would be good to live in, but they are interesting, which is why players like the complexity of the series. Flawed characters and societies with crippling weaknesses make for good stories.

I agree with "the elves are descended from the Aedra" as a statement of fact.

What I'm bringing to the discussion is to point out that "the elves are descended from the Aedra" has led them to justify and excuse absolutely awful behavior, resulting in rolling conflicts with humans and beastfolk that often came back to bite the Altmer and Dunmer.

In addition, their beliefs and actions that rest on "we're descended from the Aedra" have left their societies with glaring and crippling weaknesses, leading both of them to need an outsider - explicitly, in the case of the Nerevarine, and implicitly in Summerset with the nebarra Vestige - to come in and save them when the system is tested in a major crisis. You'd think "the best" would have this figured out on their own, right?

This all makes for interesting storytelling, sure! But its a far cry from the positive spin that "Aedric ancestry" was getting as the source of their vaunted superiority.

If nothing else, we're proving the OP's point again. Even the best justification for why the elves think its okay to be awful only underscores their awfulness, both in their treatment of others and the problems in their own societies.


I also disagree about consequences. There are always consequences, though perhaps not as cataclysmic or karmic as Red Year was for the Dunmer. We have only to look at the history of elven-human conflicts in Tamriel to see the layers and layers of consequences for actions on both sides. I doubt Tiber Septim intended to cause the White-Gold Concordat when he conquered Summerset with his Numidium, but that was one end result, and that action by the Thalmor will continue to have consequences down the line in future games (unless, of course, Bethesda says "The Thalmor deactivated the towers! No more TES games!" At which point, I suppose you could definitively say that the elves won...)

Er no, lol. There are many stories in which either there are no consequences, or the villains are even rewarded. The story of Lamae Bal, for instance, or Mannimarco (remember how he got to make Vanus his zombie, just like he always wanted? lol), pretty much all the daedra do stuff with little to no consequences because they can't die, and even Vivec got off scot free, because he was never at all punished and only disappeared because he wanted to (maybe even reached amaranth). Not just in TES, but in many other works you have this theme of "injustice" or "tragedy".

And the fact that it's even said the elves in general are "awful" is just criminally untrue. What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome. And for most of the games now, it's the tension between the local culture (and sometimes even environment) and the hero that makes the game good. It's kind of why we keep starting out as a prisoner, the very bottom of any society we find ourselves in.
Let's face it, the true experience in Morrowind and Skyrim is to come to love the NPCs in spite of how mean they are to you. And hell, isn't Frostfall one of the most popular mods for Skyrim? Fact is, the games exist on the back of the adversity our characters face. That is not, in any way, "awful".

You could say it's awful in the game-world but for who? The Telvanni and Hlaalu might have thought the Redoran were awful, until they were the only militia against the Oblivion gates and Argonians, then suddenly they weren't so awful anymore. Another good thing about the writing for ye old TES games, which is sorely lacking in ESO, is the storytelling that reveals characters to not be like mirrors - what you see is what you get - but multifaceted like diamonds. Everyone's awful sometimes, to certain characters, in certain situations, but there's always a good side too (or in a good story, there should be). One doesn't cancel the other. You wouldn't say a sweetheart just because he is like that toward his loved ones, so why say he's awful just because he's like that to NPCs they hate or disvalue?

So yeah, it's not only wrong to paint elves wholesale as awful from a player perspective, but from an in-game view as well, because it usually isn't true, and when it is true it's incomplete writing rather than the character group's fault.

You are moving the goalposts to talk about individual villains. I am speaking historically about races and societies. Alessia may not have faced personal consequences for her rebellion against the Ayleids, but the consequences of that rebellion and the acts that led to it have reverberated through Elder Scrolls history impacting elven and human societies.

Unless Bethesda ends the series, there is no reason to think that there will not be consequences going forward for what the Thalmor did in and prior to Skyrim. That's just how history works. Individuals like Elenwen may escape the personal consequences of their misdeeds, but there are always consequences resulting from major actions like the White-Gold Concordat.

Which, well, duh. The entire game of TES V is all about the consequences of the White-Gold Concordat some years afterward. The entire game of TES III goes even further back, dealing with the consequences of the actions of the Dwemer and the Tribunal centuries before the game happens. Vivec might escape the consequences personally - aside from the loss of his powers and maybe the Nerevarine killing him - but the Dunmer people sure don't!

The TES series is all about consequences. Maybe not on the individual level, for every single villain, but it happens pretty organically on a societal level.



Moreover, you are getting into roleplaying territory when you talk about "What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome."

Quit moving the goalposts. We're not talking about Hlaalu v Redoran rivalries. We're talking about slavery, racism and xenophobia. As the OP said, "Altmer, Dunmer, and Dwemer are literal nazis, chauvinists, snobs... They insult everyone and feel superior to everything."

I'm even specifically talking about how Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia has created crippling weaknesses in their societies, especially because they fully buy into "we're descended from the Aedra; we do what we want." Their awful actions have detrimentally effected their own societies in multiple ways and you want me to call that awesome?

If that's what you think makes them awesome, you do you. But if you wanna roleplay your apologia for Dunmer and Altmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia, you go spew that at someone else. That's not my scene.

At best, I will acknowledge that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them interesting, complex, and thus fascinating races to roleplay in a video game. But sorry, you will not sell me the load of bull that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them not only not awful, objectively, but makes them awesome.

I'm not talking about individuals, I'm talking about stories. Like, specific parts of lore detailed upon. I don't care if it's "societies" or whatever, it's about the writing that is done for the games.

And I so revolt against notions of "oh like history". Nope, tendency of writing fiction for the franchise is what matters, cause that's... what we're talking about. The writing.

And nah, Vivec was around for way after the Nerevarine left for Akavir, and iIrc he left as a point to the Dunmer to have them develop self reliance, rather than have a god or gods protect them. Vivec achieved CHIM, so he didn't really depend on the Heart as much as Almalexia might've.

Like, I get the feeling you're talking about real life stuff? And that's sooo detrimental. To judge escapist fiction by real life "morality" is like trying to eat soup with a fork. Both you, and the OP, are not using the fork for its intended purpose, and you're just hurting yourselves by fretting about "moral issues" in a fiction, which has the main duty of giving people an out from reality. No wonder you're not getting anywhere by trying to bash imaginary characters for things they did not do wrong.

The characters are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing. Hence, they're the opposite of awful

You are moving your goalposts all over the place, buddy. Can't stand a little critique of your "escapist fantasy", or something?

I've pointed out how in-universe the Altmer and Dunmer have damaged their own people and crippled their own societies with their slavery, racism, and xenophobia, something that comes directly from the whole "the elves are descended from the Aedra" business.

"But it's fantasy!"

Yeah, and even in a fantasy universe, in these TES stories, there are historical and societal consequences for the Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia. We've seen that again and again in the TES stories and I've pointed out examples. I'm not gonna rehash it again.

"But that stuff makes them awesome!"

It makes them interesting and complex as video game characters, sure. It would be absolutely awful to not be an Altmer or Dunmer in universe, and have to live with their slavery, racism, and xenophobia. For that matter, it'd be pretty awful to be an Altmer or Dunmer who got stuck with the consequences of that slavery, racism, and xenophobia. I mean, we can talk Red Yearn but it also kinda sucks to be the Altmer flailing about in Summerset going "but how do we deal with people who don't fit in when the queen says we can't just exile them", right? Their belief in their own superiority actively makes their lives worse, but they can't admit that because they've based so much of their worth around that "we're better because we're descended from the Aedra."

"You don't get it. It's escapist fantasy. Quit trying to bring in outside morality. Just accept it as escapism."

Yeah...well, someone's trying to sell an escapist fantasy where the Dunmer and Altmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia hasn't caused massive problems for themselves but instead is what makes them awesome!

Sorry. I'll stick to the TES games and lore, where as it turns out, Dunmer and Altmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia are at the root of a lot of their problems as a faction in that fantasy setting. The complexity between their ideologies and the problems it causes them is one aspect that makes them well-done in terms of writing. Denying those consequences of their decisions also removes a good portion of the lore and game writing that makes them interesting. As characters, I really like Altmer and Dunmer, but spewing apologia for their bad actions is so not my scene.

"Man, you take this too seriously."

Buddy, we're all discussing the lore of a video game series on an MMO forum. Its serious and also all in good fun. If you don't wanna have your escapist fantasy elf characters dunked on for endorsing slavery, racism, and xenophobia even when it causes themselves problems in universe, you might want to look at Tolkien elves instead. (But not the Silmarillion elves, nope, not that bunch of Noldor murderers...well, crud.)

Yeah you just seem to be judging things by a way different perspective.

Look at it as "awefulness" in a box. Does a character do a thing which is bad? Yes and no, because it is good and bad at the same time, depending on who is on the receiving end and who is on the benefiting end. So brushing it all off as being one thing, namely "awful", ignores this aspect and is faulty for that reason.

It's what I said before, the mirror vs the diamond. You can judge a certain act to be immoral from a real-life perspective, but I don't see that as the correct thing to do at all. I think fiction is completely separate from reality and should only concern itself with its own internal rules, and we should only concern ourselves with the extent that it's fun and distracting from real life. That doesn't seem to be the tone of posts in this thread

Are Dunmer and Altmer "destroying" their own societies? I don't see how. Certainly not more than any other society, seeing as all of them do horrible things to their neighbors and to each-other. The Orcs are not hand-holding kumbaya singing hippies, nor are the Bretons, or the Redguards, or anyone at all.

In fact, the Altmer are fine and dandy with their mean wicked flawed society up to TES5, and seem to be on the winning side by the end, and Dunmeri society didn't collapse because of how it was organised, it collapsed because of stuff completely outside of their control, namely the destruction of Red Mountain (arguably the deactivation of that tower). The Nerevarine wanted to do good, and to be fair actually did by releasing the Dunmer from their dependence on the Tribunal, but they also set things in motion that ruined the place.

Same with the Skyrim civil war, the main destructive event was in a way the arrival of the Dragonborn, and likely once TES6 comes out we'll see that Skyrim as well is now a mess following the otherwise benevolent intervention of the hero. Might've been an even bigger mess without, but "without the hero there is no event"

Same with Daggerfall actually, as the activation of Numidium had a very destructive impact to those around, even though the hero was just trying to follow the emperor's orders.

All the games are like this. Only ESO seems to create the crisis before the player-character comes - probably because ESO is an MMO and its storytelling is, well... dissonant to that of the games.
And Arena was like this too, to be fair, but it was closer to a D&D game and it had almost no lore to speak of.

The view that "this group does xyz thing which is bad therefore bad" is way too manichaen, and it's really disheartening to see it take over in places where there is such potential to get lost in nuance and weirdness. It's like back to fairy tales where the big strong hero slays the dragon - that's nice and all, but there's place today for way better stories that don't conform to simplistic classicism.

So yeah, there's z e r o things awful with anything any of the races do in the game. It can only be perceived as awful from individual characters on the receiving end, but from the higher perspective in-world, it's just one other action in a series through the passage of time, and from our perspective as players it's either well executed or poorly executed. And it's why a lot of us like these games, because others would not even approach the wild creativity and freedom in storytelling that TES games did, or if they do they only do it veeery rarely. Can't possibly call something like that awful, like, there's just no way.

It seems like now you only want to evaluate fiction on its own internal rules AND you want to say we can't critique anything because everything's subjective based on who's benefiting and who's being harmed.

A. I hate to repeat stuff I've already said, so I'll point you back to my critique of Altmer society. Of course most Altmer are happy with their society - I already pointed out that they can't admit that they've got a problem with inflexibility and they usually purge/exile the Altmer who don't fall into line because to do otherwise would be to admit they've been wrong about how they went about seeking perfection. Can't be wrong or deviate from the norm when you're descended from the Aedra, right? Its no wonder they wound up with a Thalmor regime in the 4th Era raring to go impose their vision on other people and crush those humans who are messing everything up. That's what the Altmer do.

As for the Dunmer, I find your mealy-mouthed refusal to acknowledge that the collapse after Red Year was in large part finished by the Saxheel invasion in revenge for, hmm, centuries of slavery, to be rather disingenuous. There's also the catastrophic impact on their agriculture on not just Red Mountain but also losing their reliance on, hmm, slave labor plantations. Both of those together make it a rather telling omission.

If you want to argue about fiction via its own internal logic and lore, don't go conveniently leaving out the bits you don't like.

By the internal logic and rules of the TES games, yes, every race and faction has bad ideas, ideologies, and actions that create problems for them as a society. (I said already that in my first comment. If you want the rant on how the other races do that too, though, we might need another thread.) You are quick to point the finger at Bretons, Orcs, and Redguards, so why be so defensive about the Altmer and Dunmer?

I mean, ultimately, you like what you like. You are free to think that Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia is what makes them awesome.

I think it makes them interesting, complex, and awful.

B. Judgment doesn't have to be black and white or Manichaean. But a solid critique needs to be more substantial than "it is good and bad at the same time, depending on who is on the receiving end and who is on the benefiting end."

You say that, and you wonder why you've got other posters going "Dude, have you considered the real world parallels?"

I generally avoid the real life parallels in these discussion because I don't find it helpful for discussing these things in good faith.

But I'm not interested in a simplistic standard which boils down to "You can't critique anyone at all because every race is good and bad at the same time depending on who's on the receiving end and who's benefiting." You can justify anything and everything with that, which makes it pointless as a argument except to avoid having to actually render judgment on anything at all. I find that simplistic, boring, and reductive of the moral complexity of the TES characters, races, and stories. That's not even reaching the level of black and white storytelling. It's just bland "quit judging me for my escapist fantasy, man," type stuff.

Again, you can like what you like. You are free to think that Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia are what make them awesome. After all, by your own standard, "its both good and bad at the same time."

I think it makes them interesting, complex, even fascinating and, yes, still awful.

I mean I just don't see how it's awful. In a context in which there is clear difference in level of quality between one group and the other - say Altmer vs the goblins they enslaved, even Ayleids vs humans as humans needed literal divine intervention and time travelling robots to be freed - they'd be perfectly justified in not treating them equally. Likewise with isolationist tendencies of both Altmer and Dunmer (Bosmer too, to an extent, because of the Green pact). Clearly their surrounding groups have nooo intention of being good and fair to them, so if they want to defend against that, that's perfectly ok - thinking in particular to the Imperial occupation of Morrowind, which was bad for the Dunmer on every single level, like, you can't blame them for hating Outlanders, even if 1% of Outlanders would be beneficial. The one thing Dunmer did wrong was allow the Imperial occupation - assuming there was a way to avoid it - because then no Nerevarine, no Red Year, maybe a gradual decline as Dagoth Ur hogged the Heart but the destruction would've been way less if the Dunmer were not under Imperial occupation. This is what the Altmer wished to avoid, and who can blame them? They know exactly what's coming if they given an opening to outside competition.

I defend the Altmer and Dunmer because they're the ones actually attacked in this thread? If this thread were about the races in general, there wouldn't be much point to it. Like yeah, all groups are bad, water is wet But to single out one group, i.e. elves in general, AS IF they are the worst of the worst, is soooo disingenuous.

Well, if you continue to move the goalposts and minimize the complaints people are making here by cherrypicking the lore, then yeah, you are going to have problems actually defending the elves. I mean, you'll talk about Altmer slavery of goblins while dodging the elephant in the room of Dunmer slavery? LOL.

I think we get it at this point. You really, really like the Altmer and Dunmer for their slavery, racism, and xenophobia. It, and all the other stuff that people say make them awful is what you say makes them awesome. You've justified their slavery, racism, and xenophobia at every turn, you've minimized the harm it did to them and others, and the second you get close to implying that maybe they did something bad, you start pointing fingers at every other race.

To summarize:
"The elves didn't do anything awful."
And if they did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, they were justified.
And if they weren't, they believed they were justified, and anyways it really wasn't as bad as you say it was.
And if it was that bad, then everyone else has done something awful too."
"But I don't see how the elves are awful."

It's a pretty circular argument of minimizing and deflection at this point, bolstered by ignoring the lore that doesn't back you up and a wholesale adherence to the idea that because the Altmer and Dunmer believe they are justified, that they are justified. And if other posters bring in real world morality, just back up and say "but this Is fiction!"


Look.
You like what you like.
You appear to like an escapist fantasy where Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia is completely justified, causes them no problems down the line, and makes them awesome, not awful. That's what you've been defending at every turn.
And if that's what you like, well, you don't have to justify what you like to me.

That's just not my scene. I prefer the actual TES games which present plenty of consequences for their slavery, racism, and xenophobia alongside their justifications (and I don't buy that believing oneself to be justified actually makes one's actions justified.. Water being wet, the TES series is one where all the races are pretty awful in their own ways, and I don't begrudge any player who finds certain races awful in ways that make them not want to roleplay them.

At best, I will acknowledge that Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them interesting, complex, and thus fascinating races to roleplay in a video game. But sorry, you will not sell me the load of bull that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them not only not awful, objectively or even within the internal rules of this escapist fantasy, but makes them awesome.

I mean I didn't want to offend any fans of Argonians, but if u insist

ahem
IF IT HAS A TAIL IT'S UP FOR SALE

How can it be bad tho, in-world, when they're doing it on their own territory? Tho the extent they have the power to impose it, they are within their right, and there's little overarching morality to say otherwise. Yeah there's the divines "be good to one another" but does it really apply to creatures with tails? Why make boots and carpets out of regular wildlife then?

So yeah, there's no moral argument in-world against that sort of thing, to say nothing of isolationism which is shown to be 110% justified thanks to the Imperials.