Weapon "two-handed" too powerful ?

Khatou

I see too many combat reports where only 2 or 3 "attacks of this weapon class were enough to kill a player.


Am I the only one who thought this weapon is far too powerful?
Knowing that there are sets to increase the damage just for this category of weapon, shouldn't the damage of this one be reduced? Mainly the "executioner" attack much too powerful, in my opinion, spam by abundance and only 3 hits,s often happens killed a player.

Moreover, unless I'm mistaken, the stam damages seem much higher than before, no ?

MurderMostFoul

Executioner can't kill in three hits. Period.

Two-Hander is fine, it's dual wield that needs a buff.

rumple9

2h do a lot of damage, but the attacks are very slow and clunky so it all balances out in the end

pauld1_ESO

The problem is I am repeatedly killed by the same person with multiple dizzying swings where I know there is absolutely no way he could have gotten them all off during the time of the fight. Something is fishy about this whole pvp in ESO. Happens far too often.

heng14rwb17_ESO

GET GUD OR GET KILL !

Infectious1X

Been hit with 4K cleaves before. Not dizzy’s, cleaves. Dizzy regularly hits that high and it’s expected as it’s a slow move, but an aoe instant spammable? Reverse is also meant to scale harder the less health the opponent has, so it’s not meant to deal it’s full % when in execute range, yet I’ve been hit for 6k the moment I get 50% and still continue to get hit for 6k when even lower. Either two-handed scaling is off, or stam weapon damage is through the gd roof.

Like @pauld1_ESO said, something feels fishy as I’ve also been killed in 3 seconds, yet the death recap shows a min of 5 skills being used. 3 seconds being the time when sub assault goes off, yet get hit by 2 reverses literally instantly? I know it ain’t desync.

MurderMostFoul

Infectious1X wrote: »

Been hit with 4K cleaves before. Not dizzy’s, cleaves. Dizzy regularly hits that high and it’s expected as it’s a slow move, but an aoe instant spammable? Reverse is also meant to scale harder the less health the opponent has, so it’s not meant to deal it’s full % when in execute range, yet I’ve been hit for 6k the moment I get 50% and still continue to get hit for 6k when even lower. Either two-handed scaling is off, or stam weapon damage is through the gd roof.

Like @pauld1_ESO said, something feels fishy as I’ve also been killed in 3 seconds, yet the death recap shows a min of 5 skills being used. 3 seconds being the time when sub assault goes off, yet get hit by 2 reverses literally instantly? I know it ain’t desync.

Imagine this:

1. Cast sub Assualt
2. Tap dizzy
3. Hold for heavy
4. Dizzy lands
5. Weapon enchant fires
6. Release heavy to land partial heavy
7. Light attack cancel
8. Reverse slice
9. Sub Assualt hits
10. Light attack cancel
11. Reverse slice

Here we see 8 instances of damage from one player. How long does it take to happen? The time from 4 to 11 in roughly 1.5 secs. Dizzy lands near the end of a GCD, about .5 secs later reverse slice lands at the start of a GCD, 1 second later another reverse slice lands at the start of the next GCD. The partial heavy and light attacks are woven in and don't animate, the weapon enchant fires on dizzy's hit, and Sub Assualt is a delayed burst, designed to be well-timed to land the the middle of a damage combo.

This is how the game is supposed to be played. Nothing fishy about it. Practice combos like this and you'll be better at killing other players and defending against such combos yourself.

pauld1_ESO

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Infectious1X wrote: »

Been hit with 4K cleaves before. Not dizzy’s, cleaves. Dizzy regularly hits that high and it’s expected as it’s a slow move, but an aoe instant spammable? Reverse is also meant to scale harder the less health the opponent has, so it’s not meant to deal it’s full % when in execute range, yet I’ve been hit for 6k the moment I get 50% and still continue to get hit for 6k when even lower. Either two-handed scaling is off, or stam weapon damage is through the gd roof.

Like @pauld1_ESO said, something feels fishy as I’ve also been killed in 3 seconds, yet the death recap shows a min of 5 skills being used. 3 seconds being the time when sub assault goes off, yet get hit by 2 reverses literally instantly? I know it ain’t desync.

Imagine this:

1. Cast sub Assualt
2. Tap dizzy
3. Hold for heavy
4. Dizzy lands
5. Weapon enchant fires
6. Release heavy to land partial heavy
7. Light attack cancel
8. Reverse slice
9. Sub Assualt hits
10. Light attack cancel
11. Reverse slice

Here we see 8 instances of damage from one player. How long does it take to happen? The time from 4 to 11 in roughly 1.5 secs. Dizzy lands near the end of a GCD, about .5 secs later reverse slice lands at the start of a GCD, 1 second later another reverse slice lands at the start of the next GCD. The partial heavy and light attacks are woven in and don't animate, the weapon enchant fires on dizzy's hit, and Sub Assualt is a delayed burst, designed to be well-timed to land the the middle of a damage combo.

This is how the game is supposed to be played. Nothing fishy about it. Practice combos like this and you'll be better at killing other players and defending against such combos yourself.

You explained this before and I appreciate that because it helps understand how you can get so many hits off. Makes sense

It's the ones who get 4 of them off in 2 seconds that perplex me.

Infectious1X

@MurderMostFoul Note I said “cleave,” not dizzy. Cleave shouldn’t be doing as much as a normal dizzy. Regardless, there are very few classes who can accomplish this and it seems to be almost solely coming from stam classes, at least, in potentially “one-shotting” people. Other classes, including Magicka specs, can also potentially land just as many spells at once, but because of the 2000 SD to WD difference, it hits like a noodle in comparison.

Whether something fishy is happening or not, with your combo, supposedly a dizzy with weapon enchant into a partial heavy into a light attack is enough to bring someone into reverse execute range. Maybe you’re factoring that the sub hits just before the first reverse, but regardless, that damage is blown way up considering it’s literally 2 skills and an enchant to bring someone that low. I’m also sitting at 26k health and a min of 26k physical resistance mind you, so if this is happening to me, you can imagine what it’s doing to the majority of the playerbase sitting at 20-24k health and much lower resistances. The fact that as Magicka I seem forced to use 5 light weaved spammables before getting a bow proc to deal that kind of instant damage is asinine.

SHOW

Seriously tho, when I hop on my Stam classes it's so mind numbingly easy.

How is this a challenge?
Why is this rewarded?

"but I had to press a button and wait 3 secs to 'earn' my burst..."

Then people act like D swing into a med weave is complex gameplay. C'mon man.

Sorry for being toxic here, truly, but the simple stuff should not hit hard. earn it.

Then again, a-proc-olypse 2.0 ...... maybe they do just want to dumb it down.

Again, apologies for toxicity, it just sucks tho. I just want a complex and challenging game where skill shines.

MurderMostFoul

Infectious1X wrote: »

@MurderMostFoul Note I said “cleave,” not dizzy. Cleave shouldn’t be doing as much as a normal dizzy. Regardless, there are very few classes who can accomplish this and it seems to be almost solely coming from stam classes, at least, in potentially “one-shotting” people. Other classes, including Magicka specs, can also potentially land just as many spells at once, but because of the 2000 SD to WD difference, it hits like a noodle in comparison.

Whether something fishy is happening or not, with your combo, supposedly a dizzy with weapon enchant into a partial heavy into a light attack is enough to bring someone into reverse execute range. Maybe you’re factoring that the sub hits just before the first reverse, but regardless, that damage is blown way up considering it’s literally 2 skills and an enchant to bring someone that low. I’m also sitting at 26k health and a min of 26k physical resistance mind you, so if this is happening to me, you can imagine what it’s doing to the majority of the playerbase sitting at 20-24k health and much lower resistances. The fact that as Magicka I seem forced to use 5 light weaved spammables before getting a bow proc to deal that kind of instant damage is asinine.

I was primarily responding to this portion of your post:

Infectious1X wrote: »

Like @pauld1_ESO said, something feels fishy as I’ve also been killed in 3 seconds, yet the death recap shows a min of 5 skills being used. 3 seconds being the time when sub assault goes off, yet get hit by 2 reverses literally instantly? I know it ain’t desync.

Just to illustrate that a 3 sec death with 5 skills isn't fishy at all.

As far as a 4k cleave, idk, I don't use it so I can't say how unusual that is. But if you ignore everything except damage on your build, I'm sure it is possible. It could also be the result of a debuff (berserker strike/major vulnerability) or it could even have been titanic cleave. But barring one of those special cases, if someone has built for so much damage that they are hitting huge cleaves, then they should be fairly easy to take down.

Commandment

If you don't have any guards, defense, heals, knowledge of when to block/dodge, expect to get punished for it. It's no different than a sorc 2-3 shotting someone that isnt paying attention. Git Gud or get Got.

Infectious1X

@MurderMostFoul You assume they would be easy to take down and they should, but this isn’t always the case. Not every class has instant combos and roll is a massive advantage over the easily telegraphed and slow moving projectile mag skills. Stam can build solely for damage and still be a massive pain to kill because of high passive ms for easy los and high avoidance with roll.

My main point though is that it seems incredibly overkill for any stam class to kill what is essentially a tank in single few second combo when most people have half the resistances and 3-4k less health. This generally isn’t a problem with mag because they have 2k less SD on average. The burst potential is nowhere near the same.

MurderMostFoul

Infectious1X wrote: »

@MurderMostFoul You assume they would be easy to take down and they should, but this isn’t always the case. Not every class has instant combos and roll is a massive advantage over the easily telegraphed and slow moving projectile mag skills. Stam can build solely for damage and still be a massive pain to kill because of high passive ms for easy los and high avoidance with roll.

My main point though is that it seems incredibly overkill for any stam class to kill what is essentially a tank in single few second combo when most people have half the resistances and 3-4k less health. This generally isn’t a problem with mag because they have 2k less SD on average. The burst potential is nowhere near the same.

Mag has built in penetration when running light armor. It's a fair trade for medium's weapon damage boost.

MagDK
Magsorc
Magplar
Magden

All of these classes can do just as well as any stam class. Magcro is weak unless built in a very specific way. And in BGs, stam and mag NB lag behind the rest a bit. But there is no huge advantage for stam over mag in BGs.

SHOW

Static pen is NOT a good trade off vs scaling weapon/spell damage... for many many reasons, as I'm sure u know (heals, brutality + med passives scaling for a 35% return on investment!, and most importantly pen vs %mitigation, etc...)

I don't see u out there in too many mag classes ;P

MurderMostFoul

SHOW wrote: »

Static pen is NOT a good trade off vs scaling weapon/spell damage... for many many reasons, as I'm sure u know (heals, brutality + med passives scaling for a 35% return on investment!, and most importantly pen vs %mitigation, etc...)

I don't see u out there in too many mag classes ;P

Lol, zero at the moment , but mostly just so i can share gear.

I do have a mag sorc, temp, and dk waiting to level. I just need another double xp event.

Khatou

Of course, that doesn't sound like an ultimate :
https://www.casimages.com/i/200817121936601852.png.html

https://www.casimages.com/i/200817122047705828.png.html

MurderMostFoul

Khatou wrote: »

Of course, that doesn't sound like an ultimate :
https://www.casimages.com/i/200817121936601852.png.html

https://www.casimages.com/i/200817122047705828.png.html

Those both lead to the same picture. 10k execute is fine. With average mitigation, yoi would need to be at around 10% health for a hit like that. So you aren't actually even taking the full 10k damage. It probably only took like 3k to kill you at that point.

Dakkx

I think two handed as a whole is fine. There’s definitely a desync with executioner though I regularly get hit though dodge roll by it and I have clips of it... I have also seen the other end of the desync while playing stamblade it regularly causes players to die mid roll and just slide across the floor.

Khatou

but otherwise it's true, you're right, take all this cheater weapon to play PVP because he's got that stam weapon that's allowed to do PVP in this game, we're not allowed to be creative in this game, you're right, forgive me for thinking we're playing an MMORPG, I forgot we're supposed to play an MMORPG like a hardcore FPS...

WastedJoker

I honestly see way too many death recaps with 3/4 dizzying swings included.

MurderMostFoul

WastedJoker wrote: »

I honestly see way too many death recaps with 3/4 dizzying swings included.

Prevalent =/= Over Powered

SpiritofESO

Khatou

@Zenimax bravo, bravo there is more than that now in your PVP, it is that for you the freedom of the builds? there is not a DPS build without this weapon, people abuse this weapon with impunity.

buttaface

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Infectious1X wrote: »

Been hit with 4K cleaves before. Not dizzy’s, cleaves. Dizzy regularly hits that high and it’s expected as it’s a slow move, but an aoe instant spammable? Reverse is also meant to scale harder the less health the opponent has, so it’s not meant to deal it’s full % when in execute range, yet I’ve been hit for 6k the moment I get 50% and still continue to get hit for 6k when even lower. Either two-handed scaling is off, or stam weapon damage is through the gd roof.

Like @pauld1_ESO said, something feels fishy as I’ve also been killed in 3 seconds, yet the death recap shows a min of 5 skills being used. 3 seconds being the time when sub assault goes off, yet get hit by 2 reverses literally instantly? I know it ain’t desync.

Imagine this:

1. Cast sub Assualt
2. Tap dizzy
3. Hold for heavy
4. Dizzy lands
5. Weapon enchant fires
6. Release heavy to land partial heavy
7. Light attack cancel
8. Reverse slice
9. Sub Assualt hits
10. Light attack cancel
11. Reverse slice

Here we see 8 instances of damage from one player. How long does it take to happen? The time from 4 to 11 in roughly 1.5 secs. Dizzy lands near the end of a GCD, about .5 secs later reverse slice lands at the start of a GCD, 1 second later another reverse slice lands at the start of the next GCD. The partial heavy and light attacks are woven in and don't animate, the weapon enchant fires on dizzy's hit, and Sub Assualt is a delayed burst, designed to be well-timed to land the the middle of a damage combo.

This is how the game is supposed to be played. Nothing fishy about it. Practice combos like this and you'll be better at killing other players and defending against such combos yourself.

And very easy to land burst combos such as the above is another on a long list of reasons that ESO is not and will never be a top PvP title.

To the actual topic, if you want 28m range, play a bow or staff. If you want melee dmg, which is always higher than ranged damage in these games, use melee. Choices are choices, tradeoffs are tradeoffs.

gatekeeper13

Only the fact that 80% of 2H users playstyle is spamming Dizzying Swing and Executioner says it all.

olsborg

Dizzy swing / Wreckingblow is a tad too strong imo, yes.

MurderMostFoul

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Only the fact that 80% of 2H users playstyle is spamming Dizzying Swing and Executioner says it all.

If this is all someone is doing, then they will be easily dispatched. If one is having trouble against someone simply spamming dizzy/executioner, it's likely a L2P issue.

gatekeeper13

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Only the fact that 80% of 2H users playstyle is spamming Dizzying Swing and Executioner says it all.

If this is all someone is doing, then they will be easily dispatched. If one is having trouble against someone simply spamming dizzy/executioner, it's likely a L2P issue.

If someone has a L2P issue doesnt change the fact that the skills are OP, which is why so many 2H users spam them.

Plus, it's very annoying to do BGs, fight other players and have another 2-3 of them spamming Swing and executioner on you, while they also hit you with Sub/Assault. You ll get hit eventually.

Khatou

https://www.casimages.com/i/200902125236170780.png.html

GG the 2 nd ulti without refill

MurderMostFoul

Khatou wrote: »

https://www.casimages.com/i/200902125236170780.png.html

GG the 2 nd ulti without refill

You had less than 14k hp when executioner hit you, so it actually doesn't do that much damage. Plus, you had incap's damage multiplier rebuff on you. Nothing in this recap points to executioner being op.