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Fake Tank Solution Proposal

Viewsfrom6ix
Viewsfrom6ix
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Background:
This idea stemmed from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/548925/fake-tanking.
Currently group finder (GF) requires one tank, two damage dealers (DD) and one healer. Being a MMO, the game's population has a lot more DDs than tanks and healers combined. This leads to long queue times for DDs (20-40mins queue times and sometimes it lingers over an hour). Tanks have around instant to 5mins queue time and healers have around 5-10mins queue time. Because of the short queue time of tanks and healers, DDs change their role to tank to speed up their queue time. 

What is a fake tank?
A tank's role is described as taunting (taking aggro from mobs/boss), basically diverting the damage to himself rather than the group. A bad tank is NOT a fake tank. This means if a DDs with zero attributes in health can still be a tank if they have the correct gears and taunt. A fake tank is a DD (or even a healer) queues as a tank role and has no gear or skills required to be one like having less than 15k hp and no taunt. In optimal and experienced groups, tanks are required to debuff enemy and buff group DPS as well but we are talking about GF here so this is not a necessity but more of a luxury.

Problem:
This game's dungeon difficulty scales from normal base game (T3) to vet base game/normal dlc (T2) to vet dlc (T1). I am generalizing here and not an actual representation of the dungeon's difficulties. T2 and T1 can be very challenging if the tank is not effective at taking aggro and surviving. If the tank doesn't take aggro, the mobs/boss will attack DDs and healer which leads to a wipe. If the tank can't survive, the mobs/boss will attack the DDs and healer which leads to a wipe. You guys get the point. No tank support = dead group. 

Fake tanks have caused many failed T2 and T1 dungeon runs and wasted everyone's time. However T3 is the grey area, they are extremely easy and can be done in 5 mins with a half decent 4 DD group but does that mean this is the right thing to do? The community is split on this. One end thinking it is okay to fake tank on T3 dungeons but sometimes people overestimate their abilities and fake tank on T2 and even T1 dungeons. The other end thinks this is harmful to the community and is an exploit of the GF.

Solution:
This idea has been floated around by others, it is the idea of having two types of queues. 
  • Casual = No role requirement queue
  • Serious = Role required queue (1 tank, 2 DDs, 1 healer)

Casual queue is exactly what you think it means. Anyone can queue without specifying any roles. This will allow the experienced or time limited players to quickly find a dungeon group and do their daily and pledges. Players queuing into casual will go in with the knowledge that they should not expect anything out of the other players as this is a casual queue. Meaning there could be no tank, no healer and bad DDs. Thus they can be prepared to bring self sustain skills/gears. No one should complain if their group is bad because this is the definition of casual queue. For all those DDs that are fake tanking or even fake healing, they can use casual queue because it is basically no different from the current GF.

Serious queue requires roles and will need set requirements met by each player respective to their role. Why? Because that is the only way to enforce it. I'm going to give some starter numbers and requirements only for the purpose of this discussion. It does not represent what I actually think the requirement should be.

Tank:
  • Min 25k HP
  • Min 20k Resistance
  • Have shield slotted
  • Have taunt skill slotted

Healer:
  • Min 30k Magicka
  • Have restoration staff slotted
  • Have min 3 restoration staff skills slotted

DD requirement is tricky because anyone can do damage, so wait... why do we need requirements for DDs?Simple answer is players queuing into serious queue will want others to be half decent so we can't exclude DD from this. I've done many T2 dungeons as a healer and the DPS of the DDs are just abysmal causing several wipes and a horrible experience. The only method I can think of measuring a requirement for DD is a dummy parse number. Yes, I know a parse number does not represent a player's knowledge of dungeon mechanics and how they play in a real dungeon environment. A dummy parse number DOES represent how well a player knows DPS mechanics and their rotation. In most cases, a player that spends time into knowing their rotation will have at least basic knowledge on dungeon mechanics. My suggestion is for ZOS to add a solo instance of a dummy parse room near the Undaunted Enclaves. This room will contain a 6m trial dummy (basically the 21m dummy but with 6m health) so it isn't intimidating to new players. 

DD:
  • Min 35k DPS on the 6m trial dummy.

Conclusion:
This will solve the two problems. Experienced players wanting to fake tank T3 and T2 dungeons for a quick run. New/experienced players that want a good dungeon run without having to worry about fake roles. 

What about the new players that cannot meet the requirement of the serious queue?
  • IMO, the requirements are quite low and easily achievable at CP 160. 
  • They can use the casual queue and maybe the players are nice enough to not rush through everything
  • Join a guild, there are PLENTY of beginner friendly guilds that are more than willing to help
  • Lower the serious queue requirements even more and add a super serious queue with higher requirements.

I get that people can easily switch gears once they are in the dungeon. But if they've already spent the effort and time in meeting the requirements (leveling resto skill line, getting tank gears, getting taunt skill), they have essentially fulfilled that role. This is not an end all and be all solution but I think it will help the case of the fake tank, fake healer and fake/bad DPS problem.

Thanks for reading everyone and I look forward to the discussions.

TLDR:
Have two queues to satisfy everyone. One without roles and one with roles with requirements.
Edited by Viewsfrom6ix on November 25, 2020 3:23PM
  • WeerW3ir
    WeerW3ir
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    why you have to make a so big fuss from it? lol
  • nukk3r
    nukk3r
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    How about no? You're trying to divide an already divided community even more. If you don't want fake roles, don't PUG.
  • Jeirno
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    1. Play magblade or any other Magicka, slot resto on backbar and have 3 skills. Que for the dungeon, get instant to 5min queue
    2. Enter dungeon change gear back with alpha gear/dressing room to full DD setup
    3. ???
    4. problem not solved
  • ssewallb14_ESO
    ssewallb14_ESO
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    I like the concept but this creates way more problems than it solves.
  • White wabbit
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    25k Hp isn’t that high , 20k resistance again easy to get on a dd so they pop a shield and taunt and still que ! Bypassing your solution
  • Viewsfrom6ix
    Viewsfrom6ix
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    I like the concept but this creates way more problems than it solves.

    Thanks, would love to hear more about the problems it can cause.
    25k Hp isn’t that high , 20k resistance again easy to get on a dd so they pop a shield and taunt and still que ! Bypassing your solution

    Like I mentioned in the post, the numbers are an example and doesn't not represent what I actually think the requirements should be
    nukk3r wrote: »
    How about no? You're trying to divide an already divided community even more. If you don't want fake roles, don't PUG.

    I am not here to impose my solution and definitely not claiming this will solve everything. I've only been playing for about 4 months and do not have the full context of the history of fake roles and the community's opinions. This is more of a proof of concept (POC) that I want to be critiqued on and refined. If ZOS does something, great, if not, no biggie. I just wanted to pick on people's brain on my POC as a newish player.
    Edited by Viewsfrom6ix on November 25, 2020 4:12PM
  • zvavi
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    If I upload a video of tanking vSCP without a taunt, nor losing bosses, where does it put me on the scale of requirements? Seriously though (just because I am too lazy to get my dk up and running), my frost/resto NB tank tanked vFV HM healerless and he doesnt answer your tank requirements.
  • zaria
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    Jeirno wrote: »
    1. Play magblade or any other Magicka, slot resto on backbar and have 3 skills. Que for the dungeon, get instant to 5min queue
    2. Enter dungeon change gear back with alpha gear/dressing room to full DD setup
    3. ???
    4. problem not solved
    Now this can happen but it will mostly happen if 1) little healing is needed, found I can go with BoL and healing ritual on templar often this let me backbar vMA staff. 2) group dps is very low.
    I also has an full healer setup then needed.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Viewsfrom6ix
    Viewsfrom6ix
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    zvavi wrote: »
    If I upload a video of tanking vSCP without a taunt, nor losing bosses, where does it put me on the scale of requirements? Seriously though (just because I am too lazy to get my dk up and running), my frost/resto NB tank tanked vFV HM healerless and he doesnt answer your tank requirements.

    I totally get that actual skill of a player is hard to measure. If you can do that then you can easily carry a casual queue group so it won't be any different from the current GF. And if you can tank vSCP without taunt, you most definitely have very competent teammates. The serious group is more for people that actually care about the groups role and maybe aren't so refined in skills themselves but meet the requirement.
  • zvavi
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    zvavi wrote: »
    If I upload a video of tanking vSCP without a taunt, nor losing bosses, where does it put me on the scale of requirements? Seriously though (just because I am too lazy to get my dk up and running), my frost/resto NB tank tanked vFV HM healerless and he doesnt answer your tank requirements.

    I totally get that actual skill of a player is hard to measure. If you can do that then you can easily carry a casual queue group so it won't be any different from the current GF. And if you can tank vSCP without taunt, you most definitely have very competent teammates. The serious group is more for people that actually care about the groups role and maybe aren't so refined in skills themselves but meet the requirement.

    Or I just use the fact that chains soft taunt for few seconds and spam the heck of them on the bosses. Nothing to do with my teammates.

    And my nb tank is built tanky. He is a tank. With support sets. He can hold his own even in bad groups.
    What I was getting at is that the requirements are not good. At all. Especially that 35k on a 6m dummy.
    Edited by zvavi on November 25, 2020 4:14PM
  • Viewsfrom6ix
    Viewsfrom6ix
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    zvavi wrote: »
    Or I just use the fact that chains soft taunt for few seconds and spam the heck of them on the bosses. Nothing to do with my teammates.

    And my nb tank is built tanky. He is a tank. With support sets. He can hold his own even in bad groups.
    What I was getting at is that the requirements are not good. At all. Especially that 35k on a 6m dummy.

    If it has "Nothing to do with my teammates.", then this is exact purpose of the casual queue.

    Like I mentioned in another comment and original post, the requirements are just examples... it does NOT represent what I actually think it should be.
    I am here to discuss what they should be if any.

    Edited by Viewsfrom6ix on November 25, 2020 4:20PM
  • stefj68
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    i heal very good on my stam warden, without a resto staff.......
  • stefj68
    stefj68
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    solution would be to make 6 person group... 1 tank - 1 heal - 4 dps... so queing as dps wont take 1h averyage, but closer to 10min max... and people will stop fake tanking!
  • Viewsfrom6ix
    Viewsfrom6ix
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    stefj68 wrote: »
    i heal very good on my stam warden, without a resto staff.......

    1. You can use casual queue
    2. You can slot resto staff and use serious queue and take it off. If you can heal very well without it, then no one complains and everyone is happy.

    Remember not everyone can heal like you without a resto staff.
  • ArchMikem
    ArchMikem
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    Serious queue requires roles and will need set requirements met by each player respective to their role. Why? Because that is the only way to enforce it. I'm going to give some starter numbers and requirements only for the purpose of this discussion. It does not represent what I actually think the requirement should be.

    Healer:
    • Min 30k Magicka
    • Have restoration staff slotted
    • Have min 3 restoration staff skills slotted

    My Healer only uses two from that line...
    CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA Two Star Warlord - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
    Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!
  • FrancisCrawford
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    3 restoration staff skills in a 4-person dungeon?? That's not even meta.

    I often go with as many as 4:
    • Radiating Regeneration
    • Combat Prayer
    • Siphon Spirit over Elemental Drain
    • Light's Champion over Warhorn or Barrier

    But I'm unusual. And even I will probably switch back to Elemental Drain in most cases after recent changes.
  • zvavi
    zvavi
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    zvavi wrote: »
    Or I just use the fact that chains soft taunt for few seconds and spam the heck of them on the bosses. Nothing to do with my teammates.

    And my nb tank is built tanky. He is a tank. With support sets. He can hold his own even in bad groups.
    What I was getting at is that the requirements are not good. At all. Especially that 35k on a 6m dummy.

    If it has "Nothing to do with my teammates.", then this is exact purpose of the casual queue.

    Like I mentioned in another comment and original post, the requirements are just examples... it does NOT represent what I actually think it should be.
    I am here to discuss what they should be if any.

    Look. What I was trying to say was that you parameters were miles away. Also that it puts all non meta builds far away. There is a much easier solution to what you have suggested though. A simple button, "enable irregular group compositions". That's it.
  • Sephyr
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    zvavi wrote: »
    zvavi wrote: »
    Or I just use the fact that chains soft taunt for few seconds and spam the heck of them on the bosses. Nothing to do with my teammates.

    And my nb tank is built tanky. He is a tank. With support sets. He can hold his own even in bad groups.
    What I was getting at is that the requirements are not good. At all. Especially that 35k on a 6m dummy.

    If it has "Nothing to do with my teammates.", then this is exact purpose of the casual queue.

    Like I mentioned in another comment and original post, the requirements are just examples... it does NOT represent what I actually think it should be.
    I am here to discuss what they should be if any.

    Look. What I was trying to say was that you parameters were miles away. Also that it puts all non meta builds far away. There is a much easier solution to what you have suggested though. A simple button, "enable irregular group compositions". That's it.

    I was about to say just this. There's more nuance than just what these requirement examples display and factors a good majority of well-synergized groups out if they want to run in serious vet-Dungeon progressions. There's also nothing that stops them from changing things once they're in the dungeon unless there's a locking mechanic - which also makes people forced into subjective playstyles. It's far easier for me to boot the fake tank than it would be to deal with something like this.
  • vgabor
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    No need for two queue or hard requirements or whatever, it was multiple times discussed that ZOS just simply need to make the fixed 1-1-2 group composition flexible. Then when you queueing for dungeon you set that you want the original 1T1H2D group or happy to run without healer or tank, and if there are not enough healer or tank in the queue those player who indicated they happy to run without them will sorted into 4D groups.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    There only are two kinds of gates that I think could ever be practical:

    1. Character level, as exist now.
    2. Achievement.

    By the achievement option I mean that you aren't allowed to queue for a harder dungeon unless you've accomplished enough in easier dungeons, perhaps specifically when you were queued in the same role.

    And by the way, this could apply to DDs just as it could to tanks or healers.
    Edited by FrancisCrawford on November 25, 2020 4:52PM
  • ArchMikem
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    By the achievement option I mean that you aren't allowed to queue for a harder dungeon unless you've accomplished enough in easier dungeons, perhaps specifically when you were queued in the same role.

    That's, actually not a bad idea. Using Achievements earned in Normal would allow you access to Veteran. Though most Achievements are earned by simply one run, and people are carried through all the time. There should be one that requires time spent, multiple runs.
    CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA Two Star Warlord - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
    Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!
  • Viewsfrom6ix
    Viewsfrom6ix
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    zvavi wrote: »

    Look. What I was trying to say was that you parameters were miles away. Also that it puts all non meta builds far away. There is a much easier solution to what you have suggested though. A simple button, "enable irregular group compositions". That's it.

    This is great! I definitely had in mind of the "enable irregular group compositions" but wanted to see if it was possible to have set requirements for people that care. Based on the responses so far it seems my example requirements are very bad which I totally understand because I haven't fully understood all roles yet.

    For the purpose of my proposal and curiosity, what would you and others recommend the requirements be for all roles? I like the idea of achievement FrancisCrawford mentioned since it applies to all roles.
    Edited by Viewsfrom6ix on November 25, 2020 4:57PM
  • zvavi
    zvavi
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    zvavi wrote: »

    Look. What I was trying to say was that you parameters were miles away. Also that it puts all non meta builds far away. There is a much easier solution to what you have suggested though. A simple button, "enable irregular group compositions". That's it.

    This is great! I definitely had in mind of the "enable irregular group compositions" but wanted to see if it was possible to have set requirements for people that care. Based on the responses so far it seems my example requirements are very bad which I totally understand because I haven't fully understood all roles yet.

    For the purpose of my proposal and curiosity, what would you and others recommend the requirements be for all roles?

    What I would recommend as requirements? Aw boy you are now stuck with my ancient post

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524205/the-undaunted-certification-zvavi-is-bored-in-quarantine
    ArchMikem wrote: »
    By the achievement option I mean that you aren't allowed to queue for a harder dungeon unless you've accomplished enough in easier dungeons, perhaps specifically when you were queued in the same role.

    That's, actually not a bad idea. Using Achievements earned in Normal would allow you access to Veteran. Though most Achievements are earned by simply one run, and people are carried through all the time. There should be one that requires time spent, multiple runs.

    hell no. I am so burnt out of easy normals that when I reach vet I level undaunted exclusively in vDLC. You are going to lock me out.
    Edited by zvavi on November 25, 2020 4:59PM
  • Miszou
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    "Casual" queue in your scenario actually sounds harder than "serious" queue. At least if you queue seriously, you'll get a well-rounded group as opposed to hot mess of random roles.
  • stefj68
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    stefj68 wrote: »
    i heal very good on my stam warden, without a resto staff.......

    1. You can use casual queue
    2. You can slot resto staff and use serious queue and take it off. If you can heal very well without it, then no one complains and everyone is happy.

    Remember not everyone can heal like you without a resto staff.

    equipping a resto staff wont give me 30k magicka
    when full spec stamina
  • hizium
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    Casual queue is exactly what you think it means. Anyone can queue without specifying any roles. This will allow the experienced or time limited players to quickly find a dungeon group and do their daily and pledges.

    It looks like you forget about new and casual players. FOr some players, the normal content is one of the hardest content they made so far. One of the most irrational argument I see about this subject is people saying that there is no need for specific roles for normal dungeons. YES IT IS NEEDED because there's a lot of new nad casual players. Imagine how frustrating it is for some people that have around 2 to 5 hours per week for playing the game and when they think they are confident to play a normal dungeon (the hardest content they made so far) and there is no specific roles. It would be like a try hard players queueing for a Vet HM dungeon and there is no roles.
    Edited by hizium on November 25, 2020 5:21PM
  • VaranisArano
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    One problem is that casual/serious are actually the opposite of what you describe.

    Newer, inexperienced, and casual players have an easier time in groups that have support roles doing their jobs (tanks and healers). When a fake tank dumps aggro on their teammates, its the inexperienced ones who struggle the hardest.

    Which queue do you think they'll pick: "casual" or "serious"?

    They'll think, "I'm not ready for those "serious" players. I better join those casual groups that have no requirements!"

    And that's how the "casual, no roles" queue quickly becomes the "casual, no DPS" queue.
  • redspecter23
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    The solution already exists and it consists of only 4 words.

    Form a premade group.
  • Calm_Fury
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    I like the idea of another queue, but not sure it would work simply because it would divide the queue even more. It would be a start though.

    Now, for hard requirements for roles: I think this is a big no. We discussed this extensively in the original Fake Tanking thread. It just doesn't work in ESO.

    ESO works on an honour system, because build can still be effective with a wild variety of compositions.

    That is why my suggestion on that thread was to have:

    1. An official response from ZOS that this is an exploit of the Group Finder
    2. A specific way to report players that do this that would give them temporary bans from using the Group Finder if analysis showed they did fake their roles (just like the Social Ban).

    People that are fine with fake tanks in normal dungeons wouldn't report. But people that are aggravated and have their time wasted by fake tanks that prevent dungeon completion would.

    All in all, I think the only think we really need is to ZOS to say this is wrong.

    If we have an official position, this whole situation becomes a lot more manageable.
  • Grandchamp1989
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    I really like the idea of casual (no limit) que and a serious que.

    Many games does the same.

    It's called ranked and unranked.

    In unranked it's the wild west were you try out new things and experiment.
    Ranked is where you use that which works. 1-2-1
    If you want bars for VETERAN it should be extremely laughably low like:
    Tank: A taunt is slotted
    Healer: An AOE heal is slotted
    DPS: 15k on a 3 mill dummy
    Edited by Grandchamp1989 on November 25, 2020 5:44PM
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