can we get an aoe taunt?
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭holden_caulfield wrote: »holden_caulfield wrote: »1. All group content in ESO has been tanked successfully a great many times without an AoE taunt. This is because the game was designed not to need one. For players new to tanking in ESO it is better they learn to tank correctly in ESO than to rely on a crutch and not learn to tank properly.
2. Outside of recent tests in Cyrdodiil, ESO is built on not having a cooldown on skills. The game is build on resource management.
In most MMORPGs, a tanks job is to tank the priority targets, not everything. Those are targets that are the most threatening. ESO is no different.
Non exactly true. Many mmorpg have aoe taunts. Where they don't other party members organize themselves for CC routines. In ESO: it is just a mess. I think it appeals to players who sucked at organized gameplay.
Even mechs are uninspired: some avoidance, some adds, some interrupt. If u wanna see a nice action based mmorpg that have really nice boss fight mechs look at tera.
In ESO even theorycrafting is a joke: someone with some credibility say something, and everybody copy him.
But I like it. Because vanilla WOW or Rift progression guilds were a fulltime job. But here I can relax
Everything I have said is completely accurate. First off I never suggested other MMORPGs do not have AoE taunts so suggesting otherwise is a clear fabrication. I have been tanking in MMORPGs for a long time so I know other have AoE taunts.
Second, it is a very solid fact that a tank's priority is always on the strongest targets in the group. That is just plain common sense for tanking.
Third, every player in ESO is given the tools to deal with a little agro from less threatening mobs. Granted, some players do not know how to use those basic tools but that is a different problem altogether and why most decent players avoid using the GF. Also, Zos actually intended that players other than a tank will get agro on trash mobs, especially when the second wave activates.
So it does not seem the issue is with theorycrafting.
Ok, you never played other mmorpgs, I guess.
Most pull in Wow or RIft were based on taunts and cc. Anyone that were not a tank would have been 1 shotted. And dont forget that in all trinity based mmorpg, only the healer had heals.
You said : "In most MMORPGs, a tanks job is to tank the priority targets, not everything"
that's simply not true in all trinity mmorpg
It is very accurate. You have only mentioned two games which does not disprove my statement at all. While I have only played one of the two, it was not extensively because I found WoW to simplistic and did not like the storytelling. I am also not saying the tank should not try to tank more but pointing out they have priorities and that comes first.
As someone who has played several MMORPGs before ESO I have found experienced groups have the priority of tank prioritizes larger targets while DPS prioritizes the weaker ones. I realize lesser experienced groups do not do this which is fine for them. Ofc, in ESO we can often group them all together and AoE them down. That is not always the case with all tanking classes in other MMORPGs as not every class has access to a pull making it more challenging to group NPCs without doing a LoS pull.
I like the attempt to disparage me as the first major point made by suggesting I have never played other MMORPGs. I prefer to stick to discussing the subject than attacking the messenger.Edited by idk on October 28, 2020 1:24AM1 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭.kathandira wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
I feel it is more important for a player to actually learn to tank instead of dealing with a crutch which is all an AoE taunt in ESO is as we clearly do not actually need it by any means.
Thing is, if Zos added an actual AoE taunt then we would have tanks that never actually learned to tank well because they went EZ mode. If they ever wanted to get serious about tanking and get into challenging trials they would quickly find they need to quickly learn to hold groups of NPCs by only using the single-target tanks or get kicked from the raid group for being a bad tank. All because they did not develop the actual player skill.
Mmm, the good ol' crutch argument.
I tell the same thing to my little cousins about riding a bicycle for the first time. No, you don't get training wheels to learn the basics of riding a bike because "if you ever wanted to get serious about [cycling on a team you'll get kicked from the team for being a bad cyclist]"... all because they did not develop the actual skill of riding a bike without training wheels.
Or... I dunno... maybe, the wheels could eventually come off? Just a thought.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: ».kathandira wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
I feel it is more important for a player to actually learn to tank instead of dealing with a crutch which is all an AoE taunt in ESO is as we clearly do not actually need it by any means.
Thing is, if Zos added an actual AoE taunt then we would have tanks that never actually learned to tank well because they went EZ mode. If they ever wanted to get serious about tanking and get into challenging trials they would quickly find they need to quickly learn to hold groups of NPCs by only using the single-target tanks or get kicked from the raid group for being a bad tank. All because they did not develop the actual player skill.
Mmm, the good ol' crutch argument.
I tell the same thing to my little cousins about riding a bicycle for the first time. No, you don't get training wheels to learn the basics of riding a bike because "if you ever wanted to get serious about [cycling on a team you'll get kicked from the team for being a bad cyclist]"... all because they did not develop the actual skill of riding a bike without training wheels.
Or... I dunno... maybe, the wheels could eventually come off? Just a thought.
I mean that's fine, just tell your cousin to spend some skill points on the soul magic passives. No matter how bad the bike ride, he'll be able to recover from the worst of it once an hour without even needing a soul gem.
Or, maybe, the "training wheels," are playing non-DLC dungeons on normal, as you're leveling.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.starkerealm wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: ».kathandira wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
I feel it is more important for a player to actually learn to tank instead of dealing with a crutch which is all an AoE taunt in ESO is as we clearly do not actually need it by any means.
Thing is, if Zos added an actual AoE taunt then we would have tanks that never actually learned to tank well because they went EZ mode. If they ever wanted to get serious about tanking and get into challenging trials they would quickly find they need to quickly learn to hold groups of NPCs by only using the single-target tanks or get kicked from the raid group for being a bad tank. All because they did not develop the actual player skill.
Mmm, the good ol' crutch argument.
I tell the same thing to my little cousins about riding a bicycle for the first time. No, you don't get training wheels to learn the basics of riding a bike because "if you ever wanted to get serious about [cycling on a team you'll get kicked from the team for being a bad cyclist]"... all because they did not develop the actual skill of riding a bike without training wheels.
Or... I dunno... maybe, the wheels could eventually come off? Just a thought.
I mean that's fine, just tell your cousin to spend some skill points on the soul magic passives. No matter how bad the bike ride, he'll be able to recover from the worst of it once an hour without even needing a soul gem.
Or, maybe, the "training wheels," are playing non-DLC dungeons on normal, as you're leveling.
You provide a good point that the non-DLC and especially normal dungeons are the ideal places for a player to learn how to tank. It is even better if the run with people they know as friends are more understanding of a tank learning the skill required for their role.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Paramedicus wrote: »
which class have this cool skill leeching plate?kathandira wrote: »Auto Healing - There are a few, but off top of my head, Leeching Plate.
If u cant wear SoB then it is wasted 4 of 5 times.kathandira wrote: »Pending on your build, it really isn't a waste at all.
Blocking to activate is actually doing two things at once, rather than only 1, so it is more beneficial than not using it in this case. And it's range is just as long as Silver Leash.
I never used it in pve but it sounds like lotta perm blocking just to pull some trash (if it decides to actually hit you instead of teammate). Sounds bit unreliable or source consuming (u always need to taunt and keep block to pull). Idk, not that silver leash is great.
It's an armor set that drops in Imperial City Prison (Leeching Plate). It does have pretty powerful healing, especially if you have a lot of mobs on you.Edited by Jeremy on October 29, 2020 6:08AM0 -
Ysbriel✭✭✭✭✭After ready through all the rebuttals to this idea i can safely say, add a AoE Taunt, give it a cooldown so its not a spammable.2 -
Xuhora✭✭✭✭✭the only way they could implement a cooldown on a active skill is to make said skill an ulitmate.
at first i was like; no ESO does not need an AoE taunt, because reasons other people have given in this thread allready (target prio, AoE CC and so on)
but i can see how tanking is hard to learn for beginners, and by now i am thinking about the "oh snap" button as a training wheel.
Implementing an Ultimate that is an AoE taunt (SnB skillline i guess?) could give newcommer Tanks that desired safetynet while learning which targets they need to prio and which they can CC. furthermore it does not lead to a bad habbit in just standing there, aoe taunting every third skill and be happy about the "awesome" "tanking" they are doing.
I could see that as a compromise tbh.0 -
Minyassa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It would be really nice. Some of us with wonky hands/wrists that cannot target and click around fast would still like to be able to play tanks and help keep our group alive without having to go soak in ice water afterward! xD1 -
EvilAutoTech✭✭✭✭✭
✭the only way they could implement a cooldown on a active skill is to make said skill an ulitmate.
at first i was like; no ESO does not need an AoE taunt, because reasons other people have given in this thread allready (target prio, AoE CC and so on)
but i can see how tanking is hard to learn for beginners, and by now i am thinking about the "oh snap" button as a training wheel.
Implementing an Ultimate that is an AoE taunt (SnB skillline i guess?) could give newcommer Tanks that desired safetynet while learning which targets they need to prio and which they can CC. furthermore it does not lead to a bad habbit in just standing there, aoe taunting every third skill and be happy about the "awesome" "tanking" they are doing.
I could see that as a compromise tbh.
When I read your post, I thought the only way to make it an ultimate, would be to put it in the Undaunted skill line. My next thought was that by the time you reach Undaunted 10, you shouldn't be a beginner tank.
Having it in the 1 hand and shield line would mean getting that skill to 50 before it becomes available and you should probably learn to tank before you get there.
I personally don't see a need for an aoe taunt and think the only way for it to happen would be through spell crafting. Like that's gonna be a thing.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@starkerealm but aren’t AoE cooldowns comming soon? or was that idea canned?
Zos never said they were going to implement AoE cooldowns. They are collecting information. Last time Zos tested something on live in Cyrodiil they did not implement the change.
Also, as far as we know this seems to only be dealing with Cyrodiil, maybe PvP in general. Regardless, Starkerealm's comment is completely accurate.
Further, even if there was a cooldown on an AoE taunt the players that would need it because they have not learned how to tank would still run into the same problem because they are challenged targeting NPCs individually. The real solution is learning how to tank.0 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »hexentb16_ESO wrote: »Tormentor enables this with the use of some abilities. Problem is that not enough classes have a direct damage based aoe.
(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 4% Healing Taken
(4 items) Adds 4% Healing Taken
(5 items) When you deal direct damage with a Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you gain 3642 Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance and taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds.
https://eso-sets.com/set/tormentor
Its not about the AoE, it's about the Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability--you're right that not all classes have one of these, but there are out of class options (weapon and guild for example) and sub-class options (werewolf).
However, what makes this viable as AoE Taunt is when the ability used to proc it has splash damage or an AoE component, like explosive charge , dragon leap, brutal pounce, etc
Tormentor would be a fun set to play with...if the 3 and 4 piece weren't such garbage. If 3 and 4 were max stam and max magicka respectively I would definitely farm it. As a tank, the very LAST thing I need is healing received...even if I am getting no heals from the healer I am perfectly able to outheal any incoming damage. To make a real difference in healing received you would have to have 4 bonuses...below that...you just double cast(or cast 2 different heals) instead if you get that low on health.
No, no, you're thinking of health recovery. Health recovery is hot garbage. Healing taken isn't exciting, but it does help you stay in the fight.
No it really doesnt. lets say its gold and 3 and 4 give you 6% healing taken instead of 4%...together, that is a whopping 12% healing taken...that means if you get healed for 10000 normally...you get healed for 11200 instead.....really? Ok, double that to big heals and instead of 20,000 you are getting 22400 instead...2400 health is not going to make a difference 99% of the time...and 1200 health is not going to make a difference 99.999999% of the time as a tank. I can count on one hand in 6 YEARS of playing that I went under 1200 health and still survived...maybe a couple dozen times where I went under 2400 health....but that would apply to max health....healing received is even more worthless, since it happens AFTER you have taken damage...it doesn't prevent anything, it doesn't mitigate anything, in the case of an extra 12%, what that really means is that it saves you(or healer) a cast of a healing spell every 8 casts...whereas if you had 2 max magicka buffs in its place, you could just cast regeneration(or similarly priced heal) instead and outheal it by a LARGE margin.
This is the exact same reason healers and tanks don't run Sanctuary as a set...because its a useless reactive set that only marginally helps afterward...far better to double cast.It would be really nice. Some of us with wonky hands/wrists that cannot target and click around fast would still like to be able to play tanks and help keep our group alive without having to go soak in ice water afterward! xD
Just taunt the priority targets....there are plenty of new tanks out there who can't handle the aggro an entire mob without a lot of healer support anyway.
Here is the fact...most ads in the game aren't dangerous...as a tank, you cast an AOE damage ability(caltrops, wall of elements, whatever) to aggro the mob on you...at this point, you can either root them if you don't feel the snare applied is good enough, or you prioritize the dangerous ads, gargoyles, 2 hander guys, whatever it happens to be and taunt them. by the time you have done that your DPS should have the mob half dead and you turn your attention to ranged targets and drag them in(this ALSO applies to non-ranged targets that may or may not be heading toward your group members). Then you apply a root and the mob is dead unless DPS is low...in which case you re-taunt any dangerous mobs left alive. it does not take high APM to do all this...it just takes situational awareness, which is the number one skill you need to develop as a tank. An AOE taunt would stifle the development of situational awareness as well. Like I said....if you had to implement an AOE taunt, put it on a monster set proc that triggers when you taunt an enemy. That way, tanks that want it can have access to it, but experienced tanks that dont need it can run more useful monster sets and groups aren't going to expect ALL tanks to have it and demand they slot it because it exists.Edited by josiahva on October 29, 2020 2:08PM1 -
Itzmichi✭✭✭✭✭I don't know why people even want one tbh. Another slot wasted for something that is already thrice in the game without the AoE effect.
Would be all for it if they were to overhaul all the PvE Trial and Dungeon content and add additional adds so that this feature would actually make sense in a way.Here, have a chill pill 💊!0 -
Paramedicus✭✭✭✭
/s off
It's an armor set that drops in Imperial City Prison (Leeching Plate). It does have pretty powerful healing, especially if you have a lot of mobs on you.Paramedicus wrote: »
which class have this cool skill leeching plate?kathandira wrote: »Auto Healing - There are a few, but off top of my head, Leeching Plate.
you u need to fulfill two major conditions: 1) u 'waste' 5 pcs 2) u need lotta mobs
even tormentor doesnt give u taunt for free: 1) u 'waste' 5 pcs 2) u need to use specific skill
so i think it is fair trade: it makes newbie tank's life easier, but it comes at cost
adding aoe taunt skill is against that philosophy
Edited by Paramedicus on October 29, 2020 4:58PM0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@starkerealm but aren’t AoE cooldowns comming soon? or was that idea canned?
Zos never said they were going to implement AoE cooldowns. They are collecting information. Last time Zos tested something on live in Cyrodiil they did not implement the change.
Also, as far as we know this seems to only be dealing with Cyrodiil, maybe PvP in general. Regardless, Starkerealm's comment is completely accurate.
Further, even if there was a cooldown on an AoE taunt the players that would need it because they have not learned how to tank would still run into the same problem because they are challenged targeting NPCs individually. The real solution is learning how to tank.
Additionally, a cooldown on a taunt would be more meaningless than not, given the duration associated with taunts to begin with.
Either the cooldown duration would be over 15s, making the taunt worthless, or it would be 15s or less making the cooldown meaningless.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Paramedicus wrote: »
/s off
It's an armor set that drops in Imperial City Prison (Leeching Plate). It does have pretty powerful healing, especially if you have a lot of mobs on you.Paramedicus wrote: »
which class have this cool skill leeching plate?kathandira wrote: »Auto Healing - There are a few, but off top of my head, Leeching Plate.
you u need to fulfill two major conditions: 1) u 'waste' 5 pcs 2) u need lotta mobs
even tormentor doesnt give u taunt for free: 1) u 'waste' 5 pcs 2) u need to use specific skill
so i think it is fair trade: it makes newbie tank's life easier, but it comes at cost
adding aoe taunt skill is against that philosophy
I didn't know you were being sarcastic in that post. haha
I just saw a post asking what class has this cool skill leeching plate while reading through the thread and noticed no one answered you. So if you were just joking ignore my post. I wasn't trying to make an argument either for or against using it.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »hexentb16_ESO wrote: »Tormentor enables this with the use of some abilities. Problem is that not enough classes have a direct damage based aoe.
(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 4% Healing Taken
(4 items) Adds 4% Healing Taken
(5 items) When you deal direct damage with a Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you gain 3642 Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance and taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds.
https://eso-sets.com/set/tormentor
Its not about the AoE, it's about the Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability--you're right that not all classes have one of these, but there are out of class options (weapon and guild for example) and sub-class options (werewolf).
However, what makes this viable as AoE Taunt is when the ability used to proc it has splash damage or an AoE component, like explosive charge , dragon leap, brutal pounce, etc
Tormentor would be a fun set to play with...if the 3 and 4 piece weren't such garbage. If 3 and 4 were max stam and max magicka respectively I would definitely farm it. As a tank, the very LAST thing I need is healing received...even if I am getting no heals from the healer I am perfectly able to outheal any incoming damage. To make a real difference in healing received you would have to have 4 bonuses...below that...you just double cast(or cast 2 different heals) instead if you get that low on health.
No, no, you're thinking of health recovery. Health recovery is hot garbage. Healing taken isn't exciting, but it does help you stay in the fight.
No it really doesnt. lets say its gold and 3 and 4 give you 6% healing taken instead of 4%...
That's not how the healing received bonus works on sets.together, that is a whopping 12% healing taken...
4 + 4 == 8
4 + 4 != 12that means if you get healed for 10000 normally...you get healed for 11200 instead.....really?
No, not really. So, it's hard to sit down and crunch the numbers on a whim, but it's worth remembering that you'll probably have a healing taken bonus from your champion points, from every piece of heavy armor, possibly from other sources in your own build, and your healer will have a healing done bonus. All of these apply.
Best of all, because you can't fully scrutinize your healer's setup, you have no idea how much extra healing they're applying.Ok, double that to big heals and instead of 20,000 you are getting 22400 instead...2400 health is not going to make a difference 99% of the time...and 1200 health is not going to make a difference 99.999999% of the time as a tank. I can count on one hand in 6 YEARS of playing that I went under 1200 health and still survived...maybe a couple dozen times where I went under 2400 health....but that would apply to max health....healing received is even more worthless, since it happens AFTER you have taken damage...it doesn't prevent anything, it doesn't mitigate anything, in the case of an extra 12%, what that really means is that it saves you(or healer) a cast of a healing spell every 8 casts...whereas if you had 2 max magicka buffs in its place, you could just cast regeneration(or similarly priced heal) instead and outheal it by a LARGE margin.
What's legitimately kinda funny about all of this is the failure to understand something very simple. Healing done and healing received bonuses apply to every tick of healing.
You're talking about how, "well, just throw down regeneration or something," but healing received applies to that. You're focusing on the idea of a single hit tagging you into the red line, where that set bonus alone saved you, but because it applies to all healing, it has the cumulative effect of keeping you out of that state, and never seeing it.
It's also amusing that you're focusing in on the idea that it's only letting you soak off 2400 health on a solid hit, but the irony here is, that's very close to two max health set bonuses. Your entire paragraph could, quite literally, be rewritten to argue that max health bonuses are garbage because you've had limited experience soaking hits that take you under 2k health and surviving.
So, no, healing received is not an exciting buff, it is, however, actually helpful, as it improves the performance of heals on the wearer. It helps mitigate chip damage, and (in rare cases) it can help you quickly recover from eating a serious hit you shouldn't have taken in the first place. It makes your self heals more effective, and reduces your burden on the healer, even if it only does so a little. Which, ironically, that's all set bonus buffs. A single set bonus is never going to be a huge jump.This is the exact same reason healers and tanks don't run Sanctuary as a set...because its a useless reactive set that only marginally helps afterward...far better to double cast.
So, let's start with the second half. If your healer is spamming breath of life or something similar... yeah, no, that's not going to be a good run.
Second, nobody runs Sanctuary because it's only got a 10m range. Your healer has better things to run, and you don't want your DPS and healers crowding the tank like that (in most circumstances.) You might be able to make an argument for it in some weird niche situations, like burn phase on The Mage, but 99 times out of 100, there would be a better build option available. It's not that the bonus itself is bad, but the bonus isn't good enough to justify the steps needed to get it, and the opportunity cost of a 5pc set is severe.Edited by starkerealm on October 29, 2020 7:21PM2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@starkerealm but aren’t AoE cooldowns comming soon? or was that idea canned?
They've been doing some testing in Cyrodiil to try to identify the most significant source of lag. To that end, yeah, they implemented a cooldown on AoE abilities to see what effect it had on server performance. I haven't been participating in those tests, but from what I've heard, that experiment was a dud, with lag remaining as bad as usual if not worse.
So, it's not that the idea was canned, or that this was coming in the future, per se. It was an experiment, they've collected the data, and moved on to testing other things.
While, I get that it's frustrating for the players in PvP, I'm glad that ZOS is finally taking the Cyrodiil issue seriously enough that they're using the place as a lab to collect data and try to identify the problem.1 -
madman65✭✭✭✭✭It`s not a taunt but it is close.
Void Bash 2 items: When you deal damage with Power Bash, you apply Call of the Void to yourself for 2 seconds. Enemies within 12 meters are immediately pulled to you. After Call of the Void ends, you apply Major Maim to enemies in the area for 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 13 seconds.
1-Hand & Shield - Axe, Mace, Sword, Dagger, Shield
Perfected Void Bash
2 items: Adds 965 Maximum Health
2 items: When you deal damage with Power Bash, you apply Call of the Void to yourself for 2 seconds. Enemies within 12 meters are immediately pulled to you. After Call of the Void ends, you apply Major Maim to enemies in the area for 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 13 seconds.
1-Hand & Shield - Axe, Mace, Sword,
Hope this helps, it`s part of the new arena from Markarth DLC.Edited by madman65 on October 30, 2020 9:31PM1