VaranisArano wrote: »I think when you actually play the AD questline, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Certainly, you can see the roots of the 4E Dominion in the 2nd era, but the xenophobes aren't portrayed positively.
If you have the any race any faction option AD is default. A couple of my characters I forgot to change to my preferred faction. When I realized my mistake those characters suffered for it.
VaranisArano wrote: »I think when you actually play the AD questline, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Certainly, you can see the roots of the 4E Dominion in the 2nd era, but the xenophobes aren't portrayed positively.
gatekeeper13 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I think when you actually play the AD questline, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Certainly, you can see the roots of the 4E Dominion in the 2nd era, but the xenophobes aren't portrayed positively.
Actually in Skyrim, which takes place centuries after ESO, the Dominion are pretty racist and the "elven superiority" thing is all over the place.
I am a supporter of the Dominion btw, overlooking their flaws. In the end, it's just a game.
gatekeeper13 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I think when you actually play the AD questline, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Certainly, you can see the roots of the 4E Dominion in the 2nd era, but the xenophobes aren't portrayed positively.
Actually in Skyrim, which takes place centuries after ESO, the Dominion are pretty racist and the "elven superiority" thing is all over the place.
I am a supporter of the Dominion btw, overlooking their flaws. In the end, it's just a game.
YandereGirlfriend wrote: »[*] Pact has Dunmer, who aren't really an archetype but rather are likely the most truly original and well-realized of all of the TES races, for all of the Morrowind fans out there.
GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »Also nords are just as capable of being xenophobic towards elves and the beast races as high elves are.
This, its like saying you would not play an German in an game set in medieval time because of WW2.gatekeeper13 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I think when you actually play the AD questline, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Certainly, you can see the roots of the 4E Dominion in the 2nd era, but the xenophobes aren't portrayed positively.
Actually in Skyrim, which takes place centuries after ESO, the Dominion are pretty racist and the "elven superiority" thing is all over the place.
I am a supporter of the Dominion btw, overlooking their flaws. In the end, it's just a game.
Mythreindeer wrote: »Some of us play High Elves because we know we are superior - and also because we want to do magicka DD.
I give big props to ZOS for including Redguard. Not many games give the option of playing a dark-skinned race reflective of actual humans and the added inclusiveness and diversity is cool.
By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.
If you are referring to the Lord Naarifin, he doesn't qualify to represent Thalmor or thalmor ideology, because he is daedric worshiper. Nothing in Thalmor depictions in TES V hint that Thalmor allows daedra worship.VaranisArano wrote: »By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.
Now, them's fighting words.
Last I recall, it was a 4th Era Thalmor General trying to enact The Culling. The TESV Nords might be front and center in the game about their racism, but I'd like to see your counterexamples for worse Nords than what we know about the 4th Era Thalmor - factual ones, anyway. If this was a roleplay post, on the other hand, well, okay, you can roleplay whatever you like.
If you are referring to the Lord Naarifin, he doesn't qualify to represent Thalmor or thalmor ideology, because he is daedric worshiper. Nothing in Thalmor depictions in TES V hint that Thalmor allows daedra worship.VaranisArano wrote: »By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.
Now, them's fighting words.
Last I recall, it was a 4th Era Thalmor General trying to enact The Culling. The TESV Nords might be front and center in the game about their racism, but I'd like to see your counterexamples for worse Nords than what we know about the 4th Era Thalmor - factual ones, anyway. If this was a roleplay post, on the other hand, well, okay, you can roleplay whatever you like.
I prefer to judge Thalmor for what Thalmor is. For factual doings of Thalmor. Those are a) killing the spies of the enemy (the Blades), and that is the same thing that the Blades were doing for all their history as secret service; b) starting the Great War, and that was the same thing that the imperials and nords were doing for all their history, except Thalmor returns historically elven territories (Cyrod) and creations (WGT) and doesn't remove current inhabitants from these territories (like nords have done with snow elves).
Also, I like what Elenwen once said, since it is very true: "Ulfric, why so hostile? After all, it's not the Thalmor that's burning your farms and killing your sons". Thalmor also has his share of civil war, but at least they are not trying to blame others for it.
VaranisArano wrote: »If you are referring to the Lord Naarifin, he doesn't qualify to represent Thalmor or thalmor ideology, because he is daedric worshiper. Nothing in Thalmor depictions in TES V hint that Thalmor allows daedra worship.VaranisArano wrote: »By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.
Now, them's fighting words.
Last I recall, it was a 4th Era Thalmor General trying to enact The Culling. The TESV Nords might be front and center in the game about their racism, but I'd like to see your counterexamples for worse Nords than what we know about the 4th Era Thalmor - factual ones, anyway. If this was a roleplay post, on the other hand, well, okay, you can roleplay whatever you like.
I prefer to judge Thalmor for what Thalmor is. For factual doings of Thalmor. Those are a) killing the spies of the enemy (the Blades), and that is the same thing that the Blades were doing for all their history as secret service; b) starting the Great War, and that was the same thing that the imperials and nords were doing for all their history, except Thalmor returns historically elven territories (Cyrod) and creations (WGT) and doesn't remove current inhabitants from these territories (like nords have done with snow elves).
Also, I like what Elenwen once said, since it is very true: "Ulfric, why so hostile? After all, it's not the Thalmor that's burning your farms and killing your sons". Thalmor also has his share of civil war, but at least they are not trying to blame others for it.
I'm not willing to argue with you if this is a roleplaying post. Seriously, you can fanboy/fangirl the 4th era Thalmor all you want. But I'm not interested in playing "No True Thalmor" games with you.
From a Lore perspective, I think it's shockingly disengenuous to ignore the context of Elenwen's taunt to the man she tortured, while she's explicitly trying to draw out the Civil War herself. And, you know, the existence of the Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep and Thalmor arrests of Talos worshippers, all of which we see in game.
Those "historically elven territories" haven't been so since the Alessian Rebellion in the 1st Era, which happened because the Ayleids were their own special brand of brutal.
I asked for counterexamples of Skyrim Nords. About the only one I can think of is Ulfric for the Markarth Incident before the game happened...and guess what? "The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact." Oh, hmm, turns out the Thalmor liked his butchery in the Reach just fine...
VaranisArano wrote: »If you are referring to the Lord Naarifin, he doesn't qualify to represent Thalmor or thalmor ideology, because he is daedric worshiper. Nothing in Thalmor depictions in TES V hint that Thalmor allows daedra worship.VaranisArano wrote: »By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.
Now, them's fighting words.
Last I recall, it was a 4th Era Thalmor General trying to enact The Culling. The TESV Nords might be front and center in the game about their racism, but I'd like to see your counterexamples for worse Nords than what we know about the 4th Era Thalmor - factual ones, anyway. If this was a roleplay post, on the other hand, well, okay, you can roleplay whatever you like.
I prefer to judge Thalmor for what Thalmor is. For factual doings of Thalmor. Those are a) killing the spies of the enemy (the Blades), and that is the same thing that the Blades were doing for all their history as secret service; b) starting the Great War, and that was the same thing that the imperials and nords were doing for all their history, except Thalmor returns historically elven territories (Cyrod) and creations (WGT) and doesn't remove current inhabitants from these territories (like nords have done with snow elves).
Also, I like what Elenwen once said, since it is very true: "Ulfric, why so hostile? After all, it's not the Thalmor that's burning your farms and killing your sons". Thalmor also has his share of civil war, but at least they are not trying to blame others for it.
I'm not willing to argue with you if this is a roleplaying post. Seriously, you can fanboy/fangirl the 4th era Thalmor all you want. But I'm not interested in playing "No True Thalmor" games with you.
From a Lore perspective, I think it's shockingly disengenuous to ignore the context of Elenwen's taunt to the man she tortured, while she's explicitly trying to draw out the Civil War herself. And, you know, the existence of the Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep and Thalmor arrests of Talos worshippers, all of which we see in game.
Those "historically elven territories" haven't been so since the Alessian Rebellion in the 1st Era, which happened because the Ayleids were their own special brand of brutal.
I asked for counterexamples of Skyrim Nords. About the only one I can think of is Ulfric for the Markarth Incident before the game happened...and guess what? "The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact." Oh, hmm, turns out the Thalmor liked his butchery in the Reach just fine...
Judging Thalmor for a daedric worshiper in their ranks is the same as judging any other organization for a daedric worshiper, vampire or werewolf in their ranks. Are there any signs that the ideology of Thalmor promotes daedric worship? No, it is the opposite, Thalmor is known for the strict Eight Divines doctrine. High Elves are known as anti-daedra as a whole. We have seen a number of high-ranking Thalmor representatives and there was nothing about daedra in their doings. So, the Culling being sanctioned by the Thalmor as a government should be proven.
From any perspective Elenwen is completely right. No matter what Thalmor did earlier, it was nords choice to wage civil war and it was nords choice to continue this was. Ulfric could swallow his pride. It was his own choice to kill other nords and to accept that other nords would kill his people. No matter what Thalmor wants to be done, Ulfric is the only one to be responsible for all the consequences of the civil war. Yet he has no courage to accept it.
Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep are both good (naming a false Divine (who has no planet like true divines) a Divine is wrong) and lawful (that law is part of the peace agreement).
The time of Alessian Rebellion doesn't mean much, as we have living elves who witnessed it (like Gelebor).
As for the nords from Skyrim, their "Skyrim for the nords" is bad enough. Skyrim has never been a restricted territory (Summerset and Vvardenfell were restricted), so there are a lot of inhabitants of other races already living in Skyrim. Furthermore, Thalmor accepts khajiit in their ranks (as spies, warriors or thieves when needed), while nords of Skyrim do not even allow khajiit to enter the cities.
That is not actually so. I don't think that Thalmor is always correct. If Thalmor is responsible for the death of the High King of Alinor and his family, then I don't approve it. I actually have one high elf character (in role-playing sessions, in Skyrim) who loathes Thalmor for this, because in that reality it was a fact. In lore, though, it is not a fact, so I don't approve it, if it is true, and I don't blame Thalmor, if it is false.VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »If you are referring to the Lord Naarifin, he doesn't qualify to represent Thalmor or thalmor ideology, because he is daedric worshiper. Nothing in Thalmor depictions in TES V hint that Thalmor allows daedra worship.VaranisArano wrote: »By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.
Now, them's fighting words.
Last I recall, it was a 4th Era Thalmor General trying to enact The Culling. The TESV Nords might be front and center in the game about their racism, but I'd like to see your counterexamples for worse Nords than what we know about the 4th Era Thalmor - factual ones, anyway. If this was a roleplay post, on the other hand, well, okay, you can roleplay whatever you like.
I prefer to judge Thalmor for what Thalmor is. For factual doings of Thalmor. Those are a) killing the spies of the enemy (the Blades), and that is the same thing that the Blades were doing for all their history as secret service; b) starting the Great War, and that was the same thing that the imperials and nords were doing for all their history, except Thalmor returns historically elven territories (Cyrod) and creations (WGT) and doesn't remove current inhabitants from these territories (like nords have done with snow elves).
Also, I like what Elenwen once said, since it is very true: "Ulfric, why so hostile? After all, it's not the Thalmor that's burning your farms and killing your sons". Thalmor also has his share of civil war, but at least they are not trying to blame others for it.
I'm not willing to argue with you if this is a roleplaying post. Seriously, you can fanboy/fangirl the 4th era Thalmor all you want. But I'm not interested in playing "No True Thalmor" games with you.
From a Lore perspective, I think it's shockingly disengenuous to ignore the context of Elenwen's taunt to the man she tortured, while she's explicitly trying to draw out the Civil War herself. And, you know, the existence of the Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep and Thalmor arrests of Talos worshippers, all of which we see in game.
Those "historically elven territories" haven't been so since the Alessian Rebellion in the 1st Era, which happened because the Ayleids were their own special brand of brutal.
I asked for counterexamples of Skyrim Nords. About the only one I can think of is Ulfric for the Markarth Incident before the game happened...and guess what? "The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact." Oh, hmm, turns out the Thalmor liked his butchery in the Reach just fine...
Judging Thalmor for a daedric worshiper in their ranks is the same as judging any other organization for a daedric worshiper, vampire or werewolf in their ranks. Are there any signs that the ideology of Thalmor promotes daedric worship? No, it is the opposite, Thalmor is known for the strict Eight Divines doctrine. High Elves are known as anti-daedra as a whole. We have seen a number of high-ranking Thalmor representatives and there was nothing about daedra in their doings. So, the Culling being sanctioned by the Thalmor as a government should be proven.
From any perspective Elenwen is completely right. No matter what Thalmor did earlier, it was nords choice to wage civil war and it was nords choice to continue this was. Ulfric could swallow his pride. It was his own choice to kill other nords and to accept that other nords would kill his people. No matter what Thalmor wants to be done, Ulfric is the only one to be responsible for all the consequences of the civil war. Yet he has no courage to accept it.
Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep are both good (naming a false Divine (who has no planet like true divines) a Divine is wrong) and lawful (that law is part of the peace agreement).
The time of Alessian Rebellion doesn't mean much, as we have living elves who witnessed it (like Gelebor).
As for the nords from Skyrim, their "Skyrim for the nords" is bad enough. Skyrim has never been a restricted territory (Summerset and Vvardenfell were restricted), so there are a lot of inhabitants of other races already living in Skyrim. Furthermore, Thalmor accepts khajiit in their ranks (as spies, warriors or thieves when needed), while nords of Skyrim do not even allow khajiit to enter the cities.
I see that you have decided to argue along the lines that the Thalmor think they are entirely correct in what they do.
Certainly, the Thalmor think so. Everyone thinks they are the hero of their own story, and all that. And on the converse, they are almost certainly the villain of someone else's story.
However, that's exactly the sort of roleplaying I've been trying to avoid by speaking to the lore. Because, I'm sorry, I'm not going to waste my time and energy debating the morality of torturing prisoners for their faith with anyone who's roleplaying that its both good and lawful. A Thalmor might think so, but I'm not interested in roleplaying anymore with a Thalmor apologist.
I'll be honest, I find that your excuses for torture are hitting a little too close to home today for me to be comfortable with continuing to debate this with you.
Have a great day!
That is not actually so. I don't think that Thalmor is always correct. If Thalmor is responsible for the death of the High King of Alinor and his family, then I don't approve it. I actually have one high elf character (in role-playing sessions, in Skyrim) who loathes Thalmor for this, because in that reality it was a fact. In lore, though, it is not a fact, so I don't approve it, if it is true, and I don't blame Thalmor, if it is false.VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »If you are referring to the Lord Naarifin, he doesn't qualify to represent Thalmor or thalmor ideology, because he is daedric worshiper. Nothing in Thalmor depictions in TES V hint that Thalmor allows daedra worship.VaranisArano wrote: »By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.
Now, them's fighting words.
Last I recall, it was a 4th Era Thalmor General trying to enact The Culling. The TESV Nords might be front and center in the game about their racism, but I'd like to see your counterexamples for worse Nords than what we know about the 4th Era Thalmor - factual ones, anyway. If this was a roleplay post, on the other hand, well, okay, you can roleplay whatever you like.
I prefer to judge Thalmor for what Thalmor is. For factual doings of Thalmor. Those are a) killing the spies of the enemy (the Blades), and that is the same thing that the Blades were doing for all their history as secret service; b) starting the Great War, and that was the same thing that the imperials and nords were doing for all their history, except Thalmor returns historically elven territories (Cyrod) and creations (WGT) and doesn't remove current inhabitants from these territories (like nords have done with snow elves).
Also, I like what Elenwen once said, since it is very true: "Ulfric, why so hostile? After all, it's not the Thalmor that's burning your farms and killing your sons". Thalmor also has his share of civil war, but at least they are not trying to blame others for it.
I'm not willing to argue with you if this is a roleplaying post. Seriously, you can fanboy/fangirl the 4th era Thalmor all you want. But I'm not interested in playing "No True Thalmor" games with you.
From a Lore perspective, I think it's shockingly disengenuous to ignore the context of Elenwen's taunt to the man she tortured, while she's explicitly trying to draw out the Civil War herself. And, you know, the existence of the Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep and Thalmor arrests of Talos worshippers, all of which we see in game.
Those "historically elven territories" haven't been so since the Alessian Rebellion in the 1st Era, which happened because the Ayleids were their own special brand of brutal.
I asked for counterexamples of Skyrim Nords. About the only one I can think of is Ulfric for the Markarth Incident before the game happened...and guess what? "The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact." Oh, hmm, turns out the Thalmor liked his butchery in the Reach just fine...
Judging Thalmor for a daedric worshiper in their ranks is the same as judging any other organization for a daedric worshiper, vampire or werewolf in their ranks. Are there any signs that the ideology of Thalmor promotes daedric worship? No, it is the opposite, Thalmor is known for the strict Eight Divines doctrine. High Elves are known as anti-daedra as a whole. We have seen a number of high-ranking Thalmor representatives and there was nothing about daedra in their doings. So, the Culling being sanctioned by the Thalmor as a government should be proven.
From any perspective Elenwen is completely right. No matter what Thalmor did earlier, it was nords choice to wage civil war and it was nords choice to continue this was. Ulfric could swallow his pride. It was his own choice to kill other nords and to accept that other nords would kill his people. No matter what Thalmor wants to be done, Ulfric is the only one to be responsible for all the consequences of the civil war. Yet he has no courage to accept it.
Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep are both good (naming a false Divine (who has no planet like true divines) a Divine is wrong) and lawful (that law is part of the peace agreement).
The time of Alessian Rebellion doesn't mean much, as we have living elves who witnessed it (like Gelebor).
As for the nords from Skyrim, their "Skyrim for the nords" is bad enough. Skyrim has never been a restricted territory (Summerset and Vvardenfell were restricted), so there are a lot of inhabitants of other races already living in Skyrim. Furthermore, Thalmor accepts khajiit in their ranks (as spies, warriors or thieves when needed), while nords of Skyrim do not even allow khajiit to enter the cities.
I see that you have decided to argue along the lines that the Thalmor think they are entirely correct in what they do.
Certainly, the Thalmor think so. Everyone thinks they are the hero of their own story, and all that. And on the converse, they are almost certainly the villain of someone else's story.
However, that's exactly the sort of roleplaying I've been trying to avoid by speaking to the lore. Because, I'm sorry, I'm not going to waste my time and energy debating the morality of torturing prisoners for their faith with anyone who's roleplaying that its both good and lawful. A Thalmor might think so, but I'm not interested in roleplaying anymore with a Thalmor apologist.
I'll be honest, I find that your excuses for torture are hitting a little too close to home today for me to be comfortable with continuing to debate this with you.
Have a great day!
The responsibility for the war is not only from the perspective of Thalmor. It is from the perspective of the story. Ulfric had the power to end the war. He could die to stop the rebellion. Nords could lie that they don't worship Talos (just like the imperials have done, just like Elisif has done). That would end the war against Thalmor wishes. But Ulfric is too full of himself, so he, personally he, chooses war with other nords.
I doubt that you will find a political organization on Tamriel that doesn't use tortures for whatever reason. That's why any reasoning should be in the context of the place and time.