If Crimson is considered a balanced set

WreckfulAbandon · October 2020

Then at the very least the cooldown should be increased to 12 or 15 seconds. It's strong enough with Malacath to be part of a burst combo, AoE, with a (strong!) healing component, so it needs to be adjusted numbers wise or cooldown wise. Please don't let this toxic set go unnerfed for another patch cycle.

Firstmep · October 2020

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Then at the very least the cooldown should be increased to 12 or 15 seconds. It's strong enough with Malacath to be part of a burst combo, AoE, with a (strong!) healing component, so it needs to be adjusted numbers wise or cooldown wise. Please don't let this toxic set go unnerfed for another patch cycle.

It does have counterplay, you can simply move out of it, you have 2 seconds for it.

DTStormfox · October 2020

I agree. It is too powerful.
IMO item sets should have unique bonuses, meaning: either heal, damage or utility but never a combination of two or three of those.

wheem_ESO · October 2020

Firstmep wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Then at the very least the cooldown should be increased to 12 or 15 seconds. It's strong enough with Malacath to be part of a burst combo, AoE, with a (strong!) healing component, so it needs to be adjusted numbers wise or cooldown wise. Please don't let this toxic set go unnerfed for another patch cycle.

It does have counterplay, you can simply move out of it, you have 2 seconds for it.

I'm sure that works great in duels and such, at least for certain class/build matchups, but "simply move out of it" is much less applicable in BGs and group fights. Especially those where Bombard spam is a very real thing.

Waffennacht · October 2020

As a BG player Ill just shake my head at anyone that brings a build not able to move out of an AoE within 1 sec.

Sellitrix, Selene, Velidreth, Crimson, Nierenth, etc means you better be moving from spot to spot within 1 sec

RaT is available to everyone, you should be sporting essentially 100% uptime on root immunity.

If your build isn't sporting mobility or cant tank through things like this; its a poor BG build

Goregrinder · October 2020

Waffennacht wrote: »

As a BG player Ill just shake my head at anyone that brings a build not able to move out of an AoE within 1 sec.

Sellitrix, Selene, Velidreth, Crimson, Nierenth, etc means you better be moving from spot to spot within 1 sec

RaT is available to everyone, you should be sporting essentially 100% uptime on root immunity.

If your build isn't sporting mobility or cant tank through things like this; its a poor BG build

Yup you can't really walk into a BG with a build and expect it to do well against every other build. You're always going to run into a build or a group organizing enough to counter whatever your build your running. But CC, Snares, Disruptions, etc is the name of the game for PVP, so if you walk into a BG not expecting to deal with any of that, then you're going to have a tough time when you have a team throwing CC and snares at you.

WreckfulAbandon · October 2020

If they want to remove or reduce the heal I'm fine with it going off as an AoE every 8 seconds. It's the healing component that makes it so strong especially after they heavily nerfed heals and defensive sets and are about to nerf them some more in Markarth.

It's getting hard to theorycraft any new builds using Malacath without slapping this set on since it ticks so many boxes. I don't care that it can be avoided by moving away since it still works (and heals) when hitting NPC's and other players.

Swomp23 · October 2020

Firstmep wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Then at the very least the cooldown should be increased to 12 or 15 seconds. It's strong enough with Malacath to be part of a burst combo, AoE, with a (strong!) healing component, so it needs to be adjusted numbers wise or cooldown wise. Please don't let this toxic set go unnerfed for another patch cycle.

It does have counterplay, you can simply move out of it, you have 2 seconds for it.

Yeah, your opponent will be very sad that you stopped bursting him for 2 whole seconds. Great counterplay!

Grimlok_S · October 2020

Kinda funny watching dedicated ball-tanks in Chaosball run into the enemy teams rather than away from them when wearing this set. Pretty effective from what I've seen so far.

I haven't found it to be an issue to just side step in a 1v1, but I can understand it being frustrating if you're trying to Xv1 and your allies just stand in it lol.

Firstmep · October 2020

Swomp23 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Then at the very least the cooldown should be increased to 12 or 15 seconds. It's strong enough with Malacath to be part of a burst combo, AoE, with a (strong!) healing component, so it needs to be adjusted numbers wise or cooldown wise. Please don't let this toxic set go unnerfed for another patch cycle.

It does have counterplay, you can simply move out of it, you have 2 seconds for it.

Yeah, your opponent will be very sad that you stopped bursting him for 2 whole seconds. Great counterplay!

The heal is barely noticeable if you only hit 1 player with it.
I see a lot of ppl use this set go Yolo thinking it will carry them and the second the proc is over, they get folded like a napkin.
It's a strong set, but there is ample counterplay to it, unlike max range poison inject into double procs where if you don't have a purge your kinda f-d.
Also running crimsom means you need to be in the thick of things to take full advantage of the proc so you have to be tanky enough to survive outside the proc too.
Okay 1 thing I'd change about the set is so that healing modifiers don't apply to the heal, since it already Ignores battle spirit.
Kinda funny when my stamDK with corrosive and mending up hits someone for5k and I get a 7k heal from it. But that's a pretty edge case tbh.

erio · October 2020

Firstmep wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Then at the very least the cooldown should be increased to 12 or 15 seconds. It's strong enough with Malacath to be part of a burst combo, AoE, with a (strong!) healing component, so it needs to be adjusted numbers wise or cooldown wise. Please don't let this toxic set go unnerfed for another patch cycle.

It does have counterplay, you can simply move out of it, you have 2 seconds for it.

wow crazy how they can also move you into it by walking towards you

mikey_reach · October 2020

Firstmep wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Then at the very least the cooldown should be increased to 12 or 15 seconds. It's strong enough with Malacath to be part of a burst combo, AoE, with a (strong!) healing component, so it needs to be adjusted numbers wise or cooldown wise. Please don't let this toxic set go unnerfed for another patch cycle.

It does have counterplay, you can simply move out of it, you have 2 seconds for it.

Its not about telling a player they have 2 secs to dodge it that is the obvious its that the set is too good at what it does the heal and damage are nice specially when outnumbered if you add malacath it gets better and sometimes you will find that when you try to burst your opponent and he has crimson you either dodge it and stop your burst or you go with your burst and he gets the heal while also keeping in mind if you are cc immune or not because if they are good at stunning you and have their build figured out you will notice how slow a fight can get when the enemy with crimson is stunning you like he should withing his rotations. People love it because it can easily be used as an outnumbered carry set. Of course many other sets can be used like that too but how many as good as that one?

Dunning_Kruger · October 2020

Firstmep wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Then at the very least the cooldown should be increased to 12 or 15 seconds. It's strong enough with Malacath to be part of a burst combo, AoE, with a (strong!) healing component, so it needs to be adjusted numbers wise or cooldown wise. Please don't let this toxic set go unnerfed for another patch cycle.

It does have counterplay, you can simply move out of it, you have 2 seconds for it.

Unless your enemy has their W key bound. Akatosh*.

Waffennacht · October 2020

I dont see how anyone thinks that a melee non 'Proc health tank' is even viable in this meta.

I run one melee build but it has +70% movement speed because you just cant stay still; ever

olsborg · October 2020

Proccsets should not be buffed by Malacath!

Goregrinder · October 2020

The fact that you can avoid it, especially if you're running a ranged build seems balanced to me. Boss mechanics are balanced, just don't stand in fire and you won't die.

Hexquisite · October 2020

I find both Crimson and Harbinger to be annoying in BGs if you play the objectives and it is not a Deathmatch.

wheem_ESO · October 2020

Everyone needs to recognize that there's on-paper theory, and then there's actual in-game practicality. If this set's proc were really such a trivial thing that any class could easily avoid without issue in group fights, I doubt we'd see as many people using it. I'd like to see just how successfully the set's defenders would be able to avoid it when they're on a non-Sorc Magicka build mixed up in a team fight, where 1 or more Stam builds wearing this set are focusing them. Are you really going to be popping RAT and sprinting every few seconds, while still being able to contribute to the fight and survive the other damage that you're eating?

I don't necessarily think that this is the most egregious proc set out there right now, but it's definitely a bit much.

PS
While I've been mostly referring to team fights, this set can be an issue in 1v1 in at least some circumstances as well. Do you really think a Magicka Necromancer is going to effectively "move out of the proc" against say...a Stamina Warden? You might be able to avoid it occasionally if you can land an unblocked/non-immune Flame Clench at the right time. But for the most part, the Warden is going to be able to stay on top of you at will, and will almost certainly never be pressured enough to have to back off on his own (which the proc set will also help with).

Waffennacht · October 2020

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Everyone needs to recognize that there's on-paper theory, and then there's actual in-game practicality. If this set's proc were really such a trivial thing that any class could easily avoid without issue in group fights, I doubt we'd see as many people using it. I'd like to see just how successfully the set's defenders would be able to avoid it when they're on a non-Sorc Magicka build mixed up in a team fight, where 1 or more Stam builds wearing this set are focusing them. Are you really going to be popping RAT and sprinting every few seconds, while still being able to contribute to the fight and survive the other damage that you're eating?

I don't necessarily think that this is the most egregious proc set out there right now, but it's definitely a bit much.

PS
While I've been mostly referring to team fights, this set can be an issue in 1v1 in at least some circumstances as well. Do you really think a Magicka Necromancer is going to effectively "move out of the proc" against say...a Stamina Warden? You might be able to avoid it occasionally if you can land an unblocked/non-immune Flame Clench at the right time. But for the most part, the Warden is going to be able to stay on top of you at will, and will almost certainly never be pressured enough to have to back off on his own (which the proc set will also help with).

70% speed without sprint. With sprint I max out; so yeah I move outta it

TimeDazzler · October 2020

Do I think crimson is a balanced set? No... but, I do think there are far worse proc sets right now than crimson that need to be nerfed far worse. This, I think crimson kind of goes under the radar. I’m pretty certain that when some of these meta abusing proc sets like hunter venom, unleash terror, sheer venom, syvarra scales get nerfed everyone will just switch to crimson until that eventually gets nerfed too. Also, as for everyone saying just walk out of it that doesn’t really make sense. If I hit you with a DB + sub assault combo and drop your health to 40 and crimson procs, what am I just supposed to walk away for two seconds not executing you and letting you heal? I know it’s easy to proc but it’s basically ok you either leave me alone for 2 seconds or give me a bunch of healing, both of which are very strong defensive options.

Xiomaro · October 2020

In BGs (and I'm sure other areas too) the reason Crimson Twilight is so popular is because of how set-and-forget the proc condition is. [Edit to clarify] And of course the fact it does damage and heals

On PC EU, people are running Crimson Twilight backbar, Syvarra's Scales frontbar, Malacath plus whatever monster you like. And it works on every class except maybe Sorc/Nightblade. Why? Well, obviously there are a lot of over tuned procs, but these two in particular have non-existent proc conditions. You can run all the skills you normally would and fight exactly as you normally would but the procs are still there to add value for you.

I'm by no means saying Unleashed, Sheer Venom or Venomous Smite are fine and balanced, but they all require sacrifices in your build. Unleashed requires you to run a gap closer, Sheer Venom works best with Poison Inject which is a pretty meh skill on its own, and Venomous Smite means no Malacath. All of those sets are also medium so that means, while you might be putting out obnoxious and overtuned damage, you'll also die to a strong gust of wind.

Syvarra and Crimson both work with Malacath, they require no sub-optimal skills to be slotted and they're available in heavy (Syvarra actually comes in all weights).

All the procs I've mentioned need to be tuned down - no doubt about that. I'm just explaining why Syvarra/Crimson are pretty much the apex sets.

katorga · October 2020

2K dps seems to be the metric ZOS is using for proc sets. They appear scale it down as you add secondary effects. That makes Crimson twice as powerful as similar sets like Leeching Plate, Baraha's Curse that do aoe damage and heal you for the damage done. Those sets do ~1K dps.

As for Syvarra being an Apex Set...it is instant and applied directly to the target. Those two conditions are what it makes to superior to something like Pillar of Nirn which does twice much damage but is hobbled a 1s delay and ground-based aoe application. I love it, the set is funding my new found obsession with learning every style motif in the game.

MurderMostFoul · October 2020

Waffennacht wrote: »

I dont see how anyone thinks that a melee non 'Proc health tank' is even viable in this meta.

I run one melee build but it has +70% movement speed because you just cant stay still; ever

Lol, I still run all 6 stam classes with melee, stat-based builds in BGs. Apart from my warden (cheese sample platter), I refuse to adopt the proc set meta. But that said, it's all about mobility. (Major Expo, RotWH, Shuffle w/6 med)

West93 · October 2020

Defending procsets so disgusting.

Firstmep · October 2020

katorga wrote: »

2K dps seems to be the metric ZOS is using for proc sets. They appear scale it down as you add secondary effects. That makes Crimson twice as powerful as similar sets like Leeching Plate, Baraha's Curse that do aoe damage and heal you for the damage done. Those sets do ~1K dps.

As for Syvarra being an Apex Set...it is instant and applied directly to the target. Those two conditions are what it makes to superior to something like Pillar of Nirn which does twice much damage but is hobbled a 1s delay and ground-based aoe application. I love it, the set is funding my new found obsession with learning every style motif in the game.

Wait where did you get that number from? Crimson does (at base) 8.2k damage every 8 seconds.

Thats about 1k dps.

Seems fine to me XD.

Goregrinder · October 2020

Cries wrote: »

Do I think crimson is a balanced set? No... but, I do think there are far worse proc sets right now than crimson that need to be nerfed far worse. This, I think crimson kind of goes under the radar. I’m pretty certain that when some of these meta abusing proc sets like hunter venom, unleash terror, sheer venom, syvarra scales get nerfed everyone will just switch to crimson until that eventually gets nerfed too. Also, as for everyone saying just walk out of it that doesn’t really make sense. If I hit you with a DB + sub assault combo and drop your health to 40 and crimson procs, what am I just supposed to walk away for two seconds not executing you and letting you heal? I know it’s easy to proc but it’s basically ok you either leave me alone for 2 seconds or give me a bunch of healing, both of which are very strong defensive options.

Da-da-da-dogeroll. Ba-ba-ba-block.

Zeromaz · October 2020

Goregrinder wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Do I think crimson is a balanced set? No... but, I do think there are far worse proc sets right now than crimson that need to be nerfed far worse. This, I think crimson kind of goes under the radar. I’m pretty certain that when some of these meta abusing proc sets like hunter venom, unleash terror, sheer venom, syvarra scales get nerfed everyone will just switch to crimson until that eventually gets nerfed too. Also, as for everyone saying just walk out of it that doesn’t really make sense. If I hit you with a DB + sub assault combo and drop your health to 40 and crimson procs, what am I just supposed to walk away for two seconds not executing you and letting you heal? I know it’s easy to proc but it’s basically ok you either leave me alone for 2 seconds or give me a bunch of healing, both of which are very strong defensive options.

Da-da-da-dogeroll. Ba-ba-ba-block.

Damn.... nailed it

Solariken · October 2020

Firstmep wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

2K dps seems to be the metric ZOS is using for proc sets. They appear scale it down as you add secondary effects. That makes Crimson twice as powerful as similar sets like Leeching Plate, Baraha's Curse that do aoe damage and heal you for the damage done. Those sets do ~1K dps.

As for Syvarra being an Apex Set...it is instant and applied directly to the target. Those two conditions are what it makes to superior to something like Pillar of Nirn which does twice much damage but is hobbled a 1s delay and ground-based aoe application. I love it, the set is funding my new found obsession with learning every style motif in the game.

Wait where did you get that number from? Crimson does (at base) 8.2k damage every 8 seconds.

Thats about 1k dps.

Seems fine to me XD.

Infinite targets though...

WreckfulAbandon · October 2020

Firstmep wrote: »

Wait where did you get that number from? Crimson does (at base) 8.2k damage every 8 seconds.

Thats about 1k dps.

Seems fine to me XD.

GIF-o-rly-really-skeptical-yeah-right-GIF.gif?fit=500%2C221&ssl=1

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2020

DTStormfox wrote: »

I agree. It is too powerful.
IMO item sets should have unique bonuses, meaning: either heal, damage or utility but never a combination of two or three of those.

Right, because eg briarhearth and vicious serpent are poster childs of toxic and cheesy itemization...

Wing · October 2020

Solariken wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

2K dps seems to be the metric ZOS is using for proc sets. They appear scale it down as you add secondary effects. That makes Crimson twice as powerful as similar sets like Leeching Plate, Baraha's Curse that do aoe damage and heal you for the damage done. Those sets do ~1K dps.

As for Syvarra being an Apex Set...it is instant and applied directly to the target. Those two conditions are what it makes to superior to something like Pillar of Nirn which does twice much damage but is hobbled a 1s delay and ground-based aoe application. I love it, the set is funding my new found obsession with learning every style motif in the game.

Wait where did you get that number from? Crimson does (at base) 8.2k damage every 8 seconds.

Thats about 1k dps.

Seems fine to me XD.

Infinite targets though...

true but if its crap damage vs 1 its crap vs infinite.

the cooldown is long enough that if your trying to tank a dozen people you might get one or two solid procs off before you buckle.
on top of that if your dealing with ranged combat (and in pvp you do) it is a complete waste of a 5 piece, if your getting poked from a distance, kited, etc. you do nothing, and something like battalion defender would be of far better use.

i admit to being surprised to seeing this thread. as this set:

(2 items) Adds 1487 Armor
(3 items) Adds 1487 Armor
(4 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(5 items) When you block an attack, you deal 4110 Magic Damage
to all enemies within 10 meters of you and heal for 100% of the damage done.
This effect can occur once every 5 seconds

is a set that has been in the game since launch (or shortly there after) and other the inclusion of triggering on block (a non issue) has a nearly identical effect, being less damage but faster, and no 2 sec warning.

its been in the game for ages, and nobody said anything or used it, crimson will be the same soon, as its novelty of a new set wears off.