Fake Tank Solution Proposal

AyaDark · November 2020

what is motivation for tank go randoms ? I go there 2 days before, 2 hours for vdlc we can duo for 40 minutes.
For DD it is fun, what is fun for tank to res 3 players on CD and go 2 times longer ?

If some good reward for the role that is not enough, may by i would go tank, but what is the point if no reward ?

If good reward, than it would be more tanks may be and if he is not good youcan kick bad fakes.

LashanW · November 2020

idk wrote: »

So you want Zos to add mechanics to the fight that would force everyone to run a perfect trinity even when they are skilled enough to clear the content without a perfect trinity.

Yeah I agree its way too drastic and unnecessary for skilled pre-made groups. But only way to prevent fake tanks is to make sure the content is not possible to be completed without a taunt (since fake tank = no taunts). But that causes a whole different spectrum of issues. I guess there really isn't much solution to the fake tanks using the group finder, other than not using the group finder.

I honestly dislike the 2 untauntable bosses in this game, investigator Garron and Drodda. Don't see any point to them. Glad ZoS never designed any boss like them after base game. Though if base game bosses don't hit hard enough, that's a different problem imo.

Btw I only use the term tank for the person with the taunt. Nothing else. They can do other stuff like debuffing and dpsing or healing. What tanks do other than taunting is up to them. For darkshade 2 last boss I swap to dps sets and use healing orb, if was in tank role.

Kurat · November 2020

Fake roles are fine as long as the dungeon gets done. But if the faker prevents clearing or makes it extremely tedious then kick. Same goes for real roles if they are just bad.
Theres no need to add any checks or special queues. It all depends which dungeon you're running and competency of the group. Some fake tanks can easily manage vet while some cant do normal. If the run doesn't go too well then just kick. Heck I even have to kick real tanks from vet dlcs because they cant handle it.

WeerW3ir · November 2020

Beside Fake Tanks are like Fake DOoRs and FaKE tAXI. 🤪

Zodiarkslayer · November 2020

The best aspect about ESO is its build freedom. And the amount of content, that one can complete with it.
Any restriction to build freedom is harming the Game itself. Even extreme solutions, like a complete removal of the GF, is only harming the game at its core.

People need to get their expectations straight.

Personally I hate Fake Healers and super lowbie players (lvl20 and such) more than Fake Tanks. Especially playing as a Real Tank. That is why I only do Random Veteran anymore. The average of player level and player skill is just higher. That solved almost all frustration problems for me. Plus you get more Rewards!

From what I hear and read, the Group Finder is due for a rework. And that for a way longer time than I play ESO. It is just that this requires a lot of work and dedication and has general gameplay rebalance issues attached to it, that it probably never is gonna happen. And I am glad, that ZOS currently focusses on the more serious issues at hand.

Grandchamp1989 · November 2020

idk wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The basic requirement for a tank is to have a taunt, nothing more. So Zos can require a player to have a taunt unlocked and can even require them to have it slotted to queue as a tank. The fake tank can swap it out after they get into a group or just not use it.

I'd like an "enrage" mechanic from dungeon bosses as a solution. Just an idea.

If a taunt is not applied on the bosses in the first 5-10 seconds they would enrage (gaining a big damage shield and doing very high dmg to everyone). Application of a taunt would remove this enraged state if tank was late for some reason. It would also discourage other roles from running ahead by themselves and engaging the bosses before tank can catch up. If your group can kill the boss in less than 10 seconds fake tanking shouldn't be much of a problem anyway.
However players must be made aware of this effect, by showing a notification window when you queue for tank for the first time in your character as well as properly saying this in death recap, should the players die to an enraged boss.

Of course there'd be cases that need adjustments, such as tank disconnecting or tank leaving the group (other 3 players shouldn't be blocked from progressing the dungeon in such cases).

So you want Zos to add mechanics to the fight that would force everyone to run a perfect trinity even when they are skilled enough to clear the content without a perfect trinity.

There are many fights where a tank is virtually useless. Much of Direfrost Keep and especially the last boss do not need a tank. Drodda pretty much ignores the taunt. Spindleclutch II final boss does not need a tank. At least two bosses in Darkshade II, including the Engine Guardian, do not need a tank. What is a tank going to do with the Engin Guardian? Nothing in Vaults of Madness requires a tank. I have cleared VoM dozens of times with just four DPS.

I am speaking exclusively of vet HM. I could list more but I think I have made my point that there are many fights that the taunt is useless (especially if the undaunted taunt) and a great many where it is virtually useless.

As a result, forcing everyone to use a taunt does not make sense.

Edit: BTW, I usually tank so I am fairly aware of when I am useless as a tank.

You're not wrong, some of the design decisions of Zos literally blows my mind.

Spider in Darkshade II - Taunt immune
Drodda in Direfrost - Ignores your taunt
Volenfell final boss - red Centurion is in constant rage mode and will ignore taunts
Lamia Queen in Arx Corinium ignores taunt during her rage phase - and she's raging 95% of the time
Wayrest 1 - first boss Inspector Gavon? - Completely ignores taunts
Other bosses respond to taunt but will still have mechs that smack your team around like: last boss of Tempest Island, Banished Cell final boss.

So many bosses where if the team doesn't know how to tank themselves they'll think you're doing something wrong as the tank. Why they would exclude the fundamental tank mechanic (taunt-aggro) on so many bosses is beyond me.

But then again, they expect healers to heal through one-shots so I tend to question their mech design decisions for supports quite a lot.

Dungeons tend to be really unfriendly towards supports so it's in some way quite natural people will drift towards DPS.
That part is on Zos... And I hope they find more creative ways in the future to challenge all the roles and not make them "useless" in certain fights and match ups.

redlink1979 · November 2020

NO.

1) If you use the finder tool for a PUG, just DON'T fake your role!
2) If you want to fake a role, make a group with friends/guild mates.

Some people create solutions for problems, others create problems for solutions...

WeerW3ir · November 2020

Alone you should not even queue as fake anything into vet dungeon. Normal sure. Whatever. I do that too. But vet. Just why.. Its like "a'ight. Time to waste my, and the others time"

zvavi · November 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Other bosses respond to taunt but will still have mechs that smack your team around like: last boss of Tempest Island

last boss in tempest only jumps at the furthest enemy if you are too far away from her, as long as everyone are near (just go inside the red aoe after it is gone) she never jumps.

Jolsyf · November 2020

Fake tanks are usually after gear from the dungeon, simply don't give the piece they need and they'll stop doing it

Mettaricana · November 2020

Allow 4 dps 1 healer and a tank in adjust dungeons accordingly it would eat a few more of the stuck in limbo dd that are waiting it would up trade options at the end encourage groups to do more than 4 ppl content, and i like the reqs needed idea though flawed cuz of gear swapping only way i see that working is cannot change gear once inside dungeon that would cause even more issues

eluxo · November 2020

Hi,

Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »

Tank:
Min 25k HP

Min 20k Resistance

Have shield slotted

Have taunt skill slotted

I guess that there are a lot ppl around facing the same problem and really disliking the point that some ppl don't queue with their proper roles. I dislike ppl that queue as tanks but don't do their job as well, but I guess that your approach does not work.

First of all: You cannot prevent players from skipping gear after they joined the dungeon. And then: You specifications are not how ESO works.

Let me give you an example: I have been running vWGT+HM with randoms on my sorc on 22k life, going dual staff (so no shield slotted) playing on 18k resistance base playing on critical surge, boundless storm and just using a taunt. As long as the healer is also doing the job, there is no need to even have a shield slotted. This does (of course) not apply a lot of debuffs to the bosses, but on the other hand, I can easily run 30k+ DPS while tanking the bosses.

Depending on the tanks skill and the played content, that is a completely valid way on playing. Also you definition of "resistance" is not very useful, as I tend to run vCR(+1, ...) as a tank in light armor, as there is basically no pyhsical damage in the raid. Thus, I have around 18+ pyhsical resistance and around 22k magical (as long as I am unbuffed). While this is an option in some content, that completely does not work in other content.

The rules kind of apply as long as you keep ppl out of focus that have been playing endgame for a while. At that stage you learn that some things are not that tighly bound to resistance, HP, skills, etc.

One more thing: There are also situations where I am going in as a tank and I have not even a taunt slotted in favor for other skills and playing the Tormentor set, as this allows me to AOE taunt a lot of enemies in dungeons that have a lot of trash running around.

So, to sum it up: I understand your considerations and I see that they can seem to be an obvious solution to the problem. But if you look at them from a different perspective, I could also build you a tank (and I guess that works for the healer as well) that is able to tank a lot of content completely fine while not even applying to any of your rules.

Curious_Death · November 2020

"
DD:

Min 35k DPS on the 6m trial dummy.
"

que time as tank from 2 min ==> 2 days

AyaDark · November 2020

Curious_Death wrote: »

"
DD:

Min 35k DPS on the 6m trial dummy.
"

que time as tank from 2 min ==> 2 days

I do not think so, 30+ is possible to make on 1 button, so 2 buttons for 35 k is not as hard to make

MirandaSharp · November 2020

Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »

Solution:
This idea has been floated around by others, it is the idea of having two types of queues.
Casual = No role requirement queue

Serious = Role required queue (1 tank, 2 DDs, 1 healer)

Just give people the option to accept the group match up with basic info on players, like roles and attribute distribution. Then it's up to the player to press "ready"/"accept", just like now.

That way you can choose not to play in a group with a 15K health tank, a stamina only healer or a DD with more health than offensive stats etc... Let it be up to the players themselves instead of ZOS dictatorship.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · November 2020

I had an idea with a friend last night
Having buff/debuff depending on your active role

For exemple with totaly made up number that would need to be reajusted

For tank
-75% damage done
+25% shields strength
-10% damage received
+10%self heal
-10% healing done to other player
+10%healing received
For Healer
-50%damage done
+20%healing done
+10%duration for buff you aply to other player
+10% duration for debuf to pve ennemie
For dps
+x%damage done(this one could be use to take back the dps loss from previous role)
-10%healing done
+ 5% dammage received

Those would need serious balancing before going live

I think something like thiss would encourage people to play their role
I mean would a dps still queu as a tank with a dps loss of 75%?

Jeremy · November 2020

Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »

What is a fake tank?
A tank's role is described as taunting (taking aggro from mobs/boss), basically diverting the damage to himself rather than the group. A bad tank is NOT a fake tank. This means if a DDs with zero attributes in health can still be a tank if they have the correct gears and taunt. A fake tank is a DD (or even a healer) queues as a tank role and has no gear or skills required to be one like having less than 15k hp and no taunt. In optimal and experienced groups, tanks are required to debuff enemy and buff group DPS as well but we are talking about GF here so this is not a necessity but more of a luxury.

Just one minor point I want to make:

But the description of tank also says Absorbs damage from enemies and prevents allies from being attacked.

So I think in order to be a real tank one does need at least enough defense to handle the damage being aimed at him or her. I would consider a DD running around with low health and defenses taunting and then getting slaughtered as a result to be a fake tank.

zaria · November 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I really like the idea of casual (no limit) que and a serious que.

Many games does the same.

It's called ranked and unranked.

In unranked it's the wild west were you try out new things and experiment.
Ranked is where you use that which works. 1-2-1
If you want bars for VETERAN it should be extremely laughably low like:
Tank: A taunt is slotted
Healer: An AOE heal is slotted
DPS: 15k on a 3 mill dummy

This should get you trough all non dlc vet dungeons without much problems.
Perhaps demand some account experience in normal dungeons, not character as you can level up farming skillponts and books. But you know some dungeons are harder than others and the basics.

MirandaSharp · November 2020

Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »

I mean would a dps still queu as a tank with a dps loss of 75%?

A terrible (non)solution! Many dps players can tank just fine in medium armor, sword and shield plus undaunted skills. Same with tanky frost/mag players. For normal dungeons and dailies they're plenty tanky and they'll carry lower dps players. For vet DLC dungeons and vet trials, that's obviously not going to cut it. But honestly how often do you get fake tanks in that kind of content?

jekyto · November 2020

The solution is called gear score. The game is able to inspect your gear and decide if youre ok to go for the dungeon you want. Is a feature that is added to a new MMO coming soon, but i guess this requires some coding skills to run properly

erio · November 2020

No dps requirements, thats bad for the game. Force tanks to have a taunt slotted to queue with randos. Players should votekick fake tanks

linuxlady · November 2020

Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »

Background:
This idea stemmed from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/548925/fake-tanking.
Currently group finder (GF) requires one tank, two damage dealers (DD) and one healer. Being a MMO, the game's population has a lot more DDs than tanks and healers combined. This leads to long queue times for DDs (20-40mins queue times and sometimes it lingers over an hour). Tanks have around instant to 5mins queue time and healers have around 5-10mins queue time. Because of the short queue time of tanks and healers, DDs change their role to tank to speed up their queue time.

What is a fake tank?
A tank's role is described as taunting (taking aggro from mobs/boss), basically diverting the damage to himself rather than the group. A bad tank is NOT a fake tank. This means if a DDs with zero attributes in health can still be a tank if they have the correct gears and taunt. A fake tank is a DD (or even a healer) queues as a tank role and has no gear or skills required to be one like having less than 15k hp and no taunt. In optimal and experienced groups, tanks are required to debuff enemy and buff group DPS as well but we are talking about GF here so this is not a necessity but more of a luxury.

Problem:
This game's dungeon difficulty scales from normal base game (T3) to vet base game/normal dlc (T2) to vet dlc (T1). I am generalizing here and not an actual representation of the dungeon's difficulties. T2 and T1 can be very challenging if the tank is not effective at taking aggro and surviving. If the tank doesn't take aggro, the mobs/boss will attack DDs and healer which leads to a wipe. If the tank can't survive, the mobs/boss will attack the DDs and healer which leads to a wipe. You guys get the point. No tank support = dead group.

Fake tanks have caused many failed T2 and T1 dungeon runs and wasted everyone's time. However T3 is the grey area, they are extremely easy and can be done in 5 mins with a half decent 4 DD group but does that mean this is the right thing to do? The community is split on this. One end thinking it is okay to fake tank on T3 dungeons but sometimes people overestimate their abilities and fake tank on T2 and even T1 dungeons. The other end thinks this is harmful to the community and is an exploit of the GF.

Solution:
This idea has been floated around by others, it is the idea of having two types of queues.
Casual = No role requirement queue

Serious = Role required queue (1 tank, 2 DDs, 1 healer)

Casual queue is exactly what you think it means. Anyone can queue without specifying any roles. This will allow the experienced or time limited players to quickly find a dungeon group and do their daily and pledges. Players queuing into casual will go in with the knowledge that they should not expect anything out of the other players as this is a casual queue. Meaning there could be no tank, no healer and bad DDs. Thus they can be prepared to bring self sustain skills/gears. No one should complain if their group is bad because this is the definition of casual queue. For all those DDs that are fake tanking or even fake healing, they can use casual queue because it is basically no different from the current GF.

Serious queue requires roles and will need set requirements met by each player respective to their role. Why? Because that is the only way to enforce it. I'm going to give some starter numbers and requirements only for the purpose of this discussion. It does not represent what I actually think the requirement should be.

Tank:
Min 25k HP

Min 20k Resistance

Have shield slotted

Have taunt skill slotted

Healer:
Min 30k Magicka

Have restoration staff slotted

Have min 3 restoration staff skills slotted

DD requirement is tricky because anyone can do damage, so wait... why do we need requirements for DDs?Simple answer is players queuing into serious queue will want others to be half decent so we can't exclude DD from this. I've done many T2 dungeons as a healer and the DPS of the DDs are just abysmal causing several wipes and a horrible experience. The only method I can think of measuring a requirement for DD is a dummy parse number. Yes, I know a parse number does not represent a player's knowledge of dungeon mechanics and how they play in a real dungeon environment. A dummy parse number DOES represent how well a player knows DPS mechanics and their rotation. In most cases, a player that spends time into knowing their rotation will have at least basic knowledge on dungeon mechanics. My suggestion is for ZOS to add a solo instance of a dummy parse room near the Undaunted Enclaves. This room will contain a 6m trial dummy (basically the 21m dummy but with 6m health) so it isn't intimidating to new players.

DD:
Min 35k DPS on the 6m trial dummy.

Conclusion:
This will solve the two problems. Experienced players wanting to fake tank T3 and T2 dungeons for a quick run. New/experienced players that want a good dungeon run without having to worry about fake roles.

What about the new players that cannot meet the requirement of the serious queue?
IMO, the requirements are quite low and easily achievable at CP 160.

They can use the casual queue and maybe the players are nice enough to not rush through everything

Join a guild, there are PLENTY of beginner friendly guilds that are more than willing to help

Lower the serious queue requirements even more and add a super serious queue with higher requirements.

I get that people can easily switch gears once they are in the dungeon. But if they've already spent the effort and time in meeting the requirements (leveling resto skill line, getting tank gears, getting taunt skill), they have essentially fulfilled that role. This is not an end all and be all solution but I think it will help the case of the fake tank, fake healer and fake/bad DPS problem.

Thanks for reading everyone and I look forward to the discussions.

TLDR:
Have two queues to satisfy everyone. One without roles and one with roles with requirements.

We do have 2 queues now. casuals as yo call them use the group finder without selecting people from their guild and preforming a group. the serious players as you call them, preform their group with friends from guilds befor queueing in the group finder

problem solved

Bisbatron · November 2020

So players who aren't experienced or are new, and aren't able to hit a dps threshold, don't know about resistances, or only have 1 or 2 heals slotted etc only have the option of the "good luck on getting a group with a tank and a healer" queue? Seems fair.

hexnotic · November 2020

nukk3r wrote: »

How about no? You're trying to divide an already divided community even more. If you don't want fake roles, don't PUG.

I agree with your post, and the OPs. If the queue wasn't so sparse already I think this suggestion the OP made about separate queues is a great suggestion. However, the reality our dungeon queue exists in is not adequate for said suggestion.

idk · November 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The basic requirement for a tank is to have a taunt, nothing more. So Zos can require a player to have a taunt unlocked and can even require them to have it slotted to queue as a tank. The fake tank can swap it out after they get into a group or just not use it.

I'd like an "enrage" mechanic from dungeon bosses as a solution. Just an idea.

If a taunt is not applied on the bosses in the first 5-10 seconds they would enrage (gaining a big damage shield and doing very high dmg to everyone). Application of a taunt would remove this enraged state if tank was late for some reason. It would also discourage other roles from running ahead by themselves and engaging the bosses before tank can catch up. If your group can kill the boss in less than 10 seconds fake tanking shouldn't be much of a problem anyway.
However players must be made aware of this effect, by showing a notification window when you queue for tank for the first time in your character as well as properly saying this in death recap, should the players die to an enraged boss.

Of course there'd be cases that need adjustments, such as tank disconnecting or tank leaving the group (other 3 players shouldn't be blocked from progressing the dungeon in such cases).

So you want Zos to add mechanics to the fight that would force everyone to run a perfect trinity even when they are skilled enough to clear the content without a perfect trinity.

There are many fights where a tank is virtually useless. Much of Direfrost Keep and especially the last boss do not need a tank. Drodda pretty much ignores the taunt. Spindleclutch II final boss does not need a tank. At least two bosses in Darkshade II, including the Engine Guardian, do not need a tank. What is a tank going to do with the Engin Guardian? Nothing in Vaults of Madness requires a tank. I have cleared VoM dozens of times with just four DPS.

I am speaking exclusively of vet HM. I could list more but I think I have made my point that there are many fights that the taunt is useless (especially if the undaunted taunt) and a great many where it is virtually useless.

As a result, forcing everyone to use a taunt does not make sense.

Edit: BTW, I usually tank so I am fairly aware of when I am useless as a tank.

You're not wrong, some of the design decisions of Zos literally blows my mind.

Spider in Darkshade II - Taunt immune
Drodda in Direfrost - Ignores your taunt
Volenfell final boss - red Centurion is in constant rage mode and will ignore taunts
Lamia Queen in Arx Corinium ignores taunt during her rage phase - and she's raging 95% of the time
Wayrest 1 - first boss Inspector Gavon? - Completely ignores taunts
Other bosses respond to taunt but will still have mechs that smack your team around like: last boss of Tempest Island, Banished Cell final boss.

So many bosses where if the team doesn't know how to tank themselves they'll think you're doing something wrong as the tank. Why they would exclude the fundamental tank mechanic (taunt-aggro) on so many bosses is beyond me.

But then again, they expect healers to heal through one-shots so I tend to question their mech design decisions for supports quite a lot.

Dungeons tend to be really unfriendly towards supports so it's in some way quite natural people will drift towards DPS.
That part is on Zos... And I hope they find more creative ways in the future to challenge all the roles and not make them "useless" in certain fights and match ups.

It should not blow your mind. Many of the fights you mention are make players use the basic skill Zos gave every character. Sadly we have a lot of players who lack understanding of even the basics which makes the fights more challenging than they have to be.

For the spider in Darkshade II I assume you mean the Engine Guardian. Again, the players merely need to pay attention. It is intended that during the poison phase we flip the switches to end it or stay near the healer for heals. For the lightning phase it is best to stay away from the fight. Of course, kill adds when they spawn. It requires the simple skill of paying attention.
Drodda, we need to move when she ports to us and break free when channeling. That is simple enough. The tank can control the adds which is more of an issue with low DPS groups.
Volenfell - simply kite the red Centurion when it is aggroed on you.

Also, I cannot think of a one-shot mechanic that will one-shot a player if they or the group does the mechanics properly. Unfortunately, I have seen many oblivious to the advanced telegraph telling them the boss is about to do a PBAoE and instead stand and die in it time and time again. Traditionally that is called standing in stupid and it has been said in many MMORPGs that healers cannot heal stupid. It is literally put that way.

Raideen · November 2020

idk wrote: »

It should not blow your mind. Many of the fights you mention are make players use the basic skill Zos gave every character. Sadly we have a lot of players who lack understanding of even the basics which makes the fights more challenging than they have to be.

UI design 101, if the client (customer) is not reading the UI well, it's not the fault of the client/customer. The business can either accept this and make changes, or ignore this and keep blaming the customer for the businesses failings.

idk wrote: »

Also, I cannot think of a one-shot mechanic that will one-shot a player if they or the group does the mechanics properly.

Can you explain the instant kill that happens on Imperfect. I was running it with my GF the other day. I was tanking, she was on her sorc. When the adds spawned she was getting one shot. This happened 3 times. Neither of us can figure out what mechanic we are not paying attention to. I have the boss faced away from her. I try to pick up the adds ASAP, but its hard with no AOE taunt. She has 20.5k health, which should be more than enough but she was still getting 1 shot.

idk wrote: »

Unfortunately, I have seen many oblivious to the advanced telegraph telling them the boss is about to do a PBAoE and instead stand and die in it time and time again. Traditionally that is called standing in stupid and it has been said in many MMORPGs that healers cannot heal stupid. It is literally put that way.

This is one of my fundamental issues with ESO. The combat mechanics are not communicated in an obvious way. I can tell you as an absolute I have died multiple times with no telegraph forewarning me.