Elves are so awful

vestahls

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I have two Altmer RP characters. I have distanced them from mainstream High Elf culture in their backstories. Both of my Altmer are narrated first as hulkynd, and then as solitary ascetics prior to them becoming the Vestige. Being complicit in the Altmers' unenlightened supremacism is not my fantasy.

I have two Dunmer as well, although they've both been benched for quite a while. If I start playing them again I'll have to write them backstories which disassociate them from the Great Houses and the Tribunal. The Tribunal and their servants are the very epitome of taboo-breaking vileness. Again, not my fantasy. Race change to Imperial, or maybe Argonian would be one way out for them.

You can RP as ashlanders and avoid some of the things you find problematic. It's a thing: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ashlander_Tribes_and_Customs is a good source of background knowledge, the Zainab or Ahemmusa tribes would be logical sources for someone who would be able to get along well with outsiders.

Er actually, the Ashlanders were even more unwelcoming to outsiders than House Dunmer. Their whole purpose of existing was kind of the Nerevarine prophecy, which among other things promised to "drive out all the outlanders from Morrowind". Plus they had a caste based society with strict roles based on sex. The whole Khan and Wisewomen thing kind of gives that away.

I mean you can RP however you like, and all ashlander tribes are a bit different, but it sort of goes against the grain to treat Ashlanders like grey hippies. If you've played TES3, you know they're not any more domesticated than anyone else.

Cundu_Ertur

vestahls wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I have two Altmer RP characters. I have distanced them from mainstream High Elf culture in their backstories. Both of my Altmer are narrated first as hulkynd, and then as solitary ascetics prior to them becoming the Vestige. Being complicit in the Altmers' unenlightened supremacism is not my fantasy.

I have two Dunmer as well, although they've both been benched for quite a while. If I start playing them again I'll have to write them backstories which disassociate them from the Great Houses and the Tribunal. The Tribunal and their servants are the very epitome of taboo-breaking vileness. Again, not my fantasy. Race change to Imperial, or maybe Argonian would be one way out for them.

You can RP as ashlanders and avoid some of the things you find problematic. It's a thing: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ashlander_Tribes_and_Customs is a good source of background knowledge, the Zainab or Ahemmusa tribes would be logical sources for someone who would be able to get along well with outsiders.

Er actually, the Ashlanders were even more unwelcoming to outsiders than House Dunmer. Their whole purpose of existing was kind of the Nerevarine prophecy, which among other things promised to "drive out all the outlanders from Morrowind". Plus they had a caste based society with strict roles based on sex. The whole Khan and Wisewomen thing kind of gives that away.

I mean you can RP however you like, and all ashlander tribes are a bit different, but it sort of goes against the grain to treat Ashlanders like grey hippies. If you've played TES3, you know they're not any more domesticated than anyone else.

Zainab: "Like the Ahemmusa, they are surprisingly peaceable and friendly even to outlanders, although they are somewhat greedy and arrogant as well. Zainab is, in a way, the oddest of the tribes in that they follow the old ways, but they are extremely interested in the change that has overtaken Vvardenfell. They freely trade with the Great Houses, and some have even sought to forge more firm business deals with Houses like Hlaalu. All in all, one gets the impression that Zainab is the most willing to adapt, even if they will not entirely leave their Ashlander lifestyle behind."

Ahemmusa: "The Ahemmusa are among the most peaceful of Ashlander tribes and the weakest in terms of amassing any sort of warband. They wear light clothing, often adorned with small shells, scales and even netting. Their weapons are more like tools, simple knives and spears they can use to work as well as defend themselves if need be. They prefer to keep to themselves and be left alone, living out their lives hunting, herding, and especially fishing."

Not all Ashlanders are xenophobic. In ESO you can wander around most of their camps with no problem, maybe a few snide comments, but you can even gain the title of clanfriend. Those ashlanders who were exiled frequently do become bandits, but no-one cares if you kill them since they are exiles. Heck, there's a repeatable ashlander quest where killing exiles is part of the quest. In TES III my Nerevarine was a Bosmer, but the tribes all accepted him once he had fulfilled the prophecies. Not all of the tribes are as concerned about the prophecies as the Urshilaku. They do, however, generally hate the Tribunal and mistrust the Houses even when they are willing to work with some individuals, and I've seen no evidence of them having slaves. At the very least it isn't widespread among them. Also, there are Dunmer who live elsewhere in the Empire who have 'gone native' and abandoned much if not all of their cultural heritage.

Cirantille

Elves feel superior because they are superior

orion_1981usub17_ESO

VaranisArano,

Mephala teaches that all civilization is built upon sex, lies and murder. And he/she is not wrong, she protect civilization from other less refined deadric princes because it can't exist with out its inherent crimes. Though the individual members of society can pretend to be distant from the negative attributes of their inherited cultures, they must embrace destruction to overthrow it which empowers Mehrune Dagon. Which is why he's one of the corners of the house of troubles.

The notion of the virtuous is a lie and the deadric princes constantly meddle in mortal affairs because they expose that lie in mortals. Aedra ask that you embrace the lie and believe it to be true. But lorkhan new virtues held both positive and negative, which is why he deceived the gods to create mundus in the first place, where conflict, potential, virtue, and lies could all have a playground to flourish.

Veinblood1965

Athan1 wrote: »

I started this game because of my love for high elves... and completely fell in love with Summerdet Isles (main island, Auridon, Artaeum, everything!), they're the most aesthetically pleasing zones by far. Also, their music is great. Elven lore and history are far more interesting and rich. And it was great fighting for the Queen and the Dominion.

However, after clearing all AD and Summerset content, and now going through EP/Morrowind content, I've come to see how terrible the elves are. All of them! In different ways. Altmer, Dunmer, and Dwemer are literal nazis, chauvinists, snobs... They insult everyone and feel superior to everything. On the other hand we have Orsimer and Bosmer who are primitive, feral...

Idk after clearing content I really got to dislike elves. I mean, they're greatly done by TES and the lore is spectacular, it takes skill to make you hate a character!

I race changed my Altmer to Breton and feel much better since. At least I feel less awful. Until I do DC content I guess...

This is so true, outside of those three zones they are extremely rude. I was at a store the other day and someone with pointy ears cut in front of me, it was then that I realized I needed to start shopping in Summerset.

vestahls

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I have two Altmer RP characters. I have distanced them from mainstream High Elf culture in their backstories. Both of my Altmer are narrated first as hulkynd, and then as solitary ascetics prior to them becoming the Vestige. Being complicit in the Altmers' unenlightened supremacism is not my fantasy.

I have two Dunmer as well, although they've both been benched for quite a while. If I start playing them again I'll have to write them backstories which disassociate them from the Great Houses and the Tribunal. The Tribunal and their servants are the very epitome of taboo-breaking vileness. Again, not my fantasy. Race change to Imperial, or maybe Argonian would be one way out for them.

You can RP as ashlanders and avoid some of the things you find problematic. It's a thing: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ashlander_Tribes_and_Customs is a good source of background knowledge, the Zainab or Ahemmusa tribes would be logical sources for someone who would be able to get along well with outsiders.

Er actually, the Ashlanders were even more unwelcoming to outsiders than House Dunmer. Their whole purpose of existing was kind of the Nerevarine prophecy, which among other things promised to "drive out all the outlanders from Morrowind". Plus they had a caste based society with strict roles based on sex. The whole Khan and Wisewomen thing kind of gives that away.

I mean you can RP however you like, and all ashlander tribes are a bit different, but it sort of goes against the grain to treat Ashlanders like grey hippies. If you've played TES3, you know they're not any more domesticated than anyone else.

Zainab: "Like the Ahemmusa, they are surprisingly peaceable and friendly even to outlanders, although they are somewhat greedy and arrogant as well. Zainab is, in a way, the oddest of the tribes in that they follow the old ways, but they are extremely interested in the change that has overtaken Vvardenfell. They freely trade with the Great Houses, and some have even sought to forge more firm business deals with Houses like Hlaalu. All in all, one gets the impression that Zainab is the most willing to adapt, even if they will not entirely leave their Ashlander lifestyle behind."

Ahemmusa: "The Ahemmusa are among the most peaceful of Ashlander tribes and the weakest in terms of amassing any sort of warband. They wear light clothing, often adorned with small shells, scales and even netting. Their weapons are more like tools, simple knives and spears they can use to work as well as defend themselves if need be. They prefer to keep to themselves and be left alone, living out their lives hunting, herding, and especially fishing."

Not all Ashlanders are xenophobic. In ESO you can wander around most of their camps with no problem, maybe a few snide comments, but you can even gain the title of clanfriend. Those ashlanders who were exiled frequently do become bandits, but no-one cares if you kill them since they are exiles. Heck, there's a repeatable ashlander quest where killing exiles is part of the quest. In TES III my Nerevarine was a Bosmer, but the tribes all accepted him once he had fulfilled the prophecies. Not all of the tribes are as concerned about the prophecies as the Urshilaku. They do, however, generally hate the Tribunal and mistrust the Houses even when they are willing to work with some individuals, and I've seen no evidence of them having slaves. At the very least it isn't widespread among them. Also, there are Dunmer who live elsewhere in the Empire who have 'gone native' and abandoned much if not all of their cultural heritage.

I am aware of how the Ashlanders are represented in ESO, but even those quotes imply "these two are strangely tolerant of your presence, for Ashlanders". And to be accepted as Clanfriend or Nerevarine respectively you have to go through some trials, it's not so simple.
Like I said, you can RP whatever you want. But Ashlanders, in line with all Dunmer, tend to be insular.

Aigym_Hlervu

You are free to accept or reject it, but here is what I think on that "Elves are so awful" topic. There are two types of understanding the lore, the Mundus - the materialistic and the idealistic ones. Using the first method a man, mer or a beastman relies only on experience, science, knowledge, on all the objects and phenomena that do have display in the Mundus, in reality. Using the latter type they rely on beliefs, someone's dominant opinion, propaganda, etc. A quick example: an appeal to the Daedric plots of Molag Bal is a materialistic thing in the Mundus, while explaining different processes referencing to, say, some weresharks' activities is an idealistic one. Because unlike the Daedra, the weresharks phenomenon has no display in reality even if we, as players playing a video game, would presume or even know that the reason to everything there were weresharks - weresharks have been still beyond the current abilities of cognition and experience in all TES games.

Since the Aurbis is an objective reality to all those who live there, since all the races of Tamriel are social beings rather than the individualistic ones, each society's nature in Tamriel is based on social classes and their division in terms of their relation to the means of production and thus their objective social interests. Thus everything that happens around a character in Tamriel can be explained using the materialistic method - the interest of the local dominant socio-economic class defines the image of a particular society, the image of the majority of a particular population that class is dominant over. An example: slavery in the House Dres lands (or House Telvanni ones - no matter) is an absolutely ok thing, slaves are not treated as conscious beings there, to the Dunmeri slavemasters they are just speaking organic property. And it is absolutely normal there and fully reconciles with the local ethics, laws and Dunmeri policy. On the other hand, there is no slavery in Argonia.

An idealistic way to explain it would be to call the Dres (and all the Dunmer as many players often do) as naturally lazy evil bloodsuckers, while Argonians would simply be described as humane and highly spiritual and kind persons by default, and that would be used as the reason to explain the issue. The materialistic way to explain it would be to point at the last stage, the absolutist one, of the Dunmeri feudal society consisting of it's dominant class of land owning feudals (the nobility of the Great Houses), and the class of the majority of the population their nobility rules over - serfs, slaves and other estates personally depended on their masters. House Dres is a society of brutal serfdom and slavery. The reason of this social model is the type of production and distribution of wealth - i.e. the local type of economy (it's the subsistence one). In turn the type of economy is defined by the local environment (climate, landscape, etc.), physical environmental resources (deposits of minerals, water, land suitable for agriculture, seas, trade routes, etc.), the amount of labor force (the quantity of possible laborers) and external influence (natural disasters, pandemics such as the Thrassian Plague of the past and the current Knahaten Flu, wars, overall economical and political situation in Tamriel, etc.).

House Dres rules over fertile lands bordering upon Argonia inhabited by cheap and effective labor force - this circumstance is the only objective reason of their status of a Great House, their power and their social structure, not those "sex, lies and murder" as Mephala might teach it. Because, say, House Hlaalu, on the other hand, lacks the same features being located in the middle of the trade routes, therefore they built a society based on commerce and craftsmanship - a much more progressive nearly capitalist society of merchants, bankers, engineers, architects who built, say, Suran and Balmora, Castle Ebonheart, etc. This is why they do not acknowledge slavery at all, though, their more progressive socio-economic formation also gave room to such a thing as the Camonna Tong. Yes, it is always a dualism of everything - no good can exist without evil, no phenomenon can exist without it's internal contradiction. The same way the primitive tribal Argonian society living in the harsh environment of swamps, lacking good fertile land, mineral resources, advanced means of production and cheap labor force, generally lives by hunting and gathering - to own a slave there would mean to feed an extra mouth only, instead of making profit. This is the materialistic way to answer why slavery is not common in Argonia the way it is common in Morrowind.

So, the type of environment, the amount of resources and external circumstances define the type of economy, the type of economy defines the socio-economic formation, the socio-economic formation defines the social policy, the social policy defines the social standards of laws, religious and other views, ethics, views on good and evil, criteria of honor and shame, level of tolerance, etc. - everything. Finally, the social standards along with the particular individual's place of origin and everyday life, educational level, social class, family background and personal experience define the individual views (supportive, rejective, indifferent, tolerant, intolerant, etc.) on everything happening in the Mundus. This is why your character being, say, a Breton merchant seeking ways to trade his goods to a wider circle of consumers, will never convince a Dres slaver to abandon slavery, to pay his laborers with gold and to look at his slaves as equals. This is also why a former Argonian slave finds nothing horrific in becoming a slavemaster herself, in killing people in order to achieve her selfish goals, in becoming a member of the society that previously treated her as cattle.

"Slavery is bad!" - some will say. Here I have to remind you that the socio-economic formation of the chattel slavery brought us agriculture, masonry, writing system, codes of laws, classical poetry, wheel, roads, science and so many other good things we now call civilization. But that system was nonetheless a man eating system and as every other system it degraded and fell because of it's internal contradictions between the constantly developing economical life and the type of economical relations within it. It took capitalism 300 years to finally win it's bloody struggle against feudalism, to make people equal in their rights in spite of their nobility, to make them interested in working by letting them earn more money instead of fear of being beaten by a feudal. Such systems always degrade and fall rapidly followed by bloodshed as soon as they have no space to expand be it new sources of slaves, new lands or new markets. So, such things like that "Elves are so awful" always make me smile with sadness.. This is not the issue of awful Elves, but the issue of awful social system that makes them awful, the system that simultaneously is controlled by 223 sapiarchs and controls them, the sapiarchs who in turn control everything starting with knowledge, money, Thalmor, the royal hereditary system (and thus the monarchs whom they train for 3555 days) and ending with legal system, social views and overall policy directed to protecting their wealth and power only. It is the issue of the absolutist Dunmeri socio-economic formation based on slavery and theocracy because the harsh environment, constant wars and cheap labor force in Argonia make slavery and serfdom the most economically effective way to survive there. It is the issue of the human nations' classical feudal states who were forced to flee their sinking or freezing homelands and to fight for the living space in past, to fight for the right to be treated as living sentient beings instead of Ayleid's "talking tools". Etc., etc., etc.. It is the social environment that defines the social consciousness - not vice versa. Just remember that Khajiit raised by the Orcs to understand what I mean.

Inyhel

The condescending Altmer attitudes just makes killing them all the more satisfying.

I like how the races of ESO generally have parallels irl. At least in my mind:

Thalmor = White supremacists
High Elves = White people
Dark Elves = East Asians
Khajit/ Argonians = Black people
Redguards = Arabs
Imperials = Romans
Akaviri = Japanese
Nords = Nordic people

If you think about how close the the parallels are on all the different levels then this game can be quite politically incorrect...

Minyassa

Inyhel wrote: »

The condescending Altmer attitudes just makes killing them all the more satisfying.

I like how the races of ESO generally have parallels irl. At least in my mind:

Thalmor = White supremacists
High Elves = White people
Dark Elves = East Asians
Khajit/ Argonians = Black people
Redguards = Arabs
Imperials = Romans
Akaviri = Japanese
Nords = Nordic people

If you think about how close the the parallels are on all the different levels then this game can be quite politically incorrect...

I think that rating a game "M" is a magical charm against being accused of political incorrectness. I mean they have mobs in this game called "savages", so I don't think they're particularly concerned about how things can be interpreted. Industry standard I guess.

vestahls

Inyhel wrote: »

The condescending Altmer attitudes just makes killing them all the more satisfying.

I like how the races of ESO generally have parallels irl. At least in my mind:

Thalmor = White supremacists
High Elves = White people
Dark Elves = East Asians
Khajit/ Argonians = Black people
Redguards = Arabs
Imperials = Romans
Akaviri = Japanese
Nords = Nordic people

If you think about how close the the parallels are on all the different levels then this game can be quite politically incorrect...

There's been several people who speculated on the real life similes, plus some interviews with the devs (from Morrowind, I think) talking about their inspiration for the various races. Some of yours fit, others... not so much.

As we can see ourselves, and the devs have also said in the past, there is no singular inspiration for each race.

Thalmor = not an ethnic or racial group, a political movement for High Elves (and in ESO they're all for multi kulti, lol some white suprems)
High Elves = Chinese mixed with British, but there also also Greek elements
Dark Elves = Assyrians, Babylonians, mixed with Japanese
Khajit/ Argonians = not a singular group, Khajiits are kind of Indian and Turkish, and Argonians are Aztec and Mayan as the day is long (it's actually really offensive to see them referred to as "black people", first of all because black people are themselves split into very diverse groups with very different cultures, and Khajiits and Argonians could not be more different from each other)
Redguards = Berber people, Caribbeans, Jamaicans slightly
Imperials = Romans - yeah, this is right
Akaviri = Japanese - possibly but we've never really seen them
Nords = Nordic people - yes, this is right also

And you forgot
Bretons - who are British and French with some German (as the name implies, from Brittany)
Orcs - who actually have a pretty Japanese aesthetic sometimes, but also a nomadic component, like Mongolians
Wood elves - cannibals?

Ryuvain

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

You are free to accept or reject it, but here is what I think on that "Elves are so awful" topic. There are two types of understanding the lore, the Mundus - the materialistic and the idealistic ones. Using the first method a man, mer or a beastman relies only on experience, science, knowledge, on all the objects and phenomena that do have display in the Mundus, in reality. Using the latter type they rely on beliefs, someone's dominant opinion, propaganda, etc. A quick example: an appeal to the Daedric plots of Molag Bal is a materialistic thing in the Mundus, while explaining different processes referencing to, say, some weresharks' activities is an idealistic one. Because unlike the Daedra, the weresharks phenomenon has no display in reality even if we, as players playing a video game, would presume or even know that the reason to everything there were weresharks - weresharks have been still beyond the current abilities of cognition and experience in all TES games.

Since the Aurbis is an objective reality to all those who live there, since all the races of Tamriel are social beings rather than the individualistic ones, each society's nature in Tamriel is based on social classes and their division in terms of their relation to the means of production and thus their objective social interests. Thus everything that happens around a character in Tamriel can be explained using the materialistic method - the interest of the local dominant socio-economic class defines the image of a particular society, the image of the majority of a particular population that class is dominant over. An example: slavery in the House Dres lands (or House Telvanni ones - no matter) is an absolutely ok thing, slaves are not treated as conscious beings there, to the Dunmeri slavemasters they are just speaking organic property. And it is absolutely normal there and fully reconciles with the local ethics, laws and Dunmeri policy. On the other hand, there is no slavery in Argonia.

An idealistic way to explain it would be to call the Dres (and all the Dunmer as many players often do) as naturally lazy evil bloodsuckers, while Argonians would simply be described as humane and highly spiritual and kind persons by default, and that would be used as the reason to explain the issue. The materialistic way to explain it would be to point at the last stage, the absolutist one, of the Dunmeri feudal society consisting of it's dominant class of land owning feudals (the nobility of the Great Houses), and the class of the majority of the population their nobility rules over - serfs, slaves and other estates personally depended on their masters. House Dres is a society of brutal serfdom and slavery. The reason of this social model is the type of production and distribution of wealth - i.e. the local type of economy (it's the subsistence one). In turn the type of economy is defined by the local environment (climate, landscape, etc.), physical environmental resources (deposits of minerals, water, land suitable for agriculture, seas, trade routes, etc.), the amount of labor force (the quantity of possible laborers) and external influence (natural disasters, pandemics such as the Thrassian Plague of the past and the current Knahaten Flu, wars, overall economical and political situation in Tamriel, etc.).

House Dres rules over fertile lands bordering upon Argonia inhabited by cheap and effective labor force - this circumstance is the only objective reason of their status of a Great House, their power and their social structure, not those "sex, lies and murder" as Mephala might teach it. Because, say, House Hlaalu, on the other hand, lacks the same features being located in the middle of the trade routes, therefore they built a society based on commerce and craftsmanship - a much more progressive nearly capitalist society of merchants, bankers, engineers, architects who built, say, Suran and Balmora, Castle Ebonheart, etc. This is why they do not acknowledge slavery at all, though, their more progressive socio-economic formation also gave room to such a thing as the Camonna Tong. Yes, it is always a dualism of everything - no good can exist without evil, no phenomenon can exist without it's internal contradiction. The same way the primitive tribal Argonian society living in the harsh environment of swamps, lacking good fertile land, mineral resources, advanced means of production and cheap labor force, generally lives by hunting and gathering - to own a slave there would mean to feed an extra mouth only, instead of making profit. This is the materialistic way to answer why slavery is not common in Argonia the way it is common in Morrowind.

So, the type of environment, the amount of resources and external circumstances define the type of economy, the type of economy defines the socio-economic formation, the socio-economic formation defines the social policy, the social policy defines the social standards of laws, religious and other views, ethics, views on good and evil, criteria of honor and shame, level of tolerance, etc. - everything. Finally, the social standards along with the particular individual's place of origin and everyday life, educational level, social class, family background and personal experience define the individual views (supportive, rejective, indifferent, tolerant, intolerant, etc.) on everything happening in the Mundus. This is why your character being, say, a Breton merchant seeking ways to trade his goods to a wider circle of consumers, will never convince a Dres slaver to abandon slavery, to pay his laborers with gold and to look at his slaves as equals. This is also why a former Argonian slave finds nothing horrific in becoming a slavemaster herself, in killing people in order to achieve her selfish goals, in becoming a member of the society that previously treated her as cattle.

"Slavery is bad!" - some will say. Here I have to remind you that the socio-economic formation of the chattel slavery brought us agriculture, masonry, writing system, codes of laws, classical poetry, wheel, roads, science and so many other good things we now call civilization. But that system was nonetheless a man eating system and as every other system it degraded and fell because of it's internal contradictions between the constantly developing economical life and the type of economical relations within it. It took capitalism 300 years to finally win it's bloody struggle against feudalism, to make people equal in their rights in spite of their nobility, to make them interested in working by letting them earn more money instead of fear of being beaten by a feudal. Such systems always degrade and fall rapidly followed by bloodshed as soon as they have no space to expand be it new sources of slaves, new lands or new markets. So, such things like that "Elves are so awful" always make me smile with sadness.. This is not the issue of awful Elves, but the issue of awful social system that makes them awful, the system that simultaneously is controlled by 223 sapiarchs and controls them, the sapiarchs who in turn control everything starting with knowledge, money, Thalmor, the royal hereditary system (and thus the monarchs whom they train for 3555 days) and ending with legal system, social views and overall policy directed to protecting their wealth and power only. It is the issue of the absolutist Dunmeri socio-economic formation based on slavery and theocracy because the harsh environment, constant wars and cheap labor force in Argonia make slavery and serfdom the most economically effective way to survive there. It is the issue of the human nations' classical feudal states who were forced to flee their sinking or freezing homelands and to fight for the living space in past, to fight for the right to be treated as living sentient beings instead of Ayleid's "talking tools". Etc., etc., etc.. It is the social environment that defines the social consciousness - not vice versa. Just remember that Khajiit raised by the Orcs to understand what I mean.

Was that wall of text there just to imply slavery isn't all bad? Genuine question.

Aigym_Hlervu

Ryuvain wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

You are free to accept or reject it, but here is what I think on that "Elves are so awful" topic. There are two types of understanding the lore, the Mundus - the materialistic and the idealistic ones. Using the first method a man, mer or a beastman relies only on experience, science, knowledge, on all the objects and phenomena that do have display in the Mundus, in reality. Using the latter type they rely on beliefs, someone's dominant opinion, propaganda, etc. A quick example: an appeal to the Daedric plots of Molag Bal is a materialistic thing in the Mundus, while explaining different processes referencing to, say, some weresharks' activities is an idealistic one. Because unlike the Daedra, the weresharks phenomenon has no display in reality even if we, as players playing a video game, would presume or even know that the reason to everything there were weresharks - weresharks have been still beyond the current abilities of cognition and experience in all TES games.

Since the Aurbis is an objective reality to all those who live there, since all the races of Tamriel are social beings rather than the individualistic ones, each society's nature in Tamriel is based on social classes and their division in terms of their relation to the means of production and thus their objective social interests. Thus everything that happens around a character in Tamriel can be explained using the materialistic method - the interest of the local dominant socio-economic class defines the image of a particular society, the image of the majority of a particular population that class is dominant over. An example: slavery in the House Dres lands (or House Telvanni ones - no matter) is an absolutely ok thing, slaves are not treated as conscious beings there, to the Dunmeri slavemasters they are just speaking organic property. And it is absolutely normal there and fully reconciles with the local ethics, laws and Dunmeri policy. On the other hand, there is no slavery in Argonia.

An idealistic way to explain it would be to call the Dres (and all the Dunmer as many players often do) as naturally lazy evil bloodsuckers, while Argonians would simply be described as humane and highly spiritual and kind persons by default, and that would be used as the reason to explain the issue. The materialistic way to explain it would be to point at the last stage, the absolutist one, of the Dunmeri feudal society consisting of it's dominant class of land owning feudals (the nobility of the Great Houses), and the class of the majority of the population their nobility rules over - serfs, slaves and other estates personally depended on their masters. House Dres is a society of brutal serfdom and slavery. The reason of this social model is the type of production and distribution of wealth - i.e. the local type of economy (it's the subsistence one). In turn the type of economy is defined by the local environment (climate, landscape, etc.), physical environmental resources (deposits of minerals, water, land suitable for agriculture, seas, trade routes, etc.), the amount of labor force (the quantity of possible laborers) and external influence (natural disasters, pandemics such as the Thrassian Plague of the past and the current Knahaten Flu, wars, overall economical and political situation in Tamriel, etc.).

House Dres rules over fertile lands bordering upon Argonia inhabited by cheap and effective labor force - this circumstance is the only objective reason of their status of a Great House, their power and their social structure, not those "sex, lies and murder" as Mephala might teach it. Because, say, House Hlaalu, on the other hand, lacks the same features being located in the middle of the trade routes, therefore they built a society based on commerce and craftsmanship - a much more progressive nearly capitalist society of merchants, bankers, engineers, architects who built, say, Suran and Balmora, Castle Ebonheart, etc. This is why they do not acknowledge slavery at all, though, their more progressive socio-economic formation also gave room to such a thing as the Camonna Tong. Yes, it is always a dualism of everything - no good can exist without evil, no phenomenon can exist without it's internal contradiction. The same way the primitive tribal Argonian society living in the harsh environment of swamps, lacking good fertile land, mineral resources, advanced means of production and cheap labor force, generally lives by hunting and gathering - to own a slave there would mean to feed an extra mouth only, instead of making profit. This is the materialistic way to answer why slavery is not common in Argonia the way it is common in Morrowind.

So, the type of environment, the amount of resources and external circumstances define the type of economy, the type of economy defines the socio-economic formation, the socio-economic formation defines the social policy, the social policy defines the social standards of laws, religious and other views, ethics, views on good and evil, criteria of honor and shame, level of tolerance, etc. - everything. Finally, the social standards along with the particular individual's place of origin and everyday life, educational level, social class, family background and personal experience define the individual views (supportive, rejective, indifferent, tolerant, intolerant, etc.) on everything happening in the Mundus. This is why your character being, say, a Breton merchant seeking ways to trade his goods to a wider circle of consumers, will never convince a Dres slaver to abandon slavery, to pay his laborers with gold and to look at his slaves as equals. This is also why a former Argonian slave finds nothing horrific in becoming a slavemaster herself, in killing people in order to achieve her selfish goals, in becoming a member of the society that previously treated her as cattle.

"Slavery is bad!" - some will say. Here I have to remind you that the socio-economic formation of the chattel slavery brought us agriculture, masonry, writing system, codes of laws, classical poetry, wheel, roads, science and so many other good things we now call civilization. But that system was nonetheless a man eating system and as every other system it degraded and fell because of it's internal contradictions between the constantly developing economical life and the type of economical relations within it. It took capitalism 300 years to finally win it's bloody struggle against feudalism, to make people equal in their rights in spite of their nobility, to make them interested in working by letting them earn more money instead of fear of being beaten by a feudal. Such systems always degrade and fall rapidly followed by bloodshed as soon as they have no space to expand be it new sources of slaves, new lands or new markets. So, such things like that "Elves are so awful" always make me smile with sadness.. This is not the issue of awful Elves, but the issue of awful social system that makes them awful, the system that simultaneously is controlled by 223 sapiarchs and controls them, the sapiarchs who in turn control everything starting with knowledge, money, Thalmor, the royal hereditary system (and thus the monarchs whom they train for 3555 days) and ending with legal system, social views and overall policy directed to protecting their wealth and power only. It is the issue of the absolutist Dunmeri socio-economic formation based on slavery and theocracy because the harsh environment, constant wars and cheap labor force in Argonia make slavery and serfdom the most economically effective way to survive there. It is the issue of the human nations' classical feudal states who were forced to flee their sinking or freezing homelands and to fight for the living space in past, to fight for the right to be treated as living sentient beings instead of Ayleid's "talking tools". Etc., etc., etc.. It is the social environment that defines the social consciousness - not vice versa. Just remember that Khajiit raised by the Orcs to understand what I mean.

Was that wall of text there just to imply slavery isn't all bad? Genuine question.

A strange question. That wall of text was to appeal to those silly statements like "Elves/Altmer/Dunmer/Americans/Germans/Russians/Chinese/North Koreans etc. are so awful". It was to remind of something people study in schools that there are no bad nations, all the social processes, be they real or fictional, are occuring because of the social development laws and that development is the reason why a particular society acts one way instead of the other. Slavery in the Dunmeri society was just an example, to make it easier to understand that this awful thing exists due to objective reasons instead of some "awful Dunmeri slavers who hate people". It was written since the very thought that "Some nation is bad" still exists in someone's mind in spite of the XX century history, scientific develoment, and school education that should have prevented such way of thinking and give a proper picture of what's happening around. I wrote obvious things there, something we all know since our school and university years. And since I play a Dunmer there, I was in my full right to give a much less polite answer. But nonetheless, I took my time and retold a part of the school program in a very brief and polite way. That wall of text was to remind the real source of all the social troubles since those idealistic delusions like "Some races or nations are bad" still exists.

Ryuvain

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

You are free to accept or reject it, but here is what I think on that "Elves are so awful" topic. There are two types of understanding the lore, the Mundus - the materialistic and the idealistic ones. Using the first method a man, mer or a beastman relies only on experience, science, knowledge, on all the objects and phenomena that do have display in the Mundus, in reality. Using the latter type they rely on beliefs, someone's dominant opinion, propaganda, etc. A quick example: an appeal to the Daedric plots of Molag Bal is a materialistic thing in the Mundus, while explaining different processes referencing to, say, some weresharks' activities is an idealistic one. Because unlike the Daedra, the weresharks phenomenon has no display in reality even if we, as players playing a video game, would presume or even know that the reason to everything there were weresharks - weresharks have been still beyond the current abilities of cognition and experience in all TES games.

Since the Aurbis is an objective reality to all those who live there, since all the races of Tamriel are social beings rather than the individualistic ones, each society's nature in Tamriel is based on social classes and their division in terms of their relation to the means of production and thus their objective social interests. Thus everything that happens around a character in Tamriel can be explained using the materialistic method - the interest of the local dominant socio-economic class defines the image of a particular society, the image of the majority of a particular population that class is dominant over. An example: slavery in the House Dres lands (or House Telvanni ones - no matter) is an absolutely ok thing, slaves are not treated as conscious beings there, to the Dunmeri slavemasters they are just speaking organic property. And it is absolutely normal there and fully reconciles with the local ethics, laws and Dunmeri policy. On the other hand, there is no slavery in Argonia.

An idealistic way to explain it would be to call the Dres (and all the Dunmer as many players often do) as naturally lazy evil bloodsuckers, while Argonians would simply be described as humane and highly spiritual and kind persons by default, and that would be used as the reason to explain the issue. The materialistic way to explain it would be to point at the last stage, the absolutist one, of the Dunmeri feudal society consisting of it's dominant class of land owning feudals (the nobility of the Great Houses), and the class of the majority of the population their nobility rules over - serfs, slaves and other estates personally depended on their masters. House Dres is a society of brutal serfdom and slavery. The reason of this social model is the type of production and distribution of wealth - i.e. the local type of economy (it's the subsistence one). In turn the type of economy is defined by the local environment (climate, landscape, etc.), physical environmental resources (deposits of minerals, water, land suitable for agriculture, seas, trade routes, etc.), the amount of labor force (the quantity of possible laborers) and external influence (natural disasters, pandemics such as the Thrassian Plague of the past and the current Knahaten Flu, wars, overall economical and political situation in Tamriel, etc.).

House Dres rules over fertile lands bordering upon Argonia inhabited by cheap and effective labor force - this circumstance is the only objective reason of their status of a Great House, their power and their social structure, not those "sex, lies and murder" as Mephala might teach it. Because, say, House Hlaalu, on the other hand, lacks the same features being located in the middle of the trade routes, therefore they built a society based on commerce and craftsmanship - a much more progressive nearly capitalist society of merchants, bankers, engineers, architects who built, say, Suran and Balmora, Castle Ebonheart, etc. This is why they do not acknowledge slavery at all, though, their more progressive socio-economic formation also gave room to such a thing as the Camonna Tong. Yes, it is always a dualism of everything - no good can exist without evil, no phenomenon can exist without it's internal contradiction. The same way the primitive tribal Argonian society living in the harsh environment of swamps, lacking good fertile land, mineral resources, advanced means of production and cheap labor force, generally lives by hunting and gathering - to own a slave there would mean to feed an extra mouth only, instead of making profit. This is the materialistic way to answer why slavery is not common in Argonia the way it is common in Morrowind.

So, the type of environment, the amount of resources and external circumstances define the type of economy, the type of economy defines the socio-economic formation, the socio-economic formation defines the social policy, the social policy defines the social standards of laws, religious and other views, ethics, views on good and evil, criteria of honor and shame, level of tolerance, etc. - everything. Finally, the social standards along with the particular individual's place of origin and everyday life, educational level, social class, family background and personal experience define the individual views (supportive, rejective, indifferent, tolerant, intolerant, etc.) on everything happening in the Mundus. This is why your character being, say, a Breton merchant seeking ways to trade his goods to a wider circle of consumers, will never convince a Dres slaver to abandon slavery, to pay his laborers with gold and to look at his slaves as equals. This is also why a former Argonian slave finds nothing horrific in becoming a slavemaster herself, in killing people in order to achieve her selfish goals, in becoming a member of the society that previously treated her as cattle.

"Slavery is bad!" - some will say. Here I have to remind you that the socio-economic formation of the chattel slavery brought us agriculture, masonry, writing system, codes of laws, classical poetry, wheel, roads, science and so many other good things we now call civilization. But that system was nonetheless a man eating system and as every other system it degraded and fell because of it's internal contradictions between the constantly developing economical life and the type of economical relations within it. It took capitalism 300 years to finally win it's bloody struggle against feudalism, to make people equal in their rights in spite of their nobility, to make them interested in working by letting them earn more money instead of fear of being beaten by a feudal. Such systems always degrade and fall rapidly followed by bloodshed as soon as they have no space to expand be it new sources of slaves, new lands or new markets. So, such things like that "Elves are so awful" always make me smile with sadness.. This is not the issue of awful Elves, but the issue of awful social system that makes them awful, the system that simultaneously is controlled by 223 sapiarchs and controls them, the sapiarchs who in turn control everything starting with knowledge, money, Thalmor, the royal hereditary system (and thus the monarchs whom they train for 3555 days) and ending with legal system, social views and overall policy directed to protecting their wealth and power only. It is the issue of the absolutist Dunmeri socio-economic formation based on slavery and theocracy because the harsh environment, constant wars and cheap labor force in Argonia make slavery and serfdom the most economically effective way to survive there. It is the issue of the human nations' classical feudal states who were forced to flee their sinking or freezing homelands and to fight for the living space in past, to fight for the right to be treated as living sentient beings instead of Ayleid's "talking tools". Etc., etc., etc.. It is the social environment that defines the social consciousness - not vice versa. Just remember that Khajiit raised by the Orcs to understand what I mean.

Was that wall of text there just to imply slavery isn't all bad? Genuine question.

A strange question. That wall of text was to appeal to those silly statements like "Elves/Altmer/Dunmer/Americans/Germans/Russians/Chinese/North Koreans etc. are so awful". It was to remind of something people study in schools that there are no bad nations, all the social processes, be they real or fictional, are occuring because of the social development laws and that development is the reason why a particular society acts one way instead of the other. Slavery in the Dunmeri society was just an example, to make it easier to understand that this awful thing exists due to objective reasons instead of some "awful Dunmeri slavers who hate people". It was written since the very thought that "Some nation is bad" still exists in someone's mind in spite of the XX century history, scientific develoment, and school education that should have prevented such way of thinking and give a proper picture of what's happening around. I wrote obvious things there, something we all know since our school and university years. And since I play a Dunmer there, I was in my full right to give a much less polite answer. But nonetheless, I took my time and retold a part of the school program in a very brief and polite way. That wall of text was to remind the real source of all the social troubles since those idealistic delusions like "Some races or nations are bad" still exists.

You know, I do agree with what you said there. Everyone always believes they are in the right. But I do think you are missing a few things, change is one of them.

Slavery is still a horrible ideal because of what it entails, believing that you are above and deserve to be their master. That ideal is what slavery is, was, and will always be. Even in real life, they used enslavement on natives because they believed that they were under them and didn't deserve rights.

Because of this, and because of how elves still think they are superior is what I hate. This isn't all elves of course, but if it's their general society and main ideals, then that's something to be disliked. To ignore it and let it slide is exactly the mistake that hinders change for the better.

By all means, I can get past my hate and general dislike if they moved past being superior and unpleasant. But until then I'm not going to ignore it because they believe in it.

vestahls

Ryuvain wrote: »

Because of this, and because of how elves still think they are superior is what I hate. This isn't all elves of course, but if it's their general society and main ideals, then that's something to be disliked. To ignore it and let it slide is exactly the mistake that hinders change for the better.

By all means, I can get past my hate and general dislike if they moved past being superior and unpleasant. But until then I'm not going to ignore it because they believe in it.

In this fantasy setting though, elves really are superior. And from a mechanical perspective, if it's not them it's going to be others, cause there's always a best-in-slot. So in a game, superiority is a given at any point, and when all races are the same the game's just boring.

But yeah, elves don't believe it blindly, they know it. It's a fantasy game, no reason to get real-life upset over it.

Ryuvain

vestahls wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Because of this, and because of how elves still think they are superior is what I hate. This isn't all elves of course, but if it's their general society and main ideals, then that's something to be disliked. To ignore it and let it slide is exactly the mistake that hinders change for the better.

By all means, I can get past my hate and general dislike if they moved past being superior and unpleasant. But until then I'm not going to ignore it because they believe in it.

In this fantasy setting though, elves really are superior. And from a mechanical perspective, if it's not them it's going to be others, cause there's always a best-in-slot. So in a game, superiority is a given at any point, and when all races are the same the game's just boring.

But yeah, elves don't believe it blindly, they know it. It's a fantasy game, no reason to get real-life upset over it.

See, that's what you bellieve. That elves are superior. I obviously disagree since any race can beat them. No one is truly above all.

When did I say I was upset? In-game I can say I hate or dislike elves attitude, same as you can say that you love elves and that they are better than everyone else.

vestahls

Ryuvain wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Because of this, and because of how elves still think they are superior is what I hate. This isn't all elves of course, but if it's their general society and main ideals, then that's something to be disliked. To ignore it and let it slide is exactly the mistake that hinders change for the better.

By all means, I can get past my hate and general dislike if they moved past being superior and unpleasant. But until then I'm not going to ignore it because they believe in it.

In this fantasy setting though, elves really are superior. And from a mechanical perspective, if it's not them it's going to be others, cause there's always a best-in-slot. So in a game, superiority is a given at any point, and when all races are the same the game's just boring.

But yeah, elves don't believe it blindly, they know it. It's a fantasy game, no reason to get real-life upset over it.

See, that's what you bellieve. That elves are superior. I obviously disagree since any race can beat them. No one is truly above all.

When did I say I was upset? In-game I can say I hate or dislike elves attitude, same as you can say that you love elves and that they are better than everyone else.

I literally don't believe it, it's canon Aldmer are not only descended from the Aedra, who created the world, but they are also the source of most of the civilization that's used on Tamriel. Even Kirkbride said that "in the end, they will win".

You can definitely have heroic individuals who come from any background, and who overcome adversity - and when there's in particular a lot of adversity against them and they beat the odds, it makes for an even better story. But in order for there to be adversity, there needs to be something above you for you to overcome. There is always something or someone above you, as the player-character.

Sorry if I was mistaken though, I didn't think we were having an in-game or in-character discussion?

Aigym_Hlervu

Ryuvain wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

You are free to accept or reject it, but here is what I think on that "Elves are so awful" topic. There are two types of understanding the lore, the Mundus - the materialistic and the idealistic ones. Using the first method a man, mer or a beastman relies only on experience, science, knowledge, on all the objects and phenomena that do have display in the Mundus, in reality. Using the latter type they rely on beliefs, someone's dominant opinion, propaganda, etc. A quick example: an appeal to the Daedric plots of Molag Bal is a materialistic thing in the Mundus, while explaining different processes referencing to, say, some weresharks' activities is an idealistic one. Because unlike the Daedra, the weresharks phenomenon has no display in reality even if we, as players playing a video game, would presume or even know that the reason to everything there were weresharks - weresharks have been still beyond the current abilities of cognition and experience in all TES games.

Since the Aurbis is an objective reality to all those who live there, since all the races of Tamriel are social beings rather than the individualistic ones, each society's nature in Tamriel is based on social classes and their division in terms of their relation to the means of production and thus their objective social interests. Thus everything that happens around a character in Tamriel can be explained using the materialistic method - the interest of the local dominant socio-economic class defines the image of a particular society, the image of the majority of a particular population that class is dominant over. An example: slavery in the House Dres lands (or House Telvanni ones - no matter) is an absolutely ok thing, slaves are not treated as conscious beings there, to the Dunmeri slavemasters they are just speaking organic property. And it is absolutely normal there and fully reconciles with the local ethics, laws and Dunmeri policy. On the other hand, there is no slavery in Argonia.

An idealistic way to explain it would be to call the Dres (and all the Dunmer as many players often do) as naturally lazy evil bloodsuckers, while Argonians would simply be described as humane and highly spiritual and kind persons by default, and that would be used as the reason to explain the issue. The materialistic way to explain it would be to point at the last stage, the absolutist one, of the Dunmeri feudal society consisting of it's dominant class of land owning feudals (the nobility of the Great Houses), and the class of the majority of the population their nobility rules over - serfs, slaves and other estates personally depended on their masters. House Dres is a society of brutal serfdom and slavery. The reason of this social model is the type of production and distribution of wealth - i.e. the local type of economy (it's the subsistence one). In turn the type of economy is defined by the local environment (climate, landscape, etc.), physical environmental resources (deposits of minerals, water, land suitable for agriculture, seas, trade routes, etc.), the amount of labor force (the quantity of possible laborers) and external influence (natural disasters, pandemics such as the Thrassian Plague of the past and the current Knahaten Flu, wars, overall economical and political situation in Tamriel, etc.).

House Dres rules over fertile lands bordering upon Argonia inhabited by cheap and effective labor force - this circumstance is the only objective reason of their status of a Great House, their power and their social structure, not those "sex, lies and murder" as Mephala might teach it. Because, say, House Hlaalu, on the other hand, lacks the same features being located in the middle of the trade routes, therefore they built a society based on commerce and craftsmanship - a much more progressive nearly capitalist society of merchants, bankers, engineers, architects who built, say, Suran and Balmora, Castle Ebonheart, etc. This is why they do not acknowledge slavery at all, though, their more progressive socio-economic formation also gave room to such a thing as the Camonna Tong. Yes, it is always a dualism of everything - no good can exist without evil, no phenomenon can exist without it's internal contradiction. The same way the primitive tribal Argonian society living in the harsh environment of swamps, lacking good fertile land, mineral resources, advanced means of production and cheap labor force, generally lives by hunting and gathering - to own a slave there would mean to feed an extra mouth only, instead of making profit. This is the materialistic way to answer why slavery is not common in Argonia the way it is common in Morrowind.

So, the type of environment, the amount of resources and external circumstances define the type of economy, the type of economy defines the socio-economic formation, the socio-economic formation defines the social policy, the social policy defines the social standards of laws, religious and other views, ethics, views on good and evil, criteria of honor and shame, level of tolerance, etc. - everything. Finally, the social standards along with the particular individual's place of origin and everyday life, educational level, social class, family background and personal experience define the individual views (supportive, rejective, indifferent, tolerant, intolerant, etc.) on everything happening in the Mundus. This is why your character being, say, a Breton merchant seeking ways to trade his goods to a wider circle of consumers, will never convince a Dres slaver to abandon slavery, to pay his laborers with gold and to look at his slaves as equals. This is also why a former Argonian slave finds nothing horrific in becoming a slavemaster herself, in killing people in order to achieve her selfish goals, in becoming a member of the society that previously treated her as cattle.

"Slavery is bad!" - some will say. Here I have to remind you that the socio-economic formation of the chattel slavery brought us agriculture, masonry, writing system, codes of laws, classical poetry, wheel, roads, science and so many other good things we now call civilization. But that system was nonetheless a man eating system and as every other system it degraded and fell because of it's internal contradictions between the constantly developing economical life and the type of economical relations within it. It took capitalism 300 years to finally win it's bloody struggle against feudalism, to make people equal in their rights in spite of their nobility, to make them interested in working by letting them earn more money instead of fear of being beaten by a feudal. Such systems always degrade and fall rapidly followed by bloodshed as soon as they have no space to expand be it new sources of slaves, new lands or new markets. So, such things like that "Elves are so awful" always make me smile with sadness.. This is not the issue of awful Elves, but the issue of awful social system that makes them awful, the system that simultaneously is controlled by 223 sapiarchs and controls them, the sapiarchs who in turn control everything starting with knowledge, money, Thalmor, the royal hereditary system (and thus the monarchs whom they train for 3555 days) and ending with legal system, social views and overall policy directed to protecting their wealth and power only. It is the issue of the absolutist Dunmeri socio-economic formation based on slavery and theocracy because the harsh environment, constant wars and cheap labor force in Argonia make slavery and serfdom the most economically effective way to survive there. It is the issue of the human nations' classical feudal states who were forced to flee their sinking or freezing homelands and to fight for the living space in past, to fight for the right to be treated as living sentient beings instead of Ayleid's "talking tools". Etc., etc., etc.. It is the social environment that defines the social consciousness - not vice versa. Just remember that Khajiit raised by the Orcs to understand what I mean.

Was that wall of text there just to imply slavery isn't all bad? Genuine question.

A strange question. That wall of text was to appeal to those silly statements like "Elves/Altmer/Dunmer/Americans/Germans/Russians/Chinese/North Koreans etc. are so awful". It was to remind of something people study in schools that there are no bad nations, all the social processes, be they real or fictional, are occuring because of the social development laws and that development is the reason why a particular society acts one way instead of the other. Slavery in the Dunmeri society was just an example, to make it easier to understand that this awful thing exists due to objective reasons instead of some "awful Dunmeri slavers who hate people". It was written since the very thought that "Some nation is bad" still exists in someone's mind in spite of the XX century history, scientific develoment, and school education that should have prevented such way of thinking and give a proper picture of what's happening around. I wrote obvious things there, something we all know since our school and university years. And since I play a Dunmer there, I was in my full right to give a much less polite answer. But nonetheless, I took my time and retold a part of the school program in a very brief and polite way. That wall of text was to remind the real source of all the social troubles since those idealistic delusions like "Some races or nations are bad" still exists.

You know, I do agree with what you said there. Everyone always believes they are in the right. But I do think you are missing a few things, change is one of them.

Slavery is still a horrible ideal because of what it entails, believing that you are above and deserve to be their master. That ideal is what slavery is, was, and will always be. Even in real life, they used enslavement on natives because they believed that they were under them and didn't deserve rights.

Because of this, and because of how elves still think they are superior is what I hate. This isn't all elves of course, but if it's their general society and main ideals, then that's something to be disliked. To ignore it and let it slide is exactly the mistake that hinders change for the better.

By all means, I can get past my hate and general dislike if they moved past being superior and unpleasant. But until then I'm not going to ignore it because they believe in it.

Yes, you're absolutely correct, I have almost nothing to add to your words. To say it very briefly, the natural environment along with the technical and technological development determines the type of economy (the ways of of production and distribution of the social wealth), the type of economy determines the social relations, the social relations determine the social classes, the dominant social class determines the type of the state and everything happening in a particular society - laws, religion, ethics, views on good and evil, social features, mind set, etc. And since every process in the world is characterized by it's own internal contradictions in it, the socio-economic development process is not an exception - as you have said it, everything changes, and the first thing changeable in any society is economy, the ways of production and distribution of social wealth. And then it comes to the major contradiction of where the economical level is way ahead of the level of social relations, e.g. you can't have a highly developed commercial company in a chattel slavery society, a slaver state - if that happens then the society turns to extreme things like the ones happened in America in 1861 - 1865, in Russia of 1917 - 1922, Japan, Germany, etc., etc. This process is unavoidable.. But such is the price of progress!..

And slavery - yes, it still exists because every socio-economic formation always contains the worst features of it's predecessors. Those features are not dominant, but still they exist, of course. Slavery is not just a lone example of it - you just remember that land owning hereditary customs of the feudal societies when only the nobility could own the primary means of production, i.e. lands. The same thing happens today when only the children of the multibillionairs get all the assets and power of their parents. Remember those well known modern political dynasties who have been ruling the world for the recent 50 - 60 years. Another example is wars: slaves were the goal of ancient wars, lands were the objective in feudal wars, global markets and financial resources derived out of the natural ones are the goal of the modern ones. The examples are numerous - such features are always present. It is always a dualism - a progression forward always meets a resistance directed backwards. I'm glad you understood me right, @Ryuvain, it's always a pleasure to talk to an educated man. Thank you for your reply, mate.

vestahls wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Because of this, and because of how elves still think they are superior is what I hate. This isn't all elves of course, but if it's their general society and main ideals, then that's something to be disliked. To ignore it and let it slide is exactly the mistake that hinders change for the better.

By all means, I can get past my hate and general dislike if they moved past being superior and unpleasant. But until then I'm not going to ignore it because they believe in it.

In this fantasy setting though, elves really are superior. And from a mechanical perspective, if it's not them it's going to be others, cause there's always a best-in-slot. So in a game, superiority is a given at any point, and when all races are the same the game's just boring.

But yeah, elves don't believe it blindly, they know it. It's a fantasy game, no reason to get real-life upset over it.

Hey, Vestahls! In what way Elves are superior? The life span? Well, then we have to admit the turtles living 150 - 200 years are way more superior than humans. Perhaps it is their racial skills that make them superior? Well, yes, the Syrabane's Boon and the Elemental Expert gradually increase their Max Magicka and Spell Damage. But they lack, say, the Conditioning and the Adrenaline Rush of Redguards that increases their Max Stamina and it's recovery or the Unflinching Rage and the Swift Warrior of Orcs that make them a far more superior warriors than Altmer. At the same time that were exactly the Altmeri warriors who defeated the Empire in the 4th Era. But still, they were not that good to defeat the Redguard military and were unable to stop Tiber Septim before he used Numidium. Perhaps, Altmer are superior individually? Well.. I killed so many of them in Cyrod and in Shadowfen being a Dunmer, I also recall my colleague Neramo - Neramo! Is he really that superior to, say, Master Gothren in, say, magical arts? I don't think so.

Perhaps some Altmeri gods are superior? Well, speaking of the modern times the ALMSIVI are all alive and powerful while the Altmeri ones are just in the memory of their people. Perhaps the divine ancestry makes Altmer superior? Well, you know it quite well, that the Altmeri religion and the current Tamrielic history is all written and based on the Sapiarch writings. The entire historical chronology is based on the writings of the Sapiarch Aicantar of Shimmerene - what did you expect to read there except of the Altmeri superiority?

Some time ago I developed the New Elven Chronology. A Theory (it is devided on purely theoretical part and the list of dates). The current results of my research showed it that Ayleids were the most ancient Tamrielic folk, the real "Aldmer" of the chronicles who gave way to all other Merethic nations, while the first documented facts of the purely Altmeri activities are dated back only to the 1E 500s when the Corelanya Altmeri clan tried to inhabit the Ayleid ruins in Hammerfell. So, superiority is a very pointy thing, it cannot be total and eternal. This is what I think on that matter. Though, I have to admit, that I do support the Dunmeri policy myself there since I'm a certain Dunmeri land owner there - so I can understand your views on the Altmeri superiority and don't need explanations and proofs . We all make our own choices in this game, indeed.

Ryuvain

vestahls wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Because of this, and because of how elves still think they are superior is what I hate. This isn't all elves of course, but if it's their general society and main ideals, then that's something to be disliked. To ignore it and let it slide is exactly the mistake that hinders change for the better.

By all means, I can get past my hate and general dislike if they moved past being superior and unpleasant. But until then I'm not going to ignore it because they believe in it.

In this fantasy setting though, elves really are superior. And from a mechanical perspective, if it's not them it's going to be others, cause there's always a best-in-slot. So in a game, superiority is a given at any point, and when all races are the same the game's just boring.

But yeah, elves don't believe it blindly, they know it. It's a fantasy game, no reason to get real-life upset over it.

See, that's what you bellieve. That elves are superior. I obviously disagree since any race can beat them. No one is truly above all.

When did I say I was upset? In-game I can say I hate or dislike elves attitude, same as you can say that you love elves and that they are better than everyone else.

I literally don't believe it, it's canon Aldmer are not only descended from the Aedra, who created the world, but they are also the source of most of the civilization that's used on Tamriel. Even Kirkbride said that "in the end, they will win".

You can definitely have heroic individuals who come from any background, and who overcome adversity - and when there's in particular a lot of adversity against them and they beat the odds, it makes for an even better story. But in order for there to be adversity, there needs to be something above you for you to overcome. There is always something or someone above you, as the player-character.

Sorry if I was mistaken though, I didn't think we were having an in-game or in-character discussion?

I think you're buying into their beliefs too much. If anything all races were created from some God in the lore. That's like saying that if you enslave a populace you helped them because you forced your lifestyle into them.

Frankly I'll leave you to that. The parallels I see here are too disturbing.

Ryuvain

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

You are free to accept or reject it, but here is what I think on that "Elves are so awful" topic. There are two types of understanding the lore, the Mundus - the materialistic and the idealistic ones. Using the first method a man, mer or a beastman relies only on experience, science, knowledge, on all the objects and phenomena that do have display in the Mundus, in reality. Using the latter type they rely on beliefs, someone's dominant opinion, propaganda, etc. A quick example: an appeal to the Daedric plots of Molag Bal is a materialistic thing in the Mundus, while explaining different processes referencing to, say, some weresharks' activities is an idealistic one. Because unlike the Daedra, the weresharks phenomenon has no display in reality even if we, as players playing a video game, would presume or even know that the reason to everything there were weresharks - weresharks have been still beyond the current abilities of cognition and experience in all TES games.

Since the Aurbis is an objective reality to all those who live there, since all the races of Tamriel are social beings rather than the individualistic ones, each society's nature in Tamriel is based on social classes and their division in terms of their relation to the means of production and thus their objective social interests. Thus everything that happens around a character in Tamriel can be explained using the materialistic method - the interest of the local dominant socio-economic class defines the image of a particular society, the image of the majority of a particular population that class is dominant over. An example: slavery in the House Dres lands (or House Telvanni ones - no matter) is an absolutely ok thing, slaves are not treated as conscious beings there, to the Dunmeri slavemasters they are just speaking organic property. And it is absolutely normal there and fully reconciles with the local ethics, laws and Dunmeri policy. On the other hand, there is no slavery in Argonia.

An idealistic way to explain it would be to call the Dres (and all the Dunmer as many players often do) as naturally lazy evil bloodsuckers, while Argonians would simply be described as humane and highly spiritual and kind persons by default, and that would be used as the reason to explain the issue. The materialistic way to explain it would be to point at the last stage, the absolutist one, of the Dunmeri feudal society consisting of it's dominant class of land owning feudals (the nobility of the Great Houses), and the class of the majority of the population their nobility rules over - serfs, slaves and other estates personally depended on their masters. House Dres is a society of brutal serfdom and slavery. The reason of this social model is the type of production and distribution of wealth - i.e. the local type of economy (it's the subsistence one). In turn the type of economy is defined by the local environment (climate, landscape, etc.), physical environmental resources (deposits of minerals, water, land suitable for agriculture, seas, trade routes, etc.), the amount of labor force (the quantity of possible laborers) and external influence (natural disasters, pandemics such as the Thrassian Plague of the past and the current Knahaten Flu, wars, overall economical and political situation in Tamriel, etc.).

House Dres rules over fertile lands bordering upon Argonia inhabited by cheap and effective labor force - this circumstance is the only objective reason of their status of a Great House, their power and their social structure, not those "sex, lies and murder" as Mephala might teach it. Because, say, House Hlaalu, on the other hand, lacks the same features being located in the middle of the trade routes, therefore they built a society based on commerce and craftsmanship - a much more progressive nearly capitalist society of merchants, bankers, engineers, architects who built, say, Suran and Balmora, Castle Ebonheart, etc. This is why they do not acknowledge slavery at all, though, their more progressive socio-economic formation also gave room to such a thing as the Camonna Tong. Yes, it is always a dualism of everything - no good can exist without evil, no phenomenon can exist without it's internal contradiction. The same way the primitive tribal Argonian society living in the harsh environment of swamps, lacking good fertile land, mineral resources, advanced means of production and cheap labor force, generally lives by hunting and gathering - to own a slave there would mean to feed an extra mouth only, instead of making profit. This is the materialistic way to answer why slavery is not common in Argonia the way it is common in Morrowind.

So, the type of environment, the amount of resources and external circumstances define the type of economy, the type of economy defines the socio-economic formation, the socio-economic formation defines the social policy, the social policy defines the social standards of laws, religious and other views, ethics, views on good and evil, criteria of honor and shame, level of tolerance, etc. - everything. Finally, the social standards along with the particular individual's place of origin and everyday life, educational level, social class, family background and personal experience define the individual views (supportive, rejective, indifferent, tolerant, intolerant, etc.) on everything happening in the Mundus. This is why your character being, say, a Breton merchant seeking ways to trade his goods to a wider circle of consumers, will never convince a Dres slaver to abandon slavery, to pay his laborers with gold and to look at his slaves as equals. This is also why a former Argonian slave finds nothing horrific in becoming a slavemaster herself, in killing people in order to achieve her selfish goals, in becoming a member of the society that previously treated her as cattle.

"Slavery is bad!" - some will say. Here I have to remind you that the socio-economic formation of the chattel slavery brought us agriculture, masonry, writing system, codes of laws, classical poetry, wheel, roads, science and so many other good things we now call civilization. But that system was nonetheless a man eating system and as every other system it degraded and fell because of it's internal contradictions between the constantly developing economical life and the type of economical relations within it. It took capitalism 300 years to finally win it's bloody struggle against feudalism, to make people equal in their rights in spite of their nobility, to make them interested in working by letting them earn more money instead of fear of being beaten by a feudal. Such systems always degrade and fall rapidly followed by bloodshed as soon as they have no space to expand be it new sources of slaves, new lands or new markets. So, such things like that "Elves are so awful" always make me smile with sadness.. This is not the issue of awful Elves, but the issue of awful social system that makes them awful, the system that simultaneously is controlled by 223 sapiarchs and controls them, the sapiarchs who in turn control everything starting with knowledge, money, Thalmor, the royal hereditary system (and thus the monarchs whom they train for 3555 days) and ending with legal system, social views and overall policy directed to protecting their wealth and power only. It is the issue of the absolutist Dunmeri socio-economic formation based on slavery and theocracy because the harsh environment, constant wars and cheap labor force in Argonia make slavery and serfdom the most economically effective way to survive there. It is the issue of the human nations' classical feudal states who were forced to flee their sinking or freezing homelands and to fight for the living space in past, to fight for the right to be treated as living sentient beings instead of Ayleid's "talking tools". Etc., etc., etc.. It is the social environment that defines the social consciousness - not vice versa. Just remember that Khajiit raised by the Orcs to understand what I mean.

Was that wall of text there just to imply slavery isn't all bad? Genuine question.

A strange question. That wall of text was to appeal to those silly statements like "Elves/Altmer/Dunmer/Americans/Germans/Russians/Chinese/North Koreans etc. are so awful". It was to remind of something people study in schools that there are no bad nations, all the social processes, be they real or fictional, are occuring because of the social development laws and that development is the reason why a particular society acts one way instead of the other. Slavery in the Dunmeri society was just an example, to make it easier to understand that this awful thing exists due to objective reasons instead of some "awful Dunmeri slavers who hate people". It was written since the very thought that "Some nation is bad" still exists in someone's mind in spite of the XX century history, scientific develoment, and school education that should have prevented such way of thinking and give a proper picture of what's happening around. I wrote obvious things there, something we all know since our school and university years. And since I play a Dunmer there, I was in my full right to give a much less polite answer. But nonetheless, I took my time and retold a part of the school program in a very brief and polite way. That wall of text was to remind the real source of all the social troubles since those idealistic delusions like "Some races or nations are bad" still exists.

You know, I do agree with what you said there. Everyone always believes they are in the right. But I do think you are missing a few things, change is one of them.

Slavery is still a horrible ideal because of what it entails, believing that you are above and deserve to be their master. That ideal is what slavery is, was, and will always be. Even in real life, they used enslavement on natives because they believed that they were under them and didn't deserve rights.

Because of this, and because of how elves still think they are superior is what I hate. This isn't all elves of course, but if it's their general society and main ideals, then that's something to be disliked. To ignore it and let it slide is exactly the mistake that hinders change for the better.

By all means, I can get past my hate and general dislike if they moved past being superior and unpleasant. But until then I'm not going to ignore it because they believe in it.

Yes, you're absolutely correct, I have almost nothing to add to your words. To say it very briefly, the natural environment along with the technical and technological development determines the type of economy (the ways of of production and distribution of the social wealth), the type of economy determines the social relations, the social relations determine the social classes, the dominant social class determines the type of the state and everything happening in a particular society - laws, religion, ethics, views on good and evil, social features, mind set, etc. And since every process in the world is characterized by it's own internal contradictions in it, the socio-economic development process is not an exception - as you have said it, everything changes, and the first thing changeable in any society is economy, the ways of production and distribution of social wealth. And then it comes to the major contradiction of where the economical level is way ahead of the level of social relations, e.g. you can't have a highly developed commercial company in a chattel slavery society, a slaver state - if that happens then the society turns to extreme things like the ones happened in America in 1861 - 1865, in Russia of 1917 - 1922, Japan, Germany, etc., etc. This process is unavoidable.. But such is the price of progress!..

And slavery - yes, it still exists because every socio-economic formation always contains the worst features of it's predecessors. Those features are not dominant, but still they exist, of course. Slavery is not just a lone example of it - you just remember that land owning hereditary customs of the feudal societies when only the nobility could own the primary means of production, i.e. lands. The same thing happens today when only the children of the multibillionairs get all the assets and power of their parents. Remember those well known modern political dynasties who have been ruling the world for the recent 50 - 60 years. Another example is wars: slaves were the goal of ancient wars, lands were the objective in feudal wars, global markets and financial resources derived out the natural ones are the goal of the modern ones. The examples are numerous - such features are always present. It is always a dualism - a progression forward always meets a resistance directed backwards. I'm glad you understood me right, @Ryuvain, it's always a pleasure to talk to an educated man. Thank you for your reply, mate.

vestahls wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Because of this, and because of how elves still think they are superior is what I hate. This isn't all elves of course, but if it's their general society and main ideals, then that's something to be disliked. To ignore it and let it slide is exactly the mistake that hinders change for the better.

By all means, I can get past my hate and general dislike if they moved past being superior and unpleasant. But until then I'm not going to ignore it because they believe in it.

In this fantasy setting though, elves really are superior. And from a mechanical perspective, if it's not them it's going to be others, cause there's always a best-in-slot. So in a game, superiority is a given at any point, and when all races are the same the game's just boring.

But yeah, elves don't believe it blindly, they know it. It's a fantasy game, no reason to get real-life upset over it.

Hey, Vestahls! In what way Elves are superior? The life span? Well, then we have to admit the turtles living 150 - 200 years are way more superior then humans. Perhaps it is their racial skills that make them superior? Well, yes, the Syrabane's Boon and the Elemental expert gradually increase their Max Magicka and Spell Damage. But they lack, say, the Conditioning and the Adrenaline Rush of Redguards that increases their Max Stamina and it's recovery or the Unflinching Rage and the Swift Warrior of Orcs that make them a far more superior warriors than Altmer. At the same time that were exactly the Altmeri warriors who defeated the Empire in the 4th Era. But still, they were not that good to defeat the Redguard military and were unable to stop Tiber Septim before he used Numidium. Perhaps, Altmer are superior individually? Well.. I killed so many of them in Cyrod and in Shadowfen being a Dunmer, I also recall my colleague Neramo - Neramo! Is he really that superior to, say, Master Gothren in, say, magickal arts? I don't think so.

Perhaps some Altmeri gods are superior? Well, speaking of the modern times the ALMSIVI are all alive and powerful while the Altmeri ones are just in the memory of their people. Perhaps the divine ancestry makes Altmer superior? Well, you know it quite well, that the Altmeri religion and the current Tamrielic history is all written and based on the Sapiarch writings. The entire historical chronology is based on the writings of the Sapiarch Aicantar of Shimmerene - what did you expect to read there except of the Altmeri superiority?

Some time ago I developed the New Elven Chronology. A Theory (it is devided on purely theoretical part and the list of dates). The current results of my research showed it that Ayleids were the most ancient Tamrielic folk, the real "Aldmer" of the chronicles who gave way to all other Merethic nations, while the first documented facts of the purely Altmeri activities are dated back only to the 1E 500s when the Corelanya Altmeri clan tried to inhabit the Ayleid ruins in Hammerfell. So, superiority is a very pointy thing, it cannot be total and eternal. This is what I think on that matter. Though, I have to admit, that I do support the Dunmeri policy myself there since I'm a certain Dunmeri land owner there - so I can understand your views on the Altmeri superiority and don't need explanations and proofs . We all make our own choices in this game, indeed.

Just wow, really didn't expect such an intellectual response here. You see all of that the same way I do, subjectively and truthfully. I'll admit, you just earned my respect.

vestahls

Ryuvain wrote: »

I think you're buying into their beliefs too much. If anything all races were created from some God in the lore. That's like saying that if you enslave a populace you helped them because you forced your lifestyle into them.

Frankly I'll leave you to that. The parallels I see here are too disturbing.

No, I'm just buying into the stats, and the lore. The lore is canon (it would be canon even if no NPCs believed it anymore), and the stats, although they change from game-to-game, are still evident even in ESO. Try going up against an Altmer or Breton magsorc in PVP when you're playing a Nord or an Orc. Vice-versa with stamina. And for a while now, mag classes have been stronger than stam, so there's absolutely a better and worse, you just can't avoid this in a video game. There's always a BiS.

In the creation myths though, there's not much equivalence. Humans were created, in a way?, by Lorkhan, but he's a dead god. The Argonians were created by the Hist, which is a god sort of?, and the hist comes from a previous talpa (supposedly) and has its own limitations. And I think the Khajiits say they were created by Azura, which is a Daedra, so pretty impressive but not as impressive as the Aedra, which created all of Nirn so everyone living on it owe their existence to the stasis that the Aedra brought about.

This sort of thing is kind of why everyone spurns the Orcs, for example, because their creation myth is so humiliating - I mean they also spurn them for other reasons, but the thing with Malacath is definitely something that's held against them, among NPCs who know about it. So stuff like this does matter, even if marginally, and there's not that many points of equivalency.

And see, I'm getting confused again on whether this is a real-life type of discussion or a game discussion. Like, parallels between what and what? Are you disturbed, as you mentioned before, in-game or personally?

Ryuvain

vestahls wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

I think you're buying into their beliefs too much. If anything all races were created from some God in the lore. That's like saying that if you enslave a populace you helped them because you forced your lifestyle into them.

Frankly I'll leave you to that. The parallels I see here are too disturbing.

No, I'm just buying into the stats, and the lore. The lore is canon (it would be canon even if no NPCs believed it anymore), and the stats, although they change from game-to-game, are still evident even in ESO. Try going up against an Altmer or Breton magsorc in PVP when you're playing a Nord or an Orc. Vice-versa with stamina. And for a while now, mag classes have been stronger than stam, so there's absolutely a better and worse, you just can't avoid this in a video game. There's always a BiS.

In the creation myths though, there's not much equivalence. Humans were created, in a way?, by Lorkhan, but he's a dead god. The Argonians were created by the Hist, which is a god sort of?, and the hist comes from a previous talpa (supposedly) and has its own limitations. And I think the Khajiits say they were created by Azura, which is a Daedra, so pretty impressive but not as impressive as the Aedra, which created all of Nirn so everyone living on it owe their existence to the stasis that the Aedra brought about.

This sort of thing is kind of why everyone spurns the Orcs, for example, because their creation myth is so humiliating - I mean they also spurn them for other reasons, but the thing with Malacath is definitely something that's held against them, among NPCs who know about it. So stuff like this does matter, even if marginally, and there's not that many points of equivalency.

And see, I'm getting confused again on whether this is a real-life type of discussion or a game discussion. Like, parallels between what and what? Are you disturbed, as you mentioned before, in-game or personally?

Mag is better in every way compared to stam? Have you seen pvp? Also stats don't really tie into npc behavior since they can't see their own stats, so that's irrelevant.

But you do see how all races were created by some godlike power right? Who's to say what is superior?

For the last one, I'll leave to your imagination.

vestahls

Ryuvain wrote: »

Mag is better in every way compared to stam? Have you seen pvp? Also stats don't really tie into npc behavior since they can't see their own stats, so that's irrelevant.

But you do see how all races were created by some godlike power right? Who's to say what is superior?

For the last one, I'll leave to your imagination.

Yeah full disclosure I don't play PVP as much as PVE, and in PVE mag is definitely easier, if not better (and honestly easier=better, the faster you get through it the faster you move on to the next thing).
We're still in mutual understanding though, there is always a best, even if what is best changes with an update.

And I know it was a rhetorical question from your side, but just like above with the stats, there's always a best. The Dunmer think they're the best because their gods are still living, but just because they think it doesn't necessarily make it true. And it's great that they think it, because they should absolutely be proud of what they are, just like every other race should be proud of what they are, and that includes the Altmer. I get that some people get all shifty in their seat and uncomfortable, but to me and fans of TES in general, it adds spice and flavour to the games, and another aspect of it that you can get lost in.

The fact that the Altmer are "the best" is sort of evidence by the fact that they're supposed to be the "winners", as I mentioned above with the Kirkbride quote. IIrc, he was referring to the thing with the Towers, and if we take up that theory then they're definitely on the pathway to winning as most of the Towers are already deactivated.
And the Aedra are pretty definitively and objectively superior to the other supernatural entities around, because they created the whole physical world, which is more than any other entity outside of Anu and Padomay (and potentially the Godhead). Like, you can't beat that. You can argue Lorkhan is in line with them, definitely, but the Aedra are absolutely better than everyone else around simply on the basis of their achievement.

VaranisArano

Most of this "but the elves really are descended from the Aedra" stuff seems to me to be missing the original point.

Yeah, they are descended from the Aedra.

So what? It doesn't make them any less awful, objectively. It doesn't make them any less xenophobic, racist, and bigoted. Being "right" about their reason doesn't make it any better that their go-to response is oppression or disdain for anyone who isn't their race of Mer. Because of their ancestry, many of the elven races have chosen to treat others badly as a deliberate choice - let's not pretend that they couldn't have chosen differently.

Now, I'll admit this could be derailing into a discussion of "the ends justify the means", in which the Altmer are especially prone to going with "our ends are great for everyone, so who cares if we crack a few eggs to make the omelette" in both TES V and Shadowfen. Whelp, the Nords, the Imperials, the Redguards, and the Argonians very much care, Altmer A-holes! The Altmer haven't gotten their comeuppance from their victims yet in the TES games (aside from getting their butts kicked out of Hammerfell by the Redguards), but if I were them, I'd be rather worried given the example of the Argonians vs the Dunmer after Red Year. Pride goeth before a great fall, even for the elves. There are always consequences for awful behavior stored up down the line.


And arguably, its actually causing their own people more problems than if they weren't correct about their ancestry. The 2nd Era Altmer are a prime example. Their decision to isolate themselves to seek perfection while coasting on their ancestors' accomplishments has left their 2nd Era society in a fragile state, unable to cope with the current crisis. Because right now, the "best" are begging my nebarra Vestige to save them.

This circles back to my first post. Altmer society has certain cultural touchstones that they think make them "the best." A high level of social stratification where everyone knows their place and their ancestry, respect for everyone's path to Alaxon, seeking after perfection, heavy emphasis on ceremoniarchy, and a collection of expertise in the Sapiarchs. They think these things are good and necessary since it reflects the ways they see themselves as descended from the Aedra. On the other hand, these very aspects of their society leave them woefully, cripplingly unprepared to deal with the crisis happening in Summerset, even to the point that they are hiring mercenary nebarra adventurers to go deal with their problems. Throughout the whole questline, we see multiple failures of the Altmer society. It seems that its the sort of society that only works well when its relatively static and isolated and when it can exile the people who don't fit in.

Though it's easy to see why many Altmer fool themselves into thinking they have the best society. Because they are so isolated and parochial, all they see is outsiders causing chaos without considering that their society is so fragile that it can't handle what every other society on Tamriel manages on a daily basis: foreigners and immigrants going about their business, *gasp*. But that requires a certain level of flexibility, which is decidedly not one of the strengths of the Altmer.

After all, if you are descended from the Aedra, why should you have to be flexible? And thus we see one way that the Altmer ideology harms them in their own arrogance. They wouldn't see it that way, but its plain for outsiders (or players, looking objectively) to see. Most Altmer who DO see it tend to be outsiders in one way or another like Ayrenn or Vanus Galerion (who's Mages Guild is far more effective in the Planemeld crisis than the ideologically-opposite Sapiarchs are during Summerset.)

So, sure, the elves are descended from the Aedra.

So what? Turns out you can be descended from the Aedra and still be awful.

vestahls

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most of this "but the elves really are descended from the Aedra" stuff seems to me to be missing the original point.

Yeah, they are descended from the Aedra.

So what? It doesn't make them any less awful, objectively. It doesn't make them any less xenophobic, racist, and bigoted. Being "right" about their reason doesn't make it any better that their go-to response is oppression or disdain for anyone who isn't their race of Mer. Because of their ancestry, many of the elven races have chosen to treat others badly as a deliberate choice - let's not pretend that they couldn't have chosen differently.

Now, I'll admit this could be derailing into a discussion of "the ends justify the means", in which the Altmer are especially prone to going with "our ends are great for everyone, so who cares if we crack a few eggs to make the omelette" in both TES V and Shadowfen. Whelp, the Nords, the Imperials, the Redguards, and the Argonians very much care, Altmer A-holes! The Altmer haven't gotten their comeuppance from their victims yet in the TES games (aside from getting their butts kicked out of Hammerfell by the Redguards), but if I were them, I'd be rather worried given the example of the Argonians vs the Dunmer after Red Year. Pride goeth before a great fall, even for the elves. There are always consequences for awful behavior stored up down the line.


And arguably, its actually causing their own people more problems than if they weren't correct about their ancestry. The 2nd Era Altmer are a prime example. Their decision to isolate themselves to seek perfection while coasting on their ancestors' accomplishments has left their 2nd Era society in a fragile state, unable to cope with the current crisis. Because right now, the "best" are begging my nebarra Vestige to save them.

This circles back to my first post. Altmer society has certain cultural touchstones that they think make them "the best." A high level of social stratification where everyone knows their place and their ancestry, respect for everyone's path to Alaxon, seeking after perfection, heavy emphasis on ceremoniarchy, and a collection of expertise in the Sapiarchs. They think these things are good and necessary since it reflects the ways they see themselves as descended from the Aedra. On the other hand, these very aspects of their society leave them woefully, cripplingly unprepared to deal with the crisis happening in Summerset, even to the point that they are hiring mercenary nebarra adventurers to go deal with their problems. Throughout the whole questline, we see multiple failures of the Altmer society. It seems that its the sort of society that only works well when its relatively static and isolated and when it can exile the people who don't fit in.

Though it's easy to see why many Altmer fool themselves into thinking they have the best society. Because they are so isolated and parochial, all they see is outsiders causing chaos without considering that their society is so fragile that it can't handle what every other society on Tamriel manages on a daily basis: foreigners and immigrants going about their business, *gasp*. But that requires a certain level of flexibility, which is decidedly not one of the strengths of the Altmer.

After all, if you are descended from the Aedra, why should you have to be flexible? And thus we see one way that the Altmer ideology harms them in their own arrogance. They wouldn't see it that way, but its plain for outsiders (or players, looking objectively) to see. Most Altmer who DO see it tend to be outsiders in one way or another like Ayrenn or Vanus Galerion (who's Mages Guild is far more effective in the Planemeld crisis than the ideologically-opposite Sapiarchs are during Summerset.)

So, sure, the elves are descended from the Aedra.

So what? Turns out you can be descended from the Aedra and still be awful.

And that's bad? There's absolutely zero things wrong with characters being mean and nasty. It's what makes it fun. Everyone else seems to be missing the point that nobody actually wants to consume tepid stories about mild modestlets.

And nah, consequences are never stored up as a default. Sometimes they are, but sometimes the bad guys get away with it, and that's just another type of story.

Aigym_Hlervu

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most of this "but the elves really are descended from the Aedra" stuff seems to me to be missing the original point.

Yeah, they are descended from the Aedra.

So what? It doesn't make them any less awful, objectively. It doesn't make them any less xenophobic, racist, and bigoted. Being "right" about their reason doesn't make it any better that their go-to response is oppression or disdain for anyone who isn't their race of Mer. Because of their ancestry, many of the elven races have chosen to treat others badly as a deliberate choice - let's not pretend that they couldn't have chosen differently.

Now, I'll admit this could be derailing into a discussion of "the ends justify the means", in which the Altmer are especially prone to going with "our ends are great for everyone, so who cares if we crack a few eggs to make the omelette" in both TES V and Shadowfen. Whelp, the Nords, the Imperials, the Redguards, and the Argonians very much care, Altmer A-holes! The Altmer haven't gotten their comeuppance from their victims yet in the TES games (aside from getting their butts kicked out of Hammerfell by the Redguards), but if I were them, I'd be rather worried given the example of the Argonians vs the Dunmer after Red Year. Pride goeth before a great fall, even for the elves. There are always consequences for awful behavior stored up down the line.


And arguably, its actually causing their own people more problems than if they weren't correct about their ancestry. The 2nd Era Altmer are a prime example. Their decision to isolate themselves to seek perfection while coasting on their ancestors' accomplishments has left their 2nd Era society in a fragile state, unable to cope with the current crisis. Because right now, the "best" are begging my nebarra Vestige to save them.

This circles back to my first post. Altmer society has certain cultural touchstones that they think make them "the best." A high level of social stratification where everyone knows their place and their ancestry, respect for everyone's path to Alaxon, seeking after perfection, heavy emphasis on ceremoniarchy, and a collection of expertise in the Sapiarchs. They think these things are good and necessary since it reflects the ways they see themselves as descended from the Aedra. On the other hand, these very aspects of their society leave them woefully, cripplingly unprepared to deal with the crisis happening in Summerset, even to the point that they are hiring mercenary nebarra adventurers to go deal with their problems. Throughout the whole questline, we see multiple failures of the Altmer society. It seems that its the sort of society that only works well when its relatively static and isolated and when it can exile the people who don't fit in.

Though it's easy to see why many Altmer fool themselves into thinking they have the best society. Because they are so isolated and parochial, all they see is outsiders causing chaos without considering that their society is so fragile that it can't handle what every other society on Tamriel manages on a daily basis: foreigners and immigrants going about their business, *gasp*. But that requires a certain level of flexibility, which is decidedly not one of the strengths of the Altmer.

After all, if you are descended from the Aedra, why should you have to be flexible? And thus we see one way that the Altmer ideology harms them in their own arrogance. They wouldn't see it that way, but its plain for outsiders (or players, looking objectively) to see. Most Altmer who DO see it tend to be outsiders in one way or another like Ayrenn or Vanus Galerion (who's Mages Guild is far more effective in the Planemeld crisis than the ideologically-opposite Sapiarchs are during Summerset.)

So, sure, the elves are descended from the Aedra.

So what? Turns out you can be descended from the Aedra and still be awful.

And that's bad? There's absolutely zero things wrong with characters being mean and nasty. It's what makes it fun. Everyone else seems to be missing the point that nobody actually wants to consume tepid stories about mild modestlets.

And nah, consequences are never stored up as a default. Sometimes they are, but sometimes the bad guys get away with it, and that's just another type of story.

You know, mate.. According to your logic there's absolutely zero things wrong with people being mean and nasty IRL - it's what makes it fun, because we all are going to die and irrespectively of the afterlife's existence this world will nonetheless become irrelevant. Just like it was when we were dead, i.e. before we were all born to this reality, there is the very last day of each of us ahead. If this reality ever "real" and exists somewhere beyond of our senses, but that's philosophy. So, what? Kill, steal, propagate your superiority and perform crimes? Is that what you are implying to? I thought we all are here to make something good and leave a better world to those who come after us. Yes! At least because nobody knows if we are going to return and meet the results of our own actions, if thinking of someone's else good is not that great thing!

What "fun" do you see in the Aicantar's words menacing to eleminate all the Dunmer except those who would be found fit? Do you understand it is a pure fascism in it's highest form once propagated by a certain party IRL with it's leader, a talented Austrian artist? Do you remember the results of trials held in a certain German city that sentenced not only certain criminals, but the very ideology? Fun to be bad, yes? So, I guess, if I somehow slay you down while you are, say, fishing, then make a tea-bag thing, then play the /dishonor emote and finally whisper you something insulting - you won't be offended at all, right?.. It is you who's missing the point here, mate - there is nothing good in bad things anywhere and it is really strange that this things should be explained to an adult.. I guess you've watched the modern American movies and cartoons of the recent 30 years too much - too often evil is portrayed as something good and attractive there. Here is the result.. No offense, though, I do understand quite well, that this message won't change anything in your mind set just like your advocating of evil will not change mine. Perhaps, the battlegrounds of Cyrodiil would be a better place to solve our disagreements . Hmm.. Perhaps I'll make the next raid of my units there into the Dominion territory. We'll see how superior the High Elven military is and be sure, I'll /dishonor every Altmeri corpse I can there for all the evil your policy have done and will do to the Pact nations . It's a cue to you to abandon the Dominion and join the Pact . Take an example of my friend IRL (27 years of friendship this year!) who's new to TES - he plays an Altmer but even he got it right and changed his Alliance to the Ebonheart Pact and never said a rude word to me, a Dunmer. Have a good day, mate, and rethink your ideas on good and evil.

VaranisArano

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most of this "but the elves really are descended from the Aedra" stuff seems to me to be missing the original point.

Yeah, they are descended from the Aedra.

So what? It doesn't make them any less awful, objectively. It doesn't make them any less xenophobic, racist, and bigoted. Being "right" about their reason doesn't make it any better that their go-to response is oppression or disdain for anyone who isn't their race of Mer. Because of their ancestry, many of the elven races have chosen to treat others badly as a deliberate choice - let's not pretend that they couldn't have chosen differently.

Now, I'll admit this could be derailing into a discussion of "the ends justify the means", in which the Altmer are especially prone to going with "our ends are great for everyone, so who cares if we crack a few eggs to make the omelette" in both TES V and Shadowfen. Whelp, the Nords, the Imperials, the Redguards, and the Argonians very much care, Altmer A-holes! The Altmer haven't gotten their comeuppance from their victims yet in the TES games (aside from getting their butts kicked out of Hammerfell by the Redguards), but if I were them, I'd be rather worried given the example of the Argonians vs the Dunmer after Red Year. Pride goeth before a great fall, even for the elves. There are always consequences for awful behavior stored up down the line.


And arguably, its actually causing their own people more problems than if they weren't correct about their ancestry. The 2nd Era Altmer are a prime example. Their decision to isolate themselves to seek perfection while coasting on their ancestors' accomplishments has left their 2nd Era society in a fragile state, unable to cope with the current crisis. Because right now, the "best" are begging my nebarra Vestige to save them.

This circles back to my first post. Altmer society has certain cultural touchstones that they think make them "the best." A high level of social stratification where everyone knows their place and their ancestry, respect for everyone's path to Alaxon, seeking after perfection, heavy emphasis on ceremoniarchy, and a collection of expertise in the Sapiarchs. They think these things are good and necessary since it reflects the ways they see themselves as descended from the Aedra. On the other hand, these very aspects of their society leave them woefully, cripplingly unprepared to deal with the crisis happening in Summerset, even to the point that they are hiring mercenary nebarra adventurers to go deal with their problems. Throughout the whole questline, we see multiple failures of the Altmer society. It seems that its the sort of society that only works well when its relatively static and isolated and when it can exile the people who don't fit in.

Though it's easy to see why many Altmer fool themselves into thinking they have the best society. Because they are so isolated and parochial, all they see is outsiders causing chaos without considering that their society is so fragile that it can't handle what every other society on Tamriel manages on a daily basis: foreigners and immigrants going about their business, *gasp*. But that requires a certain level of flexibility, which is decidedly not one of the strengths of the Altmer.

After all, if you are descended from the Aedra, why should you have to be flexible? And thus we see one way that the Altmer ideology harms them in their own arrogance. They wouldn't see it that way, but its plain for outsiders (or players, looking objectively) to see. Most Altmer who DO see it tend to be outsiders in one way or another like Ayrenn or Vanus Galerion (who's Mages Guild is far more effective in the Planemeld crisis than the ideologically-opposite Sapiarchs are during Summerset.)

So, sure, the elves are descended from the Aedra.

So what? Turns out you can be descended from the Aedra and still be awful.

And that's bad? There's absolutely zero things wrong with characters being mean and nasty. It's what makes it fun. Everyone else seems to be missing the point that nobody actually wants to consume tepid stories about mild modestlets.

And nah, consequences are never stored up as a default. Sometimes they are, but sometimes the bad guys get away with it, and that's just another type of story.

Yes, that was one of the points I made in my first post. None of the cultures in the TES series would be good to live in, but they are interesting, which is why players like the complexity of the series. Flawed characters and societies with crippling weaknesses make for good stories.

I agree with "the elves are descended from the Aedra" as a statement of fact.

What I'm bringing to the discussion is to point out that "the elves are descended from the Aedra" has led them to justify and excuse absolutely awful behavior, resulting in rolling conflicts with humans and beastfolk that often came back to bite the Altmer and Dunmer.

In addition, their beliefs and actions that rest on "we're descended from the Aedra" have left their societies with glaring and crippling weaknesses, leading both of them to need an outsider - explicitly, in the case of the Nerevarine, and implicitly in Summerset with the nebarra Vestige - to come in and save them when the system is tested in a major crisis. You'd think "the best" would have this figured out on their own, right?

This all makes for interesting storytelling, sure! But its a far cry from the positive spin that "Aedric ancestry" was getting as the source of their vaunted superiority.

If nothing else, we're proving the OP's point again. Even the best justification for why the elves think its okay to be awful only underscores their awfulness, both in their treatment of others and the problems in their own societies.


I also disagree about consequences. There are always consequences, though perhaps not as cataclysmic or karmic as Red Year was for the Dunmer. We have only to look at the history of elven-human conflicts in Tamriel to see the layers and layers of consequences for actions on both sides. I doubt Tiber Septim intended to cause the White-Gold Concordat when he conquered Summerset with his Numidium, but that was one end result, and that action by the Thalmor will continue to have consequences down the line in future games (unless, of course, Bethesda says "The Thalmor deactivated the towers! No more TES games!" At which point, I suppose you could definitively say that the elves won...)

vestahls

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most of this "but the elves really are descended from the Aedra" stuff seems to me to be missing the original point.

Yeah, they are descended from the Aedra.

So what? It doesn't make them any less awful, objectively. It doesn't make them any less xenophobic, racist, and bigoted. Being "right" about their reason doesn't make it any better that their go-to response is oppression or disdain for anyone who isn't their race of Mer. Because of their ancestry, many of the elven races have chosen to treat others badly as a deliberate choice - let's not pretend that they couldn't have chosen differently.

Now, I'll admit this could be derailing into a discussion of "the ends justify the means", in which the Altmer are especially prone to going with "our ends are great for everyone, so who cares if we crack a few eggs to make the omelette" in both TES V and Shadowfen. Whelp, the Nords, the Imperials, the Redguards, and the Argonians very much care, Altmer A-holes! The Altmer haven't gotten their comeuppance from their victims yet in the TES games (aside from getting their butts kicked out of Hammerfell by the Redguards), but if I were them, I'd be rather worried given the example of the Argonians vs the Dunmer after Red Year. Pride goeth before a great fall, even for the elves. There are always consequences for awful behavior stored up down the line.


And arguably, its actually causing their own people more problems than if they weren't correct about their ancestry. The 2nd Era Altmer are a prime example. Their decision to isolate themselves to seek perfection while coasting on their ancestors' accomplishments has left their 2nd Era society in a fragile state, unable to cope with the current crisis. Because right now, the "best" are begging my nebarra Vestige to save them.

This circles back to my first post. Altmer society has certain cultural touchstones that they think make them "the best." A high level of social stratification where everyone knows their place and their ancestry, respect for everyone's path to Alaxon, seeking after perfection, heavy emphasis on ceremoniarchy, and a collection of expertise in the Sapiarchs. They think these things are good and necessary since it reflects the ways they see themselves as descended from the Aedra. On the other hand, these very aspects of their society leave them woefully, cripplingly unprepared to deal with the crisis happening in Summerset, even to the point that they are hiring mercenary nebarra adventurers to go deal with their problems. Throughout the whole questline, we see multiple failures of the Altmer society. It seems that its the sort of society that only works well when its relatively static and isolated and when it can exile the people who don't fit in.

Though it's easy to see why many Altmer fool themselves into thinking they have the best society. Because they are so isolated and parochial, all they see is outsiders causing chaos without considering that their society is so fragile that it can't handle what every other society on Tamriel manages on a daily basis: foreigners and immigrants going about their business, *gasp*. But that requires a certain level of flexibility, which is decidedly not one of the strengths of the Altmer.

After all, if you are descended from the Aedra, why should you have to be flexible? And thus we see one way that the Altmer ideology harms them in their own arrogance. They wouldn't see it that way, but its plain for outsiders (or players, looking objectively) to see. Most Altmer who DO see it tend to be outsiders in one way or another like Ayrenn or Vanus Galerion (who's Mages Guild is far more effective in the Planemeld crisis than the ideologically-opposite Sapiarchs are during Summerset.)

So, sure, the elves are descended from the Aedra.

So what? Turns out you can be descended from the Aedra and still be awful.

And that's bad? There's absolutely zero things wrong with characters being mean and nasty. It's what makes it fun. Everyone else seems to be missing the point that nobody actually wants to consume tepid stories about mild modestlets.

And nah, consequences are never stored up as a default. Sometimes they are, but sometimes the bad guys get away with it, and that's just another type of story.

Yes, that was one of the points I made in my first post. None of the cultures in the TES series would be good to live in, but they are interesting, which is why players like the complexity of the series. Flawed characters and societies with crippling weaknesses make for good stories.

I agree with "the elves are descended from the Aedra" as a statement of fact.

What I'm bringing to the discussion is to point out that "the elves are descended from the Aedra" has led them to justify and excuse absolutely awful behavior, resulting in rolling conflicts with humans and beastfolk that often came back to bite the Altmer and Dunmer.

In addition, their beliefs and actions that rest on "we're descended from the Aedra" have left their societies with glaring and crippling weaknesses, leading both of them to need an outsider - explicitly, in the case of the Nerevarine, and implicitly in Summerset with the nebarra Vestige - to come in and save them when the system is tested in a major crisis. You'd think "the best" would have this figured out on their own, right?

This all makes for interesting storytelling, sure! But its a far cry from the positive spin that "Aedric ancestry" was getting as the source of their vaunted superiority.

If nothing else, we're proving the OP's point again. Even the best justification for why the elves think its okay to be awful only underscores their awfulness, both in their treatment of others and the problems in their own societies.


I also disagree about consequences. There are always consequences, though perhaps not as cataclysmic or karmic as Red Year was for the Dunmer. We have only to look at the history of elven-human conflicts in Tamriel to see the layers and layers of consequences for actions on both sides. I doubt Tiber Septim intended to cause the White-Gold Concordat when he conquered Summerset with his Numidium, but that was one end result, and that action by the Thalmor will continue to have consequences down the line in future games (unless, of course, Bethesda says "The Thalmor deactivated the towers! No more TES games!" At which point, I suppose you could definitively say that the elves won...)

Er no, lol. There are many stories in which either there are no consequences, or the villains are even rewarded. The story of Lamae Bal, for instance, or Mannimarco (remember how he got to make Vanus his zombie, just like he always wanted? lol), pretty much all the daedra do stuff with little to no consequences because they can't die, and even Vivec got off scot free, because he was never at all punished and only disappeared because he wanted to (maybe even reached amaranth). Not just in TES, but in many other works you have this theme of "injustice" or "tragedy".

And the fact that it's even said the elves in general are "awful" is just criminally untrue. What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome. And for most of the games now, it's the tension between the local culture (and sometimes even environment) and the hero that makes the game good. It's kind of why we keep starting out as a prisoner, the very bottom of any society we find ourselves in.
Let's face it, the true experience in Morrowind and Skyrim is to come to love the NPCs in spite of how mean they are to you. And hell, isn't Frostfall one of the most popular mods for Skyrim? Fact is, the games exist on the back of the adversity our characters face. That is not, in any way, "awful".

You could say it's awful in the game-world but for who? The Telvanni and Hlaalu might have thought the Redoran were awful, until they were the only militia against the Oblivion gates and Argonians, then suddenly they weren't so awful anymore. Another good thing about the writing for ye old TES games, which is sorely lacking in ESO, is the storytelling that reveals characters to not be like mirrors - what you see is what you get - but multifaceted, like diamonds. Everyone's awful sometimes, to certain characters, in certain situations, but there's always a good side too. One doesn't cancel the other. You wouldn't say a character is sweetheart just because he is like that toward his loved ones, so why say he's awful just because he's like that to NPCs they hate or disvalue?

So yeah, it's not only wrong to paint elves wholesale as awful from a player perspective, but from an in-game view as well, because it usually isn't true, and when it is true it's incomplete writing rather than the character group's fault.

VaranisArano

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most of this "but the elves really are descended from the Aedra" stuff seems to me to be missing the original point.

Yeah, they are descended from the Aedra.

So what? It doesn't make them any less awful, objectively. It doesn't make them any less xenophobic, racist, and bigoted. Being "right" about their reason doesn't make it any better that their go-to response is oppression or disdain for anyone who isn't their race of Mer. Because of their ancestry, many of the elven races have chosen to treat others badly as a deliberate choice - let's not pretend that they couldn't have chosen differently.

Now, I'll admit this could be derailing into a discussion of "the ends justify the means", in which the Altmer are especially prone to going with "our ends are great for everyone, so who cares if we crack a few eggs to make the omelette" in both TES V and Shadowfen. Whelp, the Nords, the Imperials, the Redguards, and the Argonians very much care, Altmer A-holes! The Altmer haven't gotten their comeuppance from their victims yet in the TES games (aside from getting their butts kicked out of Hammerfell by the Redguards), but if I were them, I'd be rather worried given the example of the Argonians vs the Dunmer after Red Year. Pride goeth before a great fall, even for the elves. There are always consequences for awful behavior stored up down the line.


And arguably, its actually causing their own people more problems than if they weren't correct about their ancestry. The 2nd Era Altmer are a prime example. Their decision to isolate themselves to seek perfection while coasting on their ancestors' accomplishments has left their 2nd Era society in a fragile state, unable to cope with the current crisis. Because right now, the "best" are begging my nebarra Vestige to save them.

This circles back to my first post. Altmer society has certain cultural touchstones that they think make them "the best." A high level of social stratification where everyone knows their place and their ancestry, respect for everyone's path to Alaxon, seeking after perfection, heavy emphasis on ceremoniarchy, and a collection of expertise in the Sapiarchs. They think these things are good and necessary since it reflects the ways they see themselves as descended from the Aedra. On the other hand, these very aspects of their society leave them woefully, cripplingly unprepared to deal with the crisis happening in Summerset, even to the point that they are hiring mercenary nebarra adventurers to go deal with their problems. Throughout the whole questline, we see multiple failures of the Altmer society. It seems that its the sort of society that only works well when its relatively static and isolated and when it can exile the people who don't fit in.

Though it's easy to see why many Altmer fool themselves into thinking they have the best society. Because they are so isolated and parochial, all they see is outsiders causing chaos without considering that their society is so fragile that it can't handle what every other society on Tamriel manages on a daily basis: foreigners and immigrants going about their business, *gasp*. But that requires a certain level of flexibility, which is decidedly not one of the strengths of the Altmer.

After all, if you are descended from the Aedra, why should you have to be flexible? And thus we see one way that the Altmer ideology harms them in their own arrogance. They wouldn't see it that way, but its plain for outsiders (or players, looking objectively) to see. Most Altmer who DO see it tend to be outsiders in one way or another like Ayrenn or Vanus Galerion (who's Mages Guild is far more effective in the Planemeld crisis than the ideologically-opposite Sapiarchs are during Summerset.)

So, sure, the elves are descended from the Aedra.

So what? Turns out you can be descended from the Aedra and still be awful.

And that's bad? There's absolutely zero things wrong with characters being mean and nasty. It's what makes it fun. Everyone else seems to be missing the point that nobody actually wants to consume tepid stories about mild modestlets.

And nah, consequences are never stored up as a default. Sometimes they are, but sometimes the bad guys get away with it, and that's just another type of story.

Yes, that was one of the points I made in my first post. None of the cultures in the TES series would be good to live in, but they are interesting, which is why players like the complexity of the series. Flawed characters and societies with crippling weaknesses make for good stories.

I agree with "the elves are descended from the Aedra" as a statement of fact.

What I'm bringing to the discussion is to point out that "the elves are descended from the Aedra" has led them to justify and excuse absolutely awful behavior, resulting in rolling conflicts with humans and beastfolk that often came back to bite the Altmer and Dunmer.

In addition, their beliefs and actions that rest on "we're descended from the Aedra" have left their societies with glaring and crippling weaknesses, leading both of them to need an outsider - explicitly, in the case of the Nerevarine, and implicitly in Summerset with the nebarra Vestige - to come in and save them when the system is tested in a major crisis. You'd think "the best" would have this figured out on their own, right?

This all makes for interesting storytelling, sure! But its a far cry from the positive spin that "Aedric ancestry" was getting as the source of their vaunted superiority.

If nothing else, we're proving the OP's point again. Even the best justification for why the elves think its okay to be awful only underscores their awfulness, both in their treatment of others and the problems in their own societies.


I also disagree about consequences. There are always consequences, though perhaps not as cataclysmic or karmic as Red Year was for the Dunmer. We have only to look at the history of elven-human conflicts in Tamriel to see the layers and layers of consequences for actions on both sides. I doubt Tiber Septim intended to cause the White-Gold Concordat when he conquered Summerset with his Numidium, but that was one end result, and that action by the Thalmor will continue to have consequences down the line in future games (unless, of course, Bethesda says "The Thalmor deactivated the towers! No more TES games!" At which point, I suppose you could definitively say that the elves won...)

Er no, lol. There are many stories in which either there are no consequences, or the villains are even rewarded. The story of Lamae Bal, for instance, or Mannimarco (remember how he got to make Vanus his zombie, just like he always wanted? lol), pretty much all the daedra do stuff with little to no consequences because they can't die, and even Vivec got off scot free, because he was never at all punished and only disappeared because he wanted to (maybe even reached amaranth). Not just in TES, but in many other works you have this theme of "injustice" or "tragedy".

And the fact that it's even said the elves in general are "awful" is just criminally untrue. What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome. And for most of the games now, it's the tension between the local culture (and sometimes even environment) and the hero that makes the game good. It's kind of why we keep starting out as a prisoner, the very bottom of any society we find ourselves in.
Let's face it, the true experience in Morrowind and Skyrim is to come to love the NPCs in spite of how mean they are to you. And hell, isn't Frostfall one of the most popular mods for Skyrim? Fact is, the games exist on the back of the adversity our characters face. That is not, in any way, "awful".

You could say it's awful in the game-world but for who? The Telvanni and Hlaalu might have thought the Redoran were awful, until they were the only militia against the Oblivion gates and Argonians, then suddenly they weren't so awful anymore. Another good thing about the writing for ye old TES games, which is sorely lacking in ESO, is the storytelling that reveals characters to not be like mirrors - what you see is what you get - but multifaceted like diamonds. Everyone's awful sometimes, to certain characters, in certain situations, but there's always a good side too (or in a good story, there should be). One doesn't cancel the other. You wouldn't say a sweetheart just because he is like that toward his loved ones, so why say he's awful just because he's like that to NPCs they hate or disvalue?

So yeah, it's not only wrong to paint elves wholesale as awful from a player perspective, but from an in-game view as well, because it usually isn't true, and when it is true it's incomplete writing rather than the character group's fault.

You are moving the goalposts to talk about individual villains. I am speaking historically about races and societies. Alessia may not have faced personal consequences for her rebellion against the Ayleids, but the consequences of that rebellion and the acts that led to it have reverberated through Elder Scrolls history impacting elven and human societies.

Unless Bethesda ends the series, there is no reason to think that there will not be consequences going forward for what the Thalmor did in and prior to Skyrim. That's just how history works. Individuals like Elenwen may escape the personal consequences of their misdeeds, but there are always consequences resulting from major actions like the White-Gold Concordat.

Which, well, duh. The entire game of TES V is all about the consequences of the White-Gold Concordat some years afterward. The entire game of TES III goes even further back, dealing with the consequences of the actions of the Dwemer and the Tribunal centuries before the game happens. Vivec might escape the consequences personally - aside from the loss of his powers and maybe the Nerevarine killing him - but the Dunmer people sure don't!

The TES series is all about consequences. Maybe not on the individual level, for every single villain, but it happens pretty organically on a societal level.



Moreover, you are getting into roleplaying territory when you talk about "What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome."

Quit moving the goalposts. We're not talking about Hlaalu v Redoran rivalries. We're talking about slavery, racism and xenophobia. As the OP said, "Altmer, Dunmer, and Dwemer are literal nazis, chauvinists, snobs... They insult everyone and feel superior to everything."

I'm even specifically talking about how Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia has created crippling weaknesses in their societies, especially because they fully buy into "we're descended from the Aedra; we do what we want." Their awful actions have detrimentally effected their own societies in multiple ways and you want me to call that awesome?

If that's what you think makes them awesome, you do you. But if you wanna roleplay your apologia for Dunmer and Altmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia, you go spew that at someone else. That's not my scene.

At best, I will acknowledge that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them interesting, complex, and thus fascinating races to roleplay in a video game. But sorry, you will not sell me the load of bull that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them not only not awful, objectively, but makes them awesome.

Ryuvain

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most of this "but the elves really are descended from the Aedra" stuff seems to me to be missing the original point.

Yeah, they are descended from the Aedra.

So what? It doesn't make them any less awful, objectively. It doesn't make them any less xenophobic, racist, and bigoted. Being "right" about their reason doesn't make it any better that their go-to response is oppression or disdain for anyone who isn't their race of Mer. Because of their ancestry, many of the elven races have chosen to treat others badly as a deliberate choice - let's not pretend that they couldn't have chosen differently.

Now, I'll admit this could be derailing into a discussion of "the ends justify the means", in which the Altmer are especially prone to going with "our ends are great for everyone, so who cares if we crack a few eggs to make the omelette" in both TES V and Shadowfen. Whelp, the Nords, the Imperials, the Redguards, and the Argonians very much care, Altmer A-holes! The Altmer haven't gotten their comeuppance from their victims yet in the TES games (aside from getting their butts kicked out of Hammerfell by the Redguards), but if I were them, I'd be rather worried given the example of the Argonians vs the Dunmer after Red Year. Pride goeth before a great fall, even for the elves. There are always consequences for awful behavior stored up down the line.


And arguably, its actually causing their own people more problems than if they weren't correct about their ancestry. The 2nd Era Altmer are a prime example. Their decision to isolate themselves to seek perfection while coasting on their ancestors' accomplishments has left their 2nd Era society in a fragile state, unable to cope with the current crisis. Because right now, the "best" are begging my nebarra Vestige to save them.

This circles back to my first post. Altmer society has certain cultural touchstones that they think make them "the best." A high level of social stratification where everyone knows their place and their ancestry, respect for everyone's path to Alaxon, seeking after perfection, heavy emphasis on ceremoniarchy, and a collection of expertise in the Sapiarchs. They think these things are good and necessary since it reflects the ways they see themselves as descended from the Aedra. On the other hand, these very aspects of their society leave them woefully, cripplingly unprepared to deal with the crisis happening in Summerset, even to the point that they are hiring mercenary nebarra adventurers to go deal with their problems. Throughout the whole questline, we see multiple failures of the Altmer society. It seems that its the sort of society that only works well when its relatively static and isolated and when it can exile the people who don't fit in.

Though it's easy to see why many Altmer fool themselves into thinking they have the best society. Because they are so isolated and parochial, all they see is outsiders causing chaos without considering that their society is so fragile that it can't handle what every other society on Tamriel manages on a daily basis: foreigners and immigrants going about their business, *gasp*. But that requires a certain level of flexibility, which is decidedly not one of the strengths of the Altmer.

After all, if you are descended from the Aedra, why should you have to be flexible? And thus we see one way that the Altmer ideology harms them in their own arrogance. They wouldn't see it that way, but its plain for outsiders (or players, looking objectively) to see. Most Altmer who DO see it tend to be outsiders in one way or another like Ayrenn or Vanus Galerion (who's Mages Guild is far more effective in the Planemeld crisis than the ideologically-opposite Sapiarchs are during Summerset.)

So, sure, the elves are descended from the Aedra.

So what? Turns out you can be descended from the Aedra and still be awful.

And that's bad? There's absolutely zero things wrong with characters being mean and nasty. It's what makes it fun. Everyone else seems to be missing the point that nobody actually wants to consume tepid stories about mild modestlets.

And nah, consequences are never stored up as a default. Sometimes they are, but sometimes the bad guys get away with it, and that's just another type of story.

Yes, that was one of the points I made in my first post. None of the cultures in the TES series would be good to live in, but they are interesting, which is why players like the complexity of the series. Flawed characters and societies with crippling weaknesses make for good stories.

I agree with "the elves are descended from the Aedra" as a statement of fact.

What I'm bringing to the discussion is to point out that "the elves are descended from the Aedra" has led them to justify and excuse absolutely awful behavior, resulting in rolling conflicts with humans and beastfolk that often came back to bite the Altmer and Dunmer.

In addition, their beliefs and actions that rest on "we're descended from the Aedra" have left their societies with glaring and crippling weaknesses, leading both of them to need an outsider - explicitly, in the case of the Nerevarine, and implicitly in Summerset with the nebarra Vestige - to come in and save them when the system is tested in a major crisis. You'd think "the best" would have this figured out on their own, right?

This all makes for interesting storytelling, sure! But its a far cry from the positive spin that "Aedric ancestry" was getting as the source of their vaunted superiority.

If nothing else, we're proving the OP's point again. Even the best justification for why the elves think its okay to be awful only underscores their awfulness, both in their treatment of others and the problems in their own societies.


I also disagree about consequences. There are always consequences, though perhaps not as cataclysmic or karmic as Red Year was for the Dunmer. We have only to look at the history of elven-human conflicts in Tamriel to see the layers and layers of consequences for actions on both sides. I doubt Tiber Septim intended to cause the White-Gold Concordat when he conquered Summerset with his Numidium, but that was one end result, and that action by the Thalmor will continue to have consequences down the line in future games (unless, of course, Bethesda says "The Thalmor deactivated the towers! No more TES games!" At which point, I suppose you could definitively say that the elves won...)

Er no, lol. There are many stories in which either there are no consequences, or the villains are even rewarded. The story of Lamae Bal, for instance, or Mannimarco (remember how he got to make Vanus his zombie, just like he always wanted? lol), pretty much all the daedra do stuff with little to no consequences because they can't die, and even Vivec got off scot free, because he was never at all punished and only disappeared because he wanted to (maybe even reached amaranth). Not just in TES, but in many other works you have this theme of "injustice" or "tragedy".

And the fact that it's even said the elves in general are "awful" is just criminally untrue. What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome. And for most of the games now, it's the tension between the local culture (and sometimes even environment) and the hero that makes the game good. It's kind of why we keep starting out as a prisoner, the very bottom of any society we find ourselves in.
Let's face it, the true experience in Morrowind and Skyrim is to come to love the NPCs in spite of how mean they are to you. And hell, isn't Frostfall one of the most popular mods for Skyrim? Fact is, the games exist on the back of the adversity our characters face. That is not, in any way, "awful".

You could say it's awful in the game-world but for who? The Telvanni and Hlaalu might have thought the Redoran were awful, until they were the only militia against the Oblivion gates and Argonians, then suddenly they weren't so awful anymore. Another good thing about the writing for ye old TES games, which is sorely lacking in ESO, is the storytelling that reveals characters to not be like mirrors - what you see is what you get - but multifaceted like diamonds. Everyone's awful sometimes, to certain characters, in certain situations, but there's always a good side too (or in a good story, there should be). One doesn't cancel the other. You wouldn't say a sweetheart just because he is like that toward his loved ones, so why say he's awful just because he's like that to NPCs they hate or disvalue?

So yeah, it's not only wrong to paint elves wholesale as awful from a player perspective, but from an in-game view as well, because it usually isn't true, and when it is true it's incomplete writing rather than the character group's fault.

You are moving the goalposts to talk about individual villains. I am speaking historically about races and societies. Alessia may not have faced personal consequences for her rebellion against the Ayleids, but the consequences of that rebellion and the acts that led to it have reverberated through Elder Scrolls history impacting elven and human societies.

Unless Bethesda ends the series, there is no reason to think that there will not be consequences going forward for what the Thalmor did in and prior to Skyrim. That's just how history works. Individuals like Elenwen may escape the personal consequences of their misdeeds, but there are always consequences resulting from major actions like the White-Gold Concordat.

Which, well, duh. The entire game of TES V is all about the consequences of the White-Gold Concordat some years afterward. The entire game of TES III goes even further back, dealing with the consequences of the actions of the Dwemer and the Tribunal centuries before the game happens. Vivec might escape the consequences personally - aside from the loss of his powers and maybe the Nerevarine killing him - but the Dunmer people sure don't!

The TES series is all about consequences. Maybe not on the individual level, for every single villain, but it happens pretty organically on a societal level.



Moreover, you are getting into roleplaying territory when you talk about "What some people say makes them awful is, on the contrary, exactly what makes them awesome."

Quit moving the goalposts. We're not talking about Hlaalu v Redoran rivalries. We're talking about slavery, racism and xenophobia. As the OP said, "Altmer, Dunmer, and Dwemer are literal nazis, chauvinists, snobs... They insult everyone and feel superior to everything."

I'm even specifically talking about how Altmer and Dunmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia has created crippling weaknesses in their societies, especially because they fully buy into "we're descended from the Aedra; we do what we want." Their awful actions have detrimentally effected their own societies in multiple ways and you want me to call that awesome?

If that's what you think makes them awesome, you do you. But if you wanna roleplay your apologia for Dunmer and Altmer slavery, racism, and xenophobia, you go spew that at someone else. That's not my scene.

At best, I will acknowledge that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them interesting, complex, and thus fascinating races to roleplay in a video game. But sorry, you will not sell me the load of bull that their slavery, racism, and xenophobia makes them not only not awful, objectively, but makes them awesome.

Well said.

Belegnole

While all the canonical talk is interesting. It doesn't negate the fact that pretty much all of the races in this game behave in a revolting manner.