Elves are so awful

Athan1

I started this game because of my love for high elves... and completely fell in love with Summerdet Isles (main island, Auridon, Artaeum, everything!), they're the most aesthetically pleasing zones by far. Also, their music is great. Elven lore and history are far more interesting and rich. And it was great fighting for the Queen and the Dominion.

However, after clearing all AD and Summerset content, and now going through EP/Morrowind content, I've come to see how terrible the elves are. All of them! In different ways. Altmer, Dunmer, and Dwemer are literal nazis, chauvinists, snobs... They insult everyone and feel superior to everything. On the other hand we have Orsimer and Bosmer who are primitive, feral...

Idk after clearing content I really got to dislike elves. I mean, they're greatly done by TES and the lore is spectacular, it takes skill to make you hate a character!

I race changed my Altmer to Breton and feel much better since. At least I feel less awful. Until I do DC content I guess...

Ryuvain

Thought I was the only one thinking that. Always felt elves are terrible because of all of that. It's infuriating seeing how often my favorite khajiit are enslaved and mistreated. Argonians have it bad too.

This isn't the only game either. I just dislike almost all elves because of that. Being all superior while doing it also rubs me the wrong way.

No offense to players who like them, but some actually enjoy playing a rascist slave owner and boast about it in zone chat. It's sickening.

Not talking about wood elves or orcs, but I also don't know much about them.

Just leave my khajiit alone please.

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

just from observing on these forums, as well as wow's. There seems to be an increase in people who personify a story, or a tale they are reading as a reflection of them, or something they wish to distance themselves from.

There are going to be stories where you do not like characters, or even a society - but understand that an individual in that collective don't have to behave like the rest.

Regarding Dark Elves slave ownership of Argonians, and players that talk about that. You *know* they are s-posting.
As a functional adult, why are you buying into trigger statements on a fantasy world.

Cyclical argument, before it is even raised about crossovers from real life, I loop back to there are going to be stories where you not like characters... etc. etc. on and on.

Ryuvain

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

just from observing on these forums, as well as wow's. There seems to be an increase in people who personify a story, or a tale they are reading as a reflection of them, or something they wish to distance themselves from.

There are going to be stories where you do not like characters, or even a society - but understand that an individual in that collective don't have to behave like the rest.

Regarding Dark Elves slave ownership of Argonians, and players that talk about that. You *know* they are s-posting.
As a functional adult, why are you buying into trigger statements on a fantasy world.

Cyclical argument, before it is even raised about crossovers from real life, I loop back to there are going to be stories where you not like characters... etc. etc. on and on.

Idk, rascism and slavery in any form is terrible imo.

DocFrost72

Ryuvain wrote: »

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

just from observing on these forums, as well as wow's. There seems to be an increase in people who personify a story, or a tale they are reading as a reflection of them, or something they wish to distance themselves from.

There are going to be stories where you do not like characters, or even a society - but understand that an individual in that collective don't have to behave like the rest.

Regarding Dark Elves slave ownership of Argonians, and players that talk about that. You *know* they are s-posting.
As a functional adult, why are you buying into trigger statements on a fantasy world.

Cyclical argument, before it is even raised about crossovers from real life, I loop back to there are going to be stories where you not like characters... etc. etc. on and on.

Idk, rascism and slavery in any form is terrible imo.

Jokes are a great vehicle for change and approaching difficult topics. Remember; "If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh or they'll kill you."

Ryuvain

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

just from observing on these forums, as well as wow's. There seems to be an increase in people who personify a story, or a tale they are reading as a reflection of them, or something they wish to distance themselves from.

There are going to be stories where you do not like characters, or even a society - but understand that an individual in that collective don't have to behave like the rest.

Regarding Dark Elves slave ownership of Argonians, and players that talk about that. You *know* they are s-posting.
As a functional adult, why are you buying into trigger statements on a fantasy world.

Cyclical argument, before it is even raised about crossovers from real life, I loop back to there are going to be stories where you not like characters... etc. etc. on and on.

Idk, rascism and slavery in any form is terrible imo.

Jokes are a great vehicle for change and approaching difficult topics. Remember; "If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh or they'll kill you."

Ok you win there. That was clever.
This one gives congrats.

Araneae6537

In general, I like TES elves because they are unique and interesting and a blend of good and bad traits — really all the races are. Playing through the Morrowind story, I like how varied the characters are and you see a variety of attitudes toward both other Dunmer and other races. With the Altmer, at times their portrayal does verge on being too much IMO (probably played up for humor, like the Nords), but there are still great stories there and characters with some sense as well as honor. As for humans, there are plenty of Imperials especially who are as arrogant as any elf and I’ve also come across Imperial slavers, although whether this was sanctioned or they were an entirely criminal group was unclear to me.

As for players, trolls will be trolls, although I’ve not come across that particular variety.

vestahls

Around elves, watch yourselves

Ringing_Nirnroot

Not all elves are bad I still enjoy playing as one

Idinuse

Athan1 wrote: »

I started this game because of my love for high elves... and completely fell in love with Summerdet Isles (main island, Auridon, Artaeum, everything!), they're the most aesthetically pleasing zones by far. Also, their music is great. Elven lore and history are far more interesting and rich. And it was great fighting for the Queen and the Dominion.

However, after clearing all AD and Summerset content, and now going through EP/Morrowind content, I've come to see how terrible the elves are. All of them! In different ways. Altmer, Dunmer, and Dwemer are literal nazis, chauvinists, snobs... They insult everyone and feel superior to everything. On the other hand we have Orsimer and Bosmer who are primitive, feral...

Idk after clearing content I really got to dislike elves. I mean, they're greatly done by TES and the lore is spectacular, it takes skill to make you hate a character!

I race changed my Altmer to Breton and feel much better since. At least I feel less awful. Until I do DC content I guess...

It's the general aversion for Altmers and AD from the devs that shine through. It's on the level of comical caricature at this point IMO.

VaranisArano

Yes, TES elves are awful, by modern standards. It's an aversion of the "Can't Argue With Elves" trope or more tolkienesque versions of elves as wise, powerful, and good.

They think they are the best, but we clearly see how their cultures cause them big problems. The Dunmer have a truly nasty system on honor codes and dueling alongside their slavery - they literally have the Morag Tong around to assassinate people to avoid big inter-House wars a la the Capulets/Montagues of Romeo and Juliet. The Altmer drive for perfection gives them a host of issues, including a lack of people to actually go deal with the problems cropping up over the isles and driving people who flout their rigid standards into exile.

I'd argue none of the TES societies would be pleasant to live in. In Skyrim, I'd be a milkdrinker for preferring books to mead, you know?

But these cultures are interesting, and that's why they fascinate players.

VaranisArano

Though this does remind me of an excellent comic:

Artist Credit: https://www.deviantart.com/isriana/art/Morrowind-Outlander-386908501

RaddlemanNumber7

I have two Altmer RP characters. I have distanced them from mainstream High Elf culture in their backstories. Both of my Altmer are narrated first as hulkynd, and then as solitary ascetics prior to them becoming the Vestige. Being complicit in the Altmers' unenlightened supremacism is not my fantasy.

I have two Dunmer as well, although they've both been benched for quite a while. If I start playing them again I'll have to write them backstories which disassociate them from the Great Houses and the Tribunal. The Tribunal and their servants are the very epitome of taboo-breaking vileness. Again, not my fantasy. Race change to Imperial, or maybe Argonian would be one way out for them.

Jaimeh

All elvish societies have severe issues, though in terms of arrogance/unpleasantness, High Elf/Dunmer take the cake. But I've just started the Markarth DLC, and already the constant 'we're gonna kill you' attitude of the Reachmen is getting old, so it's not just the elves. I think the most friendly societies were Breton, Redguard, and Khajiit.

Aristocles22

The root of their problem is that elves believe they are descended from the gods and are purer than other races in that they- in their mind- kept more of their divinity. Humans believe they are created by the gods and are therefore no inherently higher than anyone else. Khajiit and Argonians are confusing in this manner; Khajiit are somewhat related to elves but lack the arrogance which comes with it, and the Argonians are basically uplifted lizards who reincarnate when they die and their souls are recycled into new Argonians, who only achieved sapience because some lizards ate some hist sap a long time ago.

The distinction between begotten and made was clearly lifted from the Nicene Creed, the statement of faith of Christians; that's the whole "begotten not made" when it comes to the nature of Jesus Christ and how he was descended from (and is) God, as opposed to Adam, who was simply made by God in his own image. This isn't a real-life theology lesson, but it serves to illustrate the difference between what elves believe versus what humans believe. If you thought that the gods were your literal ancestors (that's what "Aedra" means), you'd probably think much higher of yourself too.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Before you condemn an Altmer put yourself in their shoes and see the world through their eyes. Its not that you "think" you are better... you "ARE" better than humans who are weakened souls that wandered away when the elfnofey were safe in aldmeris. Humans live brute short lives, filled with violence and foolish persistence of demanding your respect. They eat, sleep, rut, fight and die! And they believe they deserve to rule lands when they cant even rule themselves. Your people have given them (lesser folks) everything they have, magic, culture, learning and they thank you by fighting each other and you. They (men) murdered the snow elves (you dont know about falmer), they over threw the corrupted alyieds, they screwed the direnni out of existence, and now they border the wood elves and khajit and its just matter of time before another Reman pops up and murders more elves.

Humans are worse than goblins! Bigger, more dangerous, more organized but just as brutal and constantly looking for way to kill you and steal your land.

What would you do?

orion_1981usub17_ESO

As far as the Dunmer, Dunmer worship three murderers who call themselves gods and live in houses system worse than any real world mafia. They learn if they do what they're told by almsivi they too can become gods through chim. Has any other mortal race have living gods? No! this means that dunmer aren't just better than lesser races, they have a path to regain their divinity that the Altmer constantly complain about having lost. This gives them ideological license to do anything... ANYTHING is justifiable when your godhood is at stake. Slavery? what waste time farming when you can focus it on godhood... slavery just became okay. Murder opposition in another house? Cant let them stop your path to divinity...murder just became okay. Each Dunmer before the reclamation, believe they are close or far to divinity and the closer they get... the more actions are permissible.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Finally Dwemer, Imagine being trapped in a world full of idiots and you the only one who actually understands the basic rules of the world and if you try to teach the idiots they get violently confused and angry. Your people are smarter than the deadric princes and created artificial life forms to defend yourself from the angry idiots and deadric a-holes. All the idiots aren't just stupid... they're cowardly too, they fear deadric and aedric influences, that you have outsmarted, so much they risk war with you to appease the big idiots. And so you realize that you'll never have peace to push the boundaries of the rules with out an actual god to enforce peace on the entire world of idiots. So you create the numidium, and at your moment of triumph.... well no one knows what happens cause the only ones left were the idiots... but since they're telling the story its very likely that the dwemer finally miscalculated for once!

DocFrost72

One thing I noticed in a second pass...

However, after clearing all AD and Summerset content, and now going through EP/Morrowind content, I've come to see how terrible the elves are. All of them! In different ways. Altmer, Dunmer, and Dwemer are literal nazis, chauvinists, snobs... They insult everyone and feel superior to everything. On the other hand we have Orsimer and Bosmer who are primitive, feral...

*Leans on the counter.*

Wood elves are not primitive. They have advanced magic capable of creating infrastructure (including massive sprawling cities), and have every bit of cultural development any other race does. They have religion, morals, education, master craftsmen, and a system of governance and law fully fleshed out. That it looks different from yours doesn't mean they're primitive. As for feral, I assume that's leveled straight at the orcs? Let's not confuse militarism with barbarism (though there are certainly some orcs that fit that bill).

Given the original topic, the irony here is a bit thick.

VaranisArano

orion_1981usub17_ESO,

The elves are entirely justified in their own eyes, just as the humans and orcs are presumably justified in their own eyes. That's the central conceit of the racial conflicts in the TES series - everyone can justify their own side and there's plenty of lore to back it up. Thus you could say "Well, before you condemn [insert race here] for doing [insert bad thing here], consider that they think they are fully justified in doing so for [insert lore-based reasons here]!" for any issue.

That's meaningless as an argument, unless you are role-playing. (In which case, I try not to argue with roleplayers who are spewing apologia for Altmer supremacy/Dunmer slavery as part of their role-playing. That's not my scene.)


Something I think you elided is that not everyone is comfortable with roleplaying characters who justify the darker aspects of their society, nor do they have to be. There are counterexamples - Ayrenn and Ilmeni Dren come to mind for the Altmer and Dunmer respectively. Both of them condemn certain aspects of their own society they disagree with. For a non-elven example, TES V has Ulfric and Brunwulf Free-Winter in the same city with opposite views on Nord-Dunmer racism. "Skyrim for the Nords" is a viewpoint you can roleplay if you want to, but no one has to roleplay their Nord that way if the racism associated with that makes them uncomfortable.

To a player who's uncomfortable with Altmer supremacy or Dunmer slavery, but still wants to roleplay one, I'd suggest the opposite of you: don't try to justify the stuff that makes you uncomfortable. Instead, look for ways to roleplay your character as better than the aspect of their society that's not good. Nobody has to roleplay their support for the nastier, even evil, aspects of any TES society if they don't want to.

Aristocles22

The difference between the Nord's racism and that of the elves is that the latter is an inherent part of their culture, while the former was influenced by specific events such as the war between the empire and the dominion. Elven beliefs are such that they see themselves as simply born better and purer than humans, regardless of any specific grievances. The Nords can at least name things the elves actually did to them which they resent, such as killing those (Atmoran and therefore proto-Nordic) settlers in Saarthal, or banning Talos worship. The Nords never went around claiming that elves were categorically inferior to them as a matter of birth or that elves should be erased from the world, as the worst of the elves want to do to humans. Or even the possibility of humans. And the world itself.

Seriously, the elven ideal is the elimination of Nirn and the alleged resumption of pure spiritual existence for the elves, totally unbound by linear time and space as we know them. For elves, the world was a cosmic mistake of the highest order; a tragedy brought about by Lorkhan. For humans, the creation of the world was an act of supreme divine benevolence. Those two world views don't mix very well.

I suppose the elves who have the closest view of the world next to humans is the Dunmer, who still view the world as a mistake, but have come to see it also as an arena, or a test to see if they are worthy of achieving godhood again, with the Tribunal as "proof" that godhood could be attained once more. We don't have all the details on the new temple of the 4th era, but having resumed worship of the "good" daedra and having relegate the Tribunal down to only saints instead of gods would probably change their views on how to achieve godhood. That, and they presumably learned that the Tribunal stole their power from Lorkhan's heart, power from the very trickster who had allegedly trapped them in the material world to begin with.That revelation couldn't have been easy for them to digest.

Athan1

DocFrost72 wrote: »

One thing I noticed in a second pass...

However, after clearing all AD and Summerset content, and now going through EP/Morrowind content, I've come to see how terrible the elves are. All of them! In different ways. Altmer, Dunmer, and Dwemer are literal nazis, chauvinists, snobs... They insult everyone and feel superior to everything. On the other hand we have Orsimer and Bosmer who are primitive, feral...

*Leans on the counter.*

Wood elves are not primitive. They have advanced magic capable of creating infrastructure (including massive sprawling cities), and have every bit of cultural development any other race does. They have religion, morals, education, master craftsmen, and a system of governance and law fully fleshed out. That it looks different from yours doesn't mean they're primitive. As for feral, I assume that's leveled straight at the orcs? Let's not confuse militarism with barbarism (though there are certainly some orcs that fit that bill).

Given the original topic, the irony here is a bit thick.

I definitely see your point here what I meant was the Bosmer shape-shifting nature, where they can basically go feral at any point and start killing mindlessly and join the great hunt under stress... see Mabalal tor storyline, city of Ash 1 or the feral bosmer quest... ofc they have their culture but this doesn't mean they aren't beasts just marginally kept at a civilized level.

DocFrost72

Athan1 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

One thing I noticed in a second pass...

However, after clearing all AD and Summerset content, and now going through EP/Morrowind content, I've come to see how terrible the elves are. All of them! In different ways. Altmer, Dunmer, and Dwemer are literal nazis, chauvinists, snobs... They insult everyone and feel superior to everything. On the other hand we have Orsimer and Bosmer who are primitive, feral...

*Leans on the counter.*

Wood elves are not primitive. They have advanced magic capable of creating infrastructure (including massive sprawling cities), and have every bit of cultural development any other race does. They have religion, morals, education, master craftsmen, and a system of governance and law fully fleshed out. That it looks different from yours doesn't mean they're primitive. As for feral, I assume that's leveled straight at the orcs? Let's not confuse militarism with barbarism (though there are certainly some orcs that fit that bill).

Given the original topic, the irony here is a bit thick.

I definitely see your point here what I meant was the Bosmer shape-shifting nature, where they can basically go feral at any point and start killing mindlessly and join the great hunt under stress... see Mabalal tor storyline, city of Ash 1 or the feral bosmer quest... ofc they have their culture but this doesn't mean they aren't beasts just marginally kept at a civilized level.

Ah, the Wild Hunt. It definitely seems scary on the outside, but it is a specific condition.

In the beginning, the bosmer had no defined shape. Spinners tell of the Storyteller, he who gave the elves their very own shape and forbid them from changing it.

Funny enough I'm not sure if this is uniquely bosmer, or just a bosmer take on the void and the sacrifice of the divine to produce the Mundus.

Either way, bosmer aren't feral creatures innately. They can become that under the influence of Y'ffre, not at will. Some stories claim some bosmer are natural shape shifters, however. That part is true, to my understanding.

My rebuttal would be the wyrd, who cut the hearts from sacrifices to commune with a daedric Prince (Hircine) for power. My rebuttal would be the Legion Zero, those who willingly sold their souls to Molag Bal for power and riches, sacrificing the Imperial city and the countless souls within it.

If one subsection of bosmer capable of doing less than civilized things makes them all "beasts kept marginally civilized", then surely bretons and imperials are power hungry daedra worshippers?

Athan1

Who said men are better? this thread was about the ugly nature of elves. We can make more threads about the ugly sides of other races!

vestahls

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Before you condemn an Altmer put yourself in their shoes and see the world through their eyes. Its not that you "think" you are better... you "ARE" better than humans who are weakened souls that wandered away when the elfnofey were safe in aldmeris.

This. Elves don't just believe they're descended from gods, they literally are.

Even the humans who hate the Altmer, recognise this is true and they resent them for it. The empire even tried, and manage, to break apart Auri-el from Akatosh so that they didn't have to worship an altmer ancestor as a god, just cause they hated elves so much.

RaddlemanNumber7

Let us not forget the Bosmers' cannibalism. It is a cultural norm, mandated in law, both ancient and modern. It is not an aberration or a bit of private enterprise conducted by wayward individuals. In Dread Vulain we see the Meat Mandate in history. In Willowgrove we see a present-day example of Bosmer cannibalism as a legal sanction for breach of contract. Cannibalism is part of the Green Pact.

As for "feral", that is not so much the current state of Bosmer as their inevitable destination. Bosmer are by their very nature wild, animalistic spirits. They have been tamed and domesticated by the Green Pact. When the Green Pact breaks down, that's when they become feral, reverting to the ravening creatures of the Wild Hunt.

The Green Pact has made the Bosmer tame cannibals rather than wild ones.

DocFrost72

Athan1 wrote: »

Who said men are better? this thread was about the ugly nature of elves. We can make more threads about the ugly sides of other races!

Touche! Everyone stinks is a motto i can get behind xD

VaranisArano

vestahls wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Before you condemn an Altmer put yourself in their shoes and see the world through their eyes. Its not that you "think" you are better... you "ARE" better than humans who are weakened souls that wandered away when the elfnofey were safe in aldmeris.

This. Elves don't just believe they're descended from gods, they literally are.

Even the humans who hate the Altmer, recognise this is true and they resent them for it. The empire even tried, and manage, to break apart Auri-el from Akatosh so that they didn't have to worship an altmer ancestor as a god, just cause they hated elves so much.

And while we're talking about why certain races do what they do, let's not pretend that the Empire did so merely out of resentment for elven Aedric ancestry. What the Ayleids did to inspire Alessia to rebel was a brutal regime of murder and slavery. They had reasons to absolutely hate elves, and in their rebellion, gave elves new reasons to hate and fear humans.


That's one of the true joys of TES lore and role-playing. Everyone can justify what they've done from their own perspective. If you talk objectively about it, elven-human conflicts have atrocities and justifications aplenty on both sides. TES is not a morally black-and-white franchise.

Furthermore, the TES games also recognize that just because someone feels justified in their actions doesn't mean there aren't consequences for how they treated others.


Just look at Dunmer Slavery: sure, the Dunmer believe themselves justified...only to watch Morrowind's defeat and invasion by the vengeful Saxheel after Baar Dau fell. You mean that the Argonians who defeated their Oblivion Gates aren't going to roll over and stay our slaves? *shocked pikachu face*

You can believe yourself justified in kicking a man or elf or beastfolk...but you can't act shocked when he gives you a solid kicking when you fall down in turn.

Cundu_Ertur

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I have two Altmer RP characters. I have distanced them from mainstream High Elf culture in their backstories. Both of my Altmer are narrated first as hulkynd, and then as solitary ascetics prior to them becoming the Vestige. Being complicit in the Altmers' unenlightened supremacism is not my fantasy.

I have two Dunmer as well, although they've both been benched for quite a while. If I start playing them again I'll have to write them backstories which disassociate them from the Great Houses and the Tribunal. The Tribunal and their servants are the very epitome of taboo-breaking vileness. Again, not my fantasy. Race change to Imperial, or maybe Argonian would be one way out for them.

You can RP as ashlanders and avoid some of the things you find problematic. It's a thing: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ashlander_Tribes_and_Customs is a good source of background knowledge, the Zainab or Ahemmusa tribes would be logical sources for someone who would be able to get along well with outsiders.

ealdwin

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

they screwed the direnni out of existence

And the Direnni screwed the Bretons into existence.

Minyassa

I have to agree. And I didn't really think so until going to Summerset. The bigoted bunch in Auridon was gross, but they were also the bad guys and we get to fight them, so proper ***-punching ensued. But man...I thought the guards in Tamriel were rude, but *clerks* in Summerset take the cake. Doesn't matter what race I'm playing (I have some of all of them), they are just absolutely the mouthiest, most aggro, judgy, mind-bogglingly rude people I've dealt with in *any* game. Those bankers in Alinor, holy *crow*. I can only imagine that the only reason they don't get fired for those mouths is because their bosses are just like them.