Khatou wrote: »

https://www.casimages.com/i/200902125236170780.png.html

GG the 2 nd ulti without refill

dude seriously that you think that anything about that picture shows that 2h would be op just shows that you dont know what you are talking about.

How often do people need to tell you that it is an EXECUTE ability, it deals more dmg the lower your hp are. When that Execute hit you you probably had like at max 10% of your hp left for it to hit that high. So you actually only needed like 2k more dmg to actually die.

If that same dude would have hit you with that execute while you had full hp he would pretty sure not have dealt more than 2k dmg.

Just learn the basics of the game already before you complain about stuff from which you apparently just dont know how it works.

Khatou wrote: »

Dude, since when in a game can an execution be more powerful than an ultimate attack ?

That is exactly what i meant when i said you didnt know how it works.

Executioner is not as powerful as an ult.
Execute does very little damage when you have high hp and very high damage when you are really low on hp.
An Ult does high damage regardless of how much hp you have.

So an ult can hit you for 7k+ while youre at full hp while an execute used at that moment would do mby like 2k dmg.
An execute might hit higher than that ult when you are at about 10% hp or less, but at that moment it doesnt even matter because a 14k execute only needs like 3k damage to actually kill you while the rest just is overflow, so the ult would also easily kill you at that point.

Khatou wrote: »

Ok, but for pure archers, having a high health in TESO is very complicated as Zenimax doesn't want a real game for archers, being only equipped with dps sets I only turn around 11k PV, in such a condition, difficult to compete and even less with the current stam bug...

The damage does not depend on how high your hp is, but rather what percentage of it you have left. So when you are at 100% hp it deals low dmg and when you are at 10% hp it deals really high dmg.

Also, do I understand correctly that you only have 11k hp?

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

@Jierdanit

I believe @Khatou does not speak English as a first language and uses translation software on these forums.

@Khatou

I respect your efforts to contribute to the discussion here, but I feel like there is a lot lost in translation. Perhaps you could find a highly knowledgeable player who speaks your first language to bring some of your concerns to. It might help you learn when those concerns, like here, are misplaced.

I think you are right, it is pointless to try to convince him that he is wrong when he doesnt even understand what im saying.

and btw @Khatou since from your screenshots it seems like you are French. There is a french Forum as well, you might rather wanna ask there when youre not able to understand what others say in english.

Xargas13 wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Infectious1X wrote: »

Been hit with 4K cleaves before. Not dizzy’s, cleaves. Dizzy regularly hits that high and it’s expected as it’s a slow move, but an aoe instant spammable? Reverse is also meant to scale harder the less health the opponent has, so it’s not meant to deal it’s full % when in execute range, yet I’ve been hit for 6k the moment I get 50% and still continue to get hit for 6k when even lower. Either two-handed scaling is off, or stam weapon damage is through the gd roof.

Like @pauld1_ESO said, something feels fishy as I’ve also been killed in 3 seconds, yet the death recap shows a min of 5 skills being used. 3 seconds being the time when sub assault goes off, yet get hit by 2 reverses literally instantly? I know it ain’t desync.

Imagine this:

1. Cast sub Assualt
2. Tap dizzy
3. Hold for heavy
4. Dizzy lands
5. Weapon enchant fires
6. Release heavy to land partial heavy
7. Light attack cancel
8. Reverse slice
9. Sub Assualt hits
10. Light attack cancel
11. Reverse slice

Here we see 8 instances of damage from one player. How long does it take to happen? The time from 4 to 11 in roughly 1.5 secs. Dizzy lands near the end of a GCD, about .5 secs later reverse slice lands at the start of a GCD, 1 second later another reverse slice lands at the start of the next GCD. The partial heavy and light attacks are woven in and don't animate, the weapon enchant fires on dizzy's hit, and Sub Assualt is a delayed burst, designed to be well-timed to land the the middle of a damage combo.

This is how the game is supposed to be played. Nothing fishy about it. Practice combos like this and you'll be better at killing other players and defending against such combos yourself.

I think it is the problem, when that burst executed there is almost no chance of survival, especially with healing nerf the receiving end is screwed. Stam classes have it too good here. I see it as a flaw in the design, I never seen a game where you dish out damage without animation, just feels like a WoW private server.

Against that Combo there are numerous pretty easy counterplays.
You could either just block the Inc stuff,
You could try to get Out of their sub or
you could cc them so they cant do their full Combo.

Nothing really hard about that counterplay.

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Xargas13 wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Infectious1X wrote: »

Been hit with 4K cleaves before. Not dizzy’s, cleaves. Dizzy regularly hits that high and it’s expected as it’s a slow move, but an aoe instant spammable? Reverse is also meant to scale harder the less health the opponent has, so it’s not meant to deal it’s full % when in execute range, yet I’ve been hit for 6k the moment I get 50% and still continue to get hit for 6k when even lower. Either two-handed scaling is off, or stam weapon damage is through the gd roof.

Like @pauld1_ESO said, something feels fishy as I’ve also been killed in 3 seconds, yet the death recap shows a min of 5 skills being used. 3 seconds being the time when sub assault goes off, yet get hit by 2 reverses literally instantly? I know it ain’t desync.

Imagine this:

1. Cast sub Assualt
2. Tap dizzy
3. Hold for heavy
4. Dizzy lands
5. Weapon enchant fires
6. Release heavy to land partial heavy
7. Light attack cancel
8. Reverse slice
9. Sub Assualt hits
10. Light attack cancel
11. Reverse slice

Here we see 8 instances of damage from one player. How long does it take to happen? The time from 4 to 11 in roughly 1.5 secs. Dizzy lands near the end of a GCD, about .5 secs later reverse slice lands at the start of a GCD, 1 second later another reverse slice lands at the start of the next GCD. The partial heavy and light attacks are woven in and don't animate, the weapon enchant fires on dizzy's hit, and Sub Assualt is a delayed burst, designed to be well-timed to land the the middle of a damage combo.

This is how the game is supposed to be played. Nothing fishy about it. Practice combos like this and you'll be better at killing other players and defending against such combos yourself.

I think it is the problem, when that burst executed there is almost no chance of survival, especially with healing nerf the receiving end is screwed. Stam classes have it too good here. I see it as a flaw in the design, I never seen a game where you dish out damage without animation, just feels like a WoW private server.

Against that Combo there are numerous pretty easy counterplays.
You could either just block the Inc stuff,
You could try to get Out of their sub or
you could cc them so they cant do their full Combo.

Nothing really hard about that counterplay.

Roll dodge
Kiting

Roll Dodge really is only useful If you manage to Roll without the sub hitting you.
And If youre 1v1 kiting is pretty lame imo.

Execution skills feel too punishing against light armour users who flirt with HP while mitigating with abilities rather than resistances

I mean, I got hit by a 13k crystal frags in a BG the other day. Also got hit by a 9k heavy attack. People seem to be able to make almost anything crazy with the right setup.

DeHei wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Infectious1X wrote: »

Been hit with 4K cleaves before. Not dizzy’s, cleaves. Dizzy regularly hits that high and it’s expected as it’s a slow move, but an aoe instant spammable? Reverse is also meant to scale harder the less health the opponent has, so it’s not meant to deal it’s full % when in execute range, yet I’ve been hit for 6k the moment I get 50% and still continue to get hit for 6k when even lower. Either two-handed scaling is off, or stam weapon damage is through the gd roof.

Like @pauld1_ESO said, something feels fishy as I’ve also been killed in 3 seconds, yet the death recap shows a min of 5 skills being used. 3 seconds being the time when sub assault goes off, yet get hit by 2 reverses literally instantly? I know it ain’t desync.

Imagine this:

1. Cast sub Assualt
2. Tap dizzy
3. Hold for heavy
4. Dizzy lands
5. Weapon enchant fires
6. Release heavy to land partial heavy
7. Light attack cancel
8. Reverse slice
9. Sub Assualt hits
10. Light attack cancel
11. Reverse slice

Here we see 8 instances of damage from one player. How long does it take to happen? The time from 4 to 11 in roughly 1.5 secs. Dizzy lands near the end of a GCD, about .5 secs later reverse slice lands at the start of a GCD, 1 second later another reverse slice lands at the start of the next GCD. The partial heavy and light attacks are woven in and don't animate, the weapon enchant fires on dizzy's hit, and Sub Assualt is a delayed burst, designed to be well-timed to land the the middle of a damage combo.

This is how the game is supposed to be played. Nothing fishy about it. Practice combos like this and you'll be better at killing other players and defending against such combos yourself.

yeah like it happens with a lot of experience or a macro while lag kills the opponent at the end, who is unable to react to anything

Combos like this would be a lot less effective using Macros. You need to be able to control each input for it to be reliable.

Merforum wrote: »

I think the OP is correct 2hand does have much higher execute than other skill lines. 300-400%, Dual wield and bow only have 100% execute & staff/SB/rest don't have any execute. Templar 450% execute seems high too.

Also executioner is the cheapest stam cost of just about all other skills (since it cost less don't need to wait until under 50% just spam it). Might be good to change all the executes to 100-200% and same cost. OP is right, this skill alone accounts for most kills in PVP, all that free damage is more unbalanced than proc sets and snipers.

DW execute is AOE and has additional execute damage via passives,

I would love for my opponent to spam executioner throughout a fight those 1.5k hits are would be fine with me, and

"all that free damage is more unbalanced than proc sets and snipers." I honestly don't even know where to begin with this. NO, simply NO.

Merforum wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

I think the OP is correct 2hand does have much higher execute than other skill lines. 300-400%, Dual wield and bow only have 100% execute & staff/SB/rest don't have any execute. Templar 450% execute seems high too.

Also executioner is the cheapest stam cost of just about all other skills (since it cost less don't need to wait until under 50% just spam it). Might be good to change all the executes to 100-200% and same cost. OP is right, this skill alone accounts for most kills in PVP, all that free damage is more unbalanced than proc sets and snipers.

DW execute is AOE and has additional execute damage via passives,

I would love for my opponent to spam executioner throughout a fight those 1.5k hits are would be fine with me, and

"all that free damage is more unbalanced than proc sets and snipers." I honestly don't even know where to begin with this. NO, simply NO.

Well that is why 2hand has an AOE option that does 300% execute. BTW poison inject is single target so you point is red herring. But the point is, would literally every stam toon in PVP be running 2hand if the execute was 200% instead and the dual wield/bow execute was also 200% (DW might be more viable), and would there be more Mag toons in PVP if destro had a 200% execute.

I actually don't care either way but find it funny all the people who complain about 'balance' don't care when it is something they like.

The Aoe option of the 2h execute is still way worse than the DW execute when it comes to actually killing anyone but the main target, also the dw exec is undodgeable. Poison injection is something entirely different from those 2 since its a dot and not a real direct damage execute. It would be way too strong if youd get hit by a 5k dot tick when you fall low for 1 sec.

I dont think that the higher execute is the main point why most people choose to play 2h on stam chars (imo dw execute is actually better), but the need of rally/fm for most classes and that dizzy is simply the best spammable you can get for the stam specs that have no class spammable (btw that is not because dizzy is op, it isnt, but because all other stam spammables except for mby flurry on some builds are near useless atm).

Mag should get some way to access a universal execute that would be good imo, even though i dont think it should be on the destro line, since atm destro is already too much of a must have for most mag specs.

Stamdk here, I have always used the typical 2h/bow setup for pvp, recently came back and decide to try something new and went for dual wield/bow and I can tell u 2h is a lot better than dual wield, no wonder why everyone uses 2h/bow, 2h/snb setups,they should bring dual wield on par of 2h skill line so its a more viable for pvp

Merforum wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

I think the OP is correct 2hand does have much higher execute than other skill lines. 300-400%, Dual wield and bow only have 100% execute & staff/SB/rest don't have any execute. Templar 450% execute seems high too.

Also executioner is the cheapest stam cost of just about all other skills (since it cost less don't need to wait until under 50% just spam it). Might be good to change all the executes to 100-200% and same cost. OP is right, this skill alone accounts for most kills in PVP, all that free damage is more unbalanced than proc sets and snipers.

DW execute is AOE and has additional execute damage via passives,

I would love for my opponent to spam executioner throughout a fight those 1.5k hits are would be fine with me, and

"all that free damage is more unbalanced than proc sets and snipers." I honestly don't even know where to begin with this. NO, simply NO.

Well that is why 2hand has an AOE option that does 300% execute. BTW poison inject is single target so you point is red herring. But the point is, would literally every stam toon in PVP be running 2hand if the execute was 200% instead and the dual wield/bow execute was also 200% (DW might be more viable), and would there be more Mag toons in PVP if destro had a 200% execute.

I actually don't care either way but find it funny all the people who complain about 'balance' don't care when it is something they like.

The Aoe option of the 2h execute is still way worse than the DW execute when it comes to actually killing anyone but the main target, also the dw exec is undodgeable. Poison injection is something entirely different from those 2 since its a dot and not a real direct damage execute. It would be way too strong if youd get hit by a 5k dot tick when you fall low for 1 sec.

I dont think that the higher execute is the main point why most people choose to play 2h on stam chars (imo dw execute is actually better), but the need of rally/fm for most classes and that dizzy is simply the best spammable you can get for the stam specs that have no class spammable (btw that is not because dizzy is op, it isnt, but because all other stam spammables except for mby flurry on some builds are near useless atm).

Mag should get some way to access a universal execute that would be good imo, even though i dont think it should be on the destro line, since atm destro is already too much of a must have for most mag specs.

Yep DW<2H because Rally/FM is a good skill and source of major brutality. Plenty of classes that have a built-in source of major brutality run DW, and do well. (Warden, Sorc, DK) If DW had a better source of major brutality, it would be just as popular as 2H.

Spin to Win can't be dodge, the AOE component of reverse slice doesn't fire if the main target dodges it. And speaking of red herring, poison injection obviously doesn't belong in this comparison.

Well you all are proving the OPs point that 2hand is better than other skill lines. I actually prefer critical rush and brawler (for solo PVE). There's something for everyone. You are right Spn2Win is a circular AOE so you're still in effect if you don't roll essentially the opposite direction. But sorry I got us off track.

The main point of OP was that Executioner damage is quite high, at 400% I don't think anyone can disagree. Basically as soon as you get someone below 50% health one executioner will kill them. But I wouldn't necessarily Nerf it, just make base damage 25% higher and morphs 100%, 200% execute, and make it cost a bit more. Maybe DW/Bow executes are OK the way they are but it would still be nice if they added execute to Destro.

The execute bonus scales linearly from 50% to 0% health. You only get the full 400% when your target is basically dead already. When your target is at 49% health, the damage bonus is only +8%. Given how low executioner's base damage is, it is worse than most spammables when your target is above 30% health. It only becomes significantly more damaging than most spammables when your target is below 20% health. At that point, many skills are lethal anyways.

Merforum wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

I think the OP is correct 2hand does have much higher execute than other skill lines. 300-400%, Dual wield and bow only have 100% execute & staff/SB/rest don't have any execute. Templar 450% execute seems high too.

Also executioner is the cheapest stam cost of just about all other skills (since it cost less don't need to wait until under 50% just spam it). Might be good to change all the executes to 100-200% and same cost. OP is right, this skill alone accounts for most kills in PVP, all that free damage is more unbalanced than proc sets and snipers.

DW execute is AOE and has additional execute damage via passives,

I would love for my opponent to spam executioner throughout a fight those 1.5k hits are would be fine with me, and

"all that free damage is more unbalanced than proc sets and snipers." I honestly don't even know where to begin with this. NO, simply NO.

Well that is why 2hand has an AOE option that does 300% execute. BTW poison inject is single target so you point is red herring. But the point is, would literally every stam toon in PVP be running 2hand if the execute was 200% instead and the dual wield/bow execute was also 200% (DW might be more viable), and would there be more Mag toons in PVP if destro had a 200% execute.

I actually don't care either way but find it funny all the people who complain about 'balance' don't care when it is something they like.

The Aoe option of the 2h execute is still way worse than the DW execute when it comes to actually killing anyone but the main target, also the dw exec is undodgeable. Poison injection is something entirely different from those 2 since its a dot and not a real direct damage execute. It would be way too strong if youd get hit by a 5k dot tick when you fall low for 1 sec.

I dont think that the higher execute is the main point why most people choose to play 2h on stam chars (imo dw execute is actually better), but the need of rally/fm for most classes and that dizzy is simply the best spammable you can get for the stam specs that have no class spammable (btw that is not because dizzy is op, it isnt, but because all other stam spammables except for mby flurry on some builds are near useless atm).

Mag should get some way to access a universal execute that would be good imo, even though i dont think it should be on the destro line, since atm destro is already too much of a must have for most mag specs.

Yep DW<2H because Rally/FM is a good skill and source of major brutality. Plenty of classes that have a built-in source of major brutality run DW, and do well. (Warden, Sorc, DK) If DW had a better source of major brutality, it would be just as popular as 2H.

Spin to Win can't be dodge, the AOE component of reverse slice doesn't fire if the main target dodges it. And speaking of red herring, poison injection obviously doesn't belong in this comparison.

Well you all are proving the OPs point that 2hand is better than other skill lines. I actually prefer critical rush and brawler (for solo PVE). There's something for everyone. You are right Spn2Win is a circular AOE so you're still in effect if you don't roll essentially the opposite direction. But sorry I got us off track.

The main point of OP was that Executioner damage is quite high, at 400% I don't think anyone can disagree. Basically as soon as you get someone below 50% health one executioner will kill them. But I wouldn't necessarily Nerf it, just make base damage 25% higher and morphs 100%, 200% execute, and make it cost a bit more. Maybe DW/Bow executes are OK the way they are but it would still be nice if they added execute to Destro.

The execute bonus scales linearly from 50% to 0% health. You only get the full 400% when your target is basically dead already. When your target is at 49% health, the damage bonus is only +8%. Given how low executioner's base damage is, it is worse than most spammables when your target is above 30% health. It only becomes significantly more damaging than most spammables when your target is below 20% health. At that point, many skills are lethal anyways.

Yes but the other executes also work that way. And all that means is that at 25% health, executioner does 200% more damage for 2160 stam and the other executes only do 50% more (whirl Bld for 3510 stam). Obviously it wouldn't be used by almost every stam toon unless it was very good. And I just don't like the inconsistent numbers.

Just a reminder that not everything needs to be exactly the same.

Also, do you consider that the undodgeable AoE DW execute already has a ~50% higher base damage, gets 20% extra execute dmg via slaugher passive and another 15% against cc'd opponents?
[numbers taken from naked toon on uesp]

There are other reasons why 2h get's prefered over DW on some builds. To say it's bc of the execute is a bit short shighted.