ESO Affiliation discussion

LithiumFear

I've followed the Elder Scrolls since the beginning. When I joined ESO upon release I found myself genuinely shocked when I saw that the Aldmeri Dominion was so popular. So here is my question. How could anyone who has followed the Elderscrolls previous storys and knows it's history want to be in the Aldmeri Dominion? To be more specific why would anyone in eso want to play as a high elf? .... Shoot!!

sarahthes

They (Altmer) do the most damage if you play Magicka. This is an MMO, where min/maxing is above all else including lore for a decent percentage of the game population.

Also, khajiit.

Danikat

There are lots of reasons someone might choose AD, even someone who has played previous TES games.

For a start quite a few people liked the altmer in the older games where they were presented more neutrally and have played one in every TES game. Some people even considered them the better of the two bad choices offered in Skyrim on the basis that it at least keeps the Empire together and allows room to focus on other issues.

Some people chose because someone persuaded them it's the best alliance to join for PvP or because it's what their friends or guild chose and playing with them was more important to them than the games lore. Or because they wanted to play an AD race and didn't have Any Race, Any Alliance.

If I hadn't gotten the pre-order version with Any Race, Any Alliance my main character would have to be AD because I wanted to make her a khajiit like in all the previous games. I don't think it makes sense for the khajiit to be allied with the altmer and it's not a decision I would have made but it wasn't up to me. Fortunately I did get ARAA so I was able to role-play that she left Elseweyr when the Dominion moved in and made a new life for herself in High Rock.

I do have two AD characters, both for role-play reasons. One is my crafter who is an Imperial and a retired soldier who couldn't care less about the current conflict and just wanted to retire somewhere quiet and peaceful, so he chose Summerset. The other is a dunmer sorcerer whose father moved them to Summerset when he was a child to study with the Psijic Order. He still considers himself dunmer first and foremost but he hasn't lived in Morrowind in a very long time and was raised and educated in Summerset so at this point Altmer culture has a bigger impact on them. He doesn't pay much attention to politics but he's certain an elven ruler, even an altmer, would be preferable to a human and thinks it's a shame the dunmer have fallen into a mistaken alliance with the nords. (I think he's wrong, but we've had to agree to disagree.)

VaranisArano

I think when you actually play the AD questline, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Certainly, you can see the roots of the 4E Dominion in the 2nd era, but the xenophobes aren't portrayed positively.

Sylvermynx

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think when you actually play the AD questline, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Certainly, you can see the roots of the 4E Dominion in the 2nd era, but the xenophobes aren't portrayed positively.

Agreed. Actually, I prefer the AD story line to the others. It was.... enthralling.

AcadianPaladin

In the broader context, the AD was a problem in the 4th Era (Skyrim). They were no more obnoxious that a run of the mill Dunmer during the 3rd Era (Morrowind, Oblivion).

I readily admit though that knowing the future threat of the Thalmor does dampen my enthusiasm for the AD even in ESO. That said, my elf will never choose factions when she doesn't have to (never chose between the blue and red coats in Skyrim) and only reluctantly chose the AD in ESO because the game requires a faction to be chosen and they are all three equally unlikable. But alas, neutrality is not totally possible despite roleplaying a primary affiliation as Guild Mage (which does not belong to any of the three big factions).

kargen27

If you have the any race any faction option AD is default. A couple of my characters I forgot to change to my preferred faction. When I realized my mistake those characters suffered for it.

YandereGirlfriend

I think that from a basic archetype and aesthetics point of view, AD checks a lot of the most popular boxes in a way that the other factions do not.

• High Elves are the closest to "ethereal" LoTR-style elves that you'll find in TES. Since the movies came (e.g. from Oblivion and onward) out this is portrayed relentlessly in their aesthetics. Anyone who wants to be Galadriel or Eldrond or who has ever wanted to live in Lothlorien plays High Elf.
• Wood Elves also have LoTR counterparts and anyone who wants to be a Bow/Bow Legolas-like hero goes this route. As do the non-Khajiit sneakthieves which is, as always, a popular playstyle. Unrelatedly, players also seem to like Wood Elf character aesthetics and Green Pact lore in a sort of "lovable psychopath" type of way.
• Cat-people, enough said.

The other factions might have one or two popular archetypes going for them.

• Pact has Nords for all of the Skyrim fans or anyone otherwise into pseudo-Norse iconography and legends.
• Pact has Dunmer, who aren't really an archetype but rather are likely the most truly original and well-realized of all of the TES races, for all of the Morrowind fans out there.
• DC has Bretons, who are basically stand-ins for generic High Fantasy humans and generic Western European medieval culture. This makes them very popular for roleplaying.

Everyone else is far less popular. Orcs are chosen for being the Stamina meta not because people love Orsimer culture. Argonians have never been popular, neither have Redguards (except when they were Stamina meta). People do like Imperials and pseudo-Roman culture/aesthetics but they don't inherently align with any of the factions and players likely just choose the faction who they have the most friends on (likely AD).

kargen27 wrote: »

If you have the any race any faction option AD is default. A couple of my characters I forgot to change to my preferred faction. When I realized my mistake those characters suffered for it.

That is also a strong point that accounts for same nontrivial amount of AD characters. When you've gone through all the trouble of making amazing sliders and realize only afterward that you left it on AD... it's likely staying as AD!

idk

To OP, are we to hold a grudge against the Aldemeri forever?

Further, I do not think any one alliance has significantly more players than the others. Heck, I have a few high elves but only one is actually Aldemeri Dominion.

Kurat

All endgame content favors mag builds and high elf is BiS mag race.

gatekeeper13

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think when you actually play the AD questline, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Certainly, you can see the roots of the 4E Dominion in the 2nd era, but the xenophobes aren't portrayed positively.

Actually in Skyrim, which takes place centuries after ESO, the Dominion are pretty racist and the "elven superiority" thing is all over the place.

I am a supporter of the Dominion btw, overlooking their flaws. In the end, it's just a game.

Sylvermynx

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think when you actually play the AD questline, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Certainly, you can see the roots of the 4E Dominion in the 2nd era, but the xenophobes aren't portrayed positively.

Actually in Skyrim, which takes place centuries after ESO, the Dominion are pretty racist and the "elven superiority" thing is all over the place.

I am a supporter of the Dominion btw, overlooking their flaws. In the end, it's just a game.

True, but then, Varanis is speaking of the portrayal of the xenophobes in the second era - the game world we inhabit in ESO. Yes, 4E AD (the only ones we see though are Thalmor) are.... very obnoxious. But they don't seem that way in ESO.

VaranisArano

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think when you actually play the AD questline, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Certainly, you can see the roots of the 4E Dominion in the 2nd era, but the xenophobes aren't portrayed positively.

Actually in Skyrim, which takes place centuries after ESO, the Dominion are pretty racist and the "elven superiority" thing is all over the place.

I am a supporter of the Dominion btw, overlooking their flaws. In the end, it's just a game.

Yes. Not to spoiler the ESO questlines too heavily, but...

Altmer Society in the 2nd Era has a lot of the xenophobic attitudes that will later combine with nationalism/anti-Empire sentiment to produce the 3rd Era/4th Era Thalmor (distinct from ESO's Thalmor.) We see this especially with the Veiled Heritance, the AD attack on the Hatching Pools in Shadowfen, and the negligence leading to deaths of nebarra in Shimmerene. That being said, the xenophobes are the antagonists of every questline they feature in. So its not as simple as "Look, the Dominion is awful by the 4th Era, so why would any player want to join them?"

Then again, I'm an EP player who plays Dunmer...and those guys are slaveholding jerks in ESO. As you say, its a game.

Aigym_Hlervu

I see we are almost equal in our experience, OP. @VaranisArano, @Danikat and @sarahthes are all right in their opinions - these are the reasons. I will only say that some players like me might have been sticking to their choice made decades ago - this is why they are still playing those Dominion races but have not changed their Alliance due to the reasons mentioned as well as they might think that the Dominion's agenda published by Aicantar of Shimmerene (a Sapiarch and their chief propagandist) is the one that will bring happiness to everyone. It won't. I'm glad that the Ebonheart Pact has the most lucid political goals among the three Alliances - the Tamriel Pact we are trying to build, a sort of Confederation of the equals, will be partially the base of the Septim's Empire of the 3rd Era, and as I think it's the most tolerant political goal among the three Alliances. The Covenant attempting to reinstate the feudalist Reman Empire, as we know it, is doomed to failure - before it's fall the Akaviri rulers of the Empire who came after the Reman Dynasty of the Second Empire had published the Guild Act of 2E 321, in 3E 82 Pelagius II will dismiss the Elder Council, and only those willing to pay great sums will be allowed to resume their seats - it's the beginning of the much more progressive capitalist Empire of commercial companies (like East Empire Company, Imperial Trading Company, Blackwood Company and many other along with numerous commercial guilds like the ones established by players today, in 2E 582), mass media (like The Black Horse Courier), the recently established Imperial Geographical Society, etc., etc., - there is no way back to the obsolete feudalist Reman Empire.

Regarding joining the Dominion or the Covenant. First, many of us forget who started this Three Banners War, who was the aggressor to start the mess, the very reason of it. Yes, that was the current, Second, Daggerfall Covenant, a military alliance formed 16 years ago in 2E 566 with only one purpose - to conquer Cyrodiil, then Tamriel, and bring the rule of their nobility over the continent. The Pact and the Dominion were formed years later both in response to this, but still their goals oppose each other. Secondly, in my comphension, giving us all a choice to play for the Dominion (though the Covenant is only less better - just look at the atrocities they have performed to civilians in the EP solo campaign without any of those Altmeri-like supremacist ideas) is a choice almost like the one the devs of different WW II games give to their players - usually in such games a player can side any party of that war, including the 1933 - 1945 Germany and the militaristic Japan, the political factions who's policy killed 405 thousand Americans, 7 to 9 million Germans, 27 million Soviet people, 40 million Chinese people, etc., etc. with women, children and old men among those numbers. It's only those killed in action - imagine the numbers of wounded. Still, those developers give an option to fight for them, to kill British, Soviets, Americans, etc., there are strategy games that allow even to win the War playing for those factions. And something tells me that there are players who choose those factions because they think it's a new experience for them, they find it cool or say "Hey! It's just a game!". Yes, it's a game. A game representing a certain idea of killing people who let us all live today. Usually the people who give life are called parents - now think it over how do those game options can be viewed. Also, I hope I don't have to remind of the Generalplan Ost and other such things to make some of those players understand the scales of evil defeated 75 years ago. To all those who wish to know what world could have been were that evil victorious, watch the 1982 "Blade Runner" movie - look at how people live there in the parallel 2019. Don't think that movie is about hunting down the rebel replicants, androids, inhumans, etc. - it's the movie about people, not robots, people devided in three groups: those who should work in hell for several years and die, those who use the results of that labor and live in luxury, and those who serve them keeping that system working while "running on the edge of the blade" - balancing between poverty and struggle, and a chance of being moved to the first group.

Now read again attentively the writings of that delusioned Sapiarch Aicantar, and think over the image of the society he and his party try to build. Would you still fight for these ideas in Cyrod? Yes, it's the Second Era, not the 4th, but don't you think that the 4th Era Thalmor could rise centuries earlier, today, in the Second Era, if the Aicantar's ideas won this Three Banners War? To think that the Thalmor ideas of the Second Era are not that bad yet, that this is not the same Dominion (in it's nature) that will rise up later, is a delusion comparable to the one people had in 1933.

Whatever race you are playing there - join the Pact! We need you among our ranks whatever server and campaign you are playing, the Pact must be winning everywhere constantly!
Victory for the Three.

LightYagami

I played Skyrim, Oblivion, and Morrowind before ESO. I enjoy reading Elder Scrolls lore and watching lore videos on YouTube.

In general, I'm not a fan of high elves concerning lore. I never made High Elf as my main. (I have a High Elf alt for fun in ESO.)

Quite a number of players of ESO came from other MMOs and never played any TES games before. They usually don't care too much about lore. High Elves in ESO are excellent magicka users so they prefer High Elves.

Of course some long term TES players may like High Elves in terms of lore, it's their performance.

Danikat

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

[*] Pact has Dunmer, who aren't really an archetype but rather are likely the most truly original and well-realized of all of the TES races, for all of the Morrowind fans out there.

The dunmer don't fit a typical fantasy archetype, but that's not immediately clear to someone unfamiliar with TES. I know of several people who made their first character a dunmer because they like DnD dark elves or some other dark elf variant and then spent a lot of time getting very confused that aside from ears and (sometimes) skin colour the two have almost nothing in common.

One friend of mine never would stop insisting that someone at Bethesda had made a mistake and mixed up wood elves and dark elves. He really could not accept that there's more than one valid way to portray a fictional race.

karthrag_inak

Yes, because "skyrim (the game)" is the be-all, end-all for ES lore.

GrimTheReaper45

I really like highelves.

There the scholars, artists, musicians of tamriel. They want to understand, learn and uncover the secrets or the world. Their arcane. Thinkers and makers. They care about what was before. Philosopher's and scientist.

There are a lot of bad people from every race. There are also a lot of people that seem bad because your placed on the opposing side.

A lot of the test games take place from the point of view where you are helping the empire but the empire could just as easily have been the villains of the games. After centuries of war your enemy get a finds a giant battle mech war machine? That alone could have been the plot of a tes game where Tiber Septim is a villain and the hero is tasked with stopping him.

He also claimed current dominion territory when he won the war. Of course they want revenge and to reclaim there land. When the empire is weak after Obivion that is a perfect time to reclaim there old land and when they win of course they are going to ban anything to do with tiber septim. Thats basically worshipping your villian and saying hes a god.

Also nords are just as capable of being xenophobic towards elves and the beast races as high elves are.

Mythreindeer

Some of us play High Elves because we know we are superior - and also because we want to do magicka DD.

I give big props to ZOS for including Redguard. Not many games give the option of playing a dark-skinned race reflective of actual humans and the added inclusiveness and diversity is cool.

Aigym_Hlervu

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

Also nords are just as capable of being xenophobic towards elves and the beast races as high elves are.

Nords have never made it their state policy and official propaganda. Good and bad people can be found in every society and the game depicts it very well - the OP speaks about the Aldemeri Dominion, Thalmor, as a political entity established due to the objective reasons and performing a certain policy. He's not speaking of High Elves as people. He speaks of the Dominion's nature as a phenomenon and of the quantity of players joining that alliance in spite of it because of incomprehension caused by superficial way of thinking, or the lack of interest at least to try to understand what faction they chose to fight for in Cyrodiil and what goals that faction is trying to achieve, because instead of thinking of it, they think of the High Elves as people and their racial individual features provided by the game, forgetting who drives those people and what course they do it. And I think the OP is absolutely right in his annoyance.

zaria

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think when you actually play the AD questline, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Certainly, you can see the roots of the 4E Dominion in the 2nd era, but the xenophobes aren't portrayed positively.

Actually in Skyrim, which takes place centuries after ESO, the Dominion are pretty racist and the "elven superiority" thing is all over the place.

I am a supporter of the Dominion btw, overlooking their flaws. In the end, it's just a game.

This, its like saying you would not play an German in an game set in medieval time because of WW2.

The veiled heritance is the enemy faction in most of the AD faction quest chain are rasists but they are also isolationist don't want anything to do with Khajiit and Bosmers.
Summerset starts with Ayrenn opening up the main island to outsiders.

Think OP overstates the impact politic in TES 5 Skyrim has on ESO players.
Yes plenty of the Altmers are racists but I probably rank the Dunmer higher because of slavery.

Yukon2112

For me I play a High Elf and a Dark elf it is a game. Before T1 I played through the DC quest line. The ideas did not sit well with me. The EP Was so so just more of a muscle type quest line and ideas.

Danikat

Mythreindeer wrote: »

Some of us play High Elves because we know we are superior - and also because we want to do magicka DD.

I give big props to ZOS for including Redguard. Not many games give the option of playing a dark-skinned race reflective of actual humans and the added inclusiveness and diversity is cool.

To be fair I think that's mainly because most games don't have multiple race options for humans. They usually do have a range of skin colours to choose from.

Olauron

After playing the Elder Scrolls games for about 20 years I say that I am glad that I can choose a good side to play for (AD) and I am not restricted to choosing the lesser evil of the two evil sides (as in TES V: Skyrim).

By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.

VaranisArano

Olauron wrote: »

By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.

Now, them's fighting words.

Last I recall, it was a 4th Era Thalmor General trying to enact The Culling. The TESV Nords might be front and center in the game about their racism, but I'd like to see your counterexamples for worse Nords than what we know about the 4th Era Thalmor - factual ones, anyway. If this was a roleplay post, on the other hand, well, okay, you can roleplay whatever you like.

Olauron

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.

Now, them's fighting words.

Last I recall, it was a 4th Era Thalmor General trying to enact The Culling. The TESV Nords might be front and center in the game about their racism, but I'd like to see your counterexamples for worse Nords than what we know about the 4th Era Thalmor - factual ones, anyway. If this was a roleplay post, on the other hand, well, okay, you can roleplay whatever you like.

If you are referring to the Lord Naarifin, he doesn't qualify to represent Thalmor or thalmor ideology, because he is daedric worshiper. Nothing in Thalmor depictions in TES V hint that Thalmor allows daedra worship.

I prefer to judge Thalmor for what Thalmor is. For factual doings of Thalmor. Those are a) killing the spies of the enemy (the Blades), and that is the same thing that the Blades were doing for all their history as secret service; b) starting the Great War, and that was the same thing that the imperials and nords were doing for all their history, except Thalmor returns historically elven territories (Cyrod) and creations (WGT) and doesn't remove current inhabitants from these territories (like nords have done with snow elves).

Also, I like what Elenwen once said, since it is very true: "Ulfric, why so hostile? After all, it's not the Thalmor that's burning your farms and killing your sons". Thalmor also has his share of civil war, but at least they are not trying to blame others for it.

VaranisArano

Olauron wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.

Now, them's fighting words.

Last I recall, it was a 4th Era Thalmor General trying to enact The Culling. The TESV Nords might be front and center in the game about their racism, but I'd like to see your counterexamples for worse Nords than what we know about the 4th Era Thalmor - factual ones, anyway. If this was a roleplay post, on the other hand, well, okay, you can roleplay whatever you like.

If you are referring to the Lord Naarifin, he doesn't qualify to represent Thalmor or thalmor ideology, because he is daedric worshiper. Nothing in Thalmor depictions in TES V hint that Thalmor allows daedra worship.

I prefer to judge Thalmor for what Thalmor is. For factual doings of Thalmor. Those are a) killing the spies of the enemy (the Blades), and that is the same thing that the Blades were doing for all their history as secret service; b) starting the Great War, and that was the same thing that the imperials and nords were doing for all their history, except Thalmor returns historically elven territories (Cyrod) and creations (WGT) and doesn't remove current inhabitants from these territories (like nords have done with snow elves).

Also, I like what Elenwen once said, since it is very true: "Ulfric, why so hostile? After all, it's not the Thalmor that's burning your farms and killing your sons". Thalmor also has his share of civil war, but at least they are not trying to blame others for it.

I'm not willing to argue with you if this is a roleplaying post. Seriously, you can fanboy/fangirl the 4th era Thalmor all you want. But I'm not interested in playing "No True Thalmor" games with you.


From a Lore perspective, I think it's shockingly disengenuous to ignore the context of Elenwen's taunt to the man she tortured, while she's explicitly trying to draw out the Civil War herself. And, you know, the existence of the Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep and Thalmor arrests of Talos worshippers, all of which we see in game.

Those "historically elven territories" haven't been so since the Alessian Rebellion in the 1st Era, which happened because the Ayleids were their own special brand of brutal.

I asked for counterexamples of Skyrim Nords. About the only one I can think of is Ulfric for the Markarth Incident before the game happened...and guess what? "The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact." Oh, hmm, turns out the Thalmor liked his butchery in the Reach just fine...

Olauron

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.

Now, them's fighting words.

Last I recall, it was a 4th Era Thalmor General trying to enact The Culling. The TESV Nords might be front and center in the game about their racism, but I'd like to see your counterexamples for worse Nords than what we know about the 4th Era Thalmor - factual ones, anyway. If this was a roleplay post, on the other hand, well, okay, you can roleplay whatever you like.

If you are referring to the Lord Naarifin, he doesn't qualify to represent Thalmor or thalmor ideology, because he is daedric worshiper. Nothing in Thalmor depictions in TES V hint that Thalmor allows daedra worship.

I prefer to judge Thalmor for what Thalmor is. For factual doings of Thalmor. Those are a) killing the spies of the enemy (the Blades), and that is the same thing that the Blades were doing for all their history as secret service; b) starting the Great War, and that was the same thing that the imperials and nords were doing for all their history, except Thalmor returns historically elven territories (Cyrod) and creations (WGT) and doesn't remove current inhabitants from these territories (like nords have done with snow elves).

Also, I like what Elenwen once said, since it is very true: "Ulfric, why so hostile? After all, it's not the Thalmor that's burning your farms and killing your sons". Thalmor also has his share of civil war, but at least they are not trying to blame others for it.

I'm not willing to argue with you if this is a roleplaying post. Seriously, you can fanboy/fangirl the 4th era Thalmor all you want. But I'm not interested in playing "No True Thalmor" games with you.


From a Lore perspective, I think it's shockingly disengenuous to ignore the context of Elenwen's taunt to the man she tortured, while she's explicitly trying to draw out the Civil War herself. And, you know, the existence of the Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep and Thalmor arrests of Talos worshippers, all of which we see in game.

Those "historically elven territories" haven't been so since the Alessian Rebellion in the 1st Era, which happened because the Ayleids were their own special brand of brutal.

I asked for counterexamples of Skyrim Nords. About the only one I can think of is Ulfric for the Markarth Incident before the game happened...and guess what? "The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact." Oh, hmm, turns out the Thalmor liked his butchery in the Reach just fine...

Judging Thalmor for a daedric worshiper in their ranks is the same as judging any other organization for a daedric worshiper, vampire or werewolf in their ranks. Are there any signs that the ideology of Thalmor promotes daedric worship? No, it is the opposite, Thalmor is known for the strict Eight Divines doctrine. High Elves are known as anti-daedra as a whole. We have seen a number of high-ranking Thalmor representatives and there was nothing about daedra in their doings. So, the Culling being sanctioned by the Thalmor as a government should be proven.

From any perspective Elenwen is completely right. No matter what Thalmor did earlier, it was nords choice to wage civil war and it was nords choice to continue this was. Ulfric could swallow his pride. It was his own choice to kill other nords and to accept that other nords would kill his people. No matter what Thalmor wants to be done, Ulfric is the only one to be responsible for all the consequences of the civil war. Yet he has no courage to accept it.

Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep are both good (naming a false Divine (who has no planet like true divines) a Divine is wrong) and lawful (that law is part of the peace agreement).

The time of Alessian Rebellion doesn't mean much, as we have living elves who witnessed it (like Gelebor).

As for the nords from Skyrim, their "Skyrim for the nords" is bad enough. Skyrim has never been a restricted territory (Summerset and Vvardenfell were restricted), so there are a lot of inhabitants of other races already living in Skyrim. Furthermore, Thalmor accepts khajiit in their ranks (as spies, warriors or thieves when needed), while nords of Skyrim do not even allow khajiit to enter the cities.

VaranisArano

Olauron wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.

Now, them's fighting words.

Last I recall, it was a 4th Era Thalmor General trying to enact The Culling. The TESV Nords might be front and center in the game about their racism, but I'd like to see your counterexamples for worse Nords than what we know about the 4th Era Thalmor - factual ones, anyway. If this was a roleplay post, on the other hand, well, okay, you can roleplay whatever you like.

If you are referring to the Lord Naarifin, he doesn't qualify to represent Thalmor or thalmor ideology, because he is daedric worshiper. Nothing in Thalmor depictions in TES V hint that Thalmor allows daedra worship.

I prefer to judge Thalmor for what Thalmor is. For factual doings of Thalmor. Those are a) killing the spies of the enemy (the Blades), and that is the same thing that the Blades were doing for all their history as secret service; b) starting the Great War, and that was the same thing that the imperials and nords were doing for all their history, except Thalmor returns historically elven territories (Cyrod) and creations (WGT) and doesn't remove current inhabitants from these territories (like nords have done with snow elves).

Also, I like what Elenwen once said, since it is very true: "Ulfric, why so hostile? After all, it's not the Thalmor that's burning your farms and killing your sons". Thalmor also has his share of civil war, but at least they are not trying to blame others for it.

I'm not willing to argue with you if this is a roleplaying post. Seriously, you can fanboy/fangirl the 4th era Thalmor all you want. But I'm not interested in playing "No True Thalmor" games with you.


From a Lore perspective, I think it's shockingly disengenuous to ignore the context of Elenwen's taunt to the man she tortured, while she's explicitly trying to draw out the Civil War herself. And, you know, the existence of the Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep and Thalmor arrests of Talos worshippers, all of which we see in game.

Those "historically elven territories" haven't been so since the Alessian Rebellion in the 1st Era, which happened because the Ayleids were their own special brand of brutal.

I asked for counterexamples of Skyrim Nords. About the only one I can think of is Ulfric for the Markarth Incident before the game happened...and guess what? "The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact." Oh, hmm, turns out the Thalmor liked his butchery in the Reach just fine...

Judging Thalmor for a daedric worshiper in their ranks is the same as judging any other organization for a daedric worshiper, vampire or werewolf in their ranks. Are there any signs that the ideology of Thalmor promotes daedric worship? No, it is the opposite, Thalmor is known for the strict Eight Divines doctrine. High Elves are known as anti-daedra as a whole. We have seen a number of high-ranking Thalmor representatives and there was nothing about daedra in their doings. So, the Culling being sanctioned by the Thalmor as a government should be proven.

From any perspective Elenwen is completely right. No matter what Thalmor did earlier, it was nords choice to wage civil war and it was nords choice to continue this was. Ulfric could swallow his pride. It was his own choice to kill other nords and to accept that other nords would kill his people. No matter what Thalmor wants to be done, Ulfric is the only one to be responsible for all the consequences of the civil war. Yet he has no courage to accept it.

Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep are both good (naming a false Divine (who has no planet like true divines) a Divine is wrong) and lawful (that law is part of the peace agreement).

The time of Alessian Rebellion doesn't mean much, as we have living elves who witnessed it (like Gelebor).

As for the nords from Skyrim, their "Skyrim for the nords" is bad enough. Skyrim has never been a restricted territory (Summerset and Vvardenfell were restricted), so there are a lot of inhabitants of other races already living in Skyrim. Furthermore, Thalmor accepts khajiit in their ranks (as spies, warriors or thieves when needed), while nords of Skyrim do not even allow khajiit to enter the cities.

I see that you have decided to argue along the lines that the Thalmor think they are entirely correct in what they do.

Certainly, the Thalmor think so. Everyone thinks they are the hero of their own story, and all that. And on the converse, they are almost certainly the villain of someone else's story.

However, that's exactly the sort of roleplaying I've been trying to avoid by speaking to the lore. Because, I'm sorry, I'm not going to waste my time and energy debating the morality of torturing prisoners for their faith with anyone who's roleplaying that its both good and lawful. A Thalmor might think so, but I'm not interested in roleplaying anymore with a Thalmor apologist.

I'll be honest, I find that your excuses for torture are hitting a little too close to home today for me to be comfortable with continuing to debate this with you.

Have a great day!

Olauron

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.

Now, them's fighting words.

Last I recall, it was a 4th Era Thalmor General trying to enact The Culling. The TESV Nords might be front and center in the game about their racism, but I'd like to see your counterexamples for worse Nords than what we know about the 4th Era Thalmor - factual ones, anyway. If this was a roleplay post, on the other hand, well, okay, you can roleplay whatever you like.

If you are referring to the Lord Naarifin, he doesn't qualify to represent Thalmor or thalmor ideology, because he is daedric worshiper. Nothing in Thalmor depictions in TES V hint that Thalmor allows daedra worship.

I prefer to judge Thalmor for what Thalmor is. For factual doings of Thalmor. Those are a) killing the spies of the enemy (the Blades), and that is the same thing that the Blades were doing for all their history as secret service; b) starting the Great War, and that was the same thing that the imperials and nords were doing for all their history, except Thalmor returns historically elven territories (Cyrod) and creations (WGT) and doesn't remove current inhabitants from these territories (like nords have done with snow elves).

Also, I like what Elenwen once said, since it is very true: "Ulfric, why so hostile? After all, it's not the Thalmor that's burning your farms and killing your sons". Thalmor also has his share of civil war, but at least they are not trying to blame others for it.

I'm not willing to argue with you if this is a roleplaying post. Seriously, you can fanboy/fangirl the 4th era Thalmor all you want. But I'm not interested in playing "No True Thalmor" games with you.


From a Lore perspective, I think it's shockingly disengenuous to ignore the context of Elenwen's taunt to the man she tortured, while she's explicitly trying to draw out the Civil War herself. And, you know, the existence of the Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep and Thalmor arrests of Talos worshippers, all of which we see in game.

Those "historically elven territories" haven't been so since the Alessian Rebellion in the 1st Era, which happened because the Ayleids were their own special brand of brutal.

I asked for counterexamples of Skyrim Nords. About the only one I can think of is Ulfric for the Markarth Incident before the game happened...and guess what? "The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact." Oh, hmm, turns out the Thalmor liked his butchery in the Reach just fine...

Judging Thalmor for a daedric worshiper in their ranks is the same as judging any other organization for a daedric worshiper, vampire or werewolf in their ranks. Are there any signs that the ideology of Thalmor promotes daedric worship? No, it is the opposite, Thalmor is known for the strict Eight Divines doctrine. High Elves are known as anti-daedra as a whole. We have seen a number of high-ranking Thalmor representatives and there was nothing about daedra in their doings. So, the Culling being sanctioned by the Thalmor as a government should be proven.

From any perspective Elenwen is completely right. No matter what Thalmor did earlier, it was nords choice to wage civil war and it was nords choice to continue this was. Ulfric could swallow his pride. It was his own choice to kill other nords and to accept that other nords would kill his people. No matter what Thalmor wants to be done, Ulfric is the only one to be responsible for all the consequences of the civil war. Yet he has no courage to accept it.

Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep are both good (naming a false Divine (who has no planet like true divines) a Divine is wrong) and lawful (that law is part of the peace agreement).

The time of Alessian Rebellion doesn't mean much, as we have living elves who witnessed it (like Gelebor).

As for the nords from Skyrim, their "Skyrim for the nords" is bad enough. Skyrim has never been a restricted territory (Summerset and Vvardenfell were restricted), so there are a lot of inhabitants of other races already living in Skyrim. Furthermore, Thalmor accepts khajiit in their ranks (as spies, warriors or thieves when needed), while nords of Skyrim do not even allow khajiit to enter the cities.

I see that you have decided to argue along the lines that the Thalmor think they are entirely correct in what they do.

Certainly, the Thalmor think so. Everyone thinks they are the hero of their own story, and all that. And on the converse, they are almost certainly the villain of someone else's story.

However, that's exactly the sort of roleplaying I've been trying to avoid by speaking to the lore. Because, I'm sorry, I'm not going to waste my time and energy debating the morality of torturing prisoners for their faith with anyone who's roleplaying that its both good and lawful. A Thalmor might think so, but I'm not interested in roleplaying anymore with a Thalmor apologist.

I'll be honest, I find that your excuses for torture are hitting a little too close to home today for me to be comfortable with continuing to debate this with you.

Have a great day!

That is not actually so. I don't think that Thalmor is always correct. If Thalmor is responsible for the death of the High King of Alinor and his family, then I don't approve it. I actually have one high elf character (in role-playing sessions, in Skyrim) who loathes Thalmor for this, because in that reality it was a fact. In lore, though, it is not a fact, so I don't approve it, if it is true, and I don't blame Thalmor, if it is false.

The responsibility for the war is not only from the perspective of Thalmor. It is from the perspective of the story. Ulfric had the power to end the war. He could die to stop the rebellion. Nords could lie that they don't worship Talos (just like the imperials have done, just like Elisif has done). That would end the war against Thalmor wishes. But Ulfric is too full of himself, so he, personally he, chooses war with other nords.

I doubt that you will find a political organization on Tamriel that doesn't use tortures for whatever reason. That's why any reasoning should be in the context of the place and time.

VaranisArano

Olauron wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

By the way, nords in TES V are much worse than 4th era Thalmor.

Now, them's fighting words.

Last I recall, it was a 4th Era Thalmor General trying to enact The Culling. The TESV Nords might be front and center in the game about their racism, but I'd like to see your counterexamples for worse Nords than what we know about the 4th Era Thalmor - factual ones, anyway. If this was a roleplay post, on the other hand, well, okay, you can roleplay whatever you like.

If you are referring to the Lord Naarifin, he doesn't qualify to represent Thalmor or thalmor ideology, because he is daedric worshiper. Nothing in Thalmor depictions in TES V hint that Thalmor allows daedra worship.

I prefer to judge Thalmor for what Thalmor is. For factual doings of Thalmor. Those are a) killing the spies of the enemy (the Blades), and that is the same thing that the Blades were doing for all their history as secret service; b) starting the Great War, and that was the same thing that the imperials and nords were doing for all their history, except Thalmor returns historically elven territories (Cyrod) and creations (WGT) and doesn't remove current inhabitants from these territories (like nords have done with snow elves).

Also, I like what Elenwen once said, since it is very true: "Ulfric, why so hostile? After all, it's not the Thalmor that's burning your farms and killing your sons". Thalmor also has his share of civil war, but at least they are not trying to blame others for it.

I'm not willing to argue with you if this is a roleplaying post. Seriously, you can fanboy/fangirl the 4th era Thalmor all you want. But I'm not interested in playing "No True Thalmor" games with you.


From a Lore perspective, I think it's shockingly disengenuous to ignore the context of Elenwen's taunt to the man she tortured, while she's explicitly trying to draw out the Civil War herself. And, you know, the existence of the Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep and Thalmor arrests of Talos worshippers, all of which we see in game.

Those "historically elven territories" haven't been so since the Alessian Rebellion in the 1st Era, which happened because the Ayleids were their own special brand of brutal.

I asked for counterexamples of Skyrim Nords. About the only one I can think of is Ulfric for the Markarth Incident before the game happened...and guess what? "The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact." Oh, hmm, turns out the Thalmor liked his butchery in the Reach just fine...

Judging Thalmor for a daedric worshiper in their ranks is the same as judging any other organization for a daedric worshiper, vampire or werewolf in their ranks. Are there any signs that the ideology of Thalmor promotes daedric worship? No, it is the opposite, Thalmor is known for the strict Eight Divines doctrine. High Elves are known as anti-daedra as a whole. We have seen a number of high-ranking Thalmor representatives and there was nothing about daedra in their doings. So, the Culling being sanctioned by the Thalmor as a government should be proven.

From any perspective Elenwen is completely right. No matter what Thalmor did earlier, it was nords choice to wage civil war and it was nords choice to continue this was. Ulfric could swallow his pride. It was his own choice to kill other nords and to accept that other nords would kill his people. No matter what Thalmor wants to be done, Ulfric is the only one to be responsible for all the consequences of the civil war. Yet he has no courage to accept it.

Thalmor activities at Northwatch Keep are both good (naming a false Divine (who has no planet like true divines) a Divine is wrong) and lawful (that law is part of the peace agreement).

The time of Alessian Rebellion doesn't mean much, as we have living elves who witnessed it (like Gelebor).

As for the nords from Skyrim, their "Skyrim for the nords" is bad enough. Skyrim has never been a restricted territory (Summerset and Vvardenfell were restricted), so there are a lot of inhabitants of other races already living in Skyrim. Furthermore, Thalmor accepts khajiit in their ranks (as spies, warriors or thieves when needed), while nords of Skyrim do not even allow khajiit to enter the cities.

I see that you have decided to argue along the lines that the Thalmor think they are entirely correct in what they do.

Certainly, the Thalmor think so. Everyone thinks they are the hero of their own story, and all that. And on the converse, they are almost certainly the villain of someone else's story.

However, that's exactly the sort of roleplaying I've been trying to avoid by speaking to the lore. Because, I'm sorry, I'm not going to waste my time and energy debating the morality of torturing prisoners for their faith with anyone who's roleplaying that its both good and lawful. A Thalmor might think so, but I'm not interested in roleplaying anymore with a Thalmor apologist.

I'll be honest, I find that your excuses for torture are hitting a little too close to home today for me to be comfortable with continuing to debate this with you.

Have a great day!

That is not actually so. I don't think that Thalmor is always correct. If Thalmor is responsible for the death of the High King of Alinor and his family, then I don't approve it. I actually have one high elf character (in role-playing sessions, in Skyrim) who loathes Thalmor for this, because in that reality it was a fact. In lore, though, it is not a fact, so I don't approve it, if it is true, and I don't blame Thalmor, if it is false.

The responsibility for the war is not only from the perspective of Thalmor. It is from the perspective of the story. Ulfric had the power to end the war. He could die to stop the rebellion. Nords could lie that they don't worship Talos (just like the imperials have done, just like Elisif has done). That would end the war against Thalmor wishes. But Ulfric is too full of himself, so he, personally he, chooses war with other nords.

I doubt that you will find a political organization on Tamriel that doesn't use tortures for whatever reason. That's why any reasoning should be in the context of the place and time.

I'm going to walk away from any continuing discussion on this topic. As I said, I find the continuing excuses for the acceptability of torture camps - effectively saying "Northwatch isn't that bad in context, the Imperials torture people too for "good and lawful" reasons" - hitting uncomfortably too close to home. So for my own sake, I'm going to go play ESO now and concentrate on something positive instead.

You have a great day yourself!