If Crimson is considered a balanced set

Dunning_Kruger

But even zerglings wear crimson

Bashev

Decimus wrote: »

Would be a shame if they nerf one of the few strong 1vX sets in the game because then what you wind up with is more people running toxic zergling sets (Unleashed, Syvarras, vMA 2H etc etc) and as a result the game gets worse for the outnumbered.


I'll repeat what I said earlier: Crimson (and Defending Warrior) is a good baseline for what a defensive/offensive set should look like. How many people do you see running Vicecanon? Bahraha's Curse?

Other defensive/offensive sets are utter trash and no one runs them over the more powerful pure dmg procs.


There should be more sets like Crimson & Defending Warrior (but with different proc conditions/effects) to provide more build diversity and to boost the survivability of players in the current proc meta, should they choose to slot such sets.

If they balance the damage so it is based on the stats as Engulfing Flames then all procs sets will be fine.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/552726/feedback-all-proc-sets-needs-engulfing-flames-treatment

Decimus

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

But even zerglings wear crimson

And I'm happy if they do, it means they aren't running Unleashed Terror or Syvarra or Way of Fire etc etc instead and my chances of surviving are thus increased.

Bashev wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Would be a shame if they nerf one of the few strong 1vX sets in the game because then what you wind up with is more people running toxic zergling sets (Unleashed, Syvarras, vMA 2H etc etc) and as a result the game gets worse for the outnumbered.


I'll repeat what I said earlier: Crimson (and Defending Warrior) is a good baseline for what a defensive/offensive set should look like. How many people do you see running Vicecanon? Bahraha's Curse?

Other defensive/offensive sets are utter trash and no one runs them over the more powerful pure dmg procs.


There should be more sets like Crimson & Defending Warrior (but with different proc conditions/effects) to provide more build diversity and to boost the survivability of players in the current proc meta, should they choose to slot such sets.

If they balance the damage so it is based on the stats as Engulfing Flames then all procs sets will be fine.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/552726/feedback-all-proc-sets-needs-engulfing-flames-treatment

This would be an ideal solution to proc sets (including Crimson), but I'd be surprised if the game engine can handle all those calculations of what damage a proc set needs to deal.

relentless_turnip

There is actually a 12 man group of wardens all wearing crimson and syvarra on EU Ravenwatch and they are totally unstoppable... They are definetly good players, but due to crimson the more people they fight the more they heal.

I think the aoe element of crimson should definetly be removed. Even one v one it is very strong, but put it against a group as a warden spamming arctic with 40k health and you are totally unstoppable.

Adenoma

Go polar wind and your life is easier for group play. Cross heals are legit.

StaticWave

Waffennacht wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

There are only a few proc sets that are actually hard to proc. Crimson is not one of them. I've use crimson, and I've fought against crimson players. Here are the issues I found with this set:

1) It's OP if you fight near NPCs, such as in IC or on resource guards as the damage done is not halved, thereby healing you for 10k+ per NPC. Some players will take advantage of this and not kill guards/IC monsters to always heal up to full every 8s.

2) It actually does good aoe damage if you decide to use it in your rotation. With malacath and good penetration, you can hit people for 4k-5k crimson proc, which is almost just as much as a low end sub assault. A set that was designed to be defensively good should not be offensively good at the same time.

3) It works super well with tanky classes like warden/necro, and this is my biggest issue with the set. Most stamdens right now are stacking 40k+ HP to use artic blast, which makes them really hard to kill. When they use crimson, it just becomes even more of a dps parse as they refuse to die when at low health. Good stamdens will have no issue going from 20% HP to 60% by block casting artic blast with major mending. Having crimson proccing at low health means they either get an extra 5k heal from the set, or 2 seconds of not being pressured if you decide to avoid the proc. Either way, they are benefiting from this set and it makes no sense that people can defend it.

The only good thing i see about this set is it helps solo players 1vX. But let's be honest, if you rely on a proc set to be able to 1vX, then you aren't really doing yourself a favor .

I don't want it to be nerfed to the ground, but it does need some readjustments, either by reducing the radius to 5 meters, or increasing the cooldown to 10 seconds.

1. This is only relevant in OW; careful about tuning something with only a fraction of gameplay in mind.
2. Far less damage in no CP remember, even with Malacath in no CP penetration is harder to come by, you'll be lucky to hit 3k per target if you hit someone
3. In BGs its not healing for that much. Ive played against it many times in BGs and it seems more like warden being the bigger factor here

Feel like if you relied on this to be a huge factor in a BG today you'll be disappointed.

I mean I have it, ive used it, its good. Ive already said it'll probably become a DoT and HoT; but its not game breaking in BGs.

In BGs where people are always stacking up it will heal for 10k+ per proc. The most I've had it heal me for was 15k. It's no where near gamebreaking as in OW, but it can still do good dmg if you ever decide to use it that way.

Waffennacht

StaticWave wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

There are only a few proc sets that are actually hard to proc. Crimson is not one of them. I've use crimson, and I've fought against crimson players. Here are the issues I found with this set:

1) It's OP if you fight near NPCs, such as in IC or on resource guards as the damage done is not halved, thereby healing you for 10k+ per NPC. Some players will take advantage of this and not kill guards/IC monsters to always heal up to full every 8s.

2) It actually does good aoe damage if you decide to use it in your rotation. With malacath and good penetration, you can hit people for 4k-5k crimson proc, which is almost just as much as a low end sub assault. A set that was designed to be defensively good should not be offensively good at the same time.

3) It works super well with tanky classes like warden/necro, and this is my biggest issue with the set. Most stamdens right now are stacking 40k+ HP to use artic blast, which makes them really hard to kill. When they use crimson, it just becomes even more of a dps parse as they refuse to die when at low health. Good stamdens will have no issue going from 20% HP to 60% by block casting artic blast with major mending. Having crimson proccing at low health means they either get an extra 5k heal from the set, or 2 seconds of not being pressured if you decide to avoid the proc. Either way, they are benefiting from this set and it makes no sense that people can defend it.

The only good thing i see about this set is it helps solo players 1vX. But let's be honest, if you rely on a proc set to be able to 1vX, then you aren't really doing yourself a favor .

I don't want it to be nerfed to the ground, but it does need some readjustments, either by reducing the radius to 5 meters, or increasing the cooldown to 10 seconds.

1. This is only relevant in OW; careful about tuning something with only a fraction of gameplay in mind.
2. Far less damage in no CP remember, even with Malacath in no CP penetration is harder to come by, you'll be lucky to hit 3k per target if you hit someone
3. In BGs its not healing for that much. Ive played against it many times in BGs and it seems more like warden being the bigger factor here

Feel like if you relied on this to be a huge factor in a BG today you'll be disappointed.

I mean I have it, ive used it, its good. Ive already said it'll probably become a DoT and HoT; but its not game breaking in BGs.

In BGs where people are always stacking up it will heal for 10k+ per proc. The most I've had it heal me for was 15k. It's no where near gamebreaking as in OW, but it can still do good dmg if you ever decide to use it that way.

I wouldnt wanna stack on any build right meow, in fact id definitely go with a range build in BGs to avoid a lot of sets.

That being said, with group play back (which I doubt ill ever sign up for group) its definitely way more influential

ccfeeling

Crimson
Defending Warrior
Leeching
Bahraha's Curse

All above sets roughly provide 1k dps and 1k hps but different conditions .
[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

relentless_turnip

ccfeeling wrote: »

Crimson
Defending Warrior
Leeching
Bahraha's Curse

All above sets roughly provide 1k dps and 1k hps but different conditions .
[snip]

That's incorrect... Crimson can give you a totally limitless heal. It heals you for whatever damage it does. Which in PvP is about 3k, but it can do 3k damage to anyone in its radius. This means it can heal you for a near limitless amount if fighting outnumbered or just in a zerg.

Defending this set and calling it L2P is totally laughable as this set avoids the need to L2P... This sets proc condition is "show up".

NeillMcAttack

Heavy armor, combined with procs, malacath, and health scaling heals. Are what make these sets, which in a vacuum seem fine, look so unbalanced. It’s not one thing at the moment it’s a variation of things.

Has anyone checked the price of Syvarra’s scales in guild stores? The good heavy pieces go for 10-20 times more gold than the others! How is that balanced?

relentless_turnip

I think Crimson should only heal the user and only for 1k(in pvp) per enemy in its radius.

At the moment we have groups of wardens just spamming arctic in crimson and being unkillable as crimson is over healing them whilst damaging huge groups of players. It just does too much at the moment IMO.

Decimus

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I think Crimson should only heal the user and only for 1k(in pvp) per enemy in its radius.

At the moment we have groups of wardens just spamming arctic in crimson and being unkillable as crimson is over healing them whilst damaging huge groups of players. It just does too much at the moment IMO.

You are aware that 1k damage is what Unleashed, Syvarra etc each deal per second, right? Crimson also only heals the user already, not sure if you were under the illusion that it heals other nearby friendly players as well.

Besides, there already is a set that heals you for 1k for each enemy hit and furthermore it only has 6 second cooldown, cannot be avoided and applies Concussed (Minor Vulnerability) to targets hit.

This set is called Livewire, and absolutely no one uses it.


Your problem is with warden (and more specifically: max health builds), not with Crimson - which you could easily find out by trying it out on any character that isn't a 40k+ health warden. Good set, but does it make you unkillable? No, far from it.

relentless_turnip

Decimus wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I think Crimson should only heal the user and only for 1k(in pvp) per enemy in its radius.

At the moment we have groups of wardens just spamming arctic in crimson and being unkillable as crimson is over healing them whilst damaging huge groups of players. It just does too much at the moment IMO.

You are aware that 1k damage is what Unleashed, Syvarra etc each deal per second, right? Crimson also only heals the user already, not sure if you were under the illusion that it heals other nearby friendly players as well.

Besides, there already is a set that heals you for 1k for each enemy hit and furthermore it only has 6 second cooldown, cannot be avoided and applies Concussed (Minor Vulnerability) to targets hit.

This set is called Livewire, and absolutely no one uses it.


Your problem is with warden (and more specifically: max health builds), not with Crimson - which you could easily find out by trying it out on any character that isn't a 40k+ health warden. Good set, but does it make you unkillable? No, far from it.

No... it does 8k bleed damage to everyone within the radius and heals you for 100% of damage done. Which means if you are surrounded by lets say 4 opponents it does 4k damage(in pvp) and heals you for 16k(it doesn't double dip because it is a damage based heal). This will occur every 8secs because there are no proc conditions or chances.
See for yourself: https://eso-sets.com/set/crimson-twilight

If you wear deadly this is a 12k tooltip with malacath this is 14k when you take damage. I am very informed and wouldn't knowingly broadcast my opinion with out being so.

My problem specifically is with proc sets and this just happens to be one of the stupidest ones IMO. It becomes more powerful the more surrounded you are. Wardens are incredibly strong, but when they group together in this set up they rival a ball group in terms of damage and survivability. Any class could make good use of this as proc sets allow the user to stack health as they don't need offensive stats. Wardens just do it better than anyone else.

IAmIcehouse

This is hands down the must broken set in OW no-CP pvp. It makes me miss seeing all the hunters venom/sheer venom everywhere.

Not sure if people are defending it because they use and abuse this crap or because they don't get how impactful a 4K burst heal, outside a global cool down is--and this is completely ignoring the fact it can hit multiple targets and heal you back to full.

allan0n

Waffennacht wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

There are only a few proc sets that are actually hard to proc. Crimson is not one of them. I've use crimson, and I've fought against crimson players. Here are the issues I found with this set:

1) It's OP if you fight near NPCs, such as in IC or on resource guards as the damage done is not halved, thereby healing you for 10k+ per NPC. Some players will take advantage of this and not kill guards/IC monsters to always heal up to full every 8s.

2) It actually does good aoe damage if you decide to use it in your rotation. With malacath and good penetration, you can hit people for 4k-5k crimson proc, which is almost just as much as a low end sub assault. A set that was designed to be defensively good should not be offensively good at the same time.

3) It works super well with tanky classes like warden/necro, and this is my biggest issue with the set. Most stamdens right now are stacking 40k+ HP to use artic blast, which makes them really hard to kill. When they use crimson, it just becomes even more of a dps parse as they refuse to die when at low health. Good stamdens will have no issue going from 20% HP to 60% by block casting artic blast with major mending. Having crimson proccing at low health means they either get an extra 5k heal from the set, or 2 seconds of not being pressured if you decide to avoid the proc. Either way, they are benefiting from this set and it makes no sense that people can defend it.

The only good thing i see about this set is it helps solo players 1vX. But let's be honest, if you rely on a proc set to be able to 1vX, then you aren't really doing yourself a favor .

I don't want it to be nerfed to the ground, but it does need some readjustments, either by reducing the radius to 5 meters, or increasing the cooldown to 10 seconds.

1. This is only relevant in OW; careful about tuning something with only a fraction of gameplay in mind.
2. Far less damage in no CP remember, even with Malacath in no CP penetration is harder to come by, you'll be lucky to hit 3k per target if you hit someone
3. In BGs its not healing for that much. Ive played against it many times in BGs and it seems more like warden being the bigger factor here

Feel like if you relied on this to be a huge factor in a BG today you'll be disappointed.

I mean I have it, ive used it, its good. Ive already said it'll probably become a DoT and HoT; but its not game breaking in BGs.

Almost nothing in this game is balanced with no cp/bgs in mind

Waffennacht

allan0n wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

There are only a few proc sets that are actually hard to proc. Crimson is not one of them. I've use crimson, and I've fought against crimson players. Here are the issues I found with this set:

1) It's OP if you fight near NPCs, such as in IC or on resource guards as the damage done is not halved, thereby healing you for 10k+ per NPC. Some players will take advantage of this and not kill guards/IC monsters to always heal up to full every 8s.

2) It actually does good aoe damage if you decide to use it in your rotation. With malacath and good penetration, you can hit people for 4k-5k crimson proc, which is almost just as much as a low end sub assault. A set that was designed to be defensively good should not be offensively good at the same time.

3) It works super well with tanky classes like warden/necro, and this is my biggest issue with the set. Most stamdens right now are stacking 40k+ HP to use artic blast, which makes them really hard to kill. When they use crimson, it just becomes even more of a dps parse as they refuse to die when at low health. Good stamdens will have no issue going from 20% HP to 60% by block casting artic blast with major mending. Having crimson proccing at low health means they either get an extra 5k heal from the set, or 2 seconds of not being pressured if you decide to avoid the proc. Either way, they are benefiting from this set and it makes no sense that people can defend it.

The only good thing i see about this set is it helps solo players 1vX. But let's be honest, if you rely on a proc set to be able to 1vX, then you aren't really doing yourself a favor .

I don't want it to be nerfed to the ground, but it does need some readjustments, either by reducing the radius to 5 meters, or increasing the cooldown to 10 seconds.

1. This is only relevant in OW; careful about tuning something with only a fraction of gameplay in mind.
2. Far less damage in no CP remember, even with Malacath in no CP penetration is harder to come by, you'll be lucky to hit 3k per target if you hit someone
3. In BGs its not healing for that much. Ive played against it many times in BGs and it seems more like warden being the bigger factor here

Feel like if you relied on this to be a huge factor in a BG today you'll be disappointed.

I mean I have it, ive used it, its good. Ive already said it'll probably become a DoT and HoT; but its not game breaking in BGs.

Almost nothing in this game is balanced with no cp/bgs in mind

Not until that lag fest called Cyrodiil is put down

iALEXi

Crimson is one of the most overused sets in NoCP atm.
Proc pops up on a lot of players.

A lot of smallscalers run it, you will almost always see it in Battlegrounds as well.
Not only smallscalers, but also other people.

Fighting a team of 4 in BGs where 3 of them have Crimson and the other one is a healer, ouch. Infinite healing.

Bergzorn

IMO, this set is as much a carry as many other proc sets. Different target audience, but with similar balance problems as the usual offenders.

Met a player the other day who retreated to (for them) hostile flag NPCs every time their Crimson proc activated. That honestly pissed me off a bit.

Waffennacht

Bergzorn wrote: »

IMO, this set is as much a carry as many other proc sets. Different target audience, but with similar balance problems as the usual offenders.

Met a player the other day who retreated to (for them) hostile flag NPCs every time their Crimson proc activated. That honestly pissed me off a bit.

Oh thats a dirty move for true

Kory

I think Crimson is overrated, I saw some opposition zerglings wearing it in Cryodil, and they got melted by a Magsorc.

ivramirez

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Then at the very least the cooldown should be increased to 12 or 15 seconds. It's strong enough with Malacath to be part of a burst combo, AoE, with a (strong!) healing component, so it needs to be adjusted numbers wise or cooldown wise. Please don't let this toxic set go unnerfed for another patch cycle.

A man with a vision here, sign him for a PvP Dev in ESO. The community needs a thinking person like this in the game.

ivramirez

iALEXi wrote: »

Crimson is one of the most overused sets in NoCP atm.
Proc pops up on a lot of players.

A lot of smallscalers run it, you will almost always see it in Battlegrounds as well.
Not only smallscalers, but also other people.

Fighting a team of 4 in BGs where 3 of them have Crimson and the other one is a healer, ouch. Infinite healing.

That knowing that we have friends here in the community that say healing and proc sets are "balanced". LOL

erio

It should either have a smaller heal, or have a smaller cap on targets affected.

relentless_turnip

erio wrote: »

It should either have a smaller heal, or have a smaller cap on targets affected.

This^^ does it even currently have a cap on players. They should just lower the tooltip in general and have a 3-4 person cap.

IAmIcehouse

relentless_turnip wrote: »

erio wrote: »

It should either have a smaller heal, or have a smaller cap on targets affected.

This^^ does it even currently have a cap on players. They should just lower the tooltip in general and have a 3-4 person cap.

A four person cap is still absurd.

It heals for 4K in cyro... Buffed with malacath to 5K. A 20K heal is absurd. Post resistances, that's like 15k

relentless_turnip

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

erio wrote: »

It should either have a smaller heal, or have a smaller cap on targets affected.

This^^ does it even currently have a cap on players. They should just lower the tooltip in general and have a 3-4 person cap.

A four person cap is still absurd.

It heals for 4K in cyro... Buffed with malacath to 5K. A 20K heal is absurd. Post resistances, that's like 15k

I'd be happy if it wasn't aoe at all and only did the damage to one person, I was just trying to suggest a reasonable adjustment. I think if they halved the current tooltip, added a player cap and possibly increased its cooldown that would be a reasonable adjustment.

Firstmep

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I think Crimson should only heal the user and only for 1k(in pvp) per enemy in its radius.

At the moment we have groups of wardens just spamming arctic in crimson and being unkillable as crimson is over healing them whilst damaging huge groups of players. It just does too much at the moment IMO.

You are aware that 1k damage is what Unleashed, Syvarra etc each deal per second, right? Crimson also only heals the user already, not sure if you were under the illusion that it heals other nearby friendly players as well.

Besides, there already is a set that heals you for 1k for each enemy hit and furthermore it only has 6 second cooldown, cannot be avoided and applies Concussed (Minor Vulnerability) to targets hit.

This set is called Livewire, and absolutely no one uses it.


Your problem is with warden (and more specifically: max health builds), not with Crimson - which you could easily find out by trying it out on any character that isn't a 40k+ health warden. Good set, but does it make you unkillable? No, far from it.

No... it does 8k bleed damage to everyone within the radius and heals you for 100% of damage done. Which means if you are surrounded by lets say 4 opponents it does 4k damage(in pvp) and heals you for 16k(it doesn't double dip because it is a damage based heal). This will occur every 8secs because there are no proc conditions or chances.
See for yourself: https://eso-sets.com/set/crimson-twilight

If you wear deadly this is a 12k tooltip with malacath this is 14k when you take damage. I am very informed and wouldn't knowingly broadcast my opinion with out being so.

My problem specifically is with proc sets and this just happens to be one of the stupidest ones IMO. It becomes more powerful the more surrounded you are. Wardens are incredibly strong, but when they group together in this set up they rival a ball group in terms of damage and survivability. Any class could make good use of this as proc sets allow the user to stack health as they don't need offensive stats. Wardens just do it better than anyone else.

Deadly doesnt affect crimson, you must be thinking of blood drinker.

relentless_turnip

Firstmep wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I think Crimson should only heal the user and only for 1k(in pvp) per enemy in its radius.

At the moment we have groups of wardens just spamming arctic in crimson and being unkillable as crimson is over healing them whilst damaging huge groups of players. It just does too much at the moment IMO.

You are aware that 1k damage is what Unleashed, Syvarra etc each deal per second, right? Crimson also only heals the user already, not sure if you were under the illusion that it heals other nearby friendly players as well.

Besides, there already is a set that heals you for 1k for each enemy hit and furthermore it only has 6 second cooldown, cannot be avoided and applies Concussed (Minor Vulnerability) to targets hit.

This set is called Livewire, and absolutely no one uses it.


Your problem is with warden (and more specifically: max health builds), not with Crimson - which you could easily find out by trying it out on any character that isn't a 40k+ health warden. Good set, but does it make you unkillable? No, far from it.

No... it does 8k bleed damage to everyone within the radius and heals you for 100% of damage done. Which means if you are surrounded by lets say 4 opponents it does 4k damage(in pvp) and heals you for 16k(it doesn't double dip because it is a damage based heal). This will occur every 8secs because there are no proc conditions or chances.
See for yourself: https://eso-sets.com/set/crimson-twilight

If you wear deadly this is a 12k tooltip with malacath this is 14k when you take damage. I am very informed and wouldn't knowingly broadcast my opinion with out being so.

My problem specifically is with proc sets and this just happens to be one of the stupidest ones IMO. It becomes more powerful the more surrounded you are. Wardens are incredibly strong, but when they group together in this set up they rival a ball group in terms of damage and survivability. Any class could make good use of this as proc sets allow the user to stack health as they don't need offensive stats. Wardens just do it better than anyone else.

Deadly doesnt affect crimson, you must be thinking of blood drinker.

It does actually 👍

mikey_reach

Yeah the set is not balanced by any means. There another set that basically almost does the same thing in a way more balanced way.

jaws343

The build I saw a lot this weekend was Crimson and Harbinger on a necro with 50k health. It's really hard to avoid a tank wearing those sets when they are blocking a keep entrance or standing on the flags and just never dying and pretty much killing anyone trying to take the keep by holding block. And then they necro ult and transform and are basically nightmares. And 1 alone is bad enough, when you get two or three stacked on a flag you are never taking that keep. They are either going to kill you themselves when you push the flags or they are going to hold you off long enough for the zerg to arrive. And you can't get close and you can't really even attack them at all without killing yourself.