Deconstructing Jewelry needs to give PLATING, not grains.

preevious · November 2020

While it is tedious to gring jewelry temper, I'll repeat a point already made, but that's easily forgotten.

Allowing an easier gring of plating would be extremely unfair for our leaderboard-seeking friends.
One of their perk (the only one?) is that they get gold jewels.
If anyone could golden a jewel for the same cost as golding another piece of gear, it would be unfair to them.

because let's face it : if plating drops instead of grains, the price of those mats will plummet HARD. Except if the drop rate is slashed, wich would be as frustrating as the grain system.

No escape.

EvilAutoTech · November 2020

Today I refined the mats I collected during the exploration event. I had from 1.6k to 2k of each type of raw materials (1.7k dust, 1.6k ore). I got 14 tempers, 6 rosin, 4 wax and a whopping 1 chromium grain. I also got 7 terne, 2 iridium and 4 zircon grains. 170 refinings and not enough to create any plantings.

tmbrinks · November 2020

This change gets made (as proposed)

Golden Vendor - worthless. AP loses its value as right now that's one of the main ways that PVPers make gold from their AP. Yes, they made the Alliance Potions better, so there is some value there.

Running Vet HM Trials/Leaderboard Scores - lose even more value, since, as many have pointed out, they reward gold jewelry (which coincidentally is really the only content you MIGHT NEED gold jewelry for... hmm), so you can save yourself the upgrade cost by running content at the end-game level.

So you're willing to destroy two other aspects of the game because it's "difficult" to upgrade something? That sounds pretty selfish to me personally.

Edit: spelling

redlink1979 · November 2020

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

(...)170 refinings and not enough to create any plantings.

I advise you to refine in smaller batches - my MO: refining batches of 20 (200 raw mats). If the ratio is bad, relog. If even then the ratio is still bad, relog again. Changing instance, by relog, changes your char's rng.

F22nickell · November 2020

I haven't been playing that long, but have 9 toons doing daily crafting writs, with two having maxed Jewelry skills. I've been upgrading my gear as I acquire Epic drops from the crafting writs and refining raw materials (primarily from Surveys.) I have not bought any epic material on a guild trader.

Of those Nine toons, I have 5 with full golded weapons and armor, the rest have Gold weapons and Purple armor ... Jewelry? I finally finished my 3rd golded piece last week. For the remaining toons, about half have Purple Jewelry, the rest have Blue.

From my experience, Jewelry Epic crafting drops are not even close to being comparable to the Wood, Blacksmith, and Clothing drops.

My recommendation is to get away from the Grains and go straight to Plating. Make the upgrade costs the same as others (1 Green/2 blue/4 purple/8 gold), and make the drop RNG the same as the other three. Lets make them all comparable*

*Maybe give Dreugh Wax a plus up as it is needed for so many more pieces than the other three.

Obsidian3 · November 2020

tmbrinks wrote: »

Obsidian3 wrote: »

I also understand the frustration. The 10 grain system, coupled with Jewelry nodes sharing space with Metal nodes and the horrible drop rate of Jewelry Crafting Surveys. It is super grindy. Now if we could get the drop rate of Jewelry surveys to match the Enchanting Survey drop rate we would be in a little better shape.

Agree with all your points... except the survey rate. They're the same. I have a link to my spreadsheet where I've track over 160,000 writs done and their drops. There is no statistical difference in the drop rates of surveys, jewelry or otherwise.

Cool, so I am just super lucky that Enchanter Survey's are the bulk of my survey drops!

F22nickell · November 2020

tmbrinks wrote: »

This change gets made (as proposed)

Golden Vendor - worthless. AP loses its value as right now that's one of the main ways that PVPers make gold from their AP. Yes, they made the Alliance Potions better, so there is some value there.

Running Vet HM Trials/Leaderboard Scores - lose even more value, since, as many have pointed out, they reward gold jewelry (which coincidentally is really the only content you MIGHT NEED gold jewelry for... hmm), so you can save yourself the upgrade cost by running content at the end-game level.

So you're willing to destroy two other aspects of the game because it's "difficult" to upgrade something? That sounds pretty selfish to me personally.

Edit: spelling

Advocating to not improve the game experience for 99+% of the players so the <1% of the "elite" can keep their "eliteness" sounds pretty selfish to me.

Emma_Overload · November 2020

preevious wrote: »

While it is tedious to gring jewelry temper, I'll repeat a point already made, but that's easily forgotten.

Allowing an easier gring of plating would be extremely unfair for our leaderboard-seeking friends.
One of their perk (the only one?) is that they get gold jewels.
If anyone could golden a jewel for the same cost as golding another piece of gear, it would be unfair to them.

because let's face it : if plating drops instead of grains, the price of those mats will plummet HARD. Except if the drop rate is slashed, wich would be as frustrating as the grain system.

No escape.

I've heard this argument before, and it's bunk. I've never even LOOKED at the leaderboards you're talking about, wouldn't even know where to find them, but I've been playing since launch. Nobody cares about leaderboards except a handful of hardcore guilds, and those guys are leaving every day from what I've heard. The economy of ESO is vast, and the demand for platings is orders of magnitude higher than whatever RNG delivers to a tiny faction of leaderboard enthusiasts. The crafting and upgrading activities of thousands and thousands of players exist on a plane far removed from those guys. Balancing plating drops around a few leaderboard try-hards is ridiculous!

I remember when the jewelry crafting system launched, and many reasonable, astute people on the forums immediately recognized that the upgrade mats were way too rare and were going to cost way too much. Then a bunch of forum know-it-alls assured us that mat prices would drop in a few weeks, and that jewelry tempers would be as cheap as everything else in no time. HAHAHAHAHA. Of course that's NOT what happened! Gold platings quickly hit an outrageous price of 75K each, and then started going UP. Last I checked, they were up to 125K or more. I'm sorry, but the current prices are obscene, and there is no possible argument that you could offer that would convince me they need to stay that high.

tmbrinks · November 2020

F22nickell wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

This change gets made (as proposed)

Golden Vendor - worthless. AP loses its value as right now that's one of the main ways that PVPers make gold from their AP. Yes, they made the Alliance Potions better, so there is some value there.

Running Vet HM Trials/Leaderboard Scores - lose even more value, since, as many have pointed out, they reward gold jewelry (which coincidentally is really the only content you MIGHT NEED gold jewelry for... hmm), so you can save yourself the upgrade cost by running content at the end-game level.

So you're willing to destroy two other aspects of the game because it's "difficult" to upgrade something? That sounds pretty selfish to me personally.

Edit: spelling

Advocating to not improve the game experience for 99+% of the players so the <1% of the "elite" can keep their "eliteness" sounds pretty selfish to me.

You're crazy if you think that <1% of the playerbase participates in trials and/or PVP. Your "argument" loses any strength when you use ridiculous numbers to "support" it. Please come back with something other than hyperbole, and we might have a conversation.

tmbrinks · November 2020

Obsidian3 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Obsidian3 wrote: »

I also understand the frustration. The 10 grain system, coupled with Jewelry nodes sharing space with Metal nodes and the horrible drop rate of Jewelry Crafting Surveys. It is super grindy. Now if we could get the drop rate of Jewelry surveys to match the Enchanting Survey drop rate we would be in a little better shape.

Agree with all your points... except the survey rate. They're the same. I have a link to my spreadsheet where I've track over 160,000 writs done and their drops. There is no statistical difference in the drop rates of surveys, jewelry or otherwise.

Cool, so I am just super lucky that Enchanter Survey's are the bulk of my survey drops!

I'm always willing to look at more data. But to this day, not a single person who makes anecdotal claims like this has been able to back it up with data.

I stick my neck out and actually show and share my data, freely available for everybody to look at. The absolute least you could do is to do the same before making your claims.

Disturbed_One · November 2020

sounds like a bunch of jealous people they can't do end-game, but want the rewards of it. you don't need gold jewelry to do your overland RP gameplay, so why does it even matter? you dont have to do everything, nor shoudl you expect to do everything in the game with no effort.

Emma_Overload · November 2020

Disturbed_One wrote: »

sounds like a bunch of jealous people they can't do end-game, but want the rewards of it. you don't need gold jewelry to do your overland RP gameplay, so why does it even matter? you dont have to do everything, nor shoudl you expect to do everything in the game with no effort.

So if a PvP player wants to gold out the Hunding's Rage rings he crafted himself, he is supposed to pay millions because... what was your point again? What the heck do crafted items have to do with your precious "end-game" elitism?

Dude, nobody is complaining about plating drop rates/prices because they're "jealous". It's a fact that platings are too rare and expensive compared to other tempers, so please stop making up excuses for ZOS to avoid addressing this issue.

Disturbed_One · November 2020

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Disturbed_One wrote: »

sounds like a bunch of jealous people they can't do end-game, but want the rewards of it. you don't need gold jewelry to do your overland RP gameplay, so why does it even matter? you dont have to do everything, nor shoudl you expect to do everything in the game with no effort.

So if a PvP player wants to gold out the Hunding's Rage rings he crafted himself, he is supposed to pay millions because... what was your point again? What the heck do crafted items have to do with your precious "end-game" elitism?

Dude, nobody is complaining about plating drop rates/prices because they're "jealous". It's a fact that platings are too rare and expensive compared to other tempers, so please stop making up excuses for ZOS to avoid addressing this issue.

What is your point? just be glad you can even make crafted jewelry. they (zos) wanted jewelry to be different, they have said it. why do we need one of these threads every freaking week with people whining. they've already made massive changes to the system previously. get over yourself.

(also, not a "dude", but thanks for assuming)

trackdemon5512 · November 2020

redlink1979 wrote: »

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

(...)170 refinings and not enough to create any plantings.

I advise you to refine in smaller batches - my MO: refining batches of 20 (200 raw mats). If the ratio is bad, relog. If even then the ratio is still bad, relog again. Changing instance, by relog, changes your char's rng.

The chance of procuring a gold mat from any refinement is fixed at 5%. I’ve refined millions of mats and 10,000 mats mass refined at once usually nets 45 to 55 gold mats, falling easily along a standard distribution curve.

To the players who feel shafted by the Sticker Book, Perfected Trial Jewelry reconstructs as Gold with no cost. Any other sets are blue which asks that you hold onto the rare stuff. That’s not bad at all.

@Emma_Overload your example with Hundings is poor because 1) there are better options, and 2) you are making the choice to gold out when clearly you can mix and match with other pieces and craft in other traits. Crafted sets are extremely flexible with being made in any weight or trait, not to mention that you don’t have to farm for it. That is counter balanced by the cost of crafting it. If you don’t want to use gold jewelry craft 5 body pieces/weapons and minimize your costs.

As I’ve said before, the jewelry system has been carefully balanced because the pieces are weightless and can be paired with any build without effect on the armor skill lines. Armors are easier to get, cheaper to max out, and have their weight bonuses/restrictions. Jewelry should remain expensive/hard to max to fairly correlate.

preevious · November 2020

Ok, so, many consider my argument "bunk", I can understand that.

But what, then? What will the game give to the competitive players to incite them to keep reaching for the stars?
What could they possibly get that you wouldn't whine about getting too, but effortlessly?

tmbrinks · November 2020

preevious wrote: »

Ok, so, many consider my argument "bunk", I can understand that.

But what, then? What will the game give to the competitive players to incite them to keep reaching for the stars?
What could they possibly get that you wouldn't whine about getting too, but effortlessly?

Definitely not "bunk"

Gilvoth · November 2020

Wing wrote: »

you already made jewelry annoying by including the grains mechanic in the first place, a system whos only inclusion is to simply make the grind longer, period.

compared to EVERY OTHER CRAFT that shares the same improvement path and requirements.

but then when you deconstruct gold jewelry, you don't even get a a chance of getting one of the plating's you put in it back, you get a chance at getting 1/10th of 1 of the plating's back.

i would love for the grains mechanic to just go away, as its nothing but additional grind, but ill settle atm for getting some of my plating's back.

@ZOS_RichLambert

no. i disagree.

if i were to destroy a diamond ring, and tear it down to be able to resale, it would basically need to be rebuilt. this requires alot of materials and work.
Showing the finished re-made ring alongside the original diamond ring. If you are missing diamonds from your original ring ( or if you have broken diamonds) there is a need to service and match and replace any diamonds or materials lost. As a result, once re-made, your ring appears as-new with colour and clarity matched.

Your naked eye isn’t often enough to tell you if you have damaged prongs. Inspecting each prong from different angles at least once should occur to identify problems.

1. Missing Prongs
Occasionally, a prong will break off completely. Other times, your prongs will only break off at the tips. If you find that a prong is missing or broken, a jeweler needs to repair it. Wearing your ring increases the chance that you’ll not only have a broken prong, but a missing diamond.
2. Bent Prongs
You may not believe this, but eventually you will forget about your ring. As you get used to the ring, you become less careful with your hand. Bumps and dings happen, but they can result in bent prongs. Like missing prongs, bent prongs should have you leaving your ring tucked safely inside of its box until you can get to the jeweler.
3. Worn Prongs
You won’t experience worn prongs for quite some time, but expect it to happen as your ring ages. Worn prongs take on a flattened appearance. What has happened, in essence, is that some of the metal of the prong has been worn off. This leaves you with a thinner, weaker prong. Have it repaired as soon as possible.
As soon as you notice damage to one or more prongs, take your ring to the jeweler.
Show the jeweler the ring and ask that it be repaired. Typically, the prong head will be re-tipped. If the damage is severe enough, the jeweler may recommend having the whole head replaced. jeweler’s advice; he knows how to repair rings and reduce the risk of having your diamond come tumbling out.

Before you have any repairs done, contact your insurance agent to see if they will be covered. If damage occurs through no fault of your own, the repairs may very well be covered. If, on the other hand, you have only insured your ring against loss, the repairs will be up to you to pay for.

TLDR:
it costs allot of Gold. and Materials, and Hard Work to rebuild rings and Jewelry!

Starlock · November 2020

Disturbed_One wrote: »

sounds like a bunch of jealous people they can't do end-game, but want the rewards of it. you don't need gold jewelry to do your overland RP gameplay, so why does it even matter? you dont have to do everything, nor shoudl you expect to do everything in the game with no effort.

You realize the problems with the grains system isn't just about gold jewelry, right? I couldn't care less about golding out gear. But I do like to have purple gear, which is trivial to do for everything EXCEPT jewelry. That shouldn't be the case.

Jaimeh · November 2020

I get why jewellery crafting is supposed to be more difficult as it opens up more possibilities for strong build combos, and we thought that after a couple of years the market would be flooded, and prices would fall. Nope, didn't happen. It's a tedious line to max out, it's even more tedious to make platings out of grains, and there's constant demand, so prices are still high. Having at least *a chance* of getting a plating out of decon'ing would be better than the current system.

Disturbed_One · November 2020

Starlock wrote: »

Disturbed_One wrote: »

sounds like a bunch of jealous people they can't do end-game, but want the rewards of it. you don't need gold jewelry to do your overland RP gameplay, so why does it even matter? you dont have to do everything, nor shoudl you expect to do everything in the game with no effort.

You realize the problems with the grains system isn't just about gold jewelry, right? I couldn't care less about golding out gear. But I do like to have purple gear, which is trivial to do for everything EXCEPT jewelry. That shouldn't be the case.

Maybe that's the problem. It's "trivial" (your word) to do the other crafts. perhaps those need buffing

Starlock · November 2020

Disturbed_One wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Disturbed_One wrote: »

sounds like a bunch of jealous people they can't do end-game, but want the rewards of it. you don't need gold jewelry to do your overland RP gameplay, so why does it even matter? you dont have to do everything, nor shoudl you expect to do everything in the game with no effort.

You realize the problems with the grains system isn't just about gold jewelry, right? I couldn't care less about golding out gear. But I do like to have purple gear, which is trivial to do for everything EXCEPT jewelry. That shouldn't be the case.

Maybe that's the problem. It's "trivial" (your word) to do the other crafts. perhaps those need buffing

Depends on the game design philosophy.

To my mind, games are first and foremost a form of entertainment. They are supposed to be fun. And while one's understanding of fun may vary, it's probably not controversial to assert that chores are NOT fun. When systems in games become like chores, that's not fun. There's a good reason why the primary form of bots you often see on consoles are bots targeting blacksmithing/jewelry nodes.

idk · November 2020

The thing is Zos specifically said they did not want Jewelrycrafting crafting to be inline with other crafts. They wanted The ability to upgrade jewelry to require more matts and more time to obtain those matts.

All I am saying is the argument for change needs to have more substance that being the opposite of what Zos said they intended.

Disturbed_One · November 2020

Starlock wrote: »

Disturbed_One wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Disturbed_One wrote: »

sounds like a bunch of jealous people they can't do end-game, but want the rewards of it. you don't need gold jewelry to do your overland RP gameplay, so why does it even matter? you dont have to do everything, nor shoudl you expect to do everything in the game with no effort.

You realize the problems with the grains system isn't just about gold jewelry, right? I couldn't care less about golding out gear. But I do like to have purple gear, which is trivial to do for everything EXCEPT jewelry. That shouldn't be the case.

Maybe that's the problem. It's "trivial" (your word) to do the other crafts. perhaps those need buffing

Depends on the game design philosophy.

To my mind, games are first and foremost a form of entertainment. They are supposed to be fun. And while one's understanding of fun may vary, it's probably not controversial to assert that chores are NOT fun. When systems in games become like chores, that's not fun. There's a good reason why the primary form of bots you often see on consoles are bots targeting blacksmithing/jewelry nodes.

but things that are so easy that they are "trivial" (again, your word) are very rarely "fun"

"trivial" is the games you play with toddlers.

Wing · November 2020

idk wrote: »

The thing is Zos specifically said they did not want Jewelrycrafting crafting to be inline with other crafts. They wanted The ability to upgrade jewelry to require more matts and more time to obtain those matts.

All I am saying is the argument for change needs to have more substance that being the opposite of what Zos said they intended.

i would like them to explain the reason why they feel that way.

"just because" is unacceptable game design.

they have made more radical changes and fixes in the past. (soft caps, adding another 0 to numbers, vet ranks, etc.)

as a reminder, motifs used to be one book, they split it into pages, and TRIED to split those pages into fragments (same thing as plating) it was only after HEAVY pushback that they quit doing that.

the plating system is such a tiny minor system, there is no reason for it to be such a heavy grind. its not like ESO is new and its only keeping players around because of the jewelry grind. . .

Raideen · November 2020

Reduce the cost of upgrading to 1 plating per level.
White Ring + Green plating = Green Ring
Green Ring + Blue Plating = Blue Ring
Blue Ring + Purple Plating = Purple Ring
Purple Ring + Yellow Plating = Yellow Ring
Yellow Ring + Clam Gall = Mythic Ring (joking)

Also 1 Clam Gall = 4 Food (not joking)

Clam Gall is the real Summerset meta.

Starlock · November 2020

Disturbed_One wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Disturbed_One wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Disturbed_One wrote: »

sounds like a bunch of jealous people they can't do end-game, but want the rewards of it. you don't need gold jewelry to do your overland RP gameplay, so why does it even matter? you dont have to do everything, nor shoudl you expect to do everything in the game with no effort.

You realize the problems with the grains system isn't just about gold jewelry, right? I couldn't care less about golding out gear. But I do like to have purple gear, which is trivial to do for everything EXCEPT jewelry. That shouldn't be the case.

Maybe that's the problem. It's "trivial" (your word) to do the other crafts. perhaps those need buffing

Depends on the game design philosophy.

To my mind, games are first and foremost a form of entertainment. They are supposed to be fun. And while one's understanding of fun may vary, it's probably not controversial to assert that chores are NOT fun. When systems in games become like chores, that's not fun. There's a good reason why the primary form of bots you often see on consoles are bots targeting blacksmithing/jewelry nodes.

but things that are so easy that they are "trivial" (again, your word) are very rarely "fun"

"trivial" is the games you play with toddlers.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this. Little about the crafting/ materials system in this game is fun, but for all gear-based crafts EXCEPT jewelry, you can get the materials you need by playing things you DO like about the game to get by (either by breaking down gear for materials or paying reasonable sums of gold to other players for those materials). Even a "toddler" (your word) would understand the problem with this discrepancy.

Disturbed_One · November 2020

Starlock wrote: »

Disturbed_One wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Disturbed_One wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Disturbed_One wrote: »

sounds like a bunch of jealous people they can't do end-game, but want the rewards of it. you don't need gold jewelry to do your overland RP gameplay, so why does it even matter? you dont have to do everything, nor shoudl you expect to do everything in the game with no effort.

You realize the problems with the grains system isn't just about gold jewelry, right? I couldn't care less about golding out gear. But I do like to have purple gear, which is trivial to do for everything EXCEPT jewelry. That shouldn't be the case.

Maybe that's the problem. It's "trivial" (your word) to do the other crafts. perhaps those need buffing

Depends on the game design philosophy.

To my mind, games are first and foremost a form of entertainment. They are supposed to be fun. And while one's understanding of fun may vary, it's probably not controversial to assert that chores are NOT fun. When systems in games become like chores, that's not fun. There's a good reason why the primary form of bots you often see on consoles are bots targeting blacksmithing/jewelry nodes.

but things that are so easy that they are "trivial" (again, your word) are very rarely "fun"

"trivial" is the games you play with toddlers.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this. Little about the crafting/ materials system in this game is fun, but for all gear-based crafts EXCEPT jewelry, you can get the materials you need by playing things you DO like about the game to get by (either by breaking down gear for materials or paying reasonable sums of gold to other players for those materials). Even a "toddler" (your word) would understand the problem with this discrepancy.

Not sure what your point is either. Just because you don't enjoy it, doesn't mean that others don't.

I have ZERO problem obtaining enough materials to upgrade my gear, because I have FUN playing the content that I do. I have NEVER bought a single Chromium Plating to upgrade my gear. But sure, take away what I enjoy doing to make things "trivial" for you. And take away a method I have to make gold so that I can pay for the things in game that require me to do things I don't find FUN.

You want to take away something from me, to make it easier for you. A change which will make it harder for me and force me to do things that I don't enjoy. DO YOU GET THAT? Is that clear enough for you?

Why do you think your definition of "FUN" is the only one that is a valid opinion?

idk · November 2020

Wing wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The thing is Zos specifically said they did not want Jewelrycrafting crafting to be inline with other crafts. They wanted The ability to upgrade jewelry to require more matts and more time to obtain those matts.

All I am saying is the argument for change needs to have more substance that being the opposite of what Zos said they intended.

i would like them to explain the reason why they feel that way.

"just because" is unacceptable game design.

they have made more radical changes and fixes in the past. (soft caps, adding another 0 to numbers, vet ranks, etc.)

as a reminder, motifs used to be one book, they split it into pages, and TRIED to split those pages into fragments (same thing as plating) it was only after HEAVY pushback that they quit doing that.

the plating system is such a tiny minor system, there is no reason for it to be such a heavy grind. its not like ESO is new and its only keeping players around because of the jewelry grind. . .

They did, over two years ago. Maybe try searching for it. I am not going to look for it again and I expect Zos has said as much as they need to.

Sylvermynx · November 2020

The most annoying thing to me is the paucity of blue grains. I'm perfectly happy to do blue jewelry writs - except I can't get iridium grains at a decent rate.

And - especially on PC EU, I am NOT going to pay the outrageous price for them. I've got one 50 at CP125 I'm trying to get to CP 160; and I have another at level 45 who's going to be hitting 50 in New Life. I really want to buy the 600+ jewelry Master Writs on them to level that CP fast (well... I really need the vouchers too) - but while both accounts have gazoolas of green, purple, gold platings, I get 1 blue grain per day - if lucky. AND they cost the earth on the traders.... Obviously cause and effect there *SIGH*.

Raideen · November 2020

Sylvermynx wrote: »

The most annoying thing to me is the paucity of blue grains. I'm perfectly happy to do blue jewelry writs - except I can't get iridium grains at a decent rate.

And - especially on PC EU, I am NOT going to pay the outrageous price for them. I've got one 50 at CP125 I'm trying to get to CP 160; and I have another at level 45 who's going to be hitting 50 in New Life. I really want to buy the 600+ jewelry Master Writs on them to level that CP fast (well... I really need the vouchers too) - but while both accounts have gazoolas of green, purple, gold platings, I get 1 blue grain per day - if lucky. AND they cost the earth on the traders.... Obviously cause and effect there *SIGH*.

Alkir desert dolems and you will be swimming in Iridium grains.